Spinoff: Fate or self-determination

[Thaddeus]

In a different thread there was mention made of that phrase, "Everything happens for a reason." Usually that phrase is trotted out when someone's in the midst of a crisis to help them deal with it.

 

But is it really true?

 

Do you believe that we have only very limited input on our lives, and that generally the paths of our lives are already set and that there are reasons for everything?

 

Or do you believe that there's no central narrative to our lives (other than one we may make up for ourselves), and that we're actually pretty much in control of our own destiny?

 

Which do you believe and why?

[nobody's girl]

I used to believe that the universe guided us and was in control of us to some extent. That there was a greater purpose for whatever was happening and that it would lead to where we should be.

 

Since I've been laid off, rejected for several jobs, tried to change careers and failed, had my purse stolen from my car in broad daylight in the middle of the day, seen others get ahead while I continue to sink, and so on, I've come to the conclusion that there is not greater power (call it the Universe, God, Oz the Great and Terrible, or whatever) and everything in life and all that happens to us is totally random.

 

When you see so many people who are broke and poor and struggling and trying so hard to get ahead yet they're just spinning their wheels, how can you believe that there's actually some benevolent force out there controlling us? It's just not possible (IMO).

[always_searching]

Good morning, Thaddeus.

 

Well, you already know my answer, as I am the person who made the comment you're referencing. LOL, but I do plan on giving further argumentation for my reasoning, just not yet--too much to say, and I have to get ready for class.

 

 

 

Anyway, suffice it to say for now that I never claimed to believe in "fate." Well, at least not in the sense I'm sure you mean it. I'm assuiming you're referring to some kind of occasionalism where we have no control over our lives, but we're merely puppets of some higher power--arguably a sadistic one, since that higher power would also be creating evil, in a sense, by directing our actions toward evil (cause, let's face it: people sin/commit evil). I would be adamantly opposed to such a view, as I believe in an omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipresent, just, and all the other good-nature-attributed God. However, that's not to say that He doesn't "allow" certain things to happen for a greater good. There is no chaos--everything has order. We see it everywhere: in our cellular-makeup, in the solar system, in efficient-causes, etc. If the world were so chaotic and random, then it would be entirely unintelligible--nothing would make any sort of rational sense to us. LOL, and if there weren't some kind of order and stability, think of all the crazy things that could happen: one morning I'd wake up a horse; or there would be no day; or time would reverse, etc. Not to say that the unexpected chaos of such possibilities wouldn't be somewhat amusing, but after awhile it would be depressing as **** to continue existing.

 

God allows bad things to happen, because he is directing our lives toward a greater good--now, I would argue we have free will. I think you need to make an intellectual distinction between "free will" and "chaos." The two are not synonymous. We have free will, but we are naturally directed toward the Good/Happiness/God--this doesn't imply that we are being forced to do anything. Sometimes we make mistakes, clearly; and, yes, sometimes bad things happen to good people, etc. However, one need only look to the universe to find order, and look to themselves to find a desire for happiness. The more mistakes we make, the more attune we become to this latter aspect of happiness. We couldn't recognize and appreciate the good that will better lead us to happiness without some miserable times to push us closer to our desired end.

 

Okay, that's all I have time for right now. LOL, but don't worry: I'll be back.

[2sure]

Everything happens for a reason....generally I translate this to mean that every thing we go through, every process, every relationship, every crisis ....is a lesson to be learned. I do think we repeat these lessons in our life unless we learn them...and only then do we reach a turning point. Ive based a lot on this belief.

 

That being said, I'm beginning to wonder. I feel sometimes like, Hey, I get it, where is my pay off? But then, still...I go back to it with :What am I missing here?

 

As to everything happens for a reason indicating a higher power with a bigger plan for us....I drank the kool aid, so I find some comfort in this. But really? I find it hard to believe my lessons are that important.

[Trialbyfire]

I don't believe in "Fate" but I do believe that most experiences are worthwhile, whether they're positive or negative.

 

Something I've noticed though, is that when I'm not very happy, negative experiences have a stronger impact on me. When I'm happy, most negative experiences are like water off a duck's back. With this in mind, things that I've regretted, have only had short-term impact. In the long-term, I have no regrets.

 

To use an example, the infidelity inflicted on me by my ex-H. There was severe short-term pain and regret, but the long-term positive side to this was that he's continuing to get treatment for his NPD and I'm engaged to an amazing man. Without his infidelity, I'd still be married to him, possibly with children, while he continued to indulge with no knowledge from me. What a horrific thought!

[playlislay]

Listen, the wise man isnt wise from sitting around, for he has experienced a fruitful life.

 

What I am trying to say is, to me, the "reason" is that you will learn a valuable lesson from it.

 

Yes, you may suffer immensely and lose someone that is so special to you, but you WILL learn a valuable lesson from it.

 

 

That is my opinion

[deux ex machina]

In a different thread there was mention made of that phrase, "Everything happens for a reason." Usually that phrase is trotted out when someone's in the midst of a crisis to help them deal with it.

 

But is it really true?

 

Depending on the context, I'm not sure.

 

 

Do you believe that we have only very limited input on our lives, and that generally the paths of our lives are already set and that there are reasons for everything?

 

No.

 

 

Or do you believe that there's no central narrative to our lives (other than one we may make up for ourselves), and that we're actually pretty much in control of our own destiny?

 

 

No.

 

 

Which do you believe and why?

 

I don't believe in either one like that.

 

 

A part of my overall philosophy about life and human nature is based on Taoism, among other things, if that helps (I'm sure it doesn't! ).

[JamesM]

2sure and others have made some excellent comments.

 

Everything happens for a reason.....this does not have to mean that there is a God controlling our lives. This simply means that when things happen to us, then we should look at them as somehow teaching us a lesson or having a purpose in our lives.

 

However, yes, I do believe that there is a purpose. But if there is no God, then who controls the purpose? So I believe a God brings them about for a purpose. If I did not believe in a God, then I would need to say that there is nothing planned in our lives and it is a random collection of events.

[deux ex machina]

...

However, that's not to say that He doesn't "allow" certain things to happen for a greater good. There is no chaos--everything has order. We see it everywhere: in our cellular-makeup, in the solar system, in efficient-causes, etc. If the world were so chaotic and random, then it would be entirely unintelligible--nothing would make any sort of rational sense to us. LOL, and if there weren't some kind of order and stability, think of all the crazy things that could happen: one morning I'd wake up a horse; or there would be no day; or time would reverse, etc. Not to say that the unexpected chaos of such possibilities wouldn't be somewhat amusing, but after awhile it would be depressing as **** to continue existing.

 

God allows bad things to happen, because he is directing our lives toward a greater good--now, I would argue we have free will. I think you need to make an intellectual distinction between "free will" and "chaos."

 

Not getting it.

 

You explained your concept of chaos vs. order - but now you're skipping into this whole distinction between free will and chaos? So...you're saying that free will = order?

 

 

The two are not synonymous. We have free will, but we are naturally directed toward the Good/Happiness/God--this doesn't imply that we are being forced to do anything.

 

But then you said you believe that god allows bad things to happen to people in order to "direct them to a greater good"?

 

 

Sometimes we make mistakes, clearly; and, yes, sometimes bad things happen to good people, etc. However, one need only look to the universe to find order, and look to themselves to find a desire for happiness. The more mistakes we make, the more attune we become to this latter aspect of happiness. We couldn't recognize and appreciate the good that will better lead us to happiness without some miserable times to push us closer to our desired end.

 

Okay, that's all I have time for right now. LOL, but don't worry: I'll be back.

 

 

You need to get your butt back here.

[caramel c]

This has always been an interesting question that I have pondered throughout the years...what I have come up with is:

 

I think what happens is that there is not just one right or wrong way or path. We were all given a free will. When we are faced with a decision, sometimes, it is between something that will lead to our well being or something that will lead us to temptation, against our well being or the well being of others. It doesn't always make sense. Sometimes it is very hard to recognize this concept in our daily lives. Sometimes the decision is between two things that are both good for us, and there is really no lesser choice. Sometimes we are unaware that we are even making certain decisions, as our lives become monotonous in some ways.

 

The pieces of the puzzle are laid out for us by God, but how we put those pieces together by what we choose to do is through our own will. We do not all get the same pieces, obviously. That is why I believe each of us has our own fate.

[always_searching]

Not getting it.

 

You explained your concept of chaos vs. order - but now you're skipping into this whole distinction between free will and chaos? So...you're saying that free will = order?

 

LOL, I'm here, deux ex machina!

 

I made the distinction between free will and chaos not because I think that having free will implies an ordered universe, but because Thaddeus made the suggestion in another thread that chaos implies free will: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2382449#post2382449

 

I'm referring specifically to his comment: "Life is chaotic and disorderly and wonderful . There's no central narrative, there's no script, there's no overriding force (however you wish to define it) that has us dance on some mystical strings."

 

The first part indicates chaos theory while the second is assuming that an ordered universe with an "overriding force" "has us dance on some mystical strings" implying fate/determinism.

 

I think an ordered universe is a given--both ontologically and causally. The issue of free will, however, is a bit tricker. I was a determinist for a number of years, but have just started to come to terms with free will. But, to answer your question: no, I don't think that an ordered universe implies free will. I was just making sure Thaddeus understood the distinction between chaos and free will.

 

 

But then you said you believe that god allows bad things to happen to people in order to "direct them to a greater good"?

 

Being directed toward a greater Good doesn't imply that we are forced/determined to be unified with that Good. Theoretically, people can see the Good, know that it is what we are naturally inclined toward, and still turn away from it. However, it is still difficult for me to intellectually grasp the idea that one can know the Good and, yet, turn away from it. This is why I was a determinist for a number of years: I didn't think it was possible to turn away from the Good. However, with my conversion to Catholicism, I have to acknowledge Hell--a place consisting of those who have willingly turned away from God i.e. the Good. So, you have caught an area that still troubles me: it just doesn't seem possible to know something with certainty, yet deny/turn away from it. But, I suppose one could merely look out into the world and see examples of people who have turned away from the Good. Of course, we couldn't turn away unless we had the free will to do so.

 

So, yeah: you clearly recognize my issue with determinism v. free will. The main point I wanted to make to Thaddeus, however, is that chaos does not imply free will; and, also, that it isn't "irrational" (as he stated on the thread mentioned above) to believe that "everything happens for a reason."

 

I hope that helped clear up my point(s)! If not, I'll be checking back in!

[sweetjasmine]

I don't believe in fate, either. Life is mostly a series of random events and the way we react to them.

 

However, that's not to say that He doesn't "allow" certain things to happen for a greater good.

 

To be honest, I've never, ever understood this argument. I've never been able to reconcile the "God's plan" argument with all the horrors and misery we've seen throughout history, and I think if I were suffering through a great tragedy and someone told me that it was for the greater good, I'd be terribly insulted.

 

LOL, and if there weren't some kind of order and stability, think of all the crazy things that could happen: one morning I'd wake up a horse;

 

When you wake up tomorrow, you will literally not be the same person you are right now.

 

but after awhile it would be depressing as **** to continue existing.

 

Plenty of people find it depressing as **** to continue existing right this minute. What's the difference?

[Trialbyfire]

This is something I don't understand. Why MUST there be a meaning to our lives? Human beings are no better or worse than the average animal, at least if you weigh our lives on the scale of to live or to die. We were conceived due to a chance meeting of a strong sperm and an egg, same as the other mammals.

[sweetjasmine]

This is something I don't understand. Why MUST there be a meaning to our lives? Human beings are no better or worse than the average animal, at least if you weigh our lives on the scale of to live or to die. We were conceived due to a chance meeting of a strong sperm and an egg, same as the other mammals.

 

Because we think too much.

 

I think the meaning of my life is to enjoy the time I have, with the people I love, doing things that make me happy. That's it. Pretty simple. I don't see why it should be more complicated than that.

[Trialbyfire]

Because we think too much.

 

I think the meaning of my life is to enjoy the time I have, with the people I love, doing things that make me happy. That's it. Pretty simple. I don't see why it should be more complicated than that.

I won't disagree with you there! :laugh:

 

IMO, that's a great attitude. We're not worthy!

[deux ex machina]

LOL, I'm here, deux ex machina!

 

Haha, thanks!

 

 

I made the distinction between free will and chaos not because I think that having free will implies an ordered universe, but because Thaddeus made the suggestion in another thread that chaos implies free will: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2382449#post2382449

 

I'm referring specifically to his comment: "Life is chaotic and disorderly and wonderful . There's no central narrative, there's no script, there's no overriding force (however you wish to define it) that has us dance on some mystical strings."

 

The first part indicates chaos theory while the second is assuming that an ordered universe with an "overriding force" "has us dance on some mystical strings" implying fate/determinism.

 

I think an ordered universe is a given--both ontologically and causally. The issue of free will, however, is a bit tricker. I was a determinist for a number of years, but have just started to come to terms with free will. But, to answer your question: no, I don't think that an ordered universe implies free will. I was just making sure Thaddeus understood the distinction between chaos and free will.

 

Ah. Now I get where that came from.

 

 

 

Being directed toward a greater Good doesn't imply that we are forced/determined to be unified with that Good. Theoretically, people can see the Good, know that it is what we are naturally inclined toward, and still turn away from it.

 

I hear you there.

 

I don't believe that man is inherently evil.

 

Although...get a bunch of them together in a mass...and I get nervous. Heh.

 

 

However, it is still difficult for me to intellectually grasp the idea that one can know the Good and, yet, turn away from it. This is why I was a determinist for a number of years: I didn't think it was possible to turn away from the Good. However, with my conversion to Catholicism, I have to acknowledge Hell--a place consisting of those who have willingly turned away from God i.e. the Good. So, you have caught an area that still troubles me: it just doesn't seem possible to know something with certainty, yet deny/turn away from it. But, I suppose one could merely look out into the world and see examples of people who have turned away from the Good. Of course, we couldn't turn away unless we had the free will to do so.

 

I don't believe in hell. Yet I do agree with you in that it is hard, for me it was, and IS, disappointing and makes no sense to see someone "throwing themselves away".

 

Could it be I still have a bit of idealism left? *shocker*

 

Tsk. Must do something about that.

 

I've come to believe much as you - that this stems from a choice. An inner attitude.

 

 

So, yeah: you clearly recognize my issue with determinism v. free will. The main point I wanted to make to Thaddeus, however, is that chaos does not imply free will; and, also, that it isn't "irrational" (as he stated on the thread mentioned above) to believe that "everything happens for a reason."

 

You explained it well. I get where that came from now.

 

 

I hope that helped clear up my point(s)! If not, I'll be checking back in!

 

Thank you for taking the time to clarify!

[always_searching]

I feel sometimes like, Hey, I get it, where is my pay off? But then, still...I go back to it with :What am I missing here?

 

As to everything happens for a reason indicating a higher power with a bigger plan for us....I drank the kool aid, so I find some comfort in this. But really? I find it hard to believe my lessons are that important.

 

I hear you, 2sure! Sometimes it's just like, "Enough, already!" However, now coming from a theological versus philosophical perspective--I meantion the shift, merely because it might not appeal to you if you aren't religous: Only God knows why things happen the way they do. So if you're living a miserable life now, yet still have faith: know that you will be rewarded for enduring the pain and misery of this life in the next.

 

If you aren't religious, I empathize; truly, I do. I just recently converted, so I understand the unintellectual stigma that comes with being religious in this modern age of science. Still, I finally realized that without a loving God, there really isn't a point. Without my faith, my reasoning came down to this (i.e. Aristotelian) notion: there may be order in the universe, but that doesn't mean God cares at all for us--shoot, he may not even know about us. Of course, with this view, there's really no point except to live life well while we're here. This, however, was totally unsatisfying to me; without having a point for suffering, or a God who cares about us: I was miserably unhappy--to the point of suicide. It is only through my faith that I have found life bearable.

 

Moving on to your second point: Yes, I do think our lessons are that important. The God of Christianity (the God I believe in) is a personal God--one who loves all of His creation; so much so, that he sent His only Son to die for us. If your lessons are leading you to the Good/Happiness/God (I'm assuming they did, as you state you "drank the kool aid"), then yes: your lessons are that important.

 

I apologize if my theology here doesn't appeal to your philosophical reasoning--though, ideally, the two coincide. I've just found that it's through faith that I find the most comfort, as reason can easily lead one astray without a foundation in faith. Believe me: I know. I think I went off the charts at one point...

[always_searching]

I don't believe in fate, either. Life is mostly a series of random events and the way we react to them.

 

Random events? So, you don't think there's a purpose to anything? Would you say there is moral weight to our actions? So, we are just in this random and chaotic life, but yet how we deal with certain situations has some moral value? Or are you saying there is no objective value, but merely subjectively satisfying experiences with no moral worth? If you could clairfy your position, please.

 

 

To be honest, I've never, ever understood this argument. I've never been able to reconcile the "God's plan" argument with all the horrors and misery we've seen throughout history, and I think if I were suffering through a great tragedy and someone told me that it was for the greater good, I'd be terribly insulted.

 

Well, you may enjoy Hegel: Hegel believed life was like a play--a narrative, yes, but all tragic and miserable. He was a sort of pantheist who thought that there was no transcendent God, but that God was immanent within all of His Creation. God threw Himself into creation in order to know Himself--the Hegelian God is not omniscient. Anyway, Hegel's God came to know Himself through the most horrific and tragic experiences.

 

Of course, I don't adhere to this view. My point is, there are a number of ways one can understand evil in the world: God is leading us to a greater Good; God is coming to know Himself; (neo-Platonist) matter is the cause of evil, etc.. I am sorry if you are insulted by this, but regardless of one's faith: I still have to contend that there is reason for evil. I don't think anything in life is merely arbitrary.

 

Would I be right in saying that you find evil to be arbitrary i.e. it just exists with no purpose?

 

 

 

When you wake up tomorrow, you will literally not be the same person you are right now.

 

I'm not denying that when I wake up tomorrow I will have aged, experienced things the previous day that could have altered my physical, spiritual, metal, etc. state(s). However, I do deny that that means my incommunicable being has altered, or that I am no longer a person. Now, if I wake up with hooves and horns, or something of that nature: I will be surprised, Ricki (Sorry, random Family Guy quote); and, clearly, I'll have been mistaken in my theory that the universe is not chaotic.

 

 

Plenty of people find it depressing as **** to continue existing right this minute. What's the difference?

 

What's the difference? Well, I'd say the people who find it depressing as **** to continue existing are misinformed about the purpose of existence.

 

Hope this helps.

[always_searching]

This is something I don't understand. Why MUST there be a meaning to our lives? Human beings are no better or worse than the average animal, at least if you weigh our lives on the scale of to live or to die. We were conceived due to a chance meeting of a strong sperm and an egg, same as the other mammals.

 

 

LOL, Trialbyfire. Oh, man...someone has been reading Singer's Ethics--or, if not, you would probably enjoy him a great deal. Though, I'm not recommending him--his conclusions are rather unintelligable and tragic to my way of thinking.

 

So, you're telling me that human life has no more worth than the life of any other animal? Then, am I right to assume that you would have to seriously consider whether to save the life of a human versus a cat, for example, if you only had time to save one? Or, if there was a cat in excruciating pain and a human in the same amount of pain and you only had enough drugs to relieve the pain of one, you would have to debate whether the pain experienced by the cat was more worthwhile than that of the pain experienced by the person?

 

I seriously hope I'm misreading you here, because that would just be ridiculous.

 

Beyond that, I would say that when you can talk art, beauty, metaphysics, math, love, science, politics, religion, etc. with a mere animal, then you may have a valid argument as to why the value of a human (i.e. rational animal) is no greater than the life of an animal.

[sweetjasmine]

Random events? So, you don't think there's a purpose to anything?

 

The purpose is the one we create for ourselves.

 

Would you say there is moral weight to our actions?

 

Yes.

 

So, we are just in this random and chaotic life, but yet how we deal with certain situations has some moral value?

 

Yes. It's a random occurrence if someone's brakes fail, and they slam into my car as they run a red light. Whether I react by running away or calling for help has "moral weight." The brakes didn't fail for a "reason" - I don't believe that there's an all-powerful being controlling something like that. It's a random event, and the way I react to it is what matters.

 

Well, you may enjoy Hegel

 

I'm not a fan of Hegel, either.

 

My point is, there are a number of ways one can understand evil in the world: God is leading us to a greater Good;

 

I don't agree with that at all. The thought makes me sick.

 

I can't look at the deaths of innocent people, torture, destruction, starvation, and horrible violence inflicted on people, especially children, and think that they're being made to suffer and being forced to sacrifice their lives for some sort of vague greater good. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

God is coming to know Himself;

 

That doesn't make any sense to me.

 

(neo-Platonist) matter is the cause of evil, etc..

 

I don't buy that either, at least, if I'm reading you correctly.

 

I don't believe in "good" versus "evil" as lofty concepts, either.

 

I still have to contend that there is reason for evil.

 

There could be any number of reasons why a human would choose to hurt others or be destructive. I just don't buy that there's some general purpose for "evil" existing on earth.

 

I don't think anything in life is merely arbitrary.

 

So if you flip a coin, and it lands heads up, is that arbitrary or was there a reason that it came heads up?

 

Would I be right in saying that you find evil to be arbitrary i.e. it just exists with no purpose?

 

I think people commit evil acts, and there are a whole host of reasons why that may or may not happen.

 

I'm not denying that when I wake up tomorrow I will have aged, experienced things the previous day that could have altered my physical, spiritual, metal, etc. state(s).

 

Well, I meant that your actual physical body will be different. Cells will have died, and your body will have created new ones. The actual composition of your body will have been altered, including your brain.

 

However, I do deny that that means my incommunicable being has altered, or that I am no longer a person.

 

Of course you're still a person. There's no way that there could be enough mutations in all of the cells in your body so that you'd suddenly wake up with hooves and horns. That doesn't mean that there's an all-powerful force or being controlling the entire universe, though.

 

What's the difference? Well, I'd say the people who find it depressing as **** to continue existing are misinformed about the purpose of existence.

 

Are you suggesting that there's One True Purpose of Existence? I believe people find their own purpose for their own lives.

 

I have absolutely no problem with people believing that or with people finding comfort in faith. If certain beliefs make people happy, then more power to them.

 

At the same time, I couldn't look an HIV+ child in the eyes and tell them that they were born with the virus and are going to die from it for the greater good and that if they find it depressing as ****, then they're misinformed about the purpose of existence. The concept is just alien to me.

[Trialbyfire]

LOL, Trialbyfire. Oh, man...someone has been reading Singer's Ethics--or, if not, you would probably enjoy him a great deal. Though, I'm not recommending him--his conclusions are rather unintelligable and tragic to my way of thinking.

 

So, you're telling me that human life has no more worth than the life of any other animal? Then, am I right to assume that you would have to seriously consider whether to save the life of a human versus a cat, for example, if you only had time to save one? Or, if there was a cat in excruciating pain and a human in the same amount of pain and you only had enough drugs to relieve the pain of one, you would have to debate whether the pain experienced by the cat was more worthwhile than that of the pain experienced by the person?

 

I seriously hope I'm misreading you here, because that would just be ridiculous.

 

Beyond that, I would say that when you can talk art, beauty, metaphysics, math, love, science, politics, religion, etc. with a mere animal, then you may have a valid argument as to why the value of a human (i.e. rational animal) is no greater than the life of an animal.

You're welcome to believe that's ridiculous but I don't see my life or other human lives, more important than the cat or dog's life. We're just the top of the food chain and omnivores, so we kill to eat, just like a dog and cat would, if wild.

 

Exactly what's so important about the topics you referenced? They're far less important than having food to eat and a safe place to sleep, whereby food and safety, animals also need. Without food and safety, you die, just like animals. Without art, beauty, metaphysics, math, love, etc., you, animals and this world, will survive and might even thrive.

[always_searching]

You're welcome to believe that's ridiculous but I don't see my life or other human lives, more important than the cat or dog's life. We're just the top of the food chain and omnivores, so we kill to eat, just like a dog and cat would, if wild.

 

Exactly what's so important about the topics you referenced? They're far less important than having food to eat and a safe place to sleep, whereby food and safety, animals also need. Without food and safety, you die, just like animals. Without art, beauty, metaphysics, math, love, etc., you, animals and this world, will survive and might even thrive.

 

Hmmm...well, you would enjoy Singer, Trialbyfire.

 

LOL, but I have to admit that if I'm in a dire situation where my life and some random animal's life depended upon someone to save us, and only one could be saved: I would rather have someone who valued personhood over mere sentient-beings there to save my ass! Course, I'm sure you would too!

 

If you really don't have some basic notion as to what's so important about the topics I've referenced, then I'm not sure how to best go about explaining their importance to you...though, I wonder why you chose a metaphysical thread to comment upon if you find no importance in metaphysics. LOL, and isn't it interesting that you are choosing to communicate via typing--clearly having some notion of grammar and syntax, and doing so by using the internet that was created by the technological advances of human persons? But, those things probably aren't important either...right?

[Trialbyfire]

Hmmm...well, you would enjoy Singer, Trialbyfire.

 

LOL, but I have to admit that if I'm in a dire situation where my life and some random animal's life depended upon someone to save us, and only one could be saved: I would rather have someone who valued personhood over mere sentient-beings there to save my ass! Course, I'm sure you would too!

 

If you really don't have some basic notion as to what's so important about the topics I've referenced, then I'm not sure how to best go about explaining their importance to you...though, I wonder why you chose a metaphysical thread to comment upon if you find no importance in metaphysics. LOL, and isn't it interesting that you are choosing to communicate via typing--clearly having some notion of grammar and syntax, and doing so by using the internet that was created by the technological advances of human persons? But, those things probably aren't important either...right?

How does any of this matter, in a situation of survival? Why does the ability to talk about nothing meaningful, like metaphysics, make human beings that much more valuable to the universe, in its entirety. Give me some staggeringly good reasons like perhaps, human beings are such wonderful entities, that they improve the lives of all other living things, ensuring the Earth is kept immaculately clean and well taken care of, that they're key to the survival of the Earth and the universe.

[Trialbyfire]

To expand on what I'm saying, the things that you list only matter to other human beings and not even to all human beings. Ask an African pygmy if he cares about Christ, and he'll ask "who?". Ask him about the universe and he'll say "what?". Does this mean that he should die before you and I?

 

For that matter, ask a dog what he values in life and he'll probably say "food and water". Ask a cat what he values in life and he'll probably say "food and water". Ask any living thing that you can possibly communicate with or not, and they'll say "food and water". You and I would say two of our base needs are "food and water". So now, what does the rest matter, if no one beyond a few human beings and not even all of them, give a crap about metaphysics or science? So how does that make us so special? That we care about things, no other living thing cares about and not even all of us care about these things?

 

Perhaps it's time to examine why it's so important to feel special, that there's a meaning for our lives where there appears to be no meaning for any other lives.

 

Sperm meet egg. Are you strong enough sperm, to wiggle your way into that egg?

[always_searching]

The purpose is the one we create for ourselves.

 

So, let me get this right: you believe there is moral worth to our actions, but that worth is what we create for ourselves? You're a moral relativist? Or is there an objective value? If so, you sound very much like a Utilitarian.

 

 

 

Yes. It's a random occurrence if someone's brakes fail, and they slam into my car as they run a red light. Whether I react by running away or calling for help has "moral weight." The brakes didn't fail for a "reason" - I don't believe that there's an all-powerful being controlling something like that. It's a random event, and the way I react to it is what matters.

 

Well, I never suggested that God is controling every aspect of our lives--as mentioned earlier, that would make me a determinist. I agree with you that the way we react to a given situation is what matters. We differ in that I believe that there is a purpose to event that leads to our reactions. I don't think God willed the event, but I do believe He is omniscient, and, therefore, knew that it would happen and, yet, did not intervene for (what I would argue) is for a greater Good.

 

 

 

I'm not a fan of Hegel, either.

 

LOL, well, that's good news. Hegel's an interesting character...

 

 

 

I don't agree with that at all. The thought makes me sick.

 

I can't look at the deaths of innocent people, torture, destruction, starvation, and horrible violence inflicted on people, especially children, and think that they're being made to suffer and being forced to sacrifice their lives for some sort of vague greater good. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

It's terrible, yes. Terrible things happen--that much is true. I just think it makes more sense to say that there is an ultimate reason for it than it being merely arbitrary. Isn't it more comforting and rational to say that there is a reason for evil versus it's just there and there is no good that comes from it? I need for there to be a point beyond my own relativistic and subjective experience--a point that may even be beyond my own understanding, else I would have killed myself a long time ago. But if you consider this aspect of beyond our understanding: is it really so strange to say something happens for a reason, yet doesn't make sense? There are certain laws of science that are just true, that don't necessarily make sense--are way over our heads, yet we believe in them as well. Gravity, for example. Or the reasons why our planet's conditions allowed for life to be formed. I say it was God; scientists say it was the big bang and coincidence, but no one fully understands.

 

My point is just because something doesn't make sense to us doesn't mean it isn't true.

 

I don't buy that either, at least, if I'm reading you correctly.

 

Yeah, neo-Platonism is a-whole-nother issue that requires more time to explain than I have right now. Suffice it to say that I doubt you would agree with it, as it does indicate a God and a greater Good i.e. God. To put it in another way: there is a God, everything is eminated from that God and everything returns to that God. Hegel got some of his notions from neo-Platonism, but there are some major differences between his thought and the classical neo-Platonic thought.

 

I don't believe in "good" versus "evil" as lofty concepts, either.

 

LOL, well, I do. Of course, I do believe they are quite apparent within the world, but they exist ontologically (in that realm of "lofty concepts") as well.

 

 

So if you flip a coin, and it lands heads up, is that arbitrary or was there a reason that it came heads up?

 

There is a reason: I put enough force in my flipping that it flipped a certain number of times, gravity pushed down on the coin to such an extent as to force it to land on heads versus tails. Or, prehaps there was a piece of lent on the coin that altered it's movement, causing it to land on heads; maybe the wind blew a certain way as to shift the coin in mid-flip that caused it to land on heads.

 

Of course, I'm not a scientist, but I am trying to suggest that the coin's landing wasn't just this chaotic, random occurance in the sense that there is no reason for it to land on heads versus tails. There is reason for everything, even the most seemingly-arbitrary things.

 

 

Well, I meant that your actual physical body will be different. Cells will have died, and your body will have created new ones. The actual composition of your body will have been altered, including your brain.

 

Of course you're still a person. That doesn't mean that there's an all-powerful force or being controlling the entire universe, though.

 

I agree with you that the physical body will be different. What I was suggesting with the original bit of text that you quoted of mine was that the world is not chaotic--we are not waking up horses, pigs, etc.; but, rather, that there is order in the universe, which you seem to be agreeing to here: "There's no way that there could be enough mutations in all of the cells in your body so that you'd suddenly wake up with hooves and horns." If the world were truly as chaotic as you're suggesting, then it is entirely possible that we could be waking up as anything--person or otherwise.

 

I would argue that the order found in the universe is pretty easily attributed to God, even a pagan philosopher came up with this notion: Aristotle. Take a look at his Metaphysics. He didn't believe in the Christian "creator" God who cares about humanity, but he did believe there must be a (1) first mover, (2) first efficient-cause, etc.. Aquinas later takes this notion and applies it to the Christian God. Regardless, if there is order, it seems to imply a God.

 

 

Are you suggesting that there's One True Purpose of Existence? I believe people find their own purpose for their own lives.

 

I am indeed.

 

I have absolutely no problem with people believing that or with people finding comfort in faith. If certain beliefs make people happy, then more power to them.

 

At the same time, I couldn't look an HIV+ child in the eyes and tell them that they were born with the virus and are going to die from it for the greater good and that if they find it depressing as ****, then they're misinformed about the purpose of existence. The concept is just alien to me.

 

And, you see, I couldn't look that HIV+ child in the eyes and tell them that they were born with the virus and are going to die from it for no reason, that they just had some really **** luck and that if they find it depressing as ****, well, yeah, too bad: cause that's just all there is to it. The concept is just alien to me.