next?

[JaneDoe35]

PWSX3 - thankyou very much for posting on my thread. You have really helped me out today. I am still petrified but hopeful of a good future. To answer your questions......

 

Marriage Counselling - my husband today agreed to go to 'counselling'. I am not thrilled by this as I want the counselling to be 'save the marriage couselling' and he wants it to be 'end the marriage counselling'. We have agreed to just call it 'counselling'.

 

I am not sure counselling will help at all, but it can't get any worse I guess.

 

I have booked an appointment for this Friday. I am honestly scared.

 

I do have so much support but I find myself shutting people out as I cant bear to be in public when I feel I am having a continuous panic attack. I have booked another appointment with my doctor as maybe I need something stronger medication wise. I really don't want to do this but I am not coping at all.

 

My individual counsellor has been away on holidays but will hopefully be back this week. She is very helpful but I am almost embarressed to tell her all that has happened over the last couple of weeks.

[FeelingLonely98]

 

 

Also just wanted to say that I am shocked that so many people are going through this sort of thing. It makes me think I will never love or trust again, that would be a shame as I love love. But right now it just seems so crazy. I know I could 'live' without him but I want us back so badly. But he is gone.

 

Hi JD - Sorry you've gone through so much. Hope you're in a better place now.

My situation seems very much like yours. (stbxw has A - I NEVER saw it coming. Thought we were perfect, she refuses to try and work things out, ETC.) I have reached the resignation that D is inevitable and I'm packing her stuff for her and getting the D papers ready. VERY SAD. But I need to do this.)

 

Anyway, I also wonder if I will EVER trust again. I mean if I had the "perfect" marriage, adored my wife for 16 yrs. (7 married), ... and she did THIS to me - my God, what will the next woman do? How will I ever know if "she" is one that I can trust - or even truly love. Very sobering thoughts for a middle-aged, attractive, well-educated, good & decent man like me.

 

If anyone has any help for JD and I (and others) - please help.

[Logik]

My situation is similar. Here's a thought. My marriage broke down due to lack of communication. She's ending it using the same thing that got us here. Not communicating with me. So, she hasn't seen what the problem was since she's still using the same method that broke us to end us. Of course you will trust again. You just need to find someone who shares the same views of what commitment is. It's all about communication, from the start 'til the rest of your life. I've learnt how important is is now, so my next relationship will benefit from it. Still doesn't make it any easier though, but the thought of it might switch on a light at the end of that cold, dark tunnel.

[JaneDoe35]

Hi JD - Sorry you've gone through so much. Hope you're in a better place now.

My situation seems very much like yours. (stbxw has A - I NEVER saw it coming. Thought we were perfect, she refuses to try and work things out, ETC.) I have reached the resignation that D is inevitable and I'm packing her stuff for her and getting the D papers ready. VERY SAD. But I need to do this.)

 

Anyway, I also wonder if I will EVER trust again. I mean if I had the "perfect" marriage, adored my wife for 16 yrs. (7 married), ... and she did THIS to me - my God, what will the next woman do? How will I ever know if "she" is one that I can trust - or even truly love. Very sobering thoughts for a middle-aged, attractive, well-educated, good & decent man like me.

 

If anyone has any help for JD and I (and others) - please help.

 

FeelingLonely98 - I think the 'shock' has been the hardest thing to deal with. If I had of seen this coming for a few months at least.......maybe I would be coping a little better. But who knows?

 

I have not yet accepted that divorce is inevitable, still stupidly hopeful.

 

Right now I am certain I will never trust another man. I will never give everything again. It hurts me to say that as the feeling of loving and being loved was so beautiful. I took it for granted and now it has gone.

 

I am so sorry that your wife refuses to try, I know how you feel. It is heartbreaking. I never knew what intense emotional pain could feel like till now. Physical pain comes & goes (usually), but this pain is constant.

 

FeelingLonely98 - I think for now we just have to forget about our up in the air futures and just tackle one day at a time. We wont feel like this forever, well I certainly hope not anyway!!! It would not be possible to feel like this & survive.

 

Thankyou

[JaneDoe35]

My situation is similar. Here's a thought. My marriage broke down due to lack of communication. She's ending it using the same thing that got us here. Not communicating with me. So, she hasn't seen what the problem was since she's still using the same method that broke us to end us. Of course you will trust again. You just need to find someone who shares the same views of what commitment is. It's all about communication, from the start 'til the rest of your life. I've learnt how important is is now, so my next relationship will benefit from it. Still doesn't make it any easier though, but the thought of it might switch on a light at the end of that cold, dark tunnel.

 

 

Hey Logik, my Dad said exactly the same thing today. He said my husband didn't speak to me to let me know how he was feeling. Therefore we had no chance to try and solve the problems. And now he is doing the exact same thing during this separation.

[FeelingLonely98]

the 'shock' has been the hardest thing to deal with. If I had of seen this coming for a few months at least.......maybe I would be coping a little better. But who knows?

 

Yes, I feel EXACTLY the same. I NEVER saw it coming. If I had known something was wrong or saw it coming I could probably accept it better. WOW. Just a few days before she dropped the bomb on me I remember talking to a few work acquantances about how wonderful my wife is, how Lucky I am to be married to her, :-( Un-f'ing-believable!!!

 

I have not yet accepted that divorce is inevitable, still stupidly hopeful.

 

I have. I am a few weeks ahead of you - 45 days post drop-the-bomb day. (I hope to stop counting one day.) I still feel I love my 47 yr old stbxw, but I don't want to remain married when she gives me nothing. No MC, no compassion, no respect, out shopping for her apt. (for the stbxw and her 18 yr. old BF to live in - yes you read that correct. Disgusting!)

 

Right now I am certain I will never trust another man. I will never give everything again. It hurts me to say that as the feeling of loving and being loved was so beautiful. I took it for granted and now it has gone.

 

That is what scares me. I really love the loving and giving part of a relationship and I can not see myself ever going that far in a realtionship again. Would I ever give my heart and soul just to be destroyed again? Hmm, Maybe in time... ?

 

I am so sorry that your wife refuses to try, I know how you feel. It is heartbreaking. I never knew what intense emotional pain could feel like till now. Physical pain comes & goes (usually), but this pain is constant.

 

Sorry to you too!! I swear at times this has felt worse than when family members have passed away. Maybe cold and insensitive of me - but I gave my stbxw everything I had in our relationship - save for a few minor character flaws - of which I have eliminated from my life now - not for her but for me.

 

FeelingLonely98 - I think for now we just have to forget about our up in the air futures and just tackle one day at a time. We wont feel like this forever, well I certainly hope not anyway!!! It would not be possible to feel like this & survive.

Thankyou

 

I wish I could go to sleep and wake up 10/13/2010!!! Just press the fast forward button. I am packing stbxw's stuff up and going thru all the special little things (cards, photos, albums, gifts, the WEDDING ALBUM!!)

I am going to pack all of it in her boxes. Am I cold and insensitive to not want any memories of our 16 yr relationship in my house? I son't even want to see her in person it hurts so much. Believe I am going NC as good as anyone.

 

I really think you should not go to MC or even "C" with your hubby unless he gives you indication that he wants to make it work. What an idiot he is. That must be so painful for you. JD you HAVE to work on yourself, OK?!?!? Improve yourself, if he comes back and you guys make it then you are a better person. If not you are still a better person. I am doing this and it is the ONLY thing keeping me going - well, my family (3 sisters and Mom)has been the best support sytem ever.

 

Take care JD - Get better. Let me know you are moving forward - ok? You are a good person - this is not your fault - you can do nothing to "fix" it, time to work on JD.

Edited October 12, 2009 by FeelingLonely98

[PWSX3]

I knew our marriage was in trouble & I knew something needed to be done but I didn't know what to do.

 

It wasn't until after she left emotionally & physically that I finally started to find the help I needed & I felt was the only thing that would help our marriage but like I said she was already done.

 

Funny I wanted so bad to work on our marriage to make it work but now if she came back asking if we could work things out I would have to say; NO!!!!!

[Auroracoladybug]

You guys have made my day with this discussion... I needed some assurance that what I was feeling wasn't all just me...I will always love J and I want him to come back to me...maybe in the future...12 years together, 3 married and headed for divorce...3 months post bomb and I won't just let him come back without actions...but yes I am still wishing for that in the future...PW I really wish I could be a that point but I don't know if I will ever be able to say NO like that to him...I won't be a doormat but I would nearly give him anything...I will try to live my life and move on but I will never stop loving J.

[JaneDoe35]

Have been feeling lower than I ever felt was possible. Lots of drama's with husband & tears. Have wanted to stop living but not take my own life.

 

Individual counselling yesterday - made me feel a little more grounded. I explained to her that my every waking moment is dictated by how the communication with my husband is.

 

She told me to 'listen with the other ear' (the one not next to the phone). Will be attempting that today if we speak.

 

Marriage counselling tomorrow - she is concerned that I will be like a 'lamb to the slaughter'. Husband does not want to work on marriage and I do. She did not tell me not to go but wanted to warn me of how bad it may be.

 

Not sure whether to postpone until I am a little stronger (not sure when that will be).

 

Any thoughts on that??

[Logik]

Think of the worst thing that he could say to you and if you cannot imagine hearing it from him then don't go. Simple. Do what you need to do to stay afloat. When you are stronger, you can deal with more. Deal with you now. MC appointments can be postponed. You don't have to rush. Only you know if you're ready.

 

Don't force anything. Do it in your stride.

[delajoonal]

Right now I feel that I cannot do this.

I even asked my father to 'please fix this, please make 'husband' stop this now'. I was in tears at the time and felt so bad for behaving this way.

I feel so sad and weak. The pain seems to be deepening with each passing day. I don't tell my husband how I feel. Should I?

Just when I feel I am right at the 'bottom', I get even lower. How much further can I go? Today I did not want to live another moment.

My beautiful girl still does not know the real reason Daddy is away more than usual. I am fighting a losing battle in trying to protect her.

I was such a strong person. People came to me with their problems. I cannot fix my own though.

I have no patience. I want it to be next year already. Just want to feel something better than this.

So sorry for this depressing post. I know we all feel like this. Just wish I could see my life without him. Does he not know what he is doing? I was so used to going to him if I was down or had a problem.

Now I cant ask him for help because he is doing this. Keep dreaming about us, wake up and for 10 seconds forget this is happening. So confused and torn about what to do next.

Not that this will help your pain jane...but your words, above...have described MY feelings as well...its awful...and instead of getting better, i feel some days, i can't go on..but i do..and i Pray, and i come here to LS...and i cry another day thru...and insomnia my way thru another nite...

 

i know this is not a pick me response..but sometimes knowing you are not alone in your pain...can be a smidgen of relief:o

 

thinking of you jane and hope you are feeling a bit better:)

[delajoonal]

When you hit bottom is when you decide enough is enough & you start doing something about it. You start taking those baby steps back out of that hole one at a time. You choice to put up boundaries, you start to look at yourself & not the situation, you start to do things for you & your child. You slowly start to realize that I can't let this other person live my life for me & that is when you start to rebuild, start to dig yourself out of that pit.

 

Yes it is VERY hard, yes it takes time, but you didn't get in this situation over night & you won't get out of it over night.

You said you have a good support system around you, what have they done to help you??

Do they take you out once in a while for ladies night, will someone watch your child so you can go do that hobby you have always wanted to do?

A good support team isn't one that will just say; oh I'm sorry for you, they are the ones that make you do things, get you moving again.

PWS...you ALWAYS KNOW exacty what to say...i know your own pain and experiences have helped you become sensitive and understanding to these situations..

 

your words have helped me too..today...although i am NOT really sure where to begin...????

 

how do we do that?

 

you already KNOW all about me..and my story..

 

any suggestions...i.e. the baby steps...???

 

i try to get up everyday, go to the market, if need be, do laundry, clean my place, take my dog for a walk..BUT it is all numb..i am just going thru the motions of living..

 

14 years, i keep telling me self, is a long time..and i should not be expected to just be OK over nite..like you said..

 

i am so glad and thankful for members like you PWS...that understand that it can get worse than a backslide even..that we get in holes that we can't even see our way out of ..or even know what is actually rattling around in our head?

 

sometimes ITS just ALL TOO MUCH..my head feels like it is going to implode.

 

soo many emotions, thoughts, memories, future issues,...ack...too much sometimes..

 

thank you again PWS...and i am thinking of you Jane...

 

good luck all..i hope we all have a better day;)

[JaneDoe35]

Hey Dela, thanks for your posts, I am also just going through the motions of living. I just get up and breathe each day. Also would have been 14 years for our relationship in Feb 10. Cant believe this is it, all over.....

 

It is all way too much. I know how you feel and I hate that you are feeling like me as I would not wish this on anyone, even my husband!!!!

 

MARRIAGE COUNSELLING - Session 1

 

Ended up in counselling today with my husband, first time in joint counselling. Was scared to go but felt compelled. He was late due to traffic.

 

Session was very difficult. It was hard to listen to him. But therapist was really good and pulled him up on a few points. I thought he was going to get into an argument with her a couple of times.

 

She got a lot of information out of us in one hour. His family issues (abandonment), his cancer a few years ago etc etc. My main issue was him!!! No, I have my own of course.

 

She stated - 'In my professional opinion, it would be premature to end this marriage'. She also said things along the lines of that 'it would be beneficial to slow down' -aimed at him I believe. I was shocked as to be honest I was expecting her to tell me to let go.

 

She asked us if we would agree to return in one fortnight. We both agreed, even my husband was not reluctant. He is still 'certain' of his decision but I feel a little better now as I know now I was not holding on 'only' because of ego or in my denial.

 

So this lamb survived the slaughter today.

[delajoonal]

jane...

 

i can hear you exhale in that post....but yet, with trepidation?

 

sounds like Round 1 is over and it's just a waiting game now...

but you still be GOOD TO YOU...and work on your strengths...believe it or not.. you are much stronger than you give yourself credit for..really;)

 

i am at another bi-pass with my feelings for my H.

 

as i am NO Longer mourning, down in the mouth boo hooing, as i have been doing for weeks now..

 

because NOW i am flippin' angry!

 

H and his stupid attorney, and yes i mean stupid...have decided to pull a number out of their butts, and well, that will be MY new alimony..LOL

 

never mind that ONE amount was set forth and signed by the judge..LOL

 

geesh, what i am dealing with is so frustrating...but in the end, i will retrieve all monies lost from this assinine decision...but until then i am crying those ANGRY tears..and sooooo frustrated.

 

my attr. says to just relax, HE will take care of it all..its must about being patient right now..

 

but my point really, is this..

 

with each time my H takes something away from me..i hate him more and more..and i NO longer cry in my bed at night missing him...now i hug my little chihuahua..who sleeps on his side..LOL...and laugh and play with her..

no more yelling at me from H about bills and where is ALL the money??? etc.

 

because my H never grew up and learned that UM life costs money..LOL

a roof, food, utilitites insurance...etc....he STILL, i does NOT get it..i am SO NOT kidding...

so now instead of crying cause of being alone..i am still lonely, BUT, i no loner have to go to bed wtih my shoulders all pinched up from him compiaining about the saaaaaaaaaaame damn thing year after year...ack!

 

its over..i don't ever have to lsten to him again..LOL

 

and yes, this was just a new revalation...so i am starting to find my H's cruddy attributes, and it is making IT much easier to move on emotionally from that creep...NOW the OW, get's to listen to my H's money issues and psychotic behaviour..LOL

 

so all that rambling was NOT really just about me..LOL

 

i am hoping you see that YOU too will one day feel that same way...

 

you will feel a relief when you realize that YOU are in control of your destiny and your future..NOT your H..even if you work out the M..you can take something from this...and be prepared for ANYTHING ...anything can happen..as we all have found out..nothing stays the same forever...

 

so i wish you luck and do sincerely you can work out your family issues and stay together..but keep in mind..you also need to put some things away for YOU...just in case;)

[JaneDoe35]

Hi there, I did exhale today. But you are right - with trepidation.

 

Somewhere in me I know it is all over.

 

Somewhere in me I know it isn't.

 

There lies my problem.

 

You do sound very angry today, I really hope that lasts. I guess we can always read the angry posts when we are having those regular times of weakness.

 

I only give repairing our marriage a 10%, actually make that 5% chance.

 

I do have to be ready to be without him. I will slowly do that. Only because my heart will not let me do it quickly. I wish.

[FeelingLonely98]

MARRIAGE COUNSELLING - Session 1

... She got a lot of information out of us in one hour... He is still 'certain' of his decision but I feel a little better now as I know now I was not holding on 'only' because of ego or in my denial...

 

That was my stbxw in the 2 MCs she joined in 5 weeks ago while pretending to "try" to work it out ... She said to the counselor that she felt 0% chance that she would ever love me again and that she was 100% certain of her decision. I'm thinking in the session "then why the hell are you here?" --> She moved out the day after session #2!

 

Somewhere in me I know it is all over...

Somewhere in me I know it isn't. I only give repairing our marriage a 10%, actually make that 5% chance. I do have to be ready to be without him. I will slowly do that. Only because my heart will not let me do it quickly.

 

I give us 1% chance of repairing the M and getting back together. (mostly becuase of how mean and cruel she has been thru this!) Because of her actions she has drained my heart of desire in just weeks. I am trying to move forward NOW.

 

Like DELA, I no longer cry or feel lonely in our (um, my!) bed.

I am just so terribly disappointed that my stbxw and her MLC has led her down this dangerous and horrific path - AND that she refused to try and repair the damage done.

She is no longer the person she was even 2 & 1/2 - 3 months ago.

 

Today is the 7 week anniversary of the day she destroyed my world.

 

I wonder how many other D's have been due to a MLC such as my W went thru (and is going thru?!?!?!)

 

Going out tomorrow night to a rock club with friends ... will try to have F.U.N.!!! I have a another post on the dating thread about this (I am NOT looking to date - just was wondering how I will interact - i.e. talk! - to women after 16 yrs. with stbxw and then this!)

 

PEACE!

[JaneDoe35]

Good Morning to all - had a really difficult night....eyes are very puffy this morning. Trying to avoid eye contact with my daughter. She is doing magic tricks for me....so sweet.

 

Two months in and I still have not accepted this is even happening. Why have I not made any progress? Why the constant ache?

 

Posted a couple of pics under my profile, not sure if it worked though. I can see them, not sure if anyone else can.

 

Nervous about life, just want to feel a moment of happiness again. I miss that feeling of not worrying.

[hopesndreams]

I can see your pics Jane. I added you as a contact so you can view mine as well.

 

You are a lovely lady, your daughter is so lovely as well and yes, even your H.

 

It's still early days for you, that's why you still ache. It does get better with time and soon you will have those "moments" of happiness, embrace it and know that one day, you will feel good 80% of the time.

 

This has been the year from hell for me and I do know what you are going through. The family destroyed, having to be on your own, being 100% responsible for your life and that of your daughter. No one to catch you.

 

You do get used to it though. You have no choice. The feeling of independence will overwhelm and delight you. There are good things even in the bad things that happen in our lives.

[JaneDoe35]

I can see your pics Jane. I added you as a contact so you can view mine as well.

 

You are a lovely lady, your daughter is so lovely as well and yes, even your H.

 

It's still early days for you, that's why you still ache. It does get better with time and soon you will have those "moments" of happiness, embrace it and know that one day, you will feel good 80% of the time.

 

This has been the year from hell for me and I do know what you are going through. The family destroyed, having to be on your own, being 100% responsible for your life and that of your daughter. No one to catch you.

 

You do get used to it though. You have no choice. The feeling of independence will overwhelm and delight you. There are good things even in the bad things that happen in our lives.

 

Thanks hopesndreams - I really appreciate your post.

 

I loved your pictures, you, your son, daughter & beautiful grandson. He has my favourite boys name! Husband good looking too. Also liked the look of that rather large beer!!! Could really do with one of those most nights.....

 

Thanks for giving me hope of things getting 'better'. I will take anything that is better than this.

 

Do you feel good 80% of the time? I can't wait to feel that way!!!

 

I am sorry that you have had the year from hell. If only people could be honest - even if it hurts another. At least we would not feel so humiliated after discovering all the lies. Most relationship issues could be resolved.

[delajoonal]

hi jane, feeling..hopes...

 

sounds like we are all kinda getting past some issues and about to move on a bit?

 

even tho we all still have a ways to go and backslides and welll....broken hearts:(

 

feeling...hope you had a FABULOUS time clubbing with the boys!!

 

you will have to post and let us know what you did and if you met anyone..or just had a good time:bunny:

 

jane...see, that is what i KEEP saying..its nOT even so much as the cheating..BUT THE CONTINUOUS lies that come after or with it..just lying all the time..about everything...argh!..makes me so mad..

 

i feel humiliated and like a fool when someone lies to me...

and especially to my face..

 

and i think the reason i have been able to adjust to the anger in just a day or so, IS def because of MORE Lies my H keeps throwing at me...i mean..does he really think i am that effing stupid????:sick:..oooo he makes me sick!

just one lie after another..it is ridiculous..i feel like i am dealing with a kindergartner!

 

 

long story short, i ended up calling my H's OW last night...the recorder came on..but i, for the first time ever, said to her, referring to my husband as...YOUR BOYFRIEND..blah blah..

 

instead of saying MY HUSBAND to the OW..

 

it hit me...SHE CAN HAVE HIM..LOL

 

i didn't say MY husband and referred to my H as HER/OW Boyfriend..LOL

 

weird...oh my gosh, i can't even tell you the weird sensation that was..

 

i mean...really, this time last year, my H was MY H...and nothing was even close to a divorce.. i NEVER saw this coming.

 

and even just a few days ago, i was yelling at well, just yelling..LOL

HE IS MY HUSBAND NOT yours!!..etc...tears, expletives, more tears, etc...LOL

 

but NOW..oh, no, she cAN HAVE his lying useless cheating penny pinching arse!

 

so its only been 8 months since D day...i am in no way better...but i can't believe i no longer defended my stance as my H's wife...he is now her boyfriend..

 

and after ALL the lies, cheating, stealing...yes stealing and hiding money from me..

 

ack, she can have his lousy arse!

 

i wonder how she talks about him?

 

i imagine she runs into an old friend and the old friend asks...

"are you still married?" and my H's OW replies with,

"NO, but my boy friend is."....ROFLMAO....

 

anyway...im being silly:bunny:

 

i also found phone numbers to other women, NOT THE OW, MORE OW's..

so, its very true, the cheaters will continue to cheat..well, i can't speak for ALL of them...not fair...but i can speak for my H and his OW...

 

what did she/OW think my H would do..i mean really look at what he did to me after 14 years of marriage and a child, did she/OW really think he wouldn't cheat on HER?

 

and how could she think that the way my H has treated me, when I have done NOTHING wrong..NOthing to deserve the cruel treatment, name calling, yelling...stealing my big TV only because i enjoy it...H says..

OW knows all this...so what did she think he would do to her..or will do to her?

 

i an say this, because my H has always been a soft spoken sweet man, called me nothing but sweetie our entire marriage and never yelled...

we never had any infidelity issues..EVER...so this has put me in a place that if my H, the man EVERYONE LOVES..he is mr. perfect...if he could do this..

then anyone can..so who do i trust now???

that is what is rattling around in my head these days.

 

i actually thought it would be the other way around first......

either way, i get a bit of vindication:cool:

 

ok..so i hi-jacked your thread Jane..sorry..LOL

 

i am PMing u ...

 

take care all and keep posting...

 

 

p.s. sorry, i was kinda ALL OVER the place.

[JaneDoe35]

LIES.......it makes me think how many lies were there in our almost 14 years together? I don't mean little white one's. I mean massive hurtful one's. I thought my husband was an honourable man.

 

Have I been completely fooled for this entire relationship?

 

Dela, will PM you with comments on OW photo?!?!?!?!?!

 

I read someone else's quote on here 'He did it with you, he will do it to you' So true in your husband's case. And probably most of them actually.

 

TRUST.....how do you trust again when someone you thought loved you looks you in the eye and blatently tells a huge lie, well one after another actually.

 

FL98 - your night out seemed to go quite well all things considered. It is fantastic that you did it. I admire you. I have not been able to go out like that yet. I so wish I could. I mean I can physically, but not mentally.

[Son of Homer]

Jane, will catch up on all your posts and get back to you by the weekend with my thoughts. Glad you enjoyed Dad's book. I did an audio book but need to make it better before I offer it for sale.

[JaneDoe35]

Jane, will catch up on all your posts and get back to you by the weekend with my thoughts. Glad you enjoyed Dad's book. I did an audio book but need to make it better before I offer it for sale.

 

Thankyou, you cannot know how much I appreciate that. When I start to feel like I cannot handle the pain, I read your Dad's book again. Needless to say I have probably read it about 6 times now......

[JaneDoe35]

86?? That is fantastic. Is he still just as passionate about his work? Are you following in his footsteps? Sorry, too many questions!!!

[Son of Homer]

Yes he is very passionate. He is mentoring me and I am also consulting with people about their breakup and how my father's book and teachings can help them.