Author 2sure Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 Please elaborate on the insight you got from G.T., 2sure... so how do you see the issue now? Thank you for asking. I just cant seem to get through some of these issues on my own. The Bingo comes from.... I have felt really terrible about some of my past actions, being OW included. But I have had plenty of empathy to other OW here, knowing that for the most part they are in a vulnerable position themselves. But Ive never cut myself the same break. Ive justified it, but...thats not the same. Link to post Share on other sites
Author 2sure Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 But also, I really and truly do feel that OW in long term affairs with MM should expect more out of MM. More of whatever it is thats floats her boat. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I think the OW/MM R is as equal or unequal as the OW allows. Some OWs are indeed in vulnerable spaces, as you suggest, and are happy to get just a slice of a MM's life and love. Others demand, and get, as much as they want - and all points in between. I reckon it depends on where the OW is at the time, and what she wants out of a R, and what she's prepared to settle for. During my OW years, I had several As with MMs, and some SGs, always more than one ongoing at any time. The MMs had to fit into MY schedule since they only had one other partner to shuffle (and, in most cases, led pretty independent lives so that was easy enough). I was NEVER alone on a Saturday night - I was always with whomever I chose to be, whether that was a MM, a SG, my friends or my family - unless I chose to be. Downtime is good for R&R, and reflection, sometimes . In some As, as in some other Rs, there was an exchange of gifts, but I'm fiercely independent and would never accept mortgage payments or car payments from some dude, whoever he was (not even my H!) But I certainly never gave more than I got - not emotionally, not financially and not time or effort-wise. I'm not dumb enough to invest in a one-way or skewed exchange - more often, I'd dump the guy because he was investing TOO HEAVILY for my liking, upping the stakes to levels I was simply not prepared to approach. On the morality of it - I have no problem with As, I have no problem with sex work, and I think M is rooted in economics rather than love anyway, so to my mind there's little to distinguish a traditional W from a sex worker (simply that she has a narrower client base) - so which is "worse" than any other is a non-issue for me. I'm far more concerned about equality of exchange - if one partner is "using" the other (in whatever way) or if there is abuse or taking for granted. THAT kind of thing pushes my morality-button. Consenting adults negotiating terms of an R that suit them falls outside of my shock zone. Link to post Share on other sites
Author 2sure Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 My attitude at the time...in both having affairs and expecting "gifts" was I think, based on the fact that I had become a bit jaded regarding the whole men and relationships thing. So, that no doubt altered some of my perceptions. Link to post Share on other sites
GorillaTheater Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Thank you for asking. I just cant seem to get through some of these issues on my own. The Bingo comes from.... I have felt really terrible about some of my past actions, being OW included. But I have had plenty of empathy to other OW here, knowing that for the most part they are in a vulnerable position themselves. But Ive never cut myself the same break. Ive justified it, but...thats not the same. Yeah, cut yourself some slack, especially now for God's sake. You've done what you've done, I've done what I've done. All we can do is forgive ourselves while we learn from what we've done as best we can. Link to post Share on other sites
Author 2sure Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 Keyword: Learn I'm trying. I know whats happening in my life right now is not my fault. But you know, I didnt get here by some freak accident. Link to post Share on other sites
Sanafa Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 2sure I agree with many here.... while you may dance around "prostitution"... making an agreement for financial gain for companionship is prostitution and in Canada has a higher level of vocabulary - they are called escorts or companions... but it's no better or worse. I have nothing against that life style at all - however their is no real gray area. As for OW taking less, I am not so sure - he contributed to the house every month ( shared, not paid) and he covered several items a husband would - but just like a husband, I would not expect him to take care of me -- no one can do that, but myself. It made it easier to have a partner, but I never depended on him financially to ensure a roof over my head... and hope to god I never depend on a man for that. We were equal in the relationship -- open-minded and honest almost to a fault with one another There should not be judgement for anyone's choices and as you said - are learning experiences but to suggest a prostitute is "less than" simply because they actually market themselves as such imo, is unfair and not really being honest. Link to post Share on other sites
Author 2sure Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 Well, I dunno. Most would say Either infidelity itself is immoral or it isnt. No gray area there either. People ask , which is worse - EA, PA. ONS. etc. answer depends on who you ask. Still, all a betrayal, all infidelity. Both people in an affair GET something they need. Who is going to decide what it is that is OK to need? Ego feeding, sex, validation, something secret, narcissism - those needs are more ok than , cash? Cant convince me of that. I didnt need MM to pay my mortgage, I didn't need MM to buy me a car (just a better one), I did need for someone to show me , tangibly, that they cared about me even when they werent in my bed. Link to post Share on other sites
Author 2sure Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 Giving away your heart and sole to someone who gives you a piece does not make you an equal partner. Link to post Share on other sites
Sanafa Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Well, I dunno. Most would say Either infidelity itself is immoral or it isnt. No gray area there either. People ask , which is worse - EA, PA. ONS. etc. answer depends on who you ask. Still, all a betrayal, all infidelity. Both people in an affair GET something they need. Who is going to decide what it is that is OK to need? Ego feeding, sex, validation, something secret, narcissism - those needs are more ok than , cash? Cant convince me of that. I didnt need MM to pay my mortgage, I didn't need MM to buy me a car (just a better one), I did need for someone to show me , tangibly, that they cared about me even when they werent in my bed. I am not arguing that you are entitled, I am simply saying the actual definition for that is prostitution - escort - companion. Suggesting it is not is like suggesting someone who works on cars all day isn't a mechanic. I am also by no means judging it --- I take no issue with the profession at all, but it is that - it is an agreement between two adults for compensation. Link to post Share on other sites
Sanafa Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Giving away your heart and sole to someone who gives you a piece does not make you an equal partner. I agree..... but I would rather live my life fully and without fear than having the balance sheet out everyday. I understand how terrible things have been 2sure.... I do - but please don't let it jade you ---- you can go into relationships knowing what you want and knowing you are capable of truly loving someone. Take it as the gift it is ---- so many are uncapable Link to post Share on other sites
Author 2sure Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 No, no, no criticism taken. Ever. All thoughts appreciated, I'm not one of those, you know that! Companion, Escort providing affection, emotional support, friendship, and sex Affair Partner, Other Woman providing affection, emotional support, friendship, and sex In either situation, only one person pays. Only difference , often, is who. Link to post Share on other sites
Author 2sure Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 And the currency paid, thats different too. Link to post Share on other sites
Sanafa Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 No, no, no criticism taken. Ever. All thoughts appreciated, I'm not one of those, you know that! Companion, Escort providing affection, emotional support, friendship, and sex Affair Partner, Other Woman providing affection, emotional support, friendship, and sex In either situation, only one person pays. Only difference , often, is who.' I do know! And I agree... but the definition of prostitution IS money ( that is the differentiators) And perhaps different - but emotionally and physically - I got back all I gave and never felt slighted. For me, what he gave me those areas were equal to any money he could have given. I was never in it for the money ( I am sure his W may have first thought that as they are extremely well off).... but he could have given the millions to her on a silver platter.... I wouldn't have cared less. Link to post Share on other sites
Adunaphel Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Also, I dont get: Why is what I have done considered closer to prostitution or more morally bankrupt , less justifiable than an affair that happens accidentally or one with no exchange other than love? There are all kinds of affairs, all kinds of reasons...but why is one in which the OW is given more than inconvenience , more than words...considered worse..both by OW and by BS? Very interesting point! I think I would feel that getting some 'tangible' benefits might send the wrong message (like that the moment I accept that he spends on me much more money than I spend on him I am implicitly accepting that he temporizes in making an important decision or in acting on it). I also remember that whenever MM spent money on me I felt the need to let him know that I was interested in him, and not in his money. (But I'd feel the same way toward a single guy.) Link to post Share on other sites
MistyK Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Companion, Escort providing affection, emotional support, friendship, and sex Affair Partner, Other Woman providing affection, emotional support, friendship, and sex In either situation, only one person pays. Only difference , often, is who. Prostitutes provide emotional support? When did they start to provide anything other than sex? Sanafa - I don't think its neccessary to compare dollar for dollar every gift you get with every gift you give to determine equality. And I still don't see how through your narrow definition taking a gify from a boyfriend who happens to be married is different than taking a gift from a single boyfriend. One is being dubbed prostitution and one is not. It makes no sense. Link to post Share on other sites
TogetherForever Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 MY LOVE DON'T COST A THING ! Link to post Share on other sites
Author 2sure Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 I was talking to another OW on here recently via PMs which is what brought this whole thread to mind...so it isnt completely self serving or self reflection... But just for the sake of conversation, I want to share w/ you what I shared with her - regarding HOW MM might pay for something or offer to care for OW without it feeling like a "cash transaction." Even MM who want affairs NEVER want to feel like they are obliged or paying for anything. It would go like this. Me - "We wont be able to meet at my apartment anymore. Things are a little tight, so I'm getting a roommate" So he says "NO, I dont want you to have to that, you dont want a roommate, I'll pay the rent." Now - he is only paying the rent so he is not inconvenienced. Whose playing who? OR Me - "I wont have as much time to see you anymore. I'm picking up a second job because I need a new car." Same thing Link to post Share on other sites
MistyK Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 For the record, I never asked nor wanted for anything from xMM. I was never interested in his money and declined it every time he'd offer. But he said it upset him that I would decline - he felt it was rejecting the only thing he had to offer me when he could not be with me full time. I would have loved him just as much as if he was poor. And I didn't seek him out, or any other MM, he was a friend and we were both in crappy marriages - it happened. I was not on a mission. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 An expensive vacation, or extravagant dinners doesen't make you a prostitute. Concubine? Mistress? Maybe. Having a MM pay your rent and expenses.. in our U.S. society, that's something else altogether. Much closer to prostitution IMO. It's not much of a leap either... MM comes over for some good company and exciting sex, leaves a check for the rent on the table. Not a hard connection to make. If you QUIT having sex with the MM and he is no longer willing to pay for the expensive vacations as a result, it's prostitution. It's an exchange of sex for something of monetary value. Doesn't matter what the item is, whether it be an apartment or an expensive tripe. These are all things that cost money, so in this case, money = sex. Link to post Share on other sites
Author 2sure Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 AND remember, in my role as OW as with most affairs...sex was not the primary function Link to post Share on other sites
MistyK Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 If you QUIT having sex with the MM and he is no longer willing to pay for the expensive vacations as a result, it's prostitution. It's an exchange of sex for something of monetary value. Doesn't matter what the item is, whether it be an apartment or an expensive tripe. These are all things that cost money, so in this case, money = sex. Most of the gifts I got from xMM were given months before we started having sex. So it wasn't quid pro quo. And it was never about sex. But again, how is this any different than if the MM happened to be a single guy? Can't a woman take gifts from her boyfriend? Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Most of the gifts I got from xMM were given months before we started having sex. So it wasn't quid pro quo. And it was never about sex. But again, how is this any different than if the MM happened to be a single guy? Can't a woman take gifts from her boyfriend? Of course, but a monogomous relationship that is expected to lead to something lasting is WAY different than someone who is accepting gifts from a married man with NO expectation of actually living a life together with all that encompasses a one-on-one relationship; trust, a shared household, support of one another forever and ever. Someone who takes gifts for willingly keeping quiet the fact that they are having sex with a MM/MW can and WOULD be quickly interchanged if they suddenly decided they wanted a true relationship or were to cut off the sex. This is in the case of when the affair is clearly understood to be ONLY sex on the side and not one where an AP is hoping their MM/MW will eventually leave their spouse. Please keep in mind, this is ONLY my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites
Author 2sure Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 Its a sensitive subject - the exchange of monetary gifts between MM and OW. Society makes the OW a prostitute if she accepts gifts that are considered in many other relationships, acceptable. The MM while cheating on his spouse, is not by this same code - expected to provide or support OW in any way. That would be wrong. Many OW do not have relationships with others while seeing MM. For her, it is an exclusive relationship. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Its a sensitive subject - the exchange of monetary gifts between MM and OW. Society makes the OW a prostitute if she accepts gifts that are considered in many other relationships, acceptable. The MM while cheating on his spouse, is not by this same code - expected to provide or support OW in any way. That would be wrong. Many OW do not have relationships with others while seeing MM. For her, it is an exclusive relationship. And some OW have MANY MANY MANY MM! I consider THAT, my friends, a career path. Link to post Share on other sites
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