Narcisissism

[OWoman]

On another thread, accusations of narcissism were tossed out randomly at OW, including myself , and since I'm not a qualified clinical psychologist, I did not feel qualified to respond to that at the time. I've since done some research on this, including going through my own psychological profile reports, and am happy to report that I am NOT a narcissist .

 

However, a couple of things struck me about narcissism, which I thought I'd flag here, given how readily the term is tossed about.

 

 

• Narcissism isn't all bad. An amount of narcissism is healthy, necessary, even - as it helps adult balance their own needs in relation to others'.
  
• "Healthy narcissism forms a constant, realistic self-interest and mature goals and principles and an ability to form deep object relations."
  
• If parental admiration is inconsistent or withheld, children may compensate by developing unhealthy narcissism.
  
• Narcissism is a necessary part of healthy development.
  

 

NPD is a personality disorder, which involves:

 

• "a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy."
  
• turning inward for gratification rather than depending on others
  
• being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, and prestige
  
• diagnosis is made if at least five of the nine DSM IV-TR criteria are present (you can find a list of these on Wikipedia)
  

A number of OWs have reported that their MMs (or, often, fMMs) have NPD. A number of posters have decided - on the basis of all the clinical data at their disposal - that OWs obviously all have NPD. My H's xW (the BW in the A triangle) was diagnosed with NPD. So it would seem that NPD could pop up at any point of the "A triangle".

 

Which got me to wondering - hence this thread - how many posters here, in their lay opinions (aside from the couple who are qualified therapists, who may make use of their qualified clinical skills to back up their opinions) , have encountered NPD or "malignant narcissism" as part of their A experience - and which of the party/s manifested this? I'm interested to see how widespread it is (perceived to be) in As.

[grogster]

"Narcissism" as used in everyday speech is a pejorative, not clinical, term. It's a highfalutin way of saying "selfish" or "bad boy" or "bad girl."

 

When clinical terms are bandied about all-the-time as insult they become drained of meaning and, paradoxically, lose their sting. Word inflation.

 

As for my affair, I can safely say that neither I nor my MW were clinical Narcissists. We were many things, but not that.

 

I suspect the urge to label all affair participants as Narcissists arises from three bases. First, it's simple oneupmanship:"I'm mentally (morally?)healthy, you're not."

 

Second, the use of "clinical" terms to explain what used to be known as "sin" illustrates how the DSM has replaced the Bible as revealed authority: Psychiatrists as the new Priests. That's unfortunate. The Bible (the Old Testament at least) is much better literature than the DSM.

 

Last, clinically labeling affair participants is a useful distancing device that can be expressed like this: Only Narcissists have affairs. I'm not a Narcissist. Thus, I'll never have an affair.

 

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

[OWoman]

"Narcissism" as used in everyday speech is a pejorative, not clinical, term. It's a highfalutin way of saying "selfish" or "bad boy" or "bad girl."

 

When clinical terms are bandied about all-the-time as insult they become drained of meaning and, paradoxically, lose their sting. Word inflation.

 

As for my affair, I can safely say that neither I nor my MW were clinical Narcissists. We were many things, but not that.

 

I suspect the urge to label all affair participants as Narcissists arises from three bases. First, it's simple oneupmanship:"I'm mentally (morally?)healthy, you're not."

 

Second, the use of "clinical" terms to explain what used to be known as "sin" illustrates how the DSM has replaced the Bible as revealed authority: Psychiatrists as the new Priests. That's unfortunate. The Bible (the Old Testament at least) is much better literature than the DSM.

 

Last, clinically labeling affair participants is a useful distancing device that can be expressed like this: Only Narcissists have affairs. I'm not a Narcissist. Thus, I'll never have an affair.

 

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

 

Makes sense

 

I've never read the whole of the DSM - only excerpts. It was pretty dry - but then, chunks of the bible are too. Maybe they've tucked the poetic bits away in footnotes or appendices?

 

Anyway, <climbs onto stage> I'm not a narcissist, and I've had several As. </climbs off stage>. "Normal" people do that kind of thing, too...

[New_Life08]

My ex husband was the poster-boy for narcissist. I remember a friend kept telling me "he's such a narcissist" but I didn't completely understand until our marriage was on the rocks and I read every self-help and relationship book known to man. LOL.

 

He was always right about everything, the rest of the world wasn't only wrong...they were crazy! He had an insatiable need for superiority and didn't spare any feelings to get it.

 

His over-blown sense of entitlement is what got to me the most.. For example: he was entitled to take several vacations a year with friends while I stayed home with the kids...that is how it is supposed to be because he was the bread-winner. He had 5 weeks vacation a year and 1 week was spent with the family...doing (of course) what he wanted to do...camping!! The rest was used for himself to do whatever he pleased.

 

When I would suggest getting something new, furniture, a pet, or whatever...he would lay out conditions. If I let you get that...then you have to do this. Whatever he did for me I owed him something back. But he bent over backwards for others with no expectations...just the pat on the back.. The more they admired him, the more he would do.

 

Talking about this now seems so surreal. I went to therapy after the divorce, and I cannot even imagine putting up with that now. The truth of the matter is...underneath his superiority was a very insecure man.

 

I hope he is better with the next.

[NoIDidn't]

I agree with Grogster.

 

My ex is a diagnosed narcissist.

 

My mom is a certified therapist. These aren't terms that should just be thrown around. I don't agree with the practice.

 

That said, a number of BSs have found out through MC and IC that they are dealing with a certifiable narcissist. So it could be accurate that many MPs are narcissistic.

 

However, it is incorrect to label the codependents in relationships with these narcissists as the same. They are not.

[bentnotbroken]

I don't like the term being thrown around either. Mr. Messy was also diagnosed. One of the many reasons I chose the path that I did with him. There is no getting around his issues, since according to him, he has none. it didn't matter that he is the one who answered all the questions that lead to the diagnosis.

[VictoryisMine]

Years ago i escaped a narcissist, badly beaten emotionally.

 

But i will never forget back then, a lady i worked for who knew what happened to me..... took me by the hand, and like something out of a movie.... looked me in the eyes, almost pleading.... "There are a lot of them out there, a lot." ... continued to comfort me.

 

I never forgot her and her words and she is right, horrifyingly right.

[donnamaybe]

Lack of empathy. That is a problem, isn't it?

[Dexter Morgan]

"Narcissism" as used in everyday speech is a pejorative, not clinical, term. It's a highfalutin way of saying "selfish" or "bad boy" or "bad girl."

 

I think its more on the lines of someone that is so in love with themselves, or has an over heightened sense of superiority of themselves that they think they are sheilded from being wronged or played by someone else.

 

In other words, they are all that and a bag of chips that someone wouldn't possibly cheat on them:rolleyes:

 

That and the run of the mill, and typically thought of definition, that one thinks their s##t don't stink.

[grogster]

I think its more on the lines of someone that is so in love with themselves, or has an over heightened sense of superiority of themselves that they think they are sheilded from being wronged or played by someone else.

 

In other words, they are all that and a bag of chips that someone wouldn't possibly cheat on them:rolleyes:

 

That and the run of the mill, and typically thought of definition, that one thinks their s##t don't stink.

 

 

That guy sounds like he's full of himself: arrogant, condescending, perhaps a tad obnoxious.

 

I understand that someone clinically diagnosed with NPD is of a whole other order of magnitude.

 

But I'm not a clinician, so what do I know.

[2sure]

My husband IS a Narcissist. And now has the professional diagnosis.

People confuse being selfish and egotistical with NPD. While they may also be those things...they may not.

 

My H is not selfish, he is giving to a fault. My H , although very ambitious and image conscious...doesnt think he is better than anyone.

 

My H has empathy for others, including strangers that move him not only to tears...but also to action.

 

When my H wants something, a position, a material object, or validation....he will stop at absolutely nothing to have those needs fulfilled. He cannot wrap his head around the fact that the course of action he takes to fulfill those needs may lay waste to everything else. If the consequences of his actions dont affect him directly and dramatically in a negative way, and the result is having his need fulfilled...whats the real harm?

 

The real problem with true Narcissism is that the basis of the needs goes unrecognized, the needs remain unfulfilled.

[deux ex machina]

There is nothing I can add here that grogster and NoIDidn't haven't already stated.

 

Mine had a part in ruining this lovely, white wrap-around dress I was wearing recently.

 

During a recent talk, I was sipping at my coffee as he answered my question as to how therapy was going.

 

"I quit going. There's nothing I can think of as being wrong, really..."

 

Involutary spit-take on my part, and a ruined dress.

 

I thought I was unflappable, after everything. Suppose not.

 

 

Funny how weeks before, he "was trying so hard with therapy - to be a better person."

 

One thing about them: always chock full of surprises.

[Athena]

A few years ago, I had never heard of NPD... and didn't use the term 'narcissism' in everyday conversation either.

 

My counselor (a clinical psychologist) said that my H displayed N, and then when we started MC in addition to my IC, she confirmed it.

I too have done a lot of reading. The part about N's needing 'admiration' apparently is not quite true... they are looking for assurance that they do not have a flaw, that they are normal, at the same time they feel they hate themselves.

[Athena]

My husband IS a Narcissist. And now has the professional diagnosis.

People confuse being selfish and egotistical with NPD. While they may also be those things...they may not.

 

My H is not selfish, he is giving to a fault. My H , although very ambitious and image conscious...doesnt think he is better than anyone.

 

My H has empathy for others, including strangers that move him not only to tears...but also to action.

Ditto for my husband; very generous with time, money, advice, gifts, driving people places, doing favors for people...helps where he can

He feels he is worse than people but attempts to cover it up (he actually is smart, funny, educated, white-collar prof. with good pay)

[Athena]

There is no getting around his issues, since according to him, he has none. it didn't matter that he is the one who answered all the questions that lead to the diagnosis.

 

... and even if they do get a diagnosis, and even if they do believe they have the label Narcissist by a clinical psychologist, they STILL won't do anything to change, because they don't care about their behavior -- they think they are behaving alright, and don't want help, don't need help, and as my H recently wrote me, he thinks he can do it on his own, and doesn't need to answer some person's questions and Pay them for it!

[Athena]

Second, the use of "clinical" terms to explain what used to be known as "sin" illustrates how the DSM has replaced the Bible as revealed authority: Psychiatrists as the new Priests. That's unfortunate. The Bible (the Old Testament at least) is much better literature than the DSM.

Wow, VERY very interesting!!!

 

Last, clinically labeling affair participants is a useful distancing device that can be expressed like this: Only Narcissists have affairs. I'm not a Narcissist. Thus, I'll never have an affair.

 

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

 

Yup, it's a self-assuring thing too... but as you pointed out, not all affair partners are narcissistic, although I am sure that a high percentage of narcissists DO screw around!

[Athena]

 

Talking about this now seems so surreal. I went to therapy after the divorce, and I cannot even imagine putting up with that now. The truth of the matter is...underneath his superiority was a very insecure man.

Yes. That's because he is a RIGID person!Underneath their entitlement, or their aggravation, N's are very insecure, but they hate that part of them, and will do Anything not to be seen as what they are.

 

I hope he is better with the next.

 

Why? What's changed for him? Has he gone to therapy for years and years? -- I highly doubt he's just gonna change when he has no driving motivation to do so. After all, Everything has to go his way, right?

[2sure]

Had to chime in on that Athena.

 

My H and his Dr. are waving the Narcissist Flag at me like "Look!! Here is the reason WHY I cheated."

 

OK. So....WHY = Justification? What on earth makes them think the WHY would matter to me, the one hurt by the actions.

 

His NPD Diagnosis is a justification, doesnt make it right even to him maybe - but still a reason, a why.

 

I dont care WHY you are an as*hole. Even with NPD you choose when to be an AH, and to whom. I'm dealing with the RESULTS of your NPD.

[movingforward]

On another thread, accusations of narcissism were tossed out randomly at OW, including myself , and since I'm not a qualified clinical psychologist, I did not feel qualified to respond to that at the time. I've since done some research on this, including going through my own psychological profile reports, and am happy to report that I am NOT a narcissist .

 

However, a couple of things struck me about narcissism, which I thought I'd flag here, given how readily the term is tossed about.

 

 

• Narcissism isn't all bad. An amount of narcissism is healthy, necessary, even - as it helps adult balance their own needs in relation to others'.
  
• "Healthy narcissism forms a constant, realistic self-interest and mature goals and principles and an ability to form deep object relations."
  
• If parental admiration is inconsistent or withheld, children may compensate by developing unhealthy narcissism.
  
• Narcissism is a necessary part of healthy development.
  

 

NPD is a personality disorder, which involves:

 

• "a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy."
  
• turning inward for gratification rather than depending on others
  
• being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, and prestige
  
• diagnosis is made if at least five of the nine DSM IV-TR criteria are present (you can find a list of these on Wikipedia)
  

A number of OWs have reported that their MMs (or, often, fMMs) have NPD. A number of posters have decided - on the basis of all the clinical data at their disposal - that OWs obviously all have NPD. My H's xW (the BW in the A triangle) was diagnosed with NPD. So it would seem that NPD could pop up at any point of the "A triangle".

 

Which got me to wondering - hence this thread - how many posters here, in their lay opinions (aside from the couple who are qualified therapists, who may make use of their qualified clinical skills to back up their opinions) , have encountered NPD or "malignant narcissism" as part of their A experience - and which of the party/s manifested this? I'm interested to see how widespread it is (perceived to be) in As.

 

 

My father is a classic narcissist. After leaving home at a very early age I vowed to NEVER involve myself with someone like him. It took a lot of very difficult relationships for me to finally meet my husband who is definitely not a narcissist.

 

But the joke is on me. I avoided marrying a narcissist only to end up in an affair with one. Some patterns are never broken I suppose.

[Athena]

However, it is incorrect to label the codependents in relationships with these narcissists as the same. They are not.

 

Can you elaborate on this, please?

 

Why do the spouses/AP's stay with a N, and what are the trademarks of a 'codependent'... are N's attracted to people like that, or do 'vulnerable' people land up becoming Co-dependent when in a relationship with a Narcissist?

 

Very interesting...

[Athena]

Had to chime in on that Athena.

 

My H and his Dr. are waving the Narcissist Flag at me like "Look!! Here is the reason WHY I cheated."

 

OK. So....WHY = Justification? What on earth makes them think the WHY would matter to me, the one hurt by the actions.

 

2sure, if your H is anything like mine, he will ride the N card as long as is needed, in order to win you back, after which time he will ease up on his 'therapy' and enjoy having his wife back and not losing anything (N's HATE losing ANYTHING 'theirs', and YOU are theirs!)

[Athena]

My father is a classic narcissist. After leaving home at a very early age I vowed to NEVER involve myself with someone like him. It took a lot of very difficult relationships for me to finally meet my husband who is definitely not a narcissist.

 

But the joke is on me. I avoided marrying a narcissist only to end up in an affair with one. Some patterns are never broken I suppose.

Nope, it's not 'the joke is on you'... isn't this classically what we all try do? Repeat our families history, but this time, Try to Fix it!!!!!

 

As 2Sure's said before,

"But you know, I didn't get here by some freak accident. "

[Athena]

That's why certain "themes" run in families, e.g. mother having baby as a very young, unwed teen.

Or, father's abandoning their children

Or, women raising kids alone...

even Alcoholism

 

take your pick -- whatever is in your family's history, you are bound to be repeating unconsciously....

[tinktronik]

My husband IS a Narcissist. And now has the professional diagnosis.

People confuse being selfish and egotistical with NPD. While they may also be those things...they may not.

 

My H is not selfish, he is giving to a fault. My H , although very ambitious and image conscious...doesnt think he is better than anyone.

 

My H has empathy for others, including strangers that move him not only to tears...but also to action.

 

When my H wants something, a position, a material object, or validation....he will stop at absolutely nothing to have those needs fulfilled. He cannot wrap his head around the fact that the course of action he takes to fulfill those needs may lay waste to everything else. If the consequences of his actions dont affect him directly and dramatically in a negative way, and the result is having his need fulfilled...whats the real harm?

 

The real problem with true Narcissism is that the basis of the needs goes unrecognized, the needs remain unfulfilled.

 

2Sure, I had exactly the same experience with my exH. In the main he was capable of removed empathy but in the moment, if there was a personal agenda, he was absolutely ruthless and could not see any results to his actions. Because there was something he desired, be it a pair of shoes vs. milk for our children or a woman he wanted to screw vs. his pregnant wife needing to see a Dr., it must be obtained at any cost. It is a difficult thing to explain, he absolutely could not understand how anything would be more important than his need and any negative consequence caused by his action to fulfill that need he could not see it as being connected to his action by him. OR he would somehow honestly believe that a clearly negative reaction was a positive one caused by him.

 

I wanted to expound a bit. He also believes that any reaction caused by him is posative no matter what. If he caused anything, no matter what, it is GOOD.

[Devil Inside]

OW good post. As some of you know I am a therapist. I do diagnose people. I have treated folks with NPD...and it is a tough road.

 

However, narcissism itself is actually a defense mechanism that many people employ...people that do not have a mental illness.

 

All narcissism is is idealizing the self. It functions as a defense in that it pushes from consciousness feelings of anxiety, unworthiness, helplessness or loss. People that idealize the self have two competing definitions of the self; one that is perfect and entitled, and one that is unworthy. So whenever the feelings of worthlessness start to creep through...the defense is to bolster the perfect self.

 

People that use narcissism excessively are actually people that have incredibly low self worth. They need to work with a therapist that is extremely skilled at building relationships and working past the defenses to get to the injured core of their client. It is a very vulnerable place to be, and for that reason many people can never get to the point where they can drop narcissism as a defense.

 

Now what I described above is not the same as the occasional use of narcissism as a defense...which everybody does. Just like everybody projects, avoids, dissociates, and uses addictive patterns. It becomes an issue when these defenses cause problems in a person's life...like a serial cheater.

 

Now NPD....whole other ballgame. This is a pervasive. It is also ego syntonic...in that the it does not cause the person pain to be this way...just everybody else. What they believe about themselves is not consistent with their self perception. This makes it very hard to treat.