Narcisissism

[Devil Inside]

Had to chime in on that Athena.

 

My H and his Dr. are waving the Narcissist Flag at me like "Look!! Here is the reason WHY I cheated."

 

OK. So....WHY = Justification? What on earth makes them think the WHY would matter to me, the one hurt by the actions.

 

His NPD Diagnosis is a justification, doesnt make it right even to him maybe - but still a reason, a why.

 

I dont care WHY you are an as*hole. Even with NPD you choose when to be an AH, and to whom. I'm dealing with the RESULTS of your NPD.

 

Actually NPD is the justification you have for leaving. He has a long road ahead, and truly to be able to work through these issues with NPD is nearly impossible.

[Athena]

It is a difficult thing to explain, he absolutely could not understand how anything would be more important than his need and any negative consequence caused by his action to fulfill that need he could not see it as being connected to his action by him.

 

N's do have to have THEIR needs taken care of!

[2sure]

As 2Sure's said before,

"But you know, I didn't get here by some freak accident. "

 

I have tatoo that somewhere on myself that will remind me of this every single day. I know it, I just dont know the answer yet. Dont know for sure if I ever will.

[Thaddeus]

Perhaps narcissism isn't the correct term. The term does get bandied about a lot, but in the case of unrepentant OWs or OMs it may not be accurate.

 

Maybe clinical psychopathy is a better description. Fortunately, it's been studied in depth. The link outlines 20 tendencies, many of which fit the unrepentant OW profile:

 

• grandiose sense of self worth
  
• pathological lying
  
• conning/manipulative
  
• lack of remorse or guilt
  
• shallow emotional response
  
• callous/lack of empathy
  
• parasitic lifestyle
  
• poor behavioral controls
  
• promiscuous sexual behavior
  
• lack of realistic long term goals
  
• impulsivity
  
• irresponsibility
  
• failure to accept responsibility for their own actions
  
• many short term relationships
  

So perhaps the diagnosis of narcissism isn't accurate after all. Perhaps "psychopath" is a more fitting diagnosis. Maybe DI could comment, given his professional background.

[Athena]

OW good post. As some of you know I am a therapist. I do diagnose people. I have treated folks with NPD...and it is a tough road.

 

However, narcissism itself is actually a defense mechanism that many people employ...people that do not have a mental illness.

 

All narcissism is is idealizing the self. It functions as a defense in that it pushes from consciousness feelings of anxiety, unworthiness, helplessness or loss. People that idealize the self have two competing definitions of the self; one that is perfect and entitled, and one that is unworthy. So whenever the feelings of worthlessness start to creep through...the defense is to bolster the perfect self.

 

People that use narcissism excessively are actually people that have incredibly low self worth. They need to work with a therapist that is extremely skilled at building relationships and working past the defenses to get to the injured core of their client. It is a very vulnerable place to be, and for that reason many people can never get to the point where they can drop narcissism as a defense.

 

Now what I described above is not the same as the occasional use of narcissism as a defense...which everybody does. Just like everybody projects, avoids, dissociates, and uses addictive patterns. It becomes an issue when these defenses cause problems in a person's life...like a serial cheater.

 

Now NPD....whole other ballgame. This is a pervasive. It is also ego syntonic...in that the it does not cause the person pain to be this way...just everybody else. What they believe about themselves is not consistent with their self perception. This makes it very hard to treat.

 

Thank you for this post, you clarified a lot of things for me!

Wow, no wonder different information about N sounds almost contradictory! But the way you explained it above, makes perfect sense. Thanks again.

[Athena]

Actually NPD is the justification you have for leaving. He has a long road ahead, and truly to be able to work through these issues with NPD is nearly impossible.

 

<sigh>... and I did try be there for my H all these long, long years... but, Especially since he will not seriously attend therapy, but only does it sporadically 'for show' and immediately claims 'understanding' and 'cure' (within 2 months or less of a few sessions, and corresponding email sessions with his counselor), I can see he does not have the will to 'stick it out' for that 'long road ahead' you speak of.

[tinktronik]

Can you elaborate on this, please?

 

Why do the spouses/AP's stay with a N, and what are the trademarks of a 'codependent'... are N's attracted to people like that, or do 'vulnerable' people land up becoming Co-dependent when in a relationship with a Narcissist?

 

Very interesting...

 

I would not say that they are co-dependents at all. I would say that personally I found it extremely difficult to simply "get away" from the narcissist in my life. No matter what actions I took to leave there he was insisting I must not "get away"; even if he did not actually want me.

[deux ex machina]

...

Now NPD....whole other ballgame. This is a pervasive. It is also ego syntonic...in that the it does not cause the person pain to be this way...just everybody else. What they believe about themselves is not consistent with their self perception. This makes it very hard to treat.

 

The guy I go see is excellent. I respect him very much - does not tell me anything "for my own good" - he tells it like it is.

 

Two types of people he will not treat:

 

1. Narcissists

 

2. Psychopaths

 

Why? He doesn't want to waste his expertise and time.

[2sure]

Yes, DI that is a good post. Exactly as it has been explained to me regarding my H and his course of "treatment."

 

No one knows at this point if my H is a good candidate to come to terms with this. I mean, he does and so does his Dr...but whats that worth to me? The one taking the RISKS? Not much.

 

Sigh, see ...now I have to take a pill.

[Athena]

Actually NPD is the justification you have for leaving. He has a long road ahead, and truly to be able to work through these issues with NPD is nearly impossible.

 

Wait! ... what?... so you are saying that 2sure SHOULD indeed be leaving her N H because he is NPD?.....

... there! you said it!

How many times do counselors (including MINE) say that they are in the 'business of change' and that my H could do therapy, blah, blah, blah....

 

Dammit! *** No Change, No Change, No Change.... <leave him>!!!!!! For one's own sanity!****

[Devil Inside]

<sigh>... and I did try be there for my H all these long, long years... but, Especially since he will not seriously attend therapy, but only does it sporadically 'for show' and immediately claims 'understanding' and 'cure' (within 2 months or less of a few sessions, and corresponding email sessions with his counselor), I can see he does not have the will to 'stick it out' for that 'long road ahead' you speak of.

 

Yes it is difficult to say the least. Problem is, to really get something our of therapy you must allow yourself to be vulnerable. You must be able to look at your faults, shortcomings, dysfunctions, and all the ugly stuff inside us all.

 

If you have NPD...you really don't see them. This is what makes it hard...they see themselves in one way, and everybody else in another. So they don't have a problem...everybody else does.

[Athena]

Sigh, see ...now I have to take a pill.

See -- Exactly!!!!! It's all at YOUR COST! Your happiness, sanity, capabilities, self-esteem, etc.... YOU are the one taking a pill while he claims NPD and hide behind his Therapists skirts!

[tinktronik]

Originally Posted by Devil Inside

...

Now NPD....whole other ballgame. This is a pervasive. It is also ego syntonic...in that the it does not cause the person pain to be this way...just everybody else. What they believe about themselves is not consistent with their self perception. This makes it very hard to treat.

 

I have a question DI. It does seem to cause some distress in the N. It seems to stress the N when the world won't function to his/her desires. Is the N not capable of seeing this as a result of their N and just as everyone else needing treatment?

[2sure]

My H actually said these words to me after 3 days at a clinic with his Dr, from which he returned with his NPD books, etc. :

 

" I promise to be good"

 

He said that. I wanted to kick him in the groin. I couldnt even respond verbally I was so dumbfounded.

[Trialbyfire]

Now NPD....whole other ballgame. This is a pervasive. It is also ego syntonic...in that the it does not cause the person pain to be this way...just everybody else. What they believe about themselves is not consistent with their self perception. This makes it very hard to treat.

My ex-H is still in IC for NPD, over 2.5 years later.

[Devil Inside]

Wait! ... what?... so you are saying that 2sure SHOULD indeed be leaving her N H because he is NPD?.....

... there! you said it!

How many times do counselors (including MINE) say that they are in the 'business of change' and that my H could do therapy, blah, blah, blah....

 

Dammit! *** No Change, No Change, No Change.... <leave him>!!!!!! For one's own sanity!****

 

I am giving 2Sure some advice based on the odds. If she were in Vegas and asked if it made sense to bet her life savings on one number on the roulette wheel I would tell her no. She has a lot more to lose here...her self worth, her sanity, her health, etc....

 

Does this mean that people never change....no. However, there are odds for everything. Dealing with someone that is depressed...you have a good chance that with treatment they will be able to be back in the swing of things and healthy. Personality disorders...just tough...these are patterns that have deep roots and many of them make it so that therapy just doesn't make sense to them.

 

Nothing is impossible...but I care about 2Sure...so yeah..I say you leave when it makes sense for you...because odds are...he isn't going to change enough to make your life with him worth living.

[Athena]

Yes it is difficult to say the least. Problem is, to really get something our of therapy you must allow yourself to be vulnerable. You must be able to look at your faults, shortcomings, dysfunctions, and all the ugly stuff inside us all.

 

If you have NPD...you really don't see them. This is what makes it hard...they see themselves in one way, and everybody else in another. So they don't have a problem...everybody else does.

 

So, are you saying that if you have NPD you cannot see that you have faults and problems?

Because my H DOES now admit he's 'got a problem' (all his affairs over two marriages, spanning about 29 years of his adult life... he's 49) but he hates the label Narcissist, and says that because he HATES himself, despises himself, that he is not truly a Narcissist, and all he needs is to 'think things through' and to have "my help"... grrr

 

So, how does H not see 'his faults' and yet acknowledge that he 'has a problem' because he keeps on with his serial affairs? I am struggling to understand that

[angie2443]

If you have NPD...you really don't see them. This is what makes it hard...they see themselves in one way, and everybody else in another. So they don't have a problem...everybody else does.

 

Devil Inside, thank you for your posts! They are very insightful. If you are still reading this thread, I have a question. Is NPD a trait you are born with or maybe just predispositioned to? I see so many of the traits in my husband, I just wonder.

[Athena]

I am giving 2Sure some advice based on the odds. If she were in Vegas and asked if it made sense to bet her life savings on one number on the roulette wheel I would tell her no. She has a lot more to lose here...her self worth, her sanity, her health, etc....

 

Does this mean that people never change....no. However, there are odds for everything. Dealing with someone that is depressed...you have a good chance that with treatment they will be able to be back in the swing of things and healthy. Personality disorders...just tough...these are patterns that have deep roots and many of them make it so that therapy just doesn't make sense to them.

 

Nothing is impossible...but I care about 2Sure...so yeah..I say you leave when it makes sense for you...because odds are...he isn't going to change enough to make your life with him worth living.

 

Exactly!

Thank you for that honesty. As a counselor it must be tough for you to acknowledge the great odds against treating someone with N...

 

Tell me, have YOU ever personally seen or heard about (first hand experience, not read a case study) of a patient with NPD being successfully treated?

[Devil Inside]

Originally Posted by Devil Inside

...

Now NPD....whole other ballgame. This is a pervasive. It is also ego syntonic...in that the it does not cause the person pain to be this way...just everybody else. What they believe about themselves is not consistent with their self perception. This makes it very hard to treat.

 

I have a question DI. It does seem to cause some distress in the N. It seems to stress the N when the world won't function to his/her desires. Is the N not capable of seeing this as a result of their N and just as everyone else needing treatment?

 

Narcissistic wounding...when something challenges the ideal self the other self can poke through the defense...the real self, the one that feels unworthy. This hurts. However, this is more of a dynamic in a person that is mostly healthy using narcissism as a defense mechanism.

 

In NPD it is felt more as a challenge or obsession to prove they are this ideal self.

 

I think that with good treatment someone with NPD can understand this insight.

 

However that is just one peace to recovery. Insight is great...but it is worthless without motivation to do the work. If you have NPD you can understand that your NPD is the reason that you are upset when everything doe snot go your way...but there is a much stronger motivation to make it go your way then there is to buckle down and do the work necessary to fight through this and address your issues.

[2sure]

The best I can hope to achieve with my H is indifference toward him and his problem.

 

I see other women do it, women in our circles. I could, with the right motivation and compensation probably be happy in most of my life, and indifferent to the parts that included him. Its not right maybe - but , I think I'm capable of it.

 

But he - as much as he says he is willing to settle for that right now...No one can put up with that for long, especially not someone who is a black hole in need of validation.

 

I am selectively gullible, I am a romantic, hope for me does spring eternal...but I know my limits. Of that I'm sure.

 

Hey, I know he has what it takes to find his way to who he wants to be...will he do the work, No. And I know my own limits - I cannot help him, I dont have what it takes.

[Athena]

If you have NPD you can understand that your NPD is the reason that you are upset when everything doe snot go your way...

 

No wonder my husband used to get so upset when things didn't go his way. No wonder I understood that it was really important to him to have it HIS way, and time and time again, I allowed things to go his way, because I recognized that it meant a lot to him, whereas with me, I felt Flexible, and comfortable, and loving, to let him have things just the way he wanted!

[Devil Inside]

So, are you saying that if you have NPD you cannot see that you have faults and problems?

Because my H DOES now admit he's 'got a problem' (all his affairs over two marriages, spanning about 29 years of his adult life... he's 49) but he hates the label Narcissist, and says that because he HATES himself, despises himself, that he is not truly a Narcissist, and all he needs is to 'think things through' and to have "my help"... grrr

 

So, how does H not see 'his faults' and yet acknowledge that he 'has a problem' because he keeps on with his serial affairs? I am struggling to understand that

 

You see the faults...just in a different way. Like, with your H, he can see that he has a problem...however...does he see that he completely and totally screwed you over again and again, or is it just that he has a problem and almost feels entitled to your forgiveness. Because I cheated and you know what...I am not owed jack by my wife...if she kicked me in the balls I would not blame her.

 

However...maybe your husband is starting to get something from therapy. He is going to need a therapist that keeps it very real with him. This is not the kind of thing you want treated by somebody that is going to just be warm and fuzzy...you need someone with incredible balance.

 

So yeah...he may be getting the insight...that is a good sign. Now comes the hard work, getting the motivation to take the hard road...because it is much easier to feed the idealized self.

 

Also, please remember, I am speaking in general terms. The therapist that is treating the individual is going to have more information and a relationship with the person and is in a much better place to make accurate assessment then I am here.

[Devil Inside]

Devil Inside, thank you for your posts! They are very insightful. If you are still reading this thread, I have a question. Is NPD a trait you are born with or maybe just predispositioned to? I see so many of the traits in my husband, I just wonder.

 

This is my take, and there are many out there so take it for what it is...one way to look at it.

 

I think that many personality disorders are born from a combination of genetic and environmental factors.

 

So you see someone that already has a genetic predisposition to a more sensitive nervous system. So someone that had a harder time regulating emotions. They feel things more, they stay upset longer, and are upset more easily. Many people are like this...you might know some, or be one, you know people that seems to get upset at things that seem trivial or like no big deal.

 

So you take this person and put them in an invalidating environment. One where there emotions are not validated. As a child, as a baby, when this does not happen you literally feel that your life is in danger, because you rely on your parents for life. So if they are not attuned and don't validate your emotions you decide to bury those parts of you. In order to do this you develop defense mechanisms. For some these become not just occasional mechanisms but a way of life.

 

This is what I think happens with most personality disorders. Now Anti Social Personality Disorder...not sure...that one is scary.

 

Hope that helps.

[Athena]

Thanks DI, yes I do understand you are speaking in general terms..

 

BTW, my H only did the 2 mths therapy thing last year Feb -- March, moved into a new job abroad, declared himself to have gained insight, and now he KNEW WHY he had always had affairs, therefore he assured me he would NEVER cheat again...

 

... fast forward to THIS year March, he had another affair which I felt, and pressured him to admit to, which he finally did... asked why he did it again, esp. after what he had said last year... he simply said that he felt the reason why he got caught having affairs was BECAUSE HE ADMITTED THEM TO ME, and this time he made up his mind simply NOT to tell me! So he went ahead, had his treats for several weeks with this OW... and of course, I am pretty sensitive to ANY changes in H, so I knew he was up to no good again, and eventually got the truth out of him!

 

He is not continuing therapy. Hasn't been for well over a year and a half! Only did the few face-to-face sessions with a therapist of his choosing (not our MC) and a few follow up email sessions with her over that two month period 'for show' to win me back. To say he's cured. That he finally gets it... now... yes... he admits he has a problem, that he continually cheats, but says it was never his intention to Hurt me, and yes, he has a problem,but that HE needs to work through his issues on his own... sigh... good luck to him...

 

I am protecting my heart from now on out.

 

Like 2sure, I have worked on becoming indifferent to him. It took a hell of a lot for me to do that!