Narcisissism

[Devil Inside]

Exactly!

Thank you for that honesty. As a counselor it must be tough for you to acknowledge the great odds against treating someone with N...

 

Tell me, have YOU ever personally seen or heard about (first hand experience, not read a case study) of a patient with NPD being successfully treated?

 

Depends on how the treatment goals are defined. I mostly work in the field of child welfare. Most of my referrals are parents or children involved with social services.

 

I have worked with parents that have NPD. I have colleagues that do the same and we consult on a regular basis. We have all seen parents with NPD able to work through some of their issues enough to be less abusive to their children.

 

So like for your husband...his goal may be to never cheat again. I thik it is possible he accomplishes that goal. However, he will always shave a tendency to look at the word though his set of eyes. He will always shave NPD..but maybe he will no longer cheat.

[Devil Inside]

Athena and 2Sure...my heart breaks for you both. I do not want to be the murderer of hope. There is some. However, I do hope that you can find happiness again...with or without your husbands.

[2sure]

Oh no, I see that some people here have the impression that I am depressed or hopeless...maybe because of my current dark humor mode. But really, 90% of the time, I'm ok. Better than OK in fact because I'm dealing with full on reality and THAT I can do.

 

Even now, I see the big picture. In the scheme of things...all of this is just another bump in the road Ive taken. I'm still facing the same direction and thats always forward. Doors shut / windows open...its all true. I'm like that.

 

I'll move on from bitter and jaded, its not a natural mode for me.

[Athena]

Athena and 2Sure...my heart breaks for you both. I do not want to be the murderer of hope. There is some. However, I do hope that you can find happiness again...with or without your husbands.

 

Thank you DI.

 

No, you are not the killer of Hope for me -- you only reinforce what I knew in my heart... and your words do not change my plan of action, but help console me that it's in my best interests. You have helped me by being realistic about the 'odds' of change...

 

And -- a couple of years back, if ONLY my husband could have STOPPED his infidelity, we could have continued our M, even though he would continue to perceive things through his unique perspective...

[tinktronik]

No wonder my husband used to get so upset when things didn't go his way. No wonder I understood that it was really important to him to have it HIS way, and time and time again, I allowed things to go his way, because I recognized that it meant a lot to him, whereas with me, I felt Flexible, and comfortable, and loving, to let him have things just the way he wanted!

 

That is very interesting Athena. The dynamic in my R was always that he got his way because there was just no stopping him. It was never up to me to let him have his way or not.

[deux ex machina]

...So like for your husband...his goal may be to never cheat again. I thik it is possible he accomplishes that goal. However, he will always shave a tendency to look at the word though his set of eyes. He will always shave NPD..but maybe he will no longer cheat.

 

 

Yep.

 

That's why I got the will to leave.

 

My main problem was his NPD -- not the stepping out, which occured once he knew it was ending.

 

If someone can live happily with a person with NPD, more power to them. Their choice.

[Trialbyfire]

And -- a couple of years back, if ONLY my husband could have STOPPED his infidelity, we could have continued our M, even though he would continue to perceive things through his unique perspective...

If he's truly an NPDer, he won't understand the concept of stopping. It will be rationalized away unless he wanted and was dedicated to changing, through long-term IC.

 

Athena, one thing that might help, is to stop the thoughts that say "He did this to me". He didn't do this TO you. He did this FOR himself. As an ex-spouse to an NPDer, what really helped me is to realize that we, the ex-spouse or anyone else "close" to the NPDer, don't honestly count, except as a reflection of the NPDer. He values, loves and prioritizes you from the perspective of, what you can do for him and how you make him feel, in comparison to what others can do for him.

[Athena]

If someone can live happily with a person with NPD, more power to them. Their choice.

 

I don't think anyone can live happily with a person with NPD -- just to live happily 'despite' living with a person with NPD -- big difference... and, if you are in love with an NPD spouse, lets face it, it's unlikely you will be happy...

 

You either accept the person as is, and don't take their actions and words to heart (because you get hurt) and find other things/people/ to fulfill your emotional needs --> ie like 2sure said, you must become Indifferent to them, OR else leave them because you will get hurt if you still love them and take everything they say to heart... you simply cannot change them (I doubt even if THEY can change themselves!).

[movingforward]

Nope, it's not 'the joke is on you'... isn't this classically what we all try do? Repeat our families history, but this time, Try to Fix it!!!!!

 

As 2Sure's said before,

"But you know, I didn't get here by some freak accident. "

 

 

Thanks for this, Athena. You're right.... when you know better, you do better.

[deux ex machina]

I don't think anyone can live happily with a person with NPD -- just to live happily 'despite' living with a person with NPD -- big difference... and, if you are in love with an NPD spouse, lets face it, it's unlikely you will be happy...

 

You either accept the person as is, and don't take their actions and words to heart (because you get hurt) and find other things/people/ to fulfill your emotional needs --> ie like 2sure said, you must become Indifferent to them, OR else leave them because you will get hurt if you still love them and take everything they say to heart... you simply cannot change them (I doubt even if THEY can change themselves!).

 

It's a tough decision to make, no doubt about it.

 

Leaving someone I love was the hardest decision.

[Athena]

Athena, one thing that might help, is to stop the thoughts that say "He did this to me". He didn't do this TO you. He did this FOR himself.

 

Thanks for this TBF. It's true, and I do see this -- and that's why he and I both agree that he is selfish in this way (although he is capable of being very generous with material goods... esp.. if he's gonna be acknowledged, thanked, thought positively of, etc... he has this thing of doing a good in front of others... for the positive feedback reaction of ego-stroking, methinks

 

But how is it possible for a N to truly love another then? Love is not selfish

[NoIDidn't]

DI, thanks for your explanation of narcissism as a defense mechanism.

 

Sometimes I think that my mother is one, but other times I think she just has a different personality disorder. I never heard of the personality disorder as defense mechanism, but it makes sense. Doesn't change anything in our relationship (LOL), but it makes sense.

[herenow]

On paper, I would say that my H fits the NPD profile, and I would be wrong. My H is an addict. He doesn't drink, smoke or gamble, but he is an addict. Looking back there were definite signs, but nothing that caused any issues in our relationship. His early addiction to work helped him build a successful business. His addiction to be healthy helped our family be active, fit and healthy. His addiction to buying retro toys gave our kids a glimpse of my H's childhood. He always took his interests to the extreme and then, when he no longer got a high from it, he would move on to something else.

 

There are many examples I could give of obsessions throughout the years that he used to get his fix. But, eventually they all ran their course. Then came the affair. It was no different than any other addiction except is was the start of the road to self-destruction.

 

Had a therapist diagnosed him as anything other than an addict, he would have continued down that road. Addicts look for a fix so they can feel that high. Without truly accepting and dealing with the addictive behavior, they only get worse over time. There is no doubt in my mind that My H would have continued having affairs or moved on to something equally or more damaging to himself, our family and our relationship had he not started to deal with the fact that he is an addict.

 

All I'm saying is that it's takes more than a list of symptoms to diagnose a problem. I feel fortunate that we had good professional help to deal with our personal and individual problems.

[Devil Inside]

DI, thanks for your explanation of narcissism as a defense mechanism.

 

Sometimes I think that my mother is one, but other times I think she just has a different personality disorder. I never heard of the personality disorder as defense mechanism, but it makes sense. Doesn't change anything in our relationship (LOL), but it makes sense.

 

NPD and just using narcissism as a defense mechanism are similar but different.

 

In NPD narcissism has truly become how they see the world...not just an occasional reflex.

[Devil Inside]

On paper, I would say that my H fits the NPD profile, and I would be wrong. My H is an addict. He doesn't drink, smoke or gamble, but he is an addict. Looking back there were definite signs, but nothing that caused any issues in our relationship. His early addiction to work helped him build a successful business. His addiction to be healthy helped our family be active, fit and healthy. His addiction to buying retro toys gave our kids a glimpse of my H's childhood. He always took his interests to the extreme and then, when he no longer got a high from it, he would move on to something else.

 

There are many examples I could give of obsessions throughout the years that he used to get his fix. But, eventually they all ran their course. Then came the affair. It was no different than any other addiction except is was the start of the road to self-destruction.

 

Had a therapist diagnosed him as anything other than an addict, he would have continued down that road. Addicts look for a fix so they can feel that high. Without truly accepting and dealing with the addictive behavior, they only get worse over time. There is no doubt in my mind that My H would have continued having affairs or moved on to something equally or more damaging to himself, our family and our relationship had he not started to deal with the fact that he is an addict.

 

All I'm saying is that it's takes more than a list of symptoms to diagnose a problem. I feel fortunate that we had good professional help to deal with our personal and individual problems.

 

So true. Which is why everyone should take my words as a general description on the topic.

 

I too think that many people who cheat deal with their issues through addictive process.

[moaningmyrtle]

Perhaps narcissism isn't the correct term. The term does get bandied about a lot, but in the case of unrepentant OWs or OMs it may not be accurate.

 

Maybe clinical psychopathy is a better description. Fortunately, it's been studied in depth. The link outlines 20 tendencies, many of which fit the unrepentant OW profile:

 

• grandiose sense of self worth
  
• pathological lying
  
• conning/manipulative
  
• lack of remorse or guilt
  
• shallow emotional response
  
• callous/lack of empathy
  
• parasitic lifestyle
  
• poor behavioral controls
  
• promiscuous sexual behavior
  
• lack of realistic long term goals
  
• impulsivity
  
• irresponsibility
  
• failure to accept responsibility for their own actions
  
• many short term relationships
  

So perhaps the diagnosis of narcissism isn't accurate after all. Perhaps "psychopath" is a more fitting diagnosis. Maybe DI could comment, given his professional background.

 

You may be right but it does seem to me that this doesn't represent the majority of OW/OM on this board. On the other hand there are a small handful on this board that do seem to fit. I suspect we all know who they are, but because of their conning (or should than mean cunning?) and manipulative skills (a la bullet point 3) they sometimes manage to hide it under a false concern for the BW or continued reiterations that they and their MM are somehow different.

[OWoman]

Perhaps narcissism isn't the correct term. The term does get bandied about a lot, but in the case of unrepentant OWs or OMs it may not be accurate.

 

Maybe clinical psychopathy is a better description. Fortunately, it's been studied in depth. The link outlines 20 tendencies, many of which fit the unrepentant OW profile:

 

• grandiose sense of self worth
  
• pathological lying
  
• conning/manipulative
  
• lack of remorse or guilt
  
• shallow emotional response
  
• callous/lack of empathy
  
• parasitic lifestyle
  
• poor behavioral controls
  
• promiscuous sexual behavior
  
• lack of realistic long term goals
  
• impulsivity
  
• irresponsibility
  
• failure to accept responsibility for their own actions
  
• many short term relationships
  

So perhaps the diagnosis of narcissism isn't accurate after all. Perhaps "psychopath" is a more fitting diagnosis. Maybe DI could comment, given his professional background.

 

As an "unrepentant fOW" I'd say not - only one, or at most three, of those descriptors match in my case, which would make around a 10% hit rate. Hardly the stuff to confirm a diagnosis from!

 

Better luck next time, Thad!

 

Of course, tempting as it might be to attempt a diagnosis based in the single, partial sliver of anyone's life as they choose to present here, what these armchair diagnosticians forget is that IRL many of us may have been professionally profiled for whatever reason, and may thus have a fuller picture. For example, it's probably tempting for someone doing an amateur shrink impression here to dismiss an "unrepentant OW" has having little empathy, on the basis of an expressed opinion in a single situation involving a single person (unknown to the amateur shrink, who is thus unable to judge how appropriate or otherwise that might be, lacking the fuller picture info. A professional, however, conducts profiling far more systematically, and looks at behaviours and attitudes across a range of situations and contexts, and amasses evidence from a number of triangulated sources.

 

Not that that's likely to change anyone's mind. Even a rational, scientific professional process is unlikely to convince someone to shift their prejudice, when their own identity is so deeply invested in holding on tight to that prejudice.

[grogster]

As an "unrepentant fOW" I'd say not - only one, or at most three, of those descriptors match in my case, which would make around a 10% hit rate. Hardly the stuff to confirm a diagnosis from!

 

Better luck next time, Thad!

 

Of course, tempting as it might be to attempt a diagnosis based in the single, partial sliver of anyone's life as they choose to present here, what these armchair diagnosticians forget is that IRL many of us may have been professionally profiled for whatever reason, and may thus have a fuller picture. For example, it's probably tempting for someone doing an amateur shrink impression here to dismiss an "unrepentant OW" has having little empathy, on the basis of an expressed opinion in a single situation involving a single person (unknown to the amateur shrink, who is thus unable to judge how appropriate or otherwise that might be, lacking the fuller picture info. A professional, however, conducts profiling far more systematically, and looks at behaviours and attitudes across a range of situations and contexts, and amasses evidence from a number of triangulated sources.

 

Not that that's likely to change anyone's mind. Even a rational, scientific professional process is unlikely to convince someone to shift their prejudice, when their own identity is so deeply invested in holding on tight to that prejudice.

 

Well said, unrepentant fOW.

 

As a repentant fOM I couldn't agree more.Whether the DSM dart of the day is "narcissism' or "pathological"--these are not clinical descriptors but words of MORAL opprobrium.

 

Nothing wrong with the condemnation but the faux-medical language, for many of us, misses the mark.

[herenow]

I would have to agree that a "real" diagnosis would have to come from a professional who knows the real details of ones life . However, I think there are many times professionals get it wrong.

 

Many years ago my H went to see a therapist because he didn't feel fulfilled. This was between his workaholic phase and his heath nut phase. The IC told him he was clinically depressed and recommended medication. His reluctance to take any medication might have been what turned him into a heathoholic. That seemed to "cure" him until that fix ran out. Even though my H had the classic signs of an addict, the therapist didn't even think that it could be the cause of his obsessions and continued need for that "high" feeling.

 

Sometime you just have to know yourself. Most important, you have to be able to admit and accept that you have a problem in the first place. BTW, I use "you" as the global "you", not to imply anyone here has a problem.

[silktricks]

To answer the original post, I never knew the OW personally, so couldn't testify to how she seemed re: "psyco-babble". However, can testify that neither my H nor myself exhibit NPD.

[Confused4Now]

If you see these behaviors from either your affair partner or their spouse...RUN and RUN FAR....

[Turista]

Once dated a diagnosed borderline. That didn't go well, it ended, yay, they're way too self-destructive to keep anything going for long...

 

Then I met a narcissist who spent the first month of the relationship acting as the woman of my dreams before the claws and fangs were extended for the next year and a half.

 

Am I self-diagnosing her? You betcha. She knocks 13 of those signs out of the park without breaking a sweat. From constantly knocking any other woman (including her best friends and my previous girlfriends), describing herself as unlike any woman I'd ever dated, to using an expired handicapped placard to keep her illegally parked car from getting ticketed at night, to the extensive plastic surgery (breast job, some facial work, maybe even a chin implant), zero zip nada null empathy (wouldn't break her workout routine to bring my dress clothing to me whilst I was packing for an emergency trip home potentially to my father's funeral, could *never* understand the motives of anyone mad at her either), to the 3-4 nights a week of drunken partying, to 50 relationships in 26 years, to the feeling that I was more of an inconvenience she tolerated than a part of her life, to the need to constantly be surrounded by positivity lest feelings of suicide creep into her head, to breaking the relationship off without warning one night in the middle of a phone call and moving to the next victim shortly thereafter...

 

Well, she's doing just fine these days because the whole thing's a closed system designed to push all those inconvenient bad feelings away, right? And she is very pretty after all that work... Sometimes I envy her outlook...

 

But I'm 2 months out trying to clear this thing from my soul and it's taking... so... long... And yes, I am an idiot with some previously unrealized codependency issues for putting up with this. A complete and utter one. But it really was one of those things where every intermediate step seemed like a good idea at the time...

 

So you tell me, narcissist or no? I've *never* had this kind of difficulty getting over someone and I've *never* been treated this badly. So badly I wrote 2 of my previous partners and apologized for things I did once or twice 5 and 15 years ago because when they were rubbed in my face, I really felt the hurt.

[deux ex machina]

No, you're not an idiot. In fact, it is a possibility that you were one of the "lucky ones" that got chosen precisely because you must have something special about you.

 

I'm sorry this has happened.

 

Yes, you will get past it eventually. Just my opinion, though - I feel that this sort of thing requires a more proactive stance to get through it. In other words, work through it. Actually, do hard work to get past it. Therapy, ect...whatever you find works for you.

 

I totally get the envy thing. It is pretty incredible, what they can do in the short-term, and not be touched. But you do know, you must know...this is nothing to envy. They are pathetic people.

 

If classic NPD w/ no help, there is a strong tendency for them to self-destruct on an interpersonal level. Once they have burned through so many people, they end up alone and disliked, if not outright hated.

 

The important thing is taking care of the person who's been neglected and in pain for far too long - you.

[Trialbyfire]

But how is it possible for a N to truly love another then? Love is not selfish

I'm not sure N's can love like normal people. To this day, after years of therapy, my ex-H sees life and people in a different way. No matter what, I think he'll always continue to love and hate himself the most. Everything is run through the mirror of self. They can value you, even highly, but they can't really give of themselves, since there's nothing extra inside to give.

[Turista]

No, you're not an idiot. In fact, it is a possibility that you were one of the "lucky ones" that got chosen precisely because you must have something special about you.

 

I'm sorry this has happened.

 

Yes, you will get past it eventually. Just my opinion, though - I feel that this sort of thing requires a more proactive stance to get through it. In other words, work through it. Actually, do hard work to get past it. Therapy, ect...whatever you find works for you.

 

I totally get the envy thing. It is pretty incredible, what they can do in the short-term, and not be touched. But you do know, you must know...this is nothing to envy. They are pathetic people.

 

If classic NPD w/ no help, there is a strong tendency for them to self-destruct on an interpersonal level. Once they have burned through so many people, they end up alone and disliked, if not outright hated.

 

The important thing is taking care of the person who's been neglected and in pain for far too long - you.

 

Thanks, and you're right about it being ultimately a pathetic existence, but that said, my ex has optimized the lifestyle choice by living in a big city with its constant influx of fresh meat^H^H^H^Hfriends and by forming an Internet social group centered around her drinkiing binges...

 

I'm working on letting go, but alas, part of that letting go seems to be making sense of how I fell for such a scam for so long...