What is "support" in the OM/OW Forum?

[donnamaybe]

God Bless You!!! You get five point-free infractions!!!

 

Awww, come on Tony! If only you'd said all I had to do was kiss your butt, I would've been happy to!

 

Now, bend over!

 

Wait, that was OT. Am I gonna get an infraction, or am I immune now for awhile?

[Impudent Oyster]

I think that every time a BS steps on OW/OM turf, they should get banned and vice versa. It's a conflict of interests, bound to get messy.

 

 

Oh how ironic....let's take this out of cyberspace and into the real world, shall we?

 

I think that every time an OW/OM steps on BS turf, they should get banned from society. It's a conflict of interests, bound to get messy.

 

(I can't help it, the Hypocrisy of that statement is deafening).

[jwi71]

It seems to me that selfishness rules the day in this forum.

 

Its almost as if no one else matters except the APs.

BS? Most certainly not.

Children? Nope.

Families and friends? Nope.

 

Because to bring up the betrayed (spouse, children, vows (read God), families,etc) immediately earns one the "bitter" label...or "attacking" ...or "not being supportive".

 

But I am...in MY way. Here's a pretty good example:

 

To point out the MM/MW is a liar...is now projecting. Or maybe its the simple truth as doesn't an affair REQUIRE deception? Some here may say that's a given...and then you can read recent threads were the OM/OW is floored by the reconciliation. I am having trouble with the contradiction. In fact, I think outlining to the poster exactly how the MM/MW is being devious...IS helpful. After all, don't most affairs end...and not in marriage? Am I not helping the poster by trying to point that out...to spare them more lost years of their lives?

 

Why the need to attack a poster by implicating he/she is projecting and not really helping? Why attack their credibility...the only currency of this forum? See my point?

 

So...even when posters are searching for ways to continue...I will point out the best solution, imo, is to end it. There are lines I will not cross...and encouraging the continued lies, deceit, betrayal and manipulations of others for selfish (and dead-end I might add) gain is one of them. Again, referring to the above, most AP's do NOT get married. And I find few who come back and report it as pleasant. Knowing this, how can anyone say they are "supporting" when they encourage this? Its mind boggling to me.

 

I, for one, hope the decorum improves.

[gopher]

Why should support in this forum have a different definition than in any area of life, or LS for that matter.

 

To me support is not....

 

Telling someone what they want to hear...

 

Or encouraging someone to continue self destructive behavior...

 

 

ymmv

[Devil Inside]

 

To point out the MM/MW is a liar...is now projecting.

 

Again...not that fact that it is pointed out...but the way it is. Also, you missed my point. The way it is said insults the OP's judgment. The projection here is that someone may say a one line "what did you expect" is really throwing this sarcastic comment to themselves...for staying in a similar situation...with a person that has lied and cheated. Make sense?

 

Again..just my impressions. Doesn't meant that people that write this are bad. I just do not think it is helpful.

[Devil Inside]

 

Why the need to attack a poster by implicating he/she is projecting and not really helping? Why attack their credibility...the only currency of this forum? See my point?

 

 

So because someone is projecting they have no credibility?

 

I never said that. If it seemed implied I apologize.

 

I do, however, think that it is not helpful. Don't you think that people know that the MM/MW lied? I mean that is obvious. Stating the obvious in that manner comes off as attacking. Sorry to burst your bubble...it just does.

 

I do not think that people have the intentions to come off as attacking..which is why I theorize that they are projecting...which means defending their own ego state. If someone says stuff like that for another reason..then that is malicious.

 

Again..just my opinion on this topic...take it for what it's worth.

[Devil Inside]

Why should support in this forum have a different definition than in any area of life, or LS for that matter.

 

To me support is not....

 

Telling someone what they want to hear...

 

Or encouraging someone to continue self destructive behavior...

 

 

ymmv

 

They are forms of support...very effective ones I might add. However, there are others...and if they are delivered in a respectful manner than they are very helpful.

[NowhereToHide]

It seems to me that selfishness rules the day in this forum.

 

Its almost as if no one else matters except the APs.

BS? Most certainly not.

Children? Nope.

Families and friends? Nope.

 

Because to bring up the betrayed (spouse, children, vows (read God), families,etc) immediately earns one the "bitter" label...or "attacking" ...or "not being supportive".

 

But I am...in MY way. Here's a pretty good example:

 

To point out the MM/MW is a liar...is now projecting. Or maybe its the simple truth as doesn't an affair REQUIRE deception? Some here may say that's a given...and then you can read recent threads were the OM/OW is floored by the reconciliation. I am having trouble with the contradiction. In fact, I think outlining to the poster exactly how the MM/MW is being devious...IS helpful. After all, don't most affairs end...and not in marriage? Am I not helping the poster by trying to point that out...to spare them more lost years of their lives?

 

Why the need to attack a poster by implicating he/she is projecting and not really helping? Why attack their credibility...the only currency of this forum? See my point?

 

So...even when posters are searching for ways to continue...I will point out the best solution, imo, is to end it. There are lines I will not cross...and encouraging the continued lies, deceit, betrayal and manipulations of others for selfish (and dead-end I might add) gain is one of them. Again, referring to the above, most AP's do NOT get married. And I find few who come back and report it as pleasant. Knowing this, how can anyone say they are "supporting" when they encourage this? Its mind boggling to me.

 

I, for one, hope the decorum improves.

 

 

I posted on this forum which is FOR OW/OM about my situation. I asked for help, insight and advice. Much of what I received was awesome. Much of what I got was delivered in a respectful manner.

 

But because I am an MOW who has not confessed her affair, I was also ridiculed and insulted by the BS's on here (the "B" I always believed stood for "betrayed" spouse, not "bitter). It seems to me that there are a lot of BS's who come to this forum to vent their frustrations and anger at their own situation at the OWs looking for help.

 

I NEVER said I was entitled to my A. I am incredibly remorseful. My affair is over. I admitted several times that the affair was 100% my fault. I asked for help, but because of my choice not to confess my affair to my H, the BS's thought I deserved their anger.

 

As I've said before, no one wins in an affair. There is pain by every person in the "triangle", including the OW. If this forum is too painful for you to be civil, then don't post.

[Trialbyfire]

As an observation, this thread is a prime example of what happens in this forum. No matter how tactful anyone says anything, someone gets hurt and upset. If someone posts the sky is blue, there will be 10 anaecdoetal examples of cloudy days.

 

Bottom line. If you're not enabling, you're not considered supportive, except from the OW/OM/WS who've left the affair and realized what an awful situation they once were in.

[fooled once]

So because someone is projecting they have no credibility?

 

I never said that. If it seemed implied I apologize.

 

I do, however, think that it is not helpful. Don't you think that people know that the MM/MW lied? I mean that is obvious. Stating the obvious in that manner comes off as attacking. Sorry to burst your bubble...it just does.

 

I do not think that people have the intentions to come off as attacking..which is why I theorize that they are projecting...which means defending their own ego state. If someone says stuff like that for another reason..then that is malicious.

 

Again..just my opinion on this topic...take it for what it's worth.

 

To answer the bolded part; actually, no I don't think it is obvious to some. Some will swear up and down that the MM they are seeing doesn't lie.. and then when someone does say "well, does their wife know about you", it turns into "well, no, but he doesn't lie to ME". Really? He lies to the one he made vows with and married, but not to the OW?

[NowhereToHide]

As an observation, this thread is a prime example of what happens in this forum. No matter how tactful anyone says anything, someone gets hurt and upset. If someone posts the sky is blue, there will be 10 anaecdoetal examples of cloudy days.

 

Bottom line. If you're not enabling, you're not considered supportive, except from the OW/OM/WS who've left the affair and realized what an awful situation they once were in.

 

 

I never expected anyone to "enable" me in my decisions.... ever. What I was hoping for was for those with experience to share it, and those with relevant opinions to express them -- this all done without the insults.

 

If you don't agree with my decision to not tell my H, then express it, but don't continually call me a liar and a cheat and expect me to listen to your opinion. The rancor isn't necessary.

 

As an OW, the most helpful opinions have come from both other OWs and BSs that tell me what happened in their situation without judging me as a person for my situation.

[jwi71]

Again...not that fact that it is pointed out

 

I was under the impression that posters who say "what did you expect a MM/MW is liar" is projecting.

 

Wait. That IS what you said.

 

Except, I have seen MANY posts, one just this week, about an AP being floored by her MM's lies. Now, while ONE interpretation is "rubbing his/her face in it" ANOTHER might be "Wake up to what has always been in front of you". The blinders. The tunnel vision. The unverified faith of the MM/MW's honesty to the AP (when proven otherwise to the BS). I have simply seen it too many times. My experiences - my advice.

 

Projection? No. A cold douse of reality? Yes. And sometimes that is what is needed imo. You're liking on it or not...doesn't matter. Its NOT your place to judge how helpful a post is or isn't. That's for the OP to decide. Sorry...alternative viewpoints are acceptable.

 

...but the way it is. Also, you missed my point. The way it is said insults the OP's judgment.

Referencing my above reply...I disagree. I think they DO need to hear it. Sometimes the best place to hide the obvious is in plain sight. I think they overlook the very simple fact that a WS is a liar by definition and I DON'T assume they know that. Again...too many threads where the OM/OW is blindsided...

 

And I 101% agree that delivery matters.

 

The projection here is that someone may say a one line "what did you expect" is really throwing this sarcastic comment to themselves...for staying in a similar situation...with a person that has lied and cheated. Make sense?

I get it. I'm just not sure I agree. Sometimes, the poster needs the "slap in the face". The push to get angry at the MM/MW. The push to look deeper within themselves as to why they would so completely trust a liar.

If you hire a convicted embezzler to run your finances should you really be all that surprised he/she stole from YOU? How is that statement "ok" and the one pertaining to MM/MW is not?

 

Explain that to me.

 

Again..just my impressions. Doesn't meant that people that write this are bad. I just do not think it is helpful.

Fair enough. YOUR opinion. I disagree. I'll address what I meant by credibility in the post you mention it....

[jj33]

And Nowhere even if you did come here for enabling, this would be the place to come one would think and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

Noone deserves to be treated disrespectfully just because they seek assistance in dealing with the continuation of the affair.

 

This forum is not about infidelity from the betrayed spouse's point of view thats what the infidelity forum is for. So the appropriate answer to your posts (where you never asked whether you should tell your H) is not what about telling your H... That is non responsive and based on an agenda that has no place on this forum.

 

This forum is not so far as I know about "saving" people who are involved in affairs if that is not the help they are looking for.

[jwi71]

So because someone is projecting they have no credibility?

 

No...not what I meant. If I wasn't clear I apologize.

Maybe this will be better.

When a poster says "x" and you reply they are projecting and "x" it isn't helpful then you are attacking their credibility. That's what I meant.

Like I said before...the only judge as to what is or isn't helpful is the OP...no one else.

 

I hope that gets my position across better....

 

I do, however, think that it is not helpful. Don't you think that people know that the MM/MW lied?

NO. Again...read how many times the OP is "shocked"...begin to see my point on WHY its necessary...

 

I mean that is obvious.

You are assuming. My new mantra in our discussion DI is...I've read the opposite in virtually every post here in this forum...OM/OW trying to reconcile what his/her MM/MW is saying against what is being done...

 

NOT obvious.

 

Stating the obvious in that manner comes off as attacking. Sorry to burst your bubble...it just does.

Decorum matters no doubt. But the message remains valid...

 

I do not think that people have the intentions to come off as attacking..which is why I theorize that they are projecting...which means defending their own ego state. If someone says stuff like that for another reason..then that is malicious.

Why are you diagnosing replies to the original poster?

Their opinion is just as valid as your own.

[herenow]

I find that in every post, I need to state that "in my opinion" or "I think" or "based on my experience...".

Even then I'm accuse of being a bitter BW who is only trying to hurt others.

 

I'm sorry if my opinion hurts others, but that doesn't change my opinion. I have never called anyone any names, but if I imply that I feel someone is doing something I don't agree with, I'm accused of bashing.

 

Again, my opinion is just that. There have been many BW and OW that have appreciated my opinion. I guess what I don't get is why it's wrong for a BW to share an honest opinion on a sight where OW come for support? Isn't it possible that information like that can help support an OW in helping her see the whole picture?

 

I would think it would help an OW to see how the other side feels about a situation they are or have been involved in. I know it has helped me and many other BW to see the OW's POV. I may never agree with that POV, but I do have a much better understanding.

 

If the conversation isn't open and honest, how is that supportive? And, if some not so nice things are said, well that is part of the reality of the situation. Unless of course a person thinks that affairs are a nice thing for all. In that case, I really don't know what to say.

[jj33]

Herenow I think the point is what is the poster seeking when they post?

 

You may feel that they arent focusing on the full picture which includes the BS's pain, but if that is not why they are posting and it only relates to the OPs thread insofar as most all affairs involve a betrayal of the BS, then pointing those things out isnt responsive to the OP's question.

 

It may meet your goal to educate the OP, but that may have nothing to do with their question.

[norajane]

What isn't supportive are the threads that go on for dozens of pages bickering back and forth, while other threads where people are asking for help are ignored and get few replies from anyone.

[jwi71]

I posted on this forum which is FOR OW/OM about my situation. I asked for help, insight and advice. Much of what I received was awesome. Much of what I got was delivered in a respectful manner.

 

But because I am an MOW who has not confessed her affair, I was also ridiculed and insulted by the BS's on here (the "B" I always believed stood for "betrayed" spouse, not "bitter). It seems to me that there are a lot of BS's who come to this forum to vent their frustrations and anger at their own situation at the OWs looking for help.

 

I NEVER said I was entitled to my A. I am incredibly remorseful. My affair is over. I admitted several times that the affair was 100% my fault. I asked for help, but because of my choice not to confess my affair to my H, the BS's thought I deserved their anger.

 

As I've said before, no one wins in an affair. There is pain by every person in the "triangle", including the OW. If this forum is too painful for you to be civil, then don't post.

 

NTH...

 

I saw and read your thread. I think some of what you say is true and Im sorry for that.

 

I will relay to you something you might find helpful.

 

My now xW had an A. I found about it. I demanded verifiable NC and MC.

I did NOT demand a divorce. Thats not why I filed. I was willing to work on the M, work on recovery and move forward.

 

But my xW lied to me. She had more contact with him. THAT's why I divorced her...

 

just fyi...

[herenow]

Herenow I think the point is what is the poster seeking when they post?

 

You may feel that they arent focusing on the full picture which includes the BS's pain, but if that is not why they are posting and it only relates to the OPs thread insofar as most all affairs involve a betrayal of the BS, then pointing those things out isnt responsive to the OP's question.

 

It may meet your goal to educate the OP, but that may have nothing to do with their question.

 

Well, as much a I am guilty of a TJ every now and then, I do try to stay on topic. If I see a post from an OW or BW (or OM or BH for that matter) and I think I can add something based on my experience, I will. It may not be what the OW wants to hear. Since when does real support only consist of things we want to hear?

 

I have to admit, sometimes I really don't understand what the question is in some of the threads. It's not always clear what a poster is asking for, so I just give an opinion about what I think they are asking.

 

I there is ever a thread that said, I just want answers from OW, I promise I won't post on it. But, this is a public forum and if I feel I can add to a thread, I'll post.

[NowhereToHide]

I find that in every post, I need to state that "in my opinion" or "I think" or "based on my experience...".

Even then I'm accuse of being a bitter BW who is only trying to hurt others.

 

I'm sorry if my opinion hurts others, but that doesn't change my opinion. I have never called anyone any names, but if I imply that I feel someone is doing something I don't agree with, I'm accused of bashing.

 

Again, my opinion is just that. There have been many BW and OW that have appreciated my opinion. I guess what I don't get is why it's wrong for a BW to share an honest opinion on a sight where OW come for support? Isn't it possible that information like that can help support an OW in helping her see the whole picture?

 

I would think it would help an OW to see how the other side feels about a situation they are or have been involved in. I know it has helped me and many other BW to see the OW's POV. I may never agree with that POV, but I do have a much better understanding.

 

If the conversation isn't open and honest, how is that supportive? And, if some not so nice things are said, well that is part of the reality of the situation. Unless of course a person thinks that affairs are a nice thing for all. In that case, I really don't know what to say.

 

 

HereNow... with all due respect, I have read some of your posts where you were pretty harsh and engaging in insults with another member (stillafool maybe?) towards an OW (movingfoward I think, I'm not sure).

 

I have received great advice from some BSs (Aquarius and Sunflower for starters) that related to me their experiences without judgement. I understand that some of the situations on these forums where you read that betrayals are going on could be hard for you based on you being a BS yourself. But if you can't HELP the OP, then don't post (and by HELP I mean addressing the issue at hand).

 

As DI has said, if you can't offer advice based on what the OP is asking (or if you are too angry from your own situation) then DON'T POST. This IS a board for the OW/OM. The infidelity board is there for the BS if they're not finding relevant posts here.

[Trialbyfire]

What isn't supportive are the threads that go on for dozens of pages bickering back and forth, while other threads where people are asking for help are ignored and get few replies from anyone.

Good point!

[moaningmyrtle]

I am amazed that it has generated such a response while I've been asleep overnight.

 

I intended to summarise all the responses if only to clarify for myself, but I would not be able to do justice to all the viewpoints expressed and all the variations in nuances.

 

It was great to hear from a moderator too.

 

I would really like if possible for the discussion to remain on the Forum for future reference, if only so people can see that there is such a variety of views on what constitutes "support".

 

That will probably only happen if discussion remains civil and there is no reason for the thread to be removed - that of course is up to the posters.

 

Thank you again

 

Myrtle

[jj33]

Herenow I think you add a lot i wasnt suggesting you dont. I usually like your posts (not that my opinion matters but I do) what I meant and this wasnt directed at you per se is that everyone posts from their own perspective to a large degree, but sometimes what we feel someone should hear or needs to hear isnt really related to what they are asking about (prime example Nowhere to Hide and her decision to tell her spouse).

[herenow]

HereNow... with all due respect, I have read some of your posts where you were pretty harsh and engaging in insults with another member (stillafool maybe?) towards an OW (movingfoward I think, I'm not sure).

 

Have you read any of my other posts or am I just being judge on a situation where someone just didn't agree with my opinion no matter how many times I stated that "it's my opinion"? I never told her she should handle her life any differently than she is.

 

That is not my place and I would never and never have told anyone how to life their lives. I can only say what I would do. It anyone's prerogative to disagree. But just because a person disagree, doesn't mean I have to or will change my opinion.

[moaningmyrtle]

Herenow I think you add a lot i wasn't suggesting you dont. I usually like your posts (not that my opinion matters but I do) what I meant and this wasnt directed at you per se is that everyone posts from their own perspective to a large degree, but sometimes what we feel someone should hear or needs to hear isnt really related to what they are asking about (prime example Nowhere to Hide and her decision to tell her spouse).

 

Sometimes though a question can be asked in such a way as to "guide" (I can't think of a better word) the person responding.

 

For example "I am in love with my best friend's husband and I've decide I'm going to have an affair with him. Should we use condoms?"

 

This only requires a yes or no answer, but many would have difficulty not addressing the underlying issue. Dose "support" means only confining oneself to answering the actual question asked or does it extend to the underlying issues?

 

I would think that a black and white rule that only the thing being asked about can be addressed, actually goes against the idea of providing support.