Do you guys like this kind of porn?

[RobM]

So you can dish it out but you can't take it Rob?

 

I see in addition to losing your sense of humor, your sarcasm detector is broken too.

[Jersey Shortie]

Are female masturbation vids misogynistic as well?

 

I've never seen a female masturbation video.

 

I see in addition to losing your sense of humor, your sarcasm detector is broken too.

 

But I totally picked up on your mellow comment. Play nice Rob.

[RobM]

But I totally picked up on your mellow comment. Play nice Rob.

 

I didn't know we were playing, I always play nice.

[Jersey Shortie]

Then you would let me be the Scottish Dog in Monoply?

[RobM]

Then you would let me be the Scottish Dog in Monoply?

 

Sure, can I be the car?

[truffes]

Oh boy. Porn always opens up a can of worms for people.

 

Rough sex and BDSM porn are more common than before because the porn industry is constantly evolving and looking for the next big kink, the next flavor-of-the-moment thing that makes people buy. That genre of porn has not replaced mainstream porn, the vast majority of the porn produced in "the valley" (that's the mecca of porn, for you outsiders) is still "mainstream". I'm not talking about "gonzo" amateur productions (there are too many of these to be fully regulated) or European porn (which has always been more over the top, German stuff has been crazy since the 1930s). Top American porn companies such as Vivid and Digital Playground specialize in top-notch productions that rival Hollywood creations. One of the best selling porn videos in the past two years (the Pirates series) doesn't feature beatings and gagging. It does feature some big-budget costumes and sets. It also comes in an R rated version, least you think the industry is getting more and more sleazy.

 

As for violence against women, there's been a lot of reform in the industry in the past decade. Unlike Hollywood, the porn industry is more respectful towards woman. While it still has ways to go, women are viewed as the bosses. They earn more money (over $2,000 per scene, as opposed to mere hundreds for men), they can chose their co-stars (only men like Rocco Siffredi can choose), they have vastly more chances to be contract stars (contracts pay around $100,000/year for 2 or 3 films), women are in demand no matter their age/weight/etc (there's a market for everything). And there's never going to be a male equivalent of a Jenna Jameson in the business, ya know? Plus, there are tons of women behind the scenes (the boss at Digital is a lady!). Once again, yes, there are a few bad apples in the form of one-film production companies, where the women can end up in trouble. But that happens in Hollywood as well, if you end up on the set of a less than reputable producer, you can easily end up on the casting couch over and over again. Most porn stars, however, like most successful actresses, have managers and agents looking out for them (would you want your star to get injured or abused and leave the business?).

 

One of the biggest and most successful distributors of "hardcore porn" (which includes torture scenes, gangbangs, etc) is Kink. 50% of their employees are female (who have great benefits and an awesome salary). Are all of these women filled with issues? Some might be, but I doubt all of them are. And the actresses of the 80s have been replaced with new stars. Ladies like Sasha Grey and Belladonna specialize in some extremely hardcore stuff and they have their **** together. Belladonna could kick the ass of anyone who tries to mess with her. Sasha invests her money in property, not cocaine. Porn is more mainstream than ever (that's why you hear more people talking about kinky stuff!), these ladies are serious about business.

 

As for men that watch hardcore scenes, I've encountered tons of them. None of them have been disrespectful to me. My boyfriend enjoys watching really rough blowjobs, he doesn't force me to give them though. As an adult, he can separate fiction from reality. Men in my age group (early 20s) are no more disrespectful than men in their 40s (who didn't grow up on internet porn). There will always be some men who can't be mature, this applies to women as well. It's just my opinion, but I don't think the vast majority of men are running around like sex fiends because they're exposed to a lot of internet porn. I think it's good that more people are getting exposed to stuff that's out of the ordinary. Pooping on people, rape-play, forced blowjobs didn't just "appear" in the last decade. They've been around for a very long time (Marquis de Sade, anyone?). It's just that now these fetishes have come out of the dark alleyway and that's not necessarily a bad thing. A young man doesn't just wake up and decide to beat the **** out of his girlfriend because he saw a video of it.

 

I'm not an expert on the subject by any means, but I am (was...before this dreadful economy, haha) in the industry. I don't work in front of the camera, I used to handle the business side of it for some ladies like Stoya and the AMAZING Sasha Grey. So all this is just firsthand experience. I also enjoy S&M and the gagging blowjobs and everything. I was never abused, don't do drugs, don't drink, and grew up in a perfectly healthy upper middle-class home. My relationships have been fairly normal and my current one is full of mutual respect and love. My partner would never hurt me on purpose.

 

I'm just sick and tired of people blaming dumb stuff on this industry and S&M without experiencing it firsthand (a day on a porn set for a major studio would change a ton of people's opinions, it's just like a regular movie set!).

 

/End Rant.

[A O]

^ ^ ^

Interesting post truffes.

 

Are you going to stick to the topic or try to give me legal advice that you are clearly unqualified to give? I am actually now amused because of your clear diversionary ploy here.

My advice was given in good faith. You don't have to be a lawyer to recognize discrimination, you use lawyers to do something about it. So, if you truly believe that a co-worker is getting paid more than you simply because he's a man, and no other factors, then you have a legitimate grievance. I'll leave it at that.

 

I think Des is a woman but I could be wrong. Either way, does it matter?

No.

 

As for your other "points". I am not going to go around in circles with you again. You're quite pointless to talk to.

Always the charmer....

 

.

[Jersey Shortie]

Thank you AO, I am quite charming.

 

 

Rough sex and BDSM porn are more common than before because the porn industry is constantly evolving and looking for the next big kink, the next flavor-of-the-moment thing that makes people buy. That genre of porn has not replaced mainstream porn, the vast majority of the porn produced in "the valley" (that's the mecca of porn, for you outsiders) is still "mainstream".

 

Are are you defining "mainstream" porn as? I think many people today probably consider "rough sex" porn "mainstream". Because like you said, people in the industry are always looking to push the envelop to heighten the titilation.

 

One of the best selling porn videos in the past two years (the Pirates series) doesn't feature beatings and gagging. It does feature some big-budget costumes and sets. It also comes in an R rated version, least you think the industry is getting more and more sleazy.

 

How do you know this movie is the best selling?

 

Yes, the industry is getting more sleazy. Which is pretty amazing considering how sleazy it is to start.

 

As for violence against women, there's been a lot of reform in the industry in the past decade. Unlike Hollywood, the porn industry is more respectful towards woman.

 

Is that's why society as a whole gives alot more respect to Kicole Kidman then Jemma Jamison? I am also unclear what reform you are trying to reference. The general agreement is that porn has gotten more graphic, demeaning and hardcore. Unlike porn, Hollywood doesn't ask the females to bend over and take it up the ass while she gets called names.

 

 

While it still has ways to go, women are viewed as the bosses. They earn more money (over $2,000 per scene, as opposed to mere hundreds for men), they can chose their co-stars (only men like Rocco Siffredi can choose), they have vastly more chances to be contract stars (contracts pay around $100,000/year for 2 or 3 films), women are in demand no matter their age/weight/etc (there's a market for everything). And

 

That's not the way alot of the women in the industry tell it.

 

Statisically, women in the porn industry last between 6 months to a year. There is such high turn over, not because these women made fabulous money and can now move on but because the price on women emotionally and physically is very grueling. Jemma Jamison and her success is not the standard. It's the 1 in million. Alot of these women end up physically damanged and were already emotionally dammanged to begin with to even be in the industry.

 

Women earn more money in the industry, not because they are the bosses, but because it takes more to get women to do that in the first place. Because of what women's real nature is. Men would screw anything for free. It is about the demand in that regard. You have to pay women more to get them to do the things men want to see. That doesn't take brain surgery to figure out why.

 

And yes, there most certainly is a market for everything. However, I think we all know what kind of woman is most in demand and what is most protrayed in porn. Porn isn't exactly about equality. So lets try not to pretend it is. Or that it doesn't infact protray women stereotypically in a very limited role and body type.

 

t

here's never going to be a male equivalent of a Jenna Jameson in the business, ya know?

 

Umm hello, I don't have to even watch porn to know who Ron Jeremy is! Men don't care about other men and don't focus on them. Men are the ones that mostly have feed the porn industry. Of course there wouldn't be another male equivelent of Jenna Jameson that received the same kind of attention she does. Because men don't care about focusing on other men.

 

(would you want your star to get injured or abused and leave the business?).

 

Most women don't last a year in the industry. It's a very high turnover. And in that time, the woman are asked to do increasing demeaning and hardcore acts. The agents don't give a damnb about the "stars". There is always another new face around the corner. And it's easy to get an eager, navie , down on her luck girl in a movie.

 

Ladies like Sasha Grey and Belladonna specialize in some extremely hardcore stuff and they have their **** togethe

 

I actually know who Sash Grey is. I saw an interview with her on Tyra Banks. I think that girl has major issues. No one lets random men do the acts she lets men do to her and feels good about herself. However, she is very good about projecting a certain image that is going to keep her selling videos. You don't think that a porn actress trying to make money in the industry is really going to let you into the real world do you? She is a fantasy. She is trying to sell a fantasy. She came from a broken home. I don't think your ability to be successful in the porn industy means you have your stuff together. Jenna Jaminson infact has inteviews about her own broken childhood and was actually a lesbian wasn't she because she saw the worse in men in the industry she chose to do.

 

Porn is more mainstream than ever (that's why you hear more people talking about kinky stuff!), these ladies are serious about business.

 

That's what is so disturbing. Sex is wonderful, getting into some fun stuff is great. But I think people are pretty ignorant to think that we live in a culture about over-indulgence and that it doesn't include our culture over indulgence in porn. Too many men out there rather sit infront of their computers thinking about the million different interchangable computer images then engage in real life. It's an escape. And it's sad to see that this is what modern man has let himself become. *shrug.

 

As for men that watch hardcore scenes, I've encountered tons of them. None of them have been disrespectful to me. My boyfriend enjoys watching really rough blowjobs, he doesn't force me to give them though. As an adult, he can separate fiction from reality.

 

I always find the argument about being able to sepate fiction from reality to be really interesting. Because the fantasy about porn is all about having people buy into what they are selling. And if it envokes feelings and emotions, which it does, it is realistically tricking a part of the mind. Now we all know what fiction and reality means. We can all determine that unicorns aren't real. But we aren't talking about unicorns. We are talking about real people being depicted doing real acts that has become a billion dollar industry that realistically, more and more men request acts of "fantasy" to their wives or girlfriends. I have no doubt that we can all tell each other what fantasy is and what reality is. I also have no doubt that the reason that fantasy is so enjoyable is because of it's ability to "trick" the mind into enjoying what it thinks it offers. We aren't taking about Lord of the Rings here. We are talking about real people engaging in real acts.

 

 

Men in my age group (early 20s) are no more disrespectful than men in their 40s (who didn't grow up on internet porn).

 

Actually, I am in my mid 20s and I do find 20s men more disrespectful.

 

A young man doesn't just wake up and decide to beat the **** out of his girlfriend because he saw a video of it.

 

Of course not. But years upon years upon years of porn viewing does infact affect people. If men are seeing more increased and violent porn, then that will become the norm. And I see no problem why men and their respect for women shouldn't be questioned.

 

I'm not an expert on the subject by any means, but I am (was...before this dreadful economy, haha) in the industry. I don't work in front of the camera, I used to handle the business side of it for some ladies like Stoya and the AMAZING Sasha Grey. So all this is just firsthand experience. I also enjoy S&M and the gagging blowjobs and everything. I was never abused, don't do drugs, don't drink, and grew up in a perfectly healthy upper middle-class home. My relationships have been fairly normal and my current one is full of mutual respect and love. My partner would never hurt me on purpose.

 

WHy didn't you work infront of the camera?

 

I think you are of a very limited minority of women.

 

 

I'm just sick and tired of people blaming dumb stuff on this industry and S&M without experiencing it firsthand (a day on a porn set for a major studio would change a ton of people's opinions, it's just like a regular movie set!)

.

 

I'm sure it is just like how a regular movie is made. Cameras, people, lightening...I don't think it would change as many people's minds as you would like to believe. Your sick and tired of people blaming dumb stuff on the industry..i am sick and tired of people justifying things and defending an industry that to me, and even alot of men and women, is degrading as whole to women.

[truffes]

 

 

 

Are are you defining "mainstream" porn as? I think many people today probably consider "rough sex" porn "mainstream". Because like you said, people in the industry are always looking to push the envelop to heighten the titilation.

 

 

 

How do you know this movie is the best selling?

 

Yes, the industry is getting more sleazy. Which is pretty amazing considering how sleazy it is to start.

 

 

 

Is that's why society as a whole gives alot more respect to Kicole Kidman then Jemma Jamison? I am also unclear what reform you are trying to reference. The general agreement is that porn has gotten more graphic, demeaning and hardcore. Unlike porn, Hollywood doesn't ask the females to bend over and take it up the ass while she gets called names.

 

 

 

 

That's not the way alot of the women in the industry tell it.

 

Statisically, women in the porn industry last between 6 months to a year. There is such high turn over, not because these women made fabulous money and can now move on but because the price on women emotionally and physically is very grueling. Jemma Jamison and her success is not the standard. It's the 1 in million. Alot of these women end up physically damanged and were already emotionally dammanged to begin with to even be in the industry.

 

Women earn more money in the industry, not because they are the bosses, but because it takes more to get women to do that in the first place. Because of what women's real nature is. Men would screw anything for free. It is about the demand in that regard. You have to pay women more to get them to do the things men want to see. That doesn't take brain surgery to figure out why.

 

And yes, there most certainly is a market for everything. However, I think we all know what kind of woman is most in demand and what is most protrayed in porn. Porn isn't exactly about equality. So lets try not to pretend it is. Or that it doesn't infact protray women stereotypically in a very limited role and body type.

 

 

Umm hello, I don't have to even watch porn to know who Ron Jeremy is! Men don't care about other men and don't focus on them. Men are the ones that mostly have feed the porn industry. Of course there wouldn't be another male equivelent of Jenna Jameson that received the same kind of attention she does. Because men don't care about focusing on other men.

 

 

Most women don't last a year in the industry. It's a very high turnover. And in that time, the woman are asked to do increasing demeaning and hardcore acts. The agents don't give a damnb about the "stars". There is always another new face around the corner. And it's easy to get an eager, navie , down on her luck girl in a movie.

 

 

 

I actually know who Sash Grey is. I saw an interview with her on Tyra Banks. I think that girl has major issues. No one lets random men do the acts she lets men do to her and feels good about herself. However, she is very good about projecting a certain image that is going to keep her selling videos. You don't think that a porn actress trying to make money in the industry is really going to let you into the real world do you? She is a fantasy. She is trying to sell a fantasy. She came from a broken home. I don't think your ability to be successful in the porn industy means you have your stuff together. Jenna Jaminson infact has inteviews about her own broken childhood and was actually a lesbian wasn't she because she saw the worse in men in the industry she chose to do.

 

 

 

That's what is so disturbing. Sex is wonderful, getting into some fun stuff is great. But I think people are pretty ignorant to think that we live in a culture about over-indulgence and that it doesn't include our culture over indulgence in porn. Too many men out there rather sit infront of their computers thinking about the million different interchangable computer images then engage in real life. It's an escape. And it's sad to see that this is what modern man has let himself become. *shrug.

 

 

 

I always find the argument about being able to sepate fiction from reality to be really interesting. Because the fantasy about porn is all about having people buy into what they are selling. And if it envokes feelings and emotions, which it does, it is realistically tricking a part of the mind. Now we all know what fiction and reality means. We can all determine that unicorns aren't real. But we aren't talking about unicorns. We are talking about real people being depicted doing real acts that has become a billion dollar industry that realistically, more and more men request acts of "fantasy" to their wives or girlfriends. I have no doubt that we can all tell each other what fantasy is and what reality is. I also have no doubt that the reason that fantasy is so enjoyable is because of it's ability to "trick" the mind into enjoying what it thinks it offers. We aren't taking about Lord of the Rings here. We are talking about real people engaging in real acts.

 

 

 

 

Actually, I am in my mid 20s and I do find 20s men more disrespectful.

 

 

 

Of course not. But years upon years upon years of porn viewing does infact affect people. If men are seeing more increased and violent porn, then that will become the norm. And I see no problem why men and their respect for women shouldn't be questioned.

 

 

 

WHy didn't you work infront of the camera?

 

I think you are of a very limited minority of women.

 

 

.

 

I'm sure it is just like how a regular movie is made. Cameras, people, lightening...I don't think it would change as many people's minds as you would like to believe. Your sick and tired of people blaming dumb stuff on the industry..i am sick and tired of people justifying things and defending an industry that to me, and even alot of men and women, is degrading as whole to women.

 

"Mainstream porn" is actually pretty well defined in the industry. It typically involves an act of vaginal penetration, anal penetration, and a blowjob that may or may not involve a "money shot" on the face. It's stuff that most couples do (you might disagree about the anal sex part but there are many people who enjoy it immensely and prefer it over vaginal penetration). Mainstream porn does not involve whipping, forced blowjobs, etc. That is part of the "S&M" genre and considered part of the niche market (Bang Bros, One Night in Paris, Pam & Tommy Lee, The Devil in Miss Jones are mainstream, they are not S&M). It is marketed in a very specific way and typically never reaches the numbers of a mainstream dvd in terms of sales. There's only been one that has and it's Fashionistas, which is a high-budget porn involving the domination of both women and the male lead (Rocco Siffredi). Mainstream porn actresses (the blonde big-breasted ones) don't tend to cross over into niche markets. BDSM stars are in a category by themselves and don't do mainstream stuff because it doesn't interest them.

 

Porn movies are tracked the same way that regular movies and CDs are. I know you have it in your mind that these porn companies are in people's basements and only interest men with dirty minds. Hate to break the fantasy image for you. AVN keeps track of porn sales, individual studios keep track of porn sales, and so do top-selling porn shops. It's a multi-billion dollar business that's very calculated and precise.

 

As for sleazy stuff, that's YOUR opinion. What doesn't appeal to you, appeals to others and vice versa. Do you view a sex act in a rated R movie differently from a porn? Why? Because they show a close-up of a vagina and a penis? If seeing human body parts upsets you, you might want to go figure out why.

 

Jenna Jameson is viewed in the same way in Hollywood as Nicole Kidman. My boyfriend works in mainstream Hollywood and a casting director wanted her to make a cameo in a show. He called her agent and tried to arrange it, the same way he would have with Nicole Kidman. Jenna has been the face of numerous campaigns. And her net worth is considerably more than that of Nicole Kidman.

 

Statistically, female actresses never break into the business and end up as waitresses and/or moving back from where they came from. 98% of female pop singers signed to major labels will never recoup their losses and be forced out of the industry with a vast amount of debt owed to the studio. Women who enter the industry are aware of what they're entering into and understand that they will be working in entertainment, a field that is incredibly fickle. When you sign onto a porn film, you sign a contract with the understanding that you know what you're doing. In every field of entertainment you will find those that have been mistreated and cannot handle the pressures of the business. That is why people in all forms of entertainment develop drug and alcohol addictions. This is not exclusive to the porn community. The only difference is that the porn community watches their actresses...there are mandatory STD tests and actresses with known alcohol and drug addictions are often NOT rehired (we kept a "blacklist" of people that were deemed unreliable and erratic). Trust me, before you film your first film (once again, not talking about filming with some sleazy guy in his basement, but a real film under contract) you get a talk-through by a ton of people to prepare you. And no one forces you to do anything you don't want to. The money you make is proportional to what you want to do. A porn star can safely earn around $50,000 doing only lesbian acts like kissing and touching and if she doesn't do too many movies, her career can last for a couple of years.

 

You saw Sasha on Tyra Banks. A show that was purposely edited in a way to make Sasha look exploited. Tyra is a disgustingly hypocritical individual (she's a former fashion model, an industry that takes 14 year old girls and turns them inside out for a profit), she brought Sasha out on the show to mock her and didn't allow her to defend herself. She said that Sasha would never amount to much. Ever since that show aired, Sasha has been in Rolling Stone, has done a modeling campaign, and starred in an acclaimed feature length film. She currently owns her own home and car, as well as her own management company. It's safe to say that she's pretty set. Sasha is 22 years old. What have YOU done with your life? She makes the rest of us look like lazy asses by comparison. I know her personally and I know that she really loves sex and performing and pushing boundaries (all that dirty talk she does in films? she writes it herself. I've actually seen editors edit her to make her seem tamer). How boring life would be if we kept everything behind closed doors. Sasha is no different from the Britney Spears, Jessica Simpsons, Lindsay Lohans of this world. If you think that Hollywood actresses don't trade sex for jobs, you're very sadly misinformed.

 

 

What people choose to see in the privacy of their own homes is none of your business. Why is it important if your neighbor is into scat? Everyone has kinks. Some people really like feet, others are into erotic asphyxiation. Isn't it nice that whatever gets YOU off you can find online? If your fantasy involves red roses and sensual massages, that's awesome, more power to you! But my fantasy involves rape play and whips and gagging on a cock. Instead of feeling ashamed of that, I indulge and than go back to living my normal life. Finding out what you enjoy and exploring that is part of a healthy sexuality. Do you view the kama sutra as sleazy and disgusting? It depicts pretty graphic positions.

 

The men you talk about who spend their time in front of the computer all the time are addicts. Some people have an addictive personality. If they don't find porn, they find booze. If they don't find booze, they find drugs. If they don't find drugs, they become dependent on a person. You get the picture. Porn addiction is NOT the norm, despite what you think. There are some great articles on porn published by the Kinsey institute, you should look into them.

 

What degrading acts are you talking about? Blowjobs? Anal? If they're degrading to you, don't do them! And if your partner doesn't respect that, get another one! Some people don't view those acts as degrading and enjoy them and get turned on by them. Many more than you suspect, because people don't usually come into work and say "HEY EVERYONE, I JUST WACKED OFF TO SOME PEOPLE ****TING AND PISSING ON EACH OTHER". Have you ever thought about the fact that some people really enjoy having sex on camera? There are women in the industry who orgasm during their scenes.

 

I never worked in front of the camera because I can't relax at all in front of a camera. I hate cameras. I would never want to do anything, acting or singing, that involved a camera. It's just not my thing. It's not because I was ashamed. And if you think that all the women in the porn industry do is have sex on camera, you're wrong. I originally wanted to work in marketing for mainstream entertainment and music in NYC. I found that it was extremely sexist and so set in its ways that it was ridiculous. I turned to porn because I saw female directors, female producers, female executives. There are WAYYYYY more women behind the scenes in the industry than there are in Hollywood. Check out this article:

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28022805

 

PS- While Ron Jeremy is one of the most recognized porn stars of all time, he has nowhere near the financial success and authority in the industry that Jenna Jameson or any of the top 5 actresses have. Please, if you're going to give names, KNOW something about them. If you want to talk about "successful male porn stars that can compete with Jenna Jameson" you'd be wise to mention Rocco Siffredi.

[Els]

I've never seen a female masturbation video.

 

What, you've seen the types of videos mentioned in this OP but you've never seen a female masturbation video!?!

[kizik]

I don't particularly like the rough or gagging porn. There's this "line" of porn, actually, called Vivian Thomas and they accentuate the "lovemaking" in sex, which turns me on. Call me a softie but only in ways of the heart.

[Des]

So - what can we do about this?

 

Equality. Not equality in the sense of an equal opportunity employer, equality from a larger, more social standpoint. Men and women are not often seen as equal in this regard. This is at the root of all things like racism, sexism, homophobia, etc... The belief that a certain kind of person is not an equal to oneself, because of their differences, which in turn leads to the ability to write-off said person, whom they believe are innately different or the complete opposite of themselves to an unrelatable or apathetic level, as somehow less human, or inferior. We live in a male dominanted society that puts a strong emphasis on the differences of men and women, tends to push them as "opposites", and tends to drive them apart with distinction.

 

The result being the model of sexism, objectification and debasement being discussed here...

 

The first step would be a universal acceptance of the very existence of this problem. And so long as the entities that perpetuate these problems persist, that is not likely. Instead, conditions will worsen, and people will continue to fight and reject those who try an address them.

 

The fashion industry ring any bells?

 

Okay, another largely male ran industry that objectifies by emphasizing merely on the physical aspects and appearances of women...

 

attraction is both natural and essential for the survival of most species.

 

My point still holds - Not in the form that we have created, this is the problem.

 

What would you recommend a reasonable threshold to be?

 

I've already answer this reasonably, you need to go back and read again.

 

Actually, not only did you imply it, you said it.and I quoted as much. Porn is entirely about male gratification. Those are your very words.

 

Refer back to page 16, where I first said:

 

"There is no denying that it is entirely about male gratification"

 

Taking quotes out of context? This is what it has come to? Within the context of what I said just before that - "The kind of porn originally discussed in this thread is really only one example of it", referring to said porn obviously.

 

I'm not interested in playing victim. I am interested in putting forth the full picture however.

 

Sure you are, your full picture being that men are also capable of being victims, as if that makes up for anything.

 

My point is though, I am not seeing a degradation of society, namely of attitudes from young men towards young women in the real world.

 

Then you stand alone, and I find that hard to believe. I've seen it, others posting here have said they've seen it. Not a drastic effect, because it's not an overnight thing, but rather a trending change. Just ask any older, more observational person who's lived to see a change within the past few decades. To those who are really looking, the differences just in the last decade are apparent enough.

 

Few people actually ever consider objectification in its truest sense

 

This was one of my points to begin with, people don't have to look at in one way or another, they rarely even acknowledge it, because it has become such a normalized part of our culture and society.

[Des]

What, you've seen the types of videos mentioned in this OP but you've never seen a female masturbation video!?!

 

You'd be surprised at which is more common to come across when one is browsing general porn.

[A O]

The belief that a certain kind of person is not an equal to oneself, because of their differences, which in turn leads to the ability to write-off said person, whom they believe are innately different or the complete opposite of themselves to an unrelatable or apathetic level, as somehow less human, or inferior.

Well, I thank you for your effort, interesting point of view. Can't say I go along with it primarily because I don't see people as being any less or more equal to me. I'm big on acknowledging, embracing and celebrating the differences between the sexes but these differences does not make anyone any more or less equal in my eyes.

 

Then you stand alone, and I find that hard to believe. I've seen it, others posting here have said they've seen it. Not a drastic effect, because it's not an overnight thing, but rather a trending change. Just ask any older, more observational person who's lived to see a change within the past few decades. To those who are really looking, the differences just in the last decade are apparent enough.

The solutions I offered earlier on to this 'change' is evidence enough that I clearly see and acknowledge the problems that porn potentially presents to women especially. However, whether this change translates into a negative change in behavior and attitude towards women is highly contentious. I base this on the fact there's very little real or reported evidence that suggests a change of attitude or behavior has actually occurred. Lots of hearsay, lots of conjecture but very little, if any, hardcore proof to back up these views. I also base my stance on the very rarely talked about angle of - women themselves - being the arbiter of behavior that's acceptable or not to them. It's not something that's talked about a lot here, but if you're a big believer in equality, then you'll have great faith in the ability of women to self-regulate how they wish to be treated and or viewed.

 

.

[Jersey Shortie]

Well, I thank you for your effort, interesting point of view. Can't say I go along with it primarily because I don't see people as being any less or more equal to me. I'm big on acknowledging, embracing and celebrating the differences between the sexes but these differences does not make anyone any more or less equal in my eyes.

 

AO, I agree with you that it's good to celebrate the differences and it doesn't make anyone more or less equal or better. However, there are many men out there, you excluded by your own words, that do look down on women for just being women and don't respect the things that make women women beyond their t&a. And you can see that reflected through society in general and most obviously, in porn. You respect women and that's great. But i've heard enough men talk through the years, whether they thought i could hear or not, to know there is a rampet feeling of disrsepect for women amongst many men. And those feelings and exmaples are over examplified in things like porn, where the main supporter of it is men. It's not so cool to see how many men with wives, gfs, daughterse and families like seeing women utterly degraded and disrespected just so they get off. I am not so navie to think it's ever going to stop either. But the fact is, you men don't live in a world where your wives, gfs and the other women of your life are on a constant hunt for other men, visually or otherwise. So good for you that you respect women. But I would say more men don't then do. And the way men talk about women and to women plain sucks often. Celebrating the differences in women has NOTHING to do with yoru abilibity to enjoy or watch a porn. If you and other men REALLY want to celebrate women, you'd be celebrating them for all the things they (we) are that have nothing to do with sex. Let me repeat, celebrating women isn't watching a porno. And if you think it is, that is so freaking sad.

[bluewolf17]

Oh boy. Porn always opens up a can of worms for people.

 

Rough sex and BDSM porn are more common than before because the porn industry is constantly evolving and looking for the next big kink, the next flavor-of-the-moment thing that makes people buy. That genre of porn has not replaced mainstream porn, the vast majority of the porn produced in "the valley" (that's the mecca of porn, for you outsiders) is still "mainstream". I'm not talking about "gonzo" amateur productions (there are too many of these to be fully regulated) or European porn (which has always been more over the top, German stuff has been crazy since the 1930s). Top American porn companies such as Vivid and Digital Playground specialize in top-notch productions that rival Hollywood creations. One of the best selling porn videos in the past two years (the Pirates series) doesn't feature beatings and gagging. It does feature some big-budget costumes and sets. It also comes in an R rated version, least you think the industry is getting more and more sleazy.

 

As for violence against women, there's been a lot of reform in the industry in the past decade. Unlike Hollywood, the porn industry is more respectful towards woman. While it still has ways to go, women are viewed as the bosses. They earn more money (over $2,000 per scene, as opposed to mere hundreds for men), they can chose their co-stars (only men like Rocco Siffredi can choose), they have vastly more chances to be contract stars (contracts pay around $100,000/year for 2 or 3 films), women are in demand no matter their age/weight/etc (there's a market for everything). And there's never going to be a male equivalent of a Jenna Jameson in the business, ya know? Plus, there are tons of women behind the scenes (the boss at Digital is a lady!). Once again, yes, there are a few bad apples in the form of one-film production companies, where the women can end up in trouble. But that happens in Hollywood as well, if you end up on the set of a less than reputable producer, you can easily end up on the casting couch over and over again. Most porn stars, however, like most successful actresses, have managers and agents looking out for them (would you want your star to get injured or abused and leave the business?).

 

One of the biggest and most successful distributors of "hardcore porn" (which includes torture scenes, gangbangs, etc) is Kink. 50% of their employees are female (who have great benefits and an awesome salary). Are all of these women filled with issues? Some might be, but I doubt all of them are. And the actresses of the 80s have been replaced with new stars. Ladies like Sasha Grey and Belladonna specialize in some extremely hardcore stuff and they have their **** together. Belladonna could kick the ass of anyone who tries to mess with her. Sasha invests her money in property, not cocaine. Porn is more mainstream than ever (that's why you hear more people talking about kinky stuff!), these ladies are serious about business.

 

As for men that watch hardcore scenes, I've encountered tons of them. None of them have been disrespectful to me. My boyfriend enjoys watching really rough blowjobs, he doesn't force me to give them though. As an adult, he can separate fiction from reality. Men in my age group (early 20s) are no more disrespectful than men in their 40s (who didn't grow up on internet porn). There will always be some men who can't be mature, this applies to women as well. It's just my opinion, but I don't think the vast majority of men are running around like sex fiends because they're exposed to a lot of internet porn. I think it's good that more people are getting exposed to stuff that's out of the ordinary. Pooping on people, rape-play, forced blowjobs didn't just "appear" in the last decade. They've been around for a very long time (Marquis de Sade, anyone?). It's just that now these fetishes have come out of the dark alleyway and that's not necessarily a bad thing. A young man doesn't just wake up and decide to beat the **** out of his girlfriend because he saw a video of it.

 

I'm not an expert on the subject by any means, but I am (was...before this dreadful economy, haha) in the industry. I don't work in front of the camera, I used to handle the business side of it for some ladies like Stoya and the AMAZING Sasha Grey. So all this is just firsthand experience. I also enjoy S&M and the gagging blowjobs and everything. I was never abused, don't do drugs, don't drink, and grew up in a perfectly healthy upper middle-class home. My relationships have been fairly normal and my current one is full of mutual respect and love. My partner would never hurt me on purpose.

 

I'm just sick and tired of people blaming dumb stuff on this industry and S&M without experiencing it firsthand (a day on a porn set for a major studio would change a ton of people's opinions, it's just like a regular movie set!).

 

/End Rant.

 

I love LOVE good rant like this. I especially love when people make a great point with experience in said discussion. Thank you for taking the time out to write this.

 

This thread is a fun read at work

[Des]

Can't say I go along with it primarily because I don't see people as being any less or more equal to me. I don't see people as being any less or more equal to me. I'm big on acknowledging, embracing and celebrating the differences between the sexes but these differences does not make anyone any more or less equal in my eyes.

 

So are you saying you don't agree, or just that you personally, are not that way?

 

Celebrating this differences of the sexes? What kind of celebration are you referring to?

 

My point is, we as a society have an obsessive need to categorize and especially stereotype people, whether it be sex, race, religion etc... this is what often leads to the alienation, the idea that people are the opposite or different, perhaps not a person in the same way that you are (racism, sexism). Our society would rather see men and women as opposites rather than equals. While you may say it's natural, or all good and well for us to alienate or stereotype a predetermined set of values for a specific kind of person, it often hurts more than it helps. The only reason that many "celebrations" of differences exist, is to serve as a reminder that we are same, despite our differences, though I think a lot of the time that point is missed.

 

I base this on the fact there's very little real or reported evidence that suggests a change of attitude or behavior has actually occurred. Lots of hearsay, lots of conjecture but very little, if any, hardcore proof to back up these views.

 

What actually constitutes as "hardcore proof" of attitude changes towards women? Apparently real world experience is all hearsay, so that's out. Perhaps attitudes displayed through anonymous Internet users? Various types of mainstream media?

 

How about the CBS report the other night that revealed 30% of teens reported being in an "abusive relationship", most of which the aggressors were young men. And that's just teenage relationships. They also touched on influences from our media, and how it has impacted teenage relationships. Don't you think 30% is pretty freakin' high?

 

The solutions I offered earlier on to this 'change'

 

Must have missed those?

Edited December 10, 2009 by Des

[A O]

However, there are many men out there, you excluded by your own words, that do look down on women for just being women and don't respect the things that make women women beyond their t&a. And you can see that reflected through society in general and most obviously, in porn.

Thankfully, I don't see this in society, no more than I see women disrespecting men that is. Of course there are people who look down on others, for whatever reason, but in my view, that's their tough luck because people in general, tend to fear what they see in themselves the most!

 

As for the porn aspect, yes, there's a lot more, far too much in fact of what I call crap, disrespectful porn, mainly at the expense of women. Its a sad fact, its a disturbing fact, but what really annoys me the most (and this is the same with the media, especially the fashion aspect)....your average punter simply doesn't get a say in the matter. For example, the fashion industry use mostly wafer thin models. Now who the heck actually wants that, other than the industry insiders who think that they know what we want, or should that be - think they know what's best for us. Yet the fashion industry still rakes in the money, which could imply that people are complicit with the industry view, to some, but more than likely its just a simple case of people having to put up with what's presented before them. Similar deal with porn. Do guys really want to watch half this crap out there or do they actually have very little choice in the matter (in regards to the degrading palarva).

 

But the fact is, you men don't live in a world where your wives, gfs and the other women of your life are on a constant hunt for other men, visually or otherwise.

We have our own concerns, arguably not as great as yours, that centre around the provision and emotional well being of women. Don't provide enough and a woman may stray/leave. Starve her of emotional attention and again, she may stray or leave. Both of these scenarios are far more likely to affect women than men.

 

 

.

[A O]

So are you saying you don't agree, or just that you personally, are not that way?

If you believe in equality, then your argument doesn't apply.

 

Celebrating this differences of the sexes? What kind of celebration are you referring to?

An appreciation that women and men bring different strengths, in general, to the table.

 

My point is, we as a society have an obsessive need to categorize and especially stereotype people, whether it be sex, race, religion etc... this is what often leads to the alienation, the idea that people are the opposite or different, perhaps not a person in the same way that you are (racism, sexism).

We pigeon hole, we 'all' pigeon hole, that much is true. There's no getting away from this fact - for anyone. Its whether you allow this thinking to colour your views, especially in a negative manner, that's the main point. Some do, many don't.

 

Our society would rather see men and women as opposites rather than equals.

Here's pigeon holing. Now, its up to each of us to determine whether we wish to believe this, and if we do, whether we'll allow this belief to influence our views in any way shape or form.

 

The only reason that many "celebrations" of differences exist, is to serve as a reminder that we are same, despite our differences, though I think a lot of the time that point is missed.

We're not the same - we're different...and the sooner people understand this, the easier it will be for them.

 

What actually constitutes as "hardcore proof" of attitude changes towards women?

Government and academic reports or studies. Can also include studies undertaken by various organisations (special interest groups, workplaces for instance) as well as on the ground reports from various news outlets. In general, we're looking for a cluster of evidence and or a major study involving thousands of participants, often studied over a lengthy period of time.

 

How about the CBS report the other night that revealed 30% of teens reported being in an "abusive relationship", most of which the aggressors were young men. And that's just teenage relationships. They also touched on influences from our media, and how it has impacted teenage relationships. Don't you think 30% is pretty freakin' high?

Taken in isolation, its eye-catching and potentially of concern. Backed up with a raft of evidence and we're talking about a travesty of monumental proportions, that I would think that no government (in the western world) could afford to leave unaddressed.

 

.

[Jersey Shortie]

Thankfully, I don't see this in society, no more than I see women disrespecting men that is.

 

Most of us see it almost every day in some form or another.

 

As for the porn aspect, yes, there's a lot more, far too much in fact of what I call crap, disrespectful porn, mainly at the expense of women. Its a sad fact, its a disturbing fact...

 

One thing you've said that I can agree with.

 

Similar deal with porn. Do guys really want to watch half this crap out there or do they actually have very little choice in the matter (in regards to the degrading palarva).

 

 

I hate the escapism of responsbility in this post. Sorry. That's what it is. Men do have many choices. They choose to do the easiest, most lazy and most selfish one. The truth is they do want to watch "half this crap" It wouldn't be out there if it didn't draw a repetitive response. Men respond physically and emotionally to porn. And it's okay if it comes at the expense of women. End of story for most men. Women matter very little in the grand scheme.

[A O]

I hate the escapism of responsbility in this post. Sorry. That's what it is. Men do have many choices. They choose to do the easiest, most lazy and most selfish one.

Sorry, but we simply do not have the ability to control what the media does, what the fashion industry does or what the porn industry does. That goes for men and porn, that goes for women and the fashion industry and that goes for people and media. Henceforth, whatever you say about men, is equally true for women and people in general.

 

Men respond physically and emotionally to porn. And it's okay if it comes at the expense of women. End of story for most men.

End of story for you. Thankfully most women, that I know, don't say it that way.

 

Women matter very little in the grand scheme.

Boy, what a world we would be living in if this were true. Think of it this way, if this were anywhere near true, I wouldn't be debating here with you.

 

.

[Jersey Shortie]

Sorry, but we simply do not have the ability to control what the media does, what the fashion industry does or what the porn industry does. That goes for men and porn, that goes for women and the fashion industry and that goes for people and media. Henceforth, whatever you say about men, is equally true for women and people in general.

 

I'm not a fan of "they do it too" arguements. It's more of a deflection of the topic then an address of it

 

When it comes to sexuality, men often throw out personal responibility and tune into so that anything sexual and gets defended under the guise that "I am a man so it's okay if I do crappy things when it comes to my sexuality".

 

End of story for you. Thankfully most women, that I know, don't say it that way.

 

Actually, pornography has become a major factor in relationship issues and breakups. Alot more councelors are seeingmore people struggling with the issue.

 

 

Boy, what a world we would be living in if this were true. Think of it this way, if this were anywhere near true, I wouldn't be debating here with you.

 

That makes NO sense.

[Des]

academic reports or studies. Can also include studies undertaken by various organisations (special interest groups, workplaces for instance) as well as on the ground reports from various news outlets. In general, we're looking for a cluster of evidence and or a major study involving thousands of participants, often studied over a lengthy period of time.

 

Alright, he's one for you, or anyone else following this thread for that matter.

 

Consider this documentary, "The Price of Pleasure" filmed and produced by people with actual degrees and studies in this area.

 

It shows the real side of pornography, which I can vouch for, and it also miraculously hits on a lot of the VERY same points that Jersey and I have been repeating in this thread. I had never even seen the film until now.

 

The entire film can be viewed on YouTube. Warning - it is graphic (though censored), and there is a lot of foul language. It is intended for educational purposes only. Very depressing to watch, I might add. There are 6 parts. View at your own discretion.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/micksmum26#g/c/527E1D8F06E3679C

 

"I hate to say it but, I think the future of American porn is violence." - Joe Gallant, porn producer.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Des

[A O]

I'm not a fan of "they do it too" arguements. It's more of a deflection of the topic then an address of it

This is not a 'they do it too' argument nor is it s deflection of the topic at hand.

 

The topic in this case is "choice", the argument is one of "degree". You believe that men take the easiest, laziest and most selfish choice, while I argue that men have very little real say in the matter and use other industries, namely the fashion and media outlets to emphasize my point.

 

When it comes to sexuality, men often throw out personal responibility and tune into so that anything sexual and gets defended under the guise that "I am a man so it's okay if I do crappy things when it comes to my sexuality".

Well, if anyone wants to do crappy things, and it doesn't matter what area of life we're talking about, then one fairly obvious and 'personally responsible' thing to do, talking from the other side of the fence, is simply to walk away.

 

Actually, pornography has become a major factor in relationship issues and breakups. Alot more councelors are seeingmore people struggling with the issue.

Wrong, you're grossly overstating the case and misinforming the public at large. A relationship issue, can be for sure, you're right there, but a major cause of relationship break ups....no, that's just scaremongering. In six years of discussing this topic, it has been an issue on dozens of occasions, but not once has it lead to a break up, not once. Likewise, I've neither heard in my own circles or come across one piece of news whereupon a couple has broken up solely because of porn.

 

Now, of course, I'm willing to re-examine my view should you or anyone else provide me with a cluster of evidence pointing to the contrary.

 

 

Consider this documentary, "The Price of Pleasure" filmed and produced by people with actual degrees and studies in this area.

I might get around to it, but I think I'm showing my age a bit here, but YouTube doesn't do much for me. If this thing had any real merit to it, then it would have found a much bigger home than YouTube.

 

"I hate to say it but, I think the future of American porn is violence." - Joe Gallant, porn producer.

This makes for a good headline but that's about all its good for. The future is still very much up for grabs. I, myself, envisage an FTO (Fair Trade Organization) type future whereupon all the participants and acts involved will need to comply to a pre-agreed set of criteria.

 

 

.

[Des]

I might get around to it, but I think I'm showing my age a bit here, but YouTube doesn't do much for me. If this thing had any real merit to it, then it would have found a much bigger home than YouTube.

 

Quite a cop-out on your part. Short of mailing you an actual dvd of it, which you can properly buy on-line, YouTube is the easy alternative. I recommend you do "get around to it", if you so desire the hardcore proof you were asking for. Or are you intimidated?

 

This makes for a good headline but that's about all its good for. The future is still very much up for grabs. I, myself, envisage an FTO (Fair Trade Organization) type future whereupon all the participants and acts involved will need to comply to a pre-agreed set of criteria.

 

I was merely taking a quote from a portion of the video interviewing a porn producer, whom I would expect to have a bit of insight about the future of the industry.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Des