TaraMaiden Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Harsh but true: Much as you may feel it necessary to respect your mother, you can't protect her from everything, and to do so is actually deceitful and misguided. You're putting her on a pedestal, and actually contributing to her fragility. By avoiding talking to her, you're actually perpetuating an illusion for her that will be all the more painful for her to bear when it's shattered. What I suggest you do is devote a day to her, and treat her like a queen, and leave her in no uncertain mind that you love her. And during this day - sooner rather than later - talk to her. But, Ecosse - you're a grown man now. You are contemplating building a life with a partner you wish to spend your days with. I get the feeling your mother is widowed? Could be wrong, but there's a male-figure displacement scenario here, emerging, as far as I can see,.... You cannot be all things to her. You're now being pulled in two directions and ultimately, unless you handle this skilfully, effectively and definitively now - you are setting your mother up for whomping great heartbreak. because at one point, you'll have to make a choice. And you will choose happiness. So, in effect, you have to work on damage limitation now. And come clean. Gently, lovingly, sympathetically, respectfully. But you have to let her know that it is like it is. And let her come round to it. Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 But now we've established what the real problem is (A misguidedly-religious mother, as opposed to misguided religion)..... what do you suggest? Well first, he needs to get into the habit of taking responsibility. The first post was essentially him dissembling and trying to disperse responsibility for this choice. He needs to acknowledge clearly that it's nothing but his preferences that are leading to his actions, and the delay in getting married. Secondly, if he really loves this girl I think it's good to think about the family, because he's gonna be dealing with them for a long, long, time. Third, I'd need to know if the mother is aware they have been going at it already. That's an important fact. If it were me, and I was sure about the girl and the marriage, I'd either put off moving in together or go ahead and just get married now instead of "later", whenever that is. But then I would never live with someone I'm not married to, just on general principles. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Ecosse Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 Tara: Thank you... youve helped me take a look from further back... I appreciate it... clv: Seriously?!?Are you familiar with logical fallacy? Might want to take up a few min and get accustomed... just a hunch, you thrive on it....Can we keep on track. I appreciate that you dislike my decision... Then feel free to post elsewhere... Im seeking some advise... Can you help based on the parameters I have set? We dont want to rush a wedding just to appease my mother...Can you maybe offer suggestions on how to ease the obvious discomfort and help her not resent my GF (She will be a part of my life from here on in... I dont want to put my GF through all this drama for the next ? years) Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 clv: Seriously? Seriously what? "I can't afford to get married" "Here is a way to get married you can afford" "Well, really I don't want to be rushed" In other words, you started out making excuses, but you are (apparently) telling the truth now. Fine. If you don't want to be rushed, then what's your rush? Date and live in separate places. Move closer if you want to, but live apart until you marry. It's not difficult. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Yeh, but the big hurdle, whatever he does, is Mother. I suspect that even talk of Marriage, and 'losing' him to another woman, is going to brush her up the wrong way. It really doesn't matter who he'd be engaged to - from Amy Winehouse to Audrey Hepburn - She'd be the one to come between them. And now that things are really serious between the OP and his GF, the sticky issue of how to handle Mother's sensitivities have emerged to an extent that they simply cannot be ignored any longer. Like it or not, Ecosse has been the most important man in his mother's life since he was 16. He has provided support, companionship and emotional protection for 14 years. That's very nearly a second lifetime for him. (And let's just get this straight, before anything comes up. I'm not talking an Oedipus situation here.) We are not privy to circumstances surrounding why this is, but it just is. And There's no point reaching into the past to try to decipher or untangle the whys and wherefores. The issue is here, and the issue is now. Ecosse, I suspect your mother is between 50 and 60 years of age, and the complication is that, at this age, you begin to perceive your own mortality, and with that can come Loneliness...... One thing that might help, is for your GF to seek your mother's friendship and counsel, and gain her trust through respect and looking up to her. Without compromising her own dignity, resolve and freedom to choose. The constraints of a clinging parent, are extremely difficult to loosen, especially when there is close affection. You are going to have to let both ladies know what you will stand - and what you won't stand for, avoid ever being Piggy-in-the-middle, and juggle things skilfully and calmly. But always, always, observe your own motives and agenda, and strive to be fair for yourself. All you can do is your best, and for the best reasons. You can't steer the opinions of others, or change minds overnight. But by being true to yourself, that remains their problem, not yours. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Ecosse Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 Tara, thank you again for your help and insight... I think you hit it right on the head, I do feel like I have had to be a pillar of support for my mother... Im not going to divulge her situation but suffice to say, she really overcame a bunch in her life to provide for me...(id love to tell her story, its pretty damn amazing what she did)... So I respect her and what she did... thats why this is so difficult, its out of respect for her... So the plan as it stands is this She (my mother) and my GF live in the same state, I am about 1000 miles away... She doesnt know that I plan to move back to her state yet... Over the next 10 +/- months Im going to try to forge a more open line of communication with her... at the same time mom will be getting to know my GF. I have 2 main concerns with this plan... #1 She will resent the relationship between my GF and I once we move in together #2 She will resent my GF for an extended period of time Im aware that there will be some form of resentment no matter how little and that I can handle... So we are thinking that we need to spend time with my mom so that she will get to know "us"... at the same time, I intent to try to bring up points when she alienates herself from me through the statements she blurts out... My end hope is that she will be more aware of the times she blurts out her views that make others uncomfortable and thus I can be more honest with her... Eventually, we will tell her our intentions of living together and hope that the sting isnt as tough for her to handle... I think that sounds solid... As always, Im open to suggestions... Thanks again for your insight Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Yeh, but the big hurdle, whatever he does, is Mother. So you're thinking marriage isn't even the real issue. Could be. Does he still live with his mom, at age 30? I didn't catch that, I'll have to scroll up later. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I think he has two women in his life, and he's beginning to get uncomfortable, because at one point or another, one relationship (the one with his mother) is liable to become compromised. He's basically trying to find a damage-limitation route. (Sorry to be talking in 3rd person, Ecosse.....But I think I'm close. Might not be. But it's as I'm seeing it......) Link to post Share on other sites
Author Ecosse Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 The issue is co-habitation... I was really just looking at getting opinions abotu one specific point but the thread evolved... No I dont still live with my mother... havent for a great many years, could never tolerate that environment. I live just shy of 1000 miles away.. .talk with my mom about every week to 2 weeks... Im not too overly concerned with her opinion. It has never changed my judgement but Im really trying to soften the blow and attempt to avoid any conflict that might emerge... my GF and I intend to spend our lives together and we are just trying to make my end of the family a little more at ease with our choices... Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Ah, ok... so 'taking her out for the day' is going to be difficult. Well, in that case, you have to go with the rest of it though..... You have to decide on the lesser of two evils....not letting her know you're moving in, and doing things in a way which might suit you two, but wouldn't be entirely honest - or coming clean, remaining firm, and waiting for the after-shock and/or fall-out, I guess.... Really, as things stand, it's an awkward choice, rather than a difficult one, because you don't strike me as a man who would be comfortable being deceitful. Or else, the thread wouldn't have got this far, I suppose.... I think it's a little late in the day for me to be asking this, but - what does your GF say? How is she with this? Regarding your Mother, I mean? What's her opinion? Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 The issue is co-habitation... ... Im really trying to soften the blow and attempt to avoid any conflict that might emerge... my GF and I intend to spend our lives together and we are just trying to make my end of the family a little more at ease with our choices... So why is it so important to cohabitate before you marry? I'm not understanding the motive here. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Ecosse Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 She is fully aware of the situation... actually I have to keep reminding her that for as much as my mother can seem closed minded and abrasive, she is very sweet too (but GF is still worried about meeting her... just a couple weeks till we all meet up)... Her opinion is that we dont bring up the living together topic until it is closer to the date... We both want my mother to get to know her for who she is and not this one detail... That might seem deceitful but its more about picking battles... Agreed that is a maladaptive behavior on my part but thats the mode we are in atm... The whole basis for this post was to gain some extra insight onto the topic and get a few other opinions... Thanks again Tara and you too clv Link to post Share on other sites
Author Ecosse Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 clv... Im trying to retain some form of privacy being that Im online... The end of the story is we cant afford to take on the next challenges in life solo... yes I suppose we could get room mates and live separately, but what is the point? We dont have a problem with co-habitation and intend to marry once we are finished with our education... I posted this to the religion forum as my mother is very Christian and the bible is what she uses to defend herself (on everything). So I was looking to get the opinions of other people (especially those against co-habitation) so that I can hear other arguments and be better prepared for when I have to tackle the issue first hand... I hope you can see why I took such adversity to your "hitting it now" comment back then... Im not foolhardy, nor simply looking to get leid... I think Im a pretty sincere guy and just trying to do things as best as possible... Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 clv... Im trying to retain some form of privacy being that Im online... The end of the story is we cant afford to take on the next challenges in life solo... ....intend to marry once we are finished with our education... So you're 30, she's 29, but you're not through with your education and although you've lived on your own for a long time, you can't afford it any more? I'm a little puzzled. If she can't afford it, why not just rent her a place near yours? Or buy an investment property and let her take care of it until you can marry? Because I'm betting the argument you're looking to win is an argument you can't win. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Ecosse Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 I am going to further my education... so is she... Im moving back to the state she is in to be with her... We can afford to live solo and be full time students (me especially as I have been making a pretty good living the last few years and student loans are light for ppl in my shoes)... We want to move in together and that decision has been made... I will be working PT as long as possible as will she... What Im looking at is how to break the news to my mother who will take it poorly and potentially create a major strain on my relationship with my GF... Im not looking to "win" the argument, just hope to help her understand without causing her duress... I dont know how much more simply I can put it... Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 What Im looking at is how to break the news to my mother who will take it poorly and potentially create a major strain on my relationship with my GF... . "Mom, I don't believe what you believe. I'm sorry and I hope you can see past that." Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 "...and if you can't see past that, then you are going to have to live with it. Regardless I love you, but I love *GF* too, and it's what we want to do." Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 "...and if you can't see past that, then you are going to have to live with it. Regardless I love you, but I love *GF* too, and it's what we want to do." Want to team-write a Harlequin Novel? Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Ok. "It was a dark and stormy night....." Your go. Ecosse, I think the bottom line is that you have to grab the bull by the horns and state your case. As the saying goes: "speak your Truth. tell it like it is. There is no use in saying it otherwise." Take the leap, and let her know, that what you want, is how it is. Sometimes the hit approach is the only one we can use. No point pussyfooting. Nobody ever leapt a ditch in 2 small steps.... Link to post Share on other sites
NoIDidn't Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Can I add one more bit o' advice to this for you, Ec? Don't add to your GF's fears of meeting your mom by passing this anxiety that you are feeling about what hasn't happened yet to her. I don't like co-habitating much either, but not for religious reasons. And I am a Christian. The research is there that shows co-habitating before marriage makes the couple more likely to divorce. Not one couple that I know of personally that co-habitated before marriage was able to make the transition to marriage and make it last. Not saying this to scare you, just something to consider so you can research it (since you are into education, yay) and avoid the pitfalls that co-habitating couples fall into that generally leads to divorce should they ever actually make it to the alter. I should also state, that I know of a few couples that lived together while never making it to the alter yet have been together for longer than I have been alive. So its possible to make it, even the stats are against it. Link to post Share on other sites
taiko Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Well the reasons for the post I wrote also (lower down the posting)... Ive been reading up on various aspects of Marriage and co-habitation... I was just curious what biblically was the reason the we shouldnt live together b4 getting married... even if we get engaged before... IMO the ceremony is just a ceremony... wouldnt we have made the commitment at the official engagement or is it really the ceremony? Whats in a ceremony that isnt in our hearts before? I think "Biblical" one became married when he publically moved in with in together with his betrothed. Sort of super engaged in today's world. Later churches put on requirements using Priest, Ministers, etc as God's representative to insure the couple knew the marriage was not just about them. Think of it like when Muslims say something is not in the Koran but its in the Hadiths. For Christians the ceremony is not in the Bible but is part of the Orthodox/Catholic tradition which the nobility went through as a pre party. The "Sacred Tradition" was then encoded for all during the Council of Trent. Protestants with its roots in orthodoxy mostly held onto the officiated ceremony, to the point today many Christian communities don't consider you "validly" married unless you marry on their grounds following their rules. In effect if they taught you then you know "the fullness of truth" thus are being disobedient to God's will to choose any but the official path for your ceremony. Link to post Share on other sites
Tayla Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 This topic really did veer off its original concept. Ecosse- As a parent who also had trials and tribulations in raising sons, The greatest joy ( well besides my grandson arriving into the world) , was when my eldest son announced his intent to marry. I was overwhelmed for him. Yes we were a close knit family with many values , yet the greatest compliment a parent can receive is to see their child grow up, make the right choices and marry wisely. My son didn't offend my values for they were mine and I dont expect him to live by my personal beliefs. How insulting as a parent it would be if my son didnt have a mind of his own or make choices that were right for his life. As a parent its imparative to put aside personal religious beleifs in favor of supporting a son who has done right thus far. You Speak well of your parent and need to give her more credit and not shield her personal religious beliefs You only owe her the compliment of living your life to the beat of your own drum. Which sounds like what you are preparing to do! Her beleifs are not yours , nor are they yours to abide by, thats what makes you an adult. Here is something that the bible does say "Love one another". Simple yet to the point. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Ecosse Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 Hello everybody... I thought Id drop another quick line to give some more feedback/progress for those of you who were posting. I was back in my GF/Moms state for a visit and we did the initial meetings. My GF really likes my mom and now understands the situation with her. My mom really likes my GF (actually she is acting completely different than she ever has with previous GFs). Im really confident that things will work out just fine, Im going to be back in a few more weeks for another visit where we will all be together again. We are still going to hold off on dropping the bomb until next summer when we are actually moving in together. Well, I just wanted to bring a little more to the story and say thanks again for all your help. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 looks like you were anxious about 'what ifs' before the event. isn't it amazing...? We build up these worries, then find they were without foundation. What was all the fuss about? I'm glad things worked out well for you. Link to post Share on other sites
mbeewood Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Is it the ceremony? Because that wasnt made popular until 500 yrs ago... Technically wouldnt the moment of engagement mark the bond of Marriage? Not sure, although it says in Matthew "...a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore, what God has joined together, let man not tear apart.” I'm not very well hearsed on wedding ceremonies from those times so you'd be better off looking elsewhere. Link to post Share on other sites
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