pain and confusion

[Ellin]

Here's the story.

 

I fell crazily in love with a man 14 years older (he's 50), who's in a relationship with my neighbor (aged 55), however at the time I didn't know they were that involved.

 

They've been together for around 15 years, when they met she was married with 4 growing up children, left her husband who was sick and subsequently died. So they never got married, have no children together and no financial ties from what I know, stay together either at his or her flat. She's drinking (probably an alcoholic) and a mess generally. I also heard from both of them that there has been no intimacy between them for a long time.

 

It's been 3 or 4 months that we've been talking and cuddling (no sex yet) and he told me so many things. That he loved me very much, dreamed of a marriage and children with me (which is something he's never had). That we would move somewhere else and be together.

 

The picture of the future he painted for me and all the conversations we had made me feel so happy, ecstatic. It was just like being in heaven. It wasn't anything big, just simple happy life I've always wanted but never had (been through a lot of abuse and now looking after my young children on my own). It seemed so right and he feels so perfect for me in every way. The attraction in enormous on every level.

 

But when it comes to taking action, he seems unable to make a break and leave her, even though he's unhappy. He's very insecure, always telling me he's too old and unattractive (not true of course) and rejecting compliments from me, always wondering if I still love him. I think he might be showing symptoms of alcoholic codependency. He's attached to her quite strongly in probably some unhealthy way and he's scared of her reactions and of making changes and decisions. He carries a lot of guilt and fear.

 

I'm myself also very insecure (due to the abuse from most of my past). So I find it hard to believe that anything will go the way I want, that I could have a happy life.

 

And this man means everything to me, he's got so deeply under my skin that I can't get him out without falling apart. The situation is extremely painful for me. The uncertainty, confusion, wanting so much to be with him but seeing him stay in something that makes him unhappy. However, the thought of ending it for good is even worse, unbearable. And I can't even get away if I wanted to, because I have to keep seeing him around... with her.

 

I would greatly apprecaite words of support which could help me feel more oprimistic or positive or help me solve this puzzle.

 

Thanks for reading!

[jennie-jennie]

Welcome to LS! It is so frustrating with these committed men.

 

Hugs from another OW.

[Ellin]

Thank you Jennie-Jennie.

 

I'm glad someone understands what it feels like.

 

I like your signature.

 

.................................................................................................

Does anyone think there can be some kind of happy ending to my story?

 

Please please say you do, even if you don't.......

[fooled once]

He doesn't live with her, correct?

 

But he is so unhappy.

 

They are not married and share nothing but each other.

 

But he is so unhappy.

 

But he doesn't leave her.

 

Don't count on him leaving her.

 

I wouldn't get anymore involved with him if I were you. He is not going to be able to give you what you are seeking.

 

Unless you are content staying the OW, and some here are, then continue. But if you want him to yourself, to not share him with another woman who he doens't live with, isn't married to and has not real ties to - then tell him you will not longer be in his life until he cuts ties with her.

 

It really doesn't sound like he is going to change his life.

 

Good luck

[Ellin]

This is how it goes. Years ago she left her husband and children to live with him in his flat. However, every day she returned to her flat, where her kids still lived. Then she went back to his overnight. It seems to have been every day the same for the past 17 years. Now only one of her sons still lives there, but she keeps coming over early in the day and going back to his in the evening, after he picks her up when he comes back from work.

 

He tells me that when she stays at her flat she gets drunk every day. She had a heart surgery a few years ago and was told to live a healthy life, but she keeps drinking, smokes heavily and neglects to take her medication. He seems to feel overly responsible for her. After work, he does the shopping and cooking and most of cleaning. He keeps himself busy all the time and feels overly responsible for her and tries to rescue her from her self-destructive behaviour. Obviously he's only going down with her. And quite apparently there has been no intimacy between them for some years.

 

And I know this is 100% true (well let's say 99% since we can't be totally certain of anything), because I have lived next door and seen her and her gang around for several years.

 

He tells me that nothing has happened in his life since getting involved with her. The years have gone by so suddenly, because almost every day was just the same.

 

Do you think he can be really happy like this?

 

He told me that he feels desperately sorry for her and if he leaves her, it will wreck her life. He also told me that his biggest worry is that he's too old for me and that's why our relationship would not last.

 

Thank you for your advice FOOLED ONCE and I'm sure you had my well-being in heart. But I'm not capable of walking away right now. The things he says give me hope and we've only had this going for about 6 months and been actually seeing each other for about 2 months. I cannot give up just yet.. Until I know there is no hope.. Otherwise I couldn't find peace wondering what could have been. I also find it hard to see him in the state he's in because I care about him so much and he's a really good man.

 

The big reason why I can't give up is that I have never before knew anyone who would be so perfectly matching my dream guy, never loved anyone that much and that's why I think I never will again..

 

However, being in this situation, all the problems, the uncertainty and such intense emotions - this is excruciating. I would greatly appreciate any support from anyone who knows what it feels like.

 

I never experienced anything like this before and I didn't think I ever would. I thought I was too smart to get involved in a triangle. Now I'm in pieces. This is really very different and much more difficult than any problems in a relationship between 2 people...

 

How do I cope now, while I'm in the middle of this??

[jwi71]

Do you think he can be really happy like this?

 

Not unhappy enough to leave in any case.

 

He also told me that his biggest worry is that he's too old for me and that's why our relationship would not last.

You said insecure. I'll say pathetic. Seriously, how many times have you told and assured him the opposite. 100's? And its STILL an issue.

 

They are not married, have no children and no financial ties...yet he CHOOSES her. Ellin, he is EXACTLY where he wants to be. And its exactly where he will remain. His choice. His life. Don't let his life become yours because that's the path you are on.

 

This doesn't end well for you. I would cut your losses, cry your tears and move on...sheesh, you guys have been "together" what...a few months? Can you imagine what its like YEARS later?

 

But I'm not capable of walking away right now.

Then YOU are EXACTLY where you want to be.

Because telling him 100's of times isn't enough...what will be?

How do you plan on convincing him otherwise?

 

I'll give you a hint, he feels for her what you feel for him. She dangles just enough hope to keep him around...just as he does to you. How many years will you wait? What "sign" do you need?

 

The things he says give me hope and we've only had this going for about 6 months and been actually seeing each other for about 2 months. I cannot give up just yet.. Until I know there is no hope.. Otherwise I couldn't find peace wondering what could have been. I also find it hard to see him in the state he's in because I care about him so much and he's a really good man.

Good and bad hope. This is poisonous hope. It is preventing you from moving on, from living, from being loved in return. What you and "he" have isn't love for love is reciprocal in nature. You aren't getting it. He gives it to "her".

 

The big reason why I can't give up is that I have never before knew anyone who would be so perfectly matching my dream guy, never loved anyone that much and that's why I think I never will again..

To quote GEL (best quote ever)...You lived before w/o him and you can do so again. This is is hogwash. After 2 months you can't let go? I think there may be more than one dependent R here...

 

However, being in this situation, all the problems, the uncertainty and such intense emotions - this is excruciating. I would greatly appreciate any support from anyone who knows what it feels like.

I think most humans have experienced unrequited love. It svcks.

My support...get out. Find a man who treats YOU as he treats her. They exist...I promise. But you can't see him until you step back and see "this" for what it is...hopeless.

 

And if you "win"...do you really want to spend the rest of your days propping him up emotionally? At 50, he has habits and thought patterns you can't imagine...and they are deeply ingrained.

 

I never experienced anything like this before and I didn't think I ever would. I thought I was too smart to get involved in a triangle. Now I'm in pieces. This is really very different and much more difficult than any problems in a relationship between 2 people...

If you can, try to distance yourself from this. Look at it as we do...from the outside.

 

A 50 year old man dedicates 15 years to her though they are not M, have no kids and no obvious financial ties. A 35 year old woman loves and hopes this man...for 6 months at best. She wants him. HE is focused on "her". What do you tell the 35 year old? Stay? Wait?

 

Or do you say go?

 

How do I cope now, while I'm in the middle of this??

What do you want to hear?

That there is some magic phrase to open his eyes? There isn't.

That sex will convince him? It won't.

That patience wins out in the end? Not likely.

That your love will show him the "way"? He only sees her.

 

There is NOTHING anyone can say or do to convince HIM to change. HE has to want it. You can try all you want...but he's not buying.

 

HAs nothing to do with you...like you said, its his codependent relationship.

[Ellin]

Are you a psychic JWI71?

Not unhappy enough to leave in any case.

yet he CHOOSES her. Ellin, he is EXACTLY where he wants to be. And its exactly where he will remain.

This doesn't end well for you.

 

You don't and can't KNOW that. You could use words like "likely", "most probably" etc. I find your attitude disrespectful. However difficult the situation is, you never know the outcome and maybe it could be unexpectedly positive, however your "advice" taken seriously could become self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

Then YOU are EXACTLY where you want to be.

I find this disrespectful too. This is not AT ALL where I want to be. Walking away, however, will not bring any magic solution right now.

 

I'll give you a hint, he feels for her what you feel for him. She dangles just enough hope to keep him around...just as he does to you. How many years will you wait? What "sign" do you need?

You don't know her, him or me. He definitely doesn't feel for her what I feel for him. And why are you talking about years? It's been 2 MONTHS of actually seeing each other.

You lived before w/o him and you can do so again. This is is hogwash. After 2 months you can't let go? I think there may be more than one dependent R here...

Again you're making assumptions and jumping into unfair conclusions. And when it comes to living before - exactly, that was BEFORE I knew him. Nothing will ever be the same now. I don't think you know what I mean.

And if you "win"...do you really want to spend the rest of your days propping him up emotionally?

Fine by me. Anything is fine if I can have future with him. He could be in a wheelchair, that wouldn't change a thing - this is how I feel about him.

[Ellin]

To clarify it for the third time.

I would be very grateful for support from those who understand exactly what it feels like and who can see something positive in my story and give hope and support.

 

This is what I desperately need for the time being.

 

I am more than painfully aware of how unlikely it is that things will go the way I want. I think about it 50 times a day. So, risking to sound ungrateful, the categorically and authoritatively stated "harsh truths" are rather redundant.

[jennie-jennie]

Ellin,

Just sending you a short note because I am so busy tonight. I will respond to you tomorrow. Just wanted to let you know that I am reading your posts. I'll be back tomorrow.

 

Hugs,

Jennie

[fooled once]

And quite apparently there has been no intimacy between them for some years.

 

How is it apparent there is no intimacy? Because he tells you so?

 

Do you think he can be really happy like this?

 

He must be because he stays. He must be because he has taken no action to change it.

 

But I'm not capable of walking away right now. The things he says give me hope and we've only had this going for about 6 months and been actually seeing each other for about 2 months. I cannot give up just yet.. Until I know there is no hope.. Otherwise I couldn't find peace wondering what could have been. I also find it hard to see him in the state he's in because I care about him so much and he's a really good man.

 

The big reason why I can't give up is that I have never before knew anyone who would be so perfectly matching my dream guy, never loved anyone that much and that's why I think I never will again..

 

But you are capable of walking away, you are choosing not to. You have only been seeing him 2 months. You don't really know him. I understand not wanting to give up and believing he is "it" for you..... but he is taking no ACTION to change anything. So if you are content being 2nd, then continue.

 

However, being in this situation, all the problems, the uncertainty and such intense emotions - this is excruciating. I would greatly appreciate any support from anyone who knows what it feels like.

 

I never experienced anything like this before and I didn't think I ever would. I thought I was too smart to get involved in a triangle. Now I'm in pieces. This is really very different and much more difficult than any problems in a relationship between 2 people...

 

How do I cope now, while I'm in the middle of this??

 

This is how many of us felt while IN the relationship. Once out, we realize it wasn't based on reality. It is what is commonly referred to as "affair fog".

 

How do you cope? I don't know. You are choosing to put yourself in this, you are choosing to be in a triangle, with one person not knowing about the triangle. I know you want to think of her as this horrible person, but something holds him to her. I don't believe it is what he tells you. Basically, he is saying his needs mean nothing and he knows how devestated she would be if he left. For all you know, maybe she has someone on the side? They share NOTHING; yet he stays.

 

He definitely doesn't feel for her what I feel for him.

 

You don't know what he feels for her. You only know what he tells you and he isn't going to tell the cute neighbor who has a crush on him and is much younger than him that life with her is fantastic. He is going to tell you what he needs to tell you to keep you coming around.

 

I would be very grateful for support from those who understand exactly what it feels like and who can see something positive in my story and give hope and support.

 

I do understand what you are feeling and I can tell you from PERSONAL experience -- it most likely will not work out for you and him. NOTHING is keeping him with her; yet he stays. Think about that - really think about that. You are offering him all kinds of things ~ freedom from the drunk woman, sex whenever he wants it, young woman to have on his arm ~ and he is still staying with her. I am not sure why you seem to think it was a good idea to get involved with him to begin with.

 

You don't seem to like to hear that MOST LIKELY it won't work out -- so I don't know what else to say. I can't say "Yep, keep hanging in there, maybe in a year or two he will decide to leave" or "WOW, his actions sure are telling you he wants you and only you". Sorry, but to me, that is false hope.

 

Give him an ultimatum -- her or you. See what he says.

 

Good luck!

[jwi71]

Are you a psychic JWI71?

 

Nope...but I've seen this before. And if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck...must be a duck.

 

You don't and can't KNOW that. You could use words like "likely", "most probably" etc. I find your attitude disrespectful. However difficult the situation is, you never know the outcome and maybe it could be unexpectedly positive, however your "advice" taken seriously could become self-fulfilling prophecy.

Fair enough.

What will YOU DO then?

What CAN YOU DO?

How will YOU affect change?

I gave you my idea...whats yours?

 

I find this disrespectful too. This is not AT ALL where I want to be. Walking away, however, will not bring any magic solution right now.

But it does. It ends this place you don't want to be but can't/won't take actions to get out of. Because your plan of "wait it out" sounds an awful like do nothing and hope. And, because I've seen this before...I have a REAL good idea of how it ends for you.

 

You don't know her, him or me. He definitely doesn't feel for her what I feel for him. And why are you talking about years? It's been 2 MONTHS of actually seeing each other.

You're right. I posted based on what YOU wrote...nothing else.

And how do you KNOW what he feels? How can you possibly claim that after 2 MONTHS? You know NOTHING about him. NOTHING. All you know is what he says...that's all.

 

But that's not true now is it. We can deduce his values based on his ACTIONS. Namely, now matter how bad YOU think it is, its not bad enough for HIM to leave. What does that tell you?

 

Again you're making assumptions and jumping into unfair conclusions. And when it comes to living before - exactly, that was BEFORE I knew him. Nothing will ever be the same now. I don't think you know what I mean.

You mean two months with you was SO good he will leave her of 15 years.

Good luck with that.

 

Fine by me. Anything is fine if I can have future with him. He could be in a wheelchair, that wouldn't change a thing - this is how I feel about him.

Fair enough. Sad you cede your life to a man you have known for 6 months (2 dating). One who you know cheats and lies. One has SERIOUS emotional issues.

 

I'm not sure there is anything else I can say. Nothing I say will open your eyes and you are looking for cheerleaders. Not me - a t least when its, to me, likely to end badly for you. Don't fret, there are a few die-hard OM/OW who will support any A no matter what.

 

So..uh, go you? You keep doing nothing, I'm sure it'll end well.

[adiaz]

Ellin, for someone not married and unhappy your man doesn't seem to make an effort to get on with life and with you. I wish you luck and I hope it works out for you.

[moaningmyrtle]

Ellin - you will get all sorts of opinions and advice on this Forum. Some advice will resonate with you and other advice you won't like or will decide is not for you.

 

You seemed to try to dictate that you only wanted "approving" support but you also asked for advice to solve the puzzle. People's ideas of how you can solve the puzzle will include advice to walk away.

 

If you don't like advice my advice is to thank the person and then ignore it - but if you can't bring yourself to thank them then just ignore it. To start criticizing another poster for not understanding or not knowing the full facts is a little harsh as the only facts people have are what you have chosen to provide. People will inevitably form their own opinions about the facts you provide and some posters have done that. My advice is that your choice is to walk away or stay. It may sound trite but there is no magic pill that can make him leave her.

 

However if you want to force him into choosing then tell the betrayed partner of your affair. That should provoke something and who knows it may even be that he decides to leave her for you.

 

Most posters here have been through this in some form or another.

[jennie-jennie]

Hi, Ellin!

Well, it looks as so far you have gotten responses from betrayed spouses and what some of us called reformed other women. I have seen it happen many times that they throw themselves over a new poster. As an OW, if you like Loveshack, you need to stay strong and not let the posts you don't like bother you. If you stay here, they will eventually calm down and let you be.

 

I have been the OW for four years. The relationship I have with my MM has provided many of the best experiences in my life. He is so loving and wonderful, always there for me. Yet it is so difficult to have to share him with another woman.

 

I had no idea in the beginning that this would become a long term extramarital relationship. I believed MM would quickly choose one of us. When I understood that was not the case, I couldn't bring myself to leave him. He fulfills me so.

 

I don't regret being in a relationship with my MM. And I know that even at 2 months in it was not possible for me to leave him. He was just too right for me.

 

This having been said, if in the future I meet another MM, I will run as fast as I can. I know now that these men can be stuck in limbo for oh so long, and it is so frustrating waiting and hoping that one day they will be able to choose.

 

What you need to consider, is the possibility that your MM will not be able to choose, at least not for a very long time. You have to weigh the pros and cons of being in such a relationship, and decide if you want to be there. That is about the only power you have, to decide if you want a relationship with him or not. It is up to him if he wants to end his prior relationship. If he does not, you will either have to accept being the OW or get out. And it won't be easier leaving him as time goes on and your bond strengthens.

 

I always worry when an OW is still in childcarrying years. Have you had all the kids you want? Waiting for a MM might mean you say no to future children. This is also an aspect to take into consideration.

 

I hope I have said something here that will help you. I do understand the strong pull into the relationship, and I will support you whatever decision you make, whether you are in or out.

 

Hugs,

Jennie

Edited November 25, 2009 by jennie-jennie

[OWoman]

He told me that he feels desperately sorry for her and if he leaves her, it will wreck her life.

 

Sounds like she beat him to it - there doesn't seem an awful lot out there left to wreck....

 

Ellin, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but a couple of things leapt out for me from your description:

 

1) His loyalty to her. He's taking "for better or worse" very seriously, even though he's never had to sign his name to it. This is something you'd like in a partner. Problem: it's directed at her, not at you.

 

2) He feels insecure in his R with you. He worries that the age gap might prove too much for you (or whatever other issues he brings up, about being inadequate). He sees you as someone who has options - which might shift from being him to being someone else. With her, he's secure because he knows she's not as well placed as you on the "mateworthy" stakes - she's not about to dump him for something better, because no one's queuing up for her and her problems. Problem: his self-esteem levels are pretty toxic. Do you want an equal partner, or one you're going to have to prop up continually, constantly reassuring him that he's worthy of you?

 

Both of those COULD change - but not without a great deal of effort from HIM - starting with a willingness to want to change that. If he's "happy" (or, happy enough - as in, not sufficiently unhappy to want to change things by investing the effort it would require) or feels not up to the task (too old, too lacking in resources, etc) then it's a non-starter. But this is not something you can convince him of rationally. This is an emotional investment he's made, not a rational one. He has to FEEL it rather than understand it. Without knowing what his triggers are, and how best to help him move beyond his stuckness, there's probably not an awful lot you can do beyond being his friend. It sounds as though a spot of counselling would be needed for him.

 

Which leaves you with the choice - do you continue as you have been, supporting him and hoping things will shift over time, or do you set yourself a timeline - if things don't change with him, by a certain time, disengaging yourself so that you're free to find another partner who can give you the home and children you're hoping for "someday", before it's too late for you, too?

[Ellin]

How is it apparent there is no intimacy? Because he tells you so?

 

No, because SHE told me so and on more than one occasion over the past couple of years (most of that time there was nothing between him and me).. Still not convinced?

 

Basically, he is saying his needs mean nothing and he knows how devestated she would be if he left. For all you know, maybe she has someone on the side? They share NOTHING; yet he stays.

Again, I KNOW she has no one on the side. She's holding on to him desperately and what you wrote is exactly what he says: he is saying his needs mean nothing and he knows how devestated she would be if he left. Like I said I KNOW her personally and I have observed her and her family for the past several years.

 

Sorry to disappoint you, as it seems you're enjoying undermining the validity of his words, but everything he has said to me has been confirmed in other ways.

 

Good luck!

Thank you.

[Ellin]

Ellin, for someone not married and unhappy your man doesn't seem to make an effort to get on with life and with you. I wish you luck and I hope it works out for you.

Thank you Adiaz.

[Ellin]

Ellin - you will get all sorts of opinions and advice on this Forum. Some advice will resonate with you and other advice you won't like or will decide is not for you.

 

You seemed to try to dictate that you only wanted "approving" support but you also asked for advice to solve the puzzle. People's ideas of how you can solve the puzzle will include advice to walk away.

 

If you don't like advice my advice is to thank the person and then ignore it - but if you can't bring yourself to thank them then just ignore it. To start criticizing another poster for not understanding or not knowing the full facts is a little harsh as the only facts people have are what you have chosen to provide. People will inevitably form their own opinions about the facts you provide and some posters have done that. My advice is that your choice is to walk away or stay. It may sound trite but there is no magic pill that can make him leave her.

 

However if you want to force him into choosing then tell the betrayed partner of your affair. That should provoke something and who knows it may even be that he decides to leave her for you.

 

Most posters here have been through this in some form or another.

Hi, Moaningmyrtle.

 

I can accept all sorts of advice, but I require minimum of respect and good will. The tone and way someone chooses to express themselves make a lot of difference. Stating something as a fact when you have no basis to know it as a fact, especially if it's something negative and likely to be upsetting for the recipient is a transgression and not helpful, neither does it imply good will. That's my impression and I have a right not to want to be talked to in this way.

 

But I will take your advice: THANK YOU JWI71.

 

Just want to clarify that I have nothing against your advice, Moaning myrtle. It was thoughtful and balanced, and thank you for taking the time to reply.

 

When it comes to telling her about what's going on, I can't do that. I want to aviod causing harm as much as possible..

Edited November 25, 2009 by Ellin

[Ellin]

Hi, Ellin!

Well, it looks as so far you have gotten responses from betrayed spouses and what some of us called reformed other women. I have seen it happen many times that they throw themselves over a new poster. As an OW, if you like Loveshack, you need to stay strong and not let the posts you don't like bother you. If you stay here, they will eventually calm down and let you be.

Thank you so much for your support Jennie-Jennie.

I have been the OW for four years. The relationship I have with my MM has provided many of the best experiences in my life. He is so loving and wonderful, always there for me. Yet it is so difficult to have to share him with another woman.

Being with my MM has given me many moments, which were the happiest of my life. They were so wonderful that after experiencing them life will never be the same. Having tasted this paradise feeling, I can't just go back to the way I was and cope in the way I used to cope...

I had no idea in the beginning that this would become a long term extramarital relationship. I believed MM would quickly choose one of us. When I understood that was not the case, I couldn't bring myself to leave him. He fulfills me so.

I thought the same - that he would be able to choose. I believed, even before he and I started talking about things, that he wanted to get out of his mess, judging by both his and her behavior.

 

At what point did you understand that he was not going to choose? How far into the relationship and what gave you this realisation?

I don't regret being in a relationship with my MM. And I know that even at 2 months in it was not possible for me to leave him. He was just too right for me.

He's just perfect for me. Literally a dream come true. Feels like the other half of my soul, however funny it must sound to the 'sceptics'.

 

So this is the dilemma: do I stay and struggle to have any sort of relationship with a man so right for me, or do I leave and have a full relationship with someone who is just ok, but feeling only half-heartedly involved.... Because I know that getting over him at this point would take me ages.

 

What you need to consider, is the possibility that your MM will not be able to choose, at least not for a very long time. You have to weigh the pros and cons of being in such a relationship, and decide if you want to be there. That is about the only power you have, to decide if you want a relationship with him or not. It is up to him if he wants to end his prior relationship. If he does not, you will either have to accept being the OW or get out. And it won't be easier leaving him as time goes on and your bond strengthens.

Thank you for these wise words, so helpful for me in my current situation. You so clearly and nicely spelled out the options for me. All I need to do is calm down, because I feel panicky and all over the place as I have no experience of being in this situation and I have an impression that I'm standing on a very shaky ground and it can be all over any moment.. It makes it difficult for me to give myslef space to step back and look at it a little more rationally, while the emotions are so strong.

 

As for our bond getting stronger, it doesn't sound bad to me right now, because I've already reached the state in which I can't just walk away. Actually I reached it almost immediately, the attraction was so strong. It scared me then and it scares me now..

I always worry when an OW is still in childcarrying years. Have you had all the kids you want? Waiting for a MM might mean you say no to future children. This is also an aspect to take into consideration.

That's very true, Jennie-Jennie, and I have to admit that it gives me a sense of urgency. I have 3 children and I think it is enough but on the other hand what I would really like to happen is to start over and after years of struggling in abusive situations, finally be happy and loved by a good man, and if that could happen I'd like to have a chance of having a child with him to make us a proper family, if that was what he wanted... So yes, it's a bit of a setback, but sometimes you can't have everything like in a fairy tale, and have to compromise.

I hope I have said something here that will help you. I do understand the strong pull into the relationship, and I will support you whatever decision you make, whether you are in or out.

 

Hugs,

Jennie

Everything you have said have helped me and thank you so much for that and for the hugs and the offer of support. It means so much to me.

 

***big hugs***

[RedDevil66]

You may want a minimum of respect but that's a tough one since your act is that of deceit and disrespect. No one here owes you respect, but yes, they should not be rude.

 

You say he's attached to her in some "unhealthy" way, well the union he has with you and you with him is seriously unhealthy.

 

He gets his cake and eat is, why would he leave his partner.

I would be very careful as to what he's telling you about how much he loves you, I believe it may be his version of love, but not the version of love you expect.

[Ellin]

Sounds like she beat him to it - there doesn't seem an awful lot out there left to wreck....

I'm not sure if I understand what you meant by that.

Ellin, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but a couple of things leapt out for me from your description:

 

1) His loyalty to her. He's taking "for better or worse" very seriously, even though he's never had to sign his name to it. This is something you'd like in a partner. Problem: it's directed at her, not at you.

You're right. He's very loyal to her and it's obviously a great thing he's this kind of man (and the fact it's not directed at me is a bit of a problem). He is extremely decent, caring and good-hearted and has plenty of other wonderful characteristics (with one big negative point which is his inability to sort it all out).

 

Probably he already didn't feel too great about himself when he first got involved with her, then the years of living with an alcoholic made him develop a mindset typical of a co-dependent. She makes him believe that her life depends on him.

2) He feels insecure in his R with you. He worries that the age gap might prove too much for you (or whatever other issues he brings up, about being inadequate). He sees you as someone who has options - which might shift from being him to being someone else. With her, he's secure because he knows she's not as well placed as you on the "mateworthy" stakes - she's not about to dump him for something better, because no one's queuing up for her and her problems. Problem: his self-esteem levels are pretty toxic. Do you want an equal partner, or one you're going to have to prop up continually, constantly reassuring him that he's worthy of you?

That's right too. You put it in words very nicely. She will never leave him as she has no chance of finding a better partner. In this sense he's secure. I am much younger and get a lot of attention from men. He doesn't see himself as attractive, which drives me mad because I am totally swept off my feet by him.

Both of those COULD change

Thank you for writing that. I really need a few glimmers of hope here.

- but not without a great deal of effort from HIM - starting with a willingness to want to change that. If he's "happy" (or, happy enough - as in, not sufficiently unhappy to want to change things by investing the effort it would require) or feels not up to the task (too old, too lacking in resources, etc) then it's a non-starter. But this is not something you can convince him of rationally. This is an emotional investment he's made, not a rational one. He has to FEEL it rather than understand it. Without knowing what his triggers are, and how best to help him move beyond his stuckness, there's probably not an awful lot you can do beyond being his friend. It sounds as though a spot of counselling would be needed for him.

I understand all this and you can see the situation very clearly. Yes, he could do with a professional help, especially support for co-dependents in my opinion. Obviously it's up to him to accept it. I should talk to him about it at some point.

Which leaves you with the choice - do you continue as you have been, supporting him and hoping things will shift over time, or do you set yourself a timeline - if things don't change with him, by a certain time, disengaging yourself so that you're free to find another partner who can give you the home and children you're hoping for "someday", before it's too late for you, too?

Thank you very much OWoman. This sounds reasonable and acceptable for me. I never planned to be stuck with him forever without any changes. Giving myself a timeline is something I can do (hopefully) as opposed to just going cold turkey right now. I think it's still early days and I need to explore it further to see what the possibilities are. If I find there aren't many, then I'll hopefully find it a little less hard to move on.

 

Meanwhile, it's still difficult so please continue to share your wisdom with me.

[Ellin]

You may want a minimum of respect but that's a tough one since your act is that of deceit and disrespect. No one here owes you respect, but yes, they should not be rude.

I beg to differ. I don't disrespect anyone and expect not to be disrespected. The same goes for judging.

[whichwayisup]

The things he says give me hope and we've only had this going for about 6 months and been actually seeing each other for about 2 months

 

I think backing off and telling him that you don't want to be the other woman, that you deserve better and more from him has to happen. No more sex, nothing.. Allow him time and space to figure out what he wants to do. Let him miss you, not have you in his life...

 

If you stay with him, he'll do nothing.. He'll settle for how things are, and that's not fair to you since you want more from him, more than he is able to give you right now.

 

They've been together for a long time, he may feel obligated, and because of that, reguardless if it's right or wrong, love or not, he does care about her in some form, otherwise he would have walked away BEFORE you entered into his life. You don't want to BE the reason he leaves..

 

Is this woman your friend? How involved in her life are you? Just wondering because if he does end it with her, and comes to you, SHE will be really upset once she realizes you've been having an affair with him.

[Ellin]

I think backing off and telling him that you don't want to be the other woman, that you deserve better and more from him has to happen. No more sex, nothing.. Allow him time and space to figure out what he wants to do. Let him miss you, not have you in his life...

 

If you stay with him, he'll do nothing.. He'll settle for how things are, and that's not fair to you since you want more from him, more than he is able to give you right now.

Thank you for your advice Whichwayisup. It is a valid point worth considering and I might do it at some point. By the way we haven't had sex so far.

They've been together for a long time, he may feel obligated, and because of that, reguardless if it's right or wrong, love or not, he does care about her in some form, otherwise he would have walked away BEFORE you entered into his life. You don't want to BE the reason he leaves..

Of course he cares about her in some form and feels obligated, but their relationship in a normal sense seems rather non-existent, since they have not been intimate for a long time (99% sure) and it all comes down now to him looking after her, which in some way makes him fulfilled and secure but in other way stressed and sick, as far as I can see. So it's not a straight case of him leaving because someone better came along.

 

Actually the fact that I'm younger and much more attractive makes it more difficult for him to leave without looking like a bad man.

Is this woman your friend? How involved in her life are you? Just wondering because if he does end it with her, and comes to you, SHE will be really upset once she realizes you've been having an affair with him.

I'm not very involved in her life but have lived next door to her (in a way) for several years, so she chatted to me on many occasions and sometimes told me bits and pieces about her private life. Her behavior is generally weird, but maybe it is to be expected, considering her self-destructive lifestyle.

 

Obviously she would be very upset (and I think it's an understatement) if she found out and I wish he could be strong enough to either dedicate himself to her fully and consciously, or be able to apply tough love, instead of enabling, and demand she sorts herself out and start doing the same for himself.

 

Now, the really big problem is that we are in each other's faces all the time. It would make it so difficult for me to move on, if I decided to do that now. It also makes it difficult to find the way forward, since we can't visit each other's flats and couldn't really live together the way things are. That's way he sometimes talks about us moving away to be together.

 

Thank you for your reply!!

[RedDevil66]

I beg to differ. I don't disrespect anyone and expect not to be disrespected. The same goes for judging.

 

Sure you are, you're disrespecting this man's partner, a women you have the nerve to talk to, but yet are messing around with HER partner.

Is that respectful?

 

The only sympathy you'll get here is from other cheaters