An observation re: OW vs BS on this forum

[NoIDidn't]

And didn't you make an assumption of the smilies used??

 

Oh stop defending me, you shameless...(implied name here)!

 

[Fallen Angel]

Cant we all just get along??? *sigh* I have a feeling that will not have any more effect than the time it was used that made it famous, but I really wish everyone would stop bickering. It is getting us NOWHERE FAST!!

 

Please, I am begging you. I KNOW most of you are generally above the pointless tit for tat thing! If you refuse to fight back, the people who want to keep this going will get bored and stop.

[silktricks]

Cant we all just get along??? *sigh* I have a feeling that will not have any more effect than the time it was used that made it famous, but I really wish everyone would stop bickering. It is getting us NOWHERE FAST!!

 

Please, I am begging you. I KNOW most of you are generally above the pointless tit for tat thing! If you refuse to fight back, the people who want to keep this going will get bored and stop.

 

Sorry FA, but I don't understand your post here. This thread was intended to discuss exactly what is being discussed. Everyone has been (in my opinion) completely within bounds and totally civil, they are simply expressing their point of view on a subject that has many (or at least three) .

[Fallen Angel]

Sorry FA, but I don't understand your post here. This thread was intended to discuss exactly what is being discussed. Everyone has been (in my opinion) completely within bounds and totally civil, they are simply expressing their point of view on a subject that has many (or at least three) .

 

 

I was referring to the thread jacking that is going on in a lot of the other threads on the board right now.. back and forth squabbles over semantics and conjecture about who MEANT or FELT what when they posted. But even in this thread it is getting us nowhere.. read the last days worth of posts... kind of like a dog chasing it's tail.. unproductive. (lol, four or five when you throw in the drive-byers )

[Fallen Angel]

From a drive-byer who wont get more involved with all the disingenuous bickering going on amongst the ladies

 

I do sigh too much.. perhaps I need to be medicated.. then I would sigh less, and not care that everyone wants to bicker.

[silktricks]

I was referring to the thread jacking that is going on in a lot of the other threads on the board right now.. back and forth squabbles over semantics and conjecture about who MEANT or FELT what when they posted. But even in this thread it is getting us nowhere.. read the last days worth of posts... kind of like a dog chasing it's tail.. unproductive. (lol, four or five when you throw in the drive-byers )

Sorry, but again, I must disagree. The whole point of this thread is to discuss the differinng pov of bs and ow. That is what is being discussed.

 

What is or is not meant in posts is a bone of contention. Discussion about what nid meant or what hcink meant is not veering off the subject, nor has the discussion been in any way discourteous... No squabbling, simply various pov.

 

Probably the most "squabbling" that I've seen is this controversy right now about whether or not there is squabbling...

[Fallen Angel]

Sorry, but again, I must disagree. The whole point of this thread is to discuss the differinng pov of bs and ow. That is what is being discussed.

 

What is or is not meant in posts is a bone of contention. Discussion about what nid meant or what hcink meant is not veering off the subject, nor has the discussion been in any way discourteous... No squabbling, simply various pov.

 

Probably the most "squabbling" that I've seen is this controversy right now about whether or not there is squabbling...

 

LMAO.. I concede defeat!!!

[OWoman]

Am I creating a new reality in saying that those posters are no longer posting here?

 

If you're referring to those posters who called OWs "whores" and the like - I wish you were right, but I've noticed at least two of those who called me a whore popping up from time to time (although no longer as active as they once were). So no, it's not just ancient history - they are still around.

 

Personally, it's no skin off my nose to be "insulted" by the likes of them - I wear it as a badge of honour, in fact, as it defines me as "not them!" and, if anything, the fact that they perceive me as enough of a threat to feel they have to "neutralise" me by flaming me is a compliment rather than an insult. But not everyone is like me. There are others here who are much more sensitive souls, who want to be liked and who need to be supported, who are perhaps looking for the same affirmation from "us" that they may have sought from the MM in the first place, because they're in a vulnerable place in their lives. Those people need support - constructively given, whether endorsing of their actions or not - and not flaming.

[OWoman]

Yes; there are affairs that result in the M dissolving and the AP's becoming a couple in every sense. But how many? Not many. And of those that DO happen, the OW/OM forced the MM/MW into making a decision.

 

Since I'm one of the "not many", I have to challenge that claim. I certainly did not force my H into making a decision. Nor do I believe that forcing anybody to do anything - whether deciding or acting - is constructive or sustainable in the long-term.

 

My H and I both, independently, came to the conclusion that we wished to be together full-time. Having come to this realisation, we discussed it - since it was a clear shift to what we'd negotiated the terms of the A to be. We then decided, jointly, that we wanted to achieve being together within a feasible time-frame for both of us, and we both then put our separate plans into action and achieved our desired outcome. At no point did I force anything. There was no ultimatum, no threat, no manipulation. I stated clearly and coherently as honestly as I could, at any time, my position, and he did likewise. Had I felt I was forcing his hand in anyway I'd have walked away from the whole thing in a flash.

[jj33]

How can someone FORCE someone to leave their marriage?

 

If the AP makes an ultimatum, the decision is still the MPs.

 

Either they want the marriage or they dont. Absent blackmail or a threat of bodily harm, how can the AP "force" the MP to leave?

[OWoman]

the BS already has what the OW/OM wants. The full home life, etc. whereas all the OW/OM has IS sex and stolen moments.

 

In some cases, perhaps; in other cases, it's the reverse - the BS gets a hollow shell of ritualised contact (another presence somewhere in the house; someone to cook meals for the kids on alternate days - even if those meals aren't shared as a family; someone else who can be called upon to stay in for the plumber, to pick up the cat from the vet or to remember milk on the way home) while the "full" life is shared with someone else - an OW, friends, colleagues... Domestic alienation certainly happens, and a "full home life, etc" is far from as common as this post would imply. I'd warrant that it's even less common in homes where at least one of the partners is involved in an A.

[OWoman]

Oh silk, you have hit on a sore point for me: the posters that baited BSs just so they could report them.

 

Its was sick the way some of the OW (yes, it was only OW doing it) would practically plan to bait some BS posters they didn't like. The bad thing is that they were getting away with it until other posters started reporting them for starting the nastiness.

 

Now, instead of the multiple personality posters that were baiting BSs with their many usernames - we get posters that just run away when they hear what they don't like. I guess in a way that's better...until they return with a new name and a beef with the posters that disagreed with them.

 

This is a topic that truly angers me because the other OW on the board would act like nothing happened. Silence was condoning that sick behavior.

 

Now it's my turn to be genuinely confused. NID, was this recent? I can't recall this - it might be a "time zone" thing where some exchange happened during the wee hours here (but awake time USA) which was cleaned up by mods before the rest of us got to see it, but I can't honestly remember coming across such exchanges.

 

I DO recall some troll-baiting - but that was a while back, and the trolls were purportedly OWs rather than BSs (though what they were IRL is anyone's guess - saddos, I'd guess) - but aside from that, I really can't recall anyone deliberately baiting another poster, of either "side"...

 

Edit - sorry, just read further on the thread now and saw that this referred to posts wayyyyy before my time.

Edited November 1, 2009 by OWoman

[MizzBlue72]

BS vs. OW - I know that we all say on here that we can learn from each other, but some days I really seriously doubt that.

 

Yes, I do see the BS side of things now that I read their posts. I feel more empathy and guilt more than anything.

Has this caused me to end my A ?? no.

 

I also think that everyone (ok - MOST everyone) involved in the marriage has a part in the marriage failing. I mean, if the MM was TRULY happy in his M, then why is he cheating? Some will say just sex, but I do believe that in this age, as women become more independent, many men are being left home alone - and they are lonely. Not just for sex either - sometimes they want someone to listen to them.

 

I also hear the otherside that states OW only get the good parts. The sweeter side of the MM who has great sex, and we don't deal with the day to day BS. That is true.

 

I think if I were a BS - I too would have a serious problem with the OW on this board - even if she wasn't my MM OW.

 

I don't know .... I too have read the posts of the BS calling OW women and vice versa. It's emotional. It all is. From each side. There are so many emotions at play that it's hard NOT to have a strong opinion.

 

I'm not sure if the BS and OW could get along. I think we could both learn something about the other, but unless our fundamental values on cheating change, I don't think we will ever see eye to eye.

[NoIDidn't]

Has this caused me to end my A ?? no.

 

 

This is another very common misconception held by many OW. I, personally, am not interested in influencing someone enough to end their EMR. I don't have that kind of power over the people in my own home, let alone to try to do that over the internet. I just want to talk about them, give my opinion, and see how other people experience these things.

 

At least, that is where I am now.

[learnfrommymistakes]

good topic

I am here to learn and to listen, and to help. I would have no need to be pissy toward a BS just because I was an OW for a while. I am the one who did something I feel is inexcusable, thats just me. So I feel the pain and hurt for almost any BS, regardless. When I got on this site originally, a while ago, I was lost and scared and sick my situation that seemed completely unique, until I got here.

 

I got blasted by some OW on here, for being kind to the BS, like it was US AGAINST THEM, which is just silly. Good points are made on both sides. OW feel like crap sometimes and are in just as much pain as BS, and BS are in pain for so many reasons. I realize some OW just want to have fun.."I hear a song coming on...lol..girls just wanna have..." and I understand why BS would have an issue with OW who are just in it for play or the game, I get that.

 

But what is good is that some BS learn a lot from OW and vice versa. This is a place to air our thoughts, vent, learn, cry, share, whatever. Hopefully we can all learn something and use a little bit of grace and good will, and try not to slam the heck out of eachother. The fact that we are on this site, already means there is some issue, conflict and situation to work through. BS and OW are sometimes at opposite ends of the spectrum, but most likely, we have all been hurt or lied to in some way....and could use some support.

 

I hope that everyone learns something, and everyone can grow and evolve by being here. It has been helpful and hurtful to come here...but no one said it would be easy....

 

lets hug it out, lol

lffm

[fooled once]

I'm not sure if the BS and OW could get along. I think we could both learn something about the other, but unless our fundamental values on cheating change, I don't think we will ever see eye to eye.

 

I do think many from each camp DO get along.

 

It isn't a point of seeing eye to eye -- it is a point of understanding or having more empathy for each other (at least in my view).

 

I can see where a BS is coming from and since I am a fOW, I actually tend to 'side' more with a BS than an OW just because I have experienced what so many OW experience - the pain, the heartache, the lies, the disappointment, the humiliation, the hurt, etc.

[silktricks]

 

I think if I were a BS - I too would have a serious problem with the OW on this board - even if she wasn't my MM OW.

Hmmmm - most don't, but some do. But, does that also mean that you have a serious problem with the BS on this board - even though they are not your MM's wife?

 

I'm not sure if the BS and OW could get along. I think we could both learn something about the other, but unless our fundamental values on cheating change, I don't think we will ever see eye to eye.

I find this somewhat amusing, honestly. I don't think there is that much difference in the fundamental values on cheating for most OW on this board and most BS. The question has often been asked of OW, would you have a problem with your MM if he had another OW. The answer is almost always a resounding YES. Then there is a lot of fancy footwork about how that would change their opinion of him, etc, etc... but the fact is... most OW don't want "their" guy to cheat on them anymore than BS want their husband to cheat on them.

 

The fundamental values are pretty much the same. It's just the OW believes the MM is being honest with them.....

[OWoman]

I don't think there is that much difference in the fundamental values on cheating for most OW on this board and most BS. The question has often been asked of OW, would you have a problem with your MM if he had another OW. The answer is almost always a resounding YES. Then there is a lot of fancy footwork about how that would change their opinion of him, etc, etc... but the fact is... most OW don't want "their" guy to cheat on them anymore than BS want their husband to cheat on them.

 

Nobody wants to be lied to. If my H lied to me - about an OW, about a friend, about how he voted or about anything that mattered - it would be An Issue. But, if he came to me and said, I have the hots for someone... it would be a different matter. Monogamy is not the issue for me. Dishonesty would be.

 

And I do think that's pretty universal!

[silktricks]

Nobody wants to be lied to. If my H lied to me -

 

Most affairs are full of lies -

 

I don't know for sure which was most painful for me, the cheating or the lying. But I believe it was the 2nd. It's what I spent the most time dealing with during recovery anyway.

 

In regards to monogamy, some people find it important, others do not. I don't know if the percentages differ by OW and BS... But the essence is that neither wants to be betrayed by the person they love. The betrayal may be lying, may be infidelity or may be both. But the core is the same, IMO

Edited November 3, 2009 by silktricks

[bentnotbroken]

Nobody wants to be lied to. If my H lied to me - about an OW, about a friend, about how he voted or about anything that mattered - it would be An Issue. But, if he came to me and said, I have the hots for someone... it would be a different matter. Monogamy is not the issue for me. Dishonesty would be.

 

And I do think that's pretty universal![/QUOTE]

 

 

Very universal. Mr. Messy and I had that agreement to come to the other if we had the "hots" (which means flashes now:p)for some one else. I respected him and my vows enough to do that, as you know he didn't. I do believe in honesty no matter the initial pain.

 

I won't say that I can ever agree or even understand infidelity, that doesn't mean I don't understand the internal struggle of looking for happiness, love and sexual fulfillment. I will say, that there ow/om on this board who have been completely open about their A's and haven't pretended to be anything other than the ow. This in some twisted way I do respect. They are honest with all involved, including the BS.

 

OW, your's and GEL's situations are completely different than 95% of the affair partners on this board and others. I have been to glory also and it's also rare there. I understand your country's standards and norms aren't the same as mine, therefore the comparison is inept at best. Most anthropological studies will show that the cultural "norms" are different(love Margaret Meade studies on social gender norms), I do understand your belief system being different.

[NoIDidn't]

If you're referring to those posters who called OWs "whores" and the like - I wish you were right, but I've noticed at least two of those who called me a whore popping up from time to time (although no longer as active as they once were). So no, it's not just ancient history - they are still around.

 

Personally, it's no skin off my nose to be "insulted" by the likes of them - I wear it as a badge of honour, in fact, as it defines me as "not them!" and, if anything, the fact that they perceive me as enough of a threat to feel they have to "neutralise" me by flaming me is a compliment rather than an insult. But not everyone is like me. There are others here who are much more sensitive souls, who want to be liked and who need to be supported, who are perhaps looking for the same affirmation from "us" that they may have sought from the MM in the first place, because they're in a vulnerable place in their lives. Those people need support - constructively given, whether endorsing of their actions or not - and not flaming.

 

So they only pop up from time to time? Then why do the posters that post regularly that aren't them always have to defend themselves against these accusations when they only really pertain to a very small group of posters that don't even post consistently?

 

I am thinking that maybe the sensitive people should be told "whom" to look out for, not be made to feel defensive with any post made by a non-OP.

[NoIDidn't]

Now it's my turn to be genuinely confused. NID, was this recent? I can't recall this - it might be a "time zone" thing where some exchange happened during the wee hours here (but awake time USA) which was cleaned up by mods before the rest of us got to see it, but I can't honestly remember coming across such exchanges.

 

I DO recall some troll-baiting - but that was a while back, and the trolls were purportedly OWs rather than BSs (though what they were IRL is anyone's guess - saddos, I'd guess) - but aside from that, I really can't recall anyone deliberately baiting another poster, of either "side"...

 

Edit - sorry, just read further on the thread now and saw that this referred to posts wayyyyy before my time.

 

 

I see that you noticed that the posts that I refer to here are really old.

 

But I wonder why you have difficulty believing that those posters were OW? What's with the "purportedly"? LOL. They identified as OW here. Nothing to purport.

 

Thankfully, I haven't seen it happen lately. What I have seen lately is this crying that everything is offensive. Some posters have gotten into their minds that no one is allowed to be respectfully honest with them about what they think about their situation.

[OWoman]

I am thinking that maybe the sensitive people should be told "whom" to look out for' date=' not be made to feel defensive with any post made by a non-OP.[/quote']

 

That would certainly be easier - but it's against the TOS to do that. Posts have to be inclusive, and aside from quoting, may not directly reference individual posters. (See, I've had so many infractions for that I can virtually recite it verbatim )

 

But I wonder why you have difficulty believing that those posters were OW? What's with the "purportedly"? LOL. They identified as OW here. Nothing to purport.

 

I have difficulty believing trolls were anything but trolls and ****stirrers. There stories certainly didn't add up, and their claims were way too outrageous for even a willing suspension of disbelief to sustain.

 

I could claim to be Jesus Christ here - that doesn't make it so (but it might land me in a rubber room - which, I suspect, is where many of those trolls disappeared to)

[NoIDidn't]

That would certainly be easier - but it's against the TOS to do that. Posts have to be inclusive, and aside from quoting, may not directly reference individual posters. (See, I've had so many infractions for that I can virtually recite it verbatim )

 

 

 

Shame too! It would be helpful instead of advising folks to be on the offense to just everyone that's not in their "club". Another thing that's against the TOS that the non-OPs generally don't report about because we are supposed to be ADULTS here.

 

I have difficulty believing trolls were anything but trolls and ****stirrers. There stories certainly didn't add up, and their claims were way too outrageous for even a willing suspension of disbelief to sustain.

 

From the standpoint of people not in affairs, or who once were and are now out - none of the stories add up here. Not just the trolls. Its pretty evident that things aren't all rosey as some posters put out there. So their stories weren't the issue, their baiting and then running to the MODS once they got the desired results was the issue.

 

See, a real troll isn't going to tell the MODS to get other posters "in trouble" and count up points for that. A real troll is only in it for the responses. I don't think they were true trolls in that regard, but I have no problem believing that they fancied themselves to be OW.

 

I could claim to be Jesus Christ here - that doesn't make it so (but it might land me in a rubber room - which, I suspect, is where many of those trolls disappeared to)

 

LOLOL! I think so too! I don't think the issue is that they were giving OW a bad name (as your response and reaction to them seems to imply you feel they were doing). The issue is they had deeper issues than having been a spurned OW (they claimed to be such). To actually take the time to target certain posters and try to get them to respond to you and then banned, takes a special kind of crazy. I think they stopped posting because we learned to stop responding. (See, we learned something from back then ).