Maybe I really am so horrible with which to live?

[prenus.]

I am reluctant to feel "this woman is lucky to have me ..." because I am too prone to arrogance. Sure, it might not necessarily be obvious from this thread. However, many people who do know me will readily attest, in other arenas, I can get quite cocky at times. So, I'd prefer, if I am going to feel that way, to temper that emotion with a sizable dose of "I am lucky to have her, as well," along with it in an attempt to minimize my pomposity.

 

As far as out children are concerned, I try to avoid discussing them in public forums, not knowing who will read what I post nor what that person might do with said information. However, I will say this: they are tied with each other for the position of most important people in my life. My wife is second only to them in my eyes.

 

Would you let anyone else treat you like this? A workmate, sibling, friend?

I doubt it. Unless of course, maybe you secretly like it, in which case carry on...

 

I certainly would not and do not like such treatment. Only, this prolonged behavior from my wife has aggravated my stress levels for so long, I have felt recently as if I were about to explode emotionally.

 

The only other person I let treat me with such disrespect and contempt is my employer. However, I do so for one reason and one reason only: with the questionable economic times since I began this job in late 2000, I have been unable to find better working conditions which also enable me to pay for housing, food, medicine, etc., unless I were willing to commute 2.5 hours each way, every day. I should point out, while one might say, "Well, move closer to work," that 2.5 hour one-way-commute is after already moving as close to that would-be new employer as the salary for the job would have afforded.

 

As far as ADD/ADHD is concerned, this condition is a distinct possibility which I never considered being related to this problem. One of her relatives was diagnosed a few years ago as "ADD/ADHD possible". Since the condition, of which you are probably well aware, can run in families, this possibility is definitely worth exploring. However, a diagnosis of ADD (the 'H' in ADHD is a misnomer retained for historical purposes) requires sufficient symptoms as to impair significantly the performance of basic functions in two spheres of life (e.g., school, work, home, social gatherings, etc.). Even if our home were considered one of the spheres in her life where symptoms have impaired such performance significantly, I am a little hard pressed to see exactly where the second sphere would be. However, I suppose that determination would need to be made by the neurologist.

[prenus.]

Thanks. I know you mean well. I have no doubt everyone here means well. I may think the conclusions or suppositions of (shall we say?) "facts not in evidence" are arrogant and/or preposterous. However, I have no doubt the intention of everyone so far as been constructive.

 

And, I am listening to you and everyone else saying this marriage is over. I have considered this possibility for quite sometime. However, as long as other possible, reasonable explanations exist, I prefer to take a more scientific approach. I'd like to check each possibility, discount the ones I find reasonably inconsistent with the collected body of known facts with respect to her, me, and us as wife and husband. Should I have only that one possibility of "it is over" remaining, then I shall, painfully, relent to such circumstances. However, other possible, reasonable explanations do exist: depression, ADD, general stress, my fitness level, the disorganization of the house, etc. If I go thru each (along with any others I hope to glean from conversations with her), one by one, I maximize my chances to preserve what has been, and can be again, such a beautiful and enjoyable thing, regardless of how fragile it may be. The suggestions I have received on this thread may help to accelerate that process.

 

I understand my efforts may all be for naught. However, if I am right, and this marriage can be saved, imagine the avoidance of loss and anguish I will have achieved. In the United States, where Presidents of the past have focused on the number of jobs created during their administrations, the current administration touts how many jobs it has created or saved during this period of economic recession. By analogy, our marriage is in a long protracted period of an 'affectionate/respectful/enjoyment recession'. Any long term distress, angst, or sorrow I can prevent is of greater value to me than the avoidance of their short term counterparts.

 

It is true I do not want to wait another 15 years to see if things just fix themselves, as I mentioned earlier. However, even if the end, in the form of a failed marriage, were still to occur, were I to "go down without a fight", I feel I would have betrayed not just her and our marriage but the very notion of love, itself. The marriage vows contain within them "for better or worse" and, while I certainly would not advocate anyone in an abusive relationship to remain, until I am certain the cause of the problem is something beyond my influence I do not see how I can simply default to the claim of 'I could not fix my marriage.'

 

I thank you just the same.

[mrsT]

I am really sorry if I offended you. I often think what the Good Lord gave me in wisdom he took away in tact. I do think I have some wisdom in these matters though. I have journied away from good sense and I have come back to it. People are not objects. Even if you are not married to them. We all have a responsibility to one another. You and everyone you mention have a right to believe whatever you choose, but some things make more sense than others. And some things benefit us and others more than others.

 

Love, by its very nature, works toward the other's benefit. Your wife is having difficulty loving you at present. She is not the first person to have difficulty loving another. I don't think we would have needed the commandment to love one another had it come so easily to us.

 

Please don't tell private things about your wife. It will only make you feel worse in the long run.

 

Love and marriage should benefit it's participants. I don't see the benefit to your wife of your porn use, even for the reasons you have rationalized it. And I don't see the benefit to your wife of you potentially going outside your marriage for casual sex.

 

OK, some may say, "Well, it benefits his wife because then he will get off her back, and at this point she will be relieved." But look here, we are talking about true, lasting benefit. Not immediate benefit. It doesn't benefit her not to learn to love others at their worst or most annoying.

 

Marriage is a means for our spiritual developement and maturity. It teaches us how to love and be loved. And this benefits us more than anything else in this world. It is worth giving up trivial pursuits for. Marriage is difficult because it is about the most magnified mirror anyone could hold up to us. I think you see that clearly and are right not to bail at this point. But I think you could use some revision on the healthfulness of your beliefs for your marriage. And I know from what you say that what you have told us is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Once agian, you can believe whatever you want. But look down the road. Where it is going to take you? I believe the things you believe, prenus, will only lead you to unhappiness. Look at it like junk food. It is not good for us. There are healthier ways to eat. Same with beliefs and a marriage. And that goes for both of you.

 

I think you could benefit by speaking a little more concisely. You are verbose.

Edited November 18, 2009 by mrsT

[prenus.]

Within our marriage, sex is a lower priority. My much larger concerns are (in no particular order) the frequent blame I feel she hold against me, the general lack of basic affection, the 'attention absence' while physically present for conversations, the public 'disrespect', as well as the seemingly incoherent explanation for her perspectives on each. If we held the traditional views of sex, love, and marriage, I doubt I would be interested in having sex with her at this point in time because of these other issues. The lower significance of sex within our relationship is why I placed that concern at the end of my "I want" list in the original post.

 

I am verbose on forums like this, yes. In person, vocal inflection, non-verbal communication and other manners of speech not readily communicated thru plain text help complement words to convey supplementary meaning, thereby shortening my sentences. Unfortunately, written English has not developed such means. Combine with the above the fact English allows for a great deal of syntactic and semantic ambiguity, and I frequently find myself writing in a grammatical style more readily found in 19th century literature in an attempt to minimize confusion and/or misunderstanding.

[mrsT]

I really wish you the best of luck. Most of all I wish you love. Your story is really heartbreaking.

[jerseyboy]

Damn man, I started this thread feeling sorry for you. By the end Im sympathetic to your wife.

 

At least we seem to share many of the same feelings of contempt and lack of respect for you.

 

People have told you over and over what has transpired. You keep rationalizing and grasping at straws thinking there is something else, some magic answer.

 

SHE CANT STAND YOU

 

ITS OVER

[hopesndreams]

Damn man, I started this thread feeling sorry for you. By the end Im sympathetic to your wife.

 

At least we seem to share many of the same feelings of contempt and lack of respect for you.

 

People have told you over and over what has transpired. You keep rationalizing and grasping at straws thinking there is something else, some magic answer.

 

SHE CANT STAND YOU

 

ITS OVER

 

Youch! The 1st part of your advice is an all out attack, the middle part is spot on and as for the last part, why kick someone when they are already down?

 

You need to work on some diplomacy jersey, otherwise, get lost.

[prenus.]

Thank you for the wishes.

[Phateless]

Youch! The 1st part of your advice is an all out attack, the middle part is spot on and as for the last part, why kick someone when they are already down?

 

You need to work on some diplomacy jersey, otherwise, get lost.

 

Pages and pages of people telling the OP the same thing and still he refuses to listen. I think a wake-up call is what he needs for his own good.

[prenus.]

Have you ever had someone in your life inspire you to reach beyond every talent you ever thought possible? Have you ever had someone who moved you so much you would be willing to give up everything just to have a few minutes together? Maybe that someone says, "Let's face it, I think you will probably fail at certain goals. However, if you want to try to reach them, then I think you should really try as hard as you can. I won't stop you or get in your way. If you want to achieve a certain goal, you should do everything you can to achieve it." Maybe they privately confess, "You help me to see things I never would have thought anyone could show me." Perhaps, when you share a smile, you feel as if everything is perfect. Perhaps you become addicted to that feeling of perfection and realize you have only ever felt it with that one person. Every other relationship being rocky at best, you marvel at the miracle of near harmonious simplicity in the way you two interact. Is that relationship perfect? Of course not. Yet, you have never known an experience which, on balance, is more blissful, even if imperfect. Then, one day, when events take a significant turn for the worse, and everyone is screaming for you to quit, give up, or abandon all for which you two have struggled simply because events have taken that turn for the worse, you look at that one, that muse who has brought so much inspiration to your life, and say, "Yeah, we have hit a really bad patch. But I don't care. She might not love me. But I don't care. We have always faced problems together. Our current problems manifest themselves not outside our relationship within it. I need to make sure, for as long as I can, we face this problem together." Such is the relationship between myself and my wife.

 

If you cannot see that fact, at the risk of sounding extremely condescending, it is I who should feel sorry for you and I hope you find that guiding light which propels you to value a relationship the same way I treasure ours.

[mem11363]

Prenus,

 

Most women would have a strong positive emotional response to this.

 

What would happen if you printed the paragraph below with a short intro saying - this really represents why I am determined to improve our marriage. And then below this paragraph, list a short list of high impact changes you can make that will likely improve her quality of life.

 

Have you ever had someone in your life inspire you to reach beyond every talent you ever thought possible? Have you ever had someone who moved you so much you would be willing to give up everything just to have a few minutes together? Maybe that someone says, "Let's face it, I think you will probably fail at certain goals. However, if you want to try to reach them, then I think you should really try as hard as you can. I won't stop you or get in your way. If you want to achieve a certain goal, you should do everything you can to achieve it." Maybe they privately confess, "You help me to see things I never would have thought anyone could show me." Perhaps, when you share a smile, you feel as if everything is perfect. Perhaps you become addicted to that feeling of perfection and realize you have only ever felt it with that one person. Every other relationship being rocky at best, you marvel at the miracle of near harmonious simplicity in the way you two interact. Is that relationship perfect? Of course not. Yet, you have never known an experience which, on balance, is more blissful, even if imperfect. Then, one day, when events take a significant turn for the worse, and everyone is screaming for you to quit, give up, or abandon all for which you two have struggled simply because events have taken that turn for the worse, you look at that one, that muse who has brought so much inspiration to your life, and say, "Yeah, we have hit a really bad patch. But I don't care. She might not love me. But I don't care. We have always faced problems together. Our current problems manifest themselves not outside our relationship within it. I need to make sure, for as long as I can, we face this problem together." Such is the relationship between myself and my wife.

 

If you cannot see that fact, at the risk of sounding extremely condescending, it is I who should feel sorry for you and I hope you find that guiding light which propels you to value a relationship the same way I treasure ours.

[prenus.]

Thanks. You know what? I never thought about doing what you suggested. This time of year may be perfect for your suggestion, since the anniversary of our first date is only a few weeks from now, with our wedding anniversary a couple of weeks later. I think I might try to spend a few minutes each day expanding upon this paragraph and print it out. Knowing my tendency for written verbosity, it may even make a small book. I'll give it to her on our dating anniversary if I complete it in time, else I'll give it to her for our wedding anniversary or (ooooo, this could be good, too) for Christmas if I even miss the latter date. Of course, if I am really in a bind, I could give it too her on new years day as a sort of 'marital resolution'. I'm hoping for the first date, though.

 

mem11363, you are a genius! Thank you. I have absolutely no idea if this will work but, to quote the movie, War Games, "I'd piss on a spark plug if I thought it'd do any good."

 

(Oh, and, hopeful1980, don't worry. I haven't forgotten about "The Love Dare". I hope to have something to say about that effort later.)

[hopeful1980]

prenus. most people should work as hard on their marriage when it gets bad as you. You inspire me to keep loving even when the other person doesn't reciprocate.

 

I think you are doing the right thing and I wish you all the luck in the world.

[jerseyboy]

It doesn't matter whether you have ever acted on it. She will never forget that you said it as long as she lives.

 

And she was fishing when she told you those were her beliefs, too.

 

 

She's punishing you for this desire of yours you mentioned and for your porn. And frankly, prenus, you deserve it. Marriage should be exclusive. To share her body and affection with you is a gift. You don't treat it like that when you look at porn and desire sex outside your marriage. True women aren't built to accomodate that way. Women who act differently are lying to themselves and to men. It is only an enterprise for them.

 

Also she can't tell you what for because that might endanger her next fishing expedition. She can't ever let you know how fragile she is when your hands are so clumsy. And she can't put herself into those hands. You might drop her. Hell, you already have. You have yet to discover the true beauty and devotion of a wife. She's made of a finer clay than you, bro.

 

Put the shoe on the other foot. Are you really OK with her wanting the same thing? Other men banging her brains out?

 

 

I completely agree with this post.

 

I dont think though most men actually can relate though, because its not something they actually feel. Its an intellectual exercise, not one thats felt. Like trying to explain to someone who has never felt it what it would be like to find out your partner has cheated. They can conceptualize, but nothing is luke the actual kick in the gut sensation. Some things cant be explained, they have to be experienced.

 

Ive been in a few relationships where the woman has broached the topic of bringing in another woman for sex with us. Some were nothing more than her wanting to be reassured that isnt what I wanted as in "Do you want to....you said yes, I knew you wanted that you bastard" And some cause they thought they might be able to keep you if they did, or feeling insecure about thinking of themselves as less advantorous as others. It isnt something I ever wanted or desired.

 

But twice in particular it was more. The first is a girl that I porobably would have asked to marry, we were certainly heading that way. She had been honest in the beginning about her attraction to women, something she had actualy followed through on more than once. At the time I just took it as youthful curiousity and experimentation.

 

But into the relationship she broached it, and even had someone in mind. It was a friend of ours, and apparently had even gone so far as to discuss it with her first before even mentioning it to me. In retrospect for all I know they had already been doing things. Most any of my friends would have thought it was Christmas. But I felt like she stabbed me in the heart. And what hurt more was not her wanting to be with this girl, but her wanting to hand me to the other woman. In my mind I interprerted it as she valued me so little, she was willing to pass me along between her friends. Not that I needed her to be jealous all the time, far from it, but I wanted her to have some minimum level of possessiveness towards me.

 

I didnt yell, I said no. But over the next several months she wouldnt drop it. And even when she did at least verbally, she was always maneuvering me into situations where it could happen. Her friend would go out with us, as she generally did, or wed hang out together at hers or our place. And they were always trying to ply me with alcohol, or get me into transparent games of strip poker or truth and dare. I was much younger then, and would have handled it all differently now. I would tell her how it bothered me, but I would bottle up a lot of the resentment as well. She would give me its the not as if I want to be with another guy crap.

 

And most galling is I knew even then her friend was playing her. And I told her so. Id always sensed from step one that her friend was attracted to me. Nothing way obvious, but a lot of little things, always trying to make contact, the way you should try to make me feel as if she was hanging on my every woird, laughing too hard at my jokes lol. And just always looking at me. When they were concocting their plans it got worse, as she clearly had my gf's permission to more openly try and seduce me. Much more suggestive and openly admiring, or hanging on my arm etc. I would brush her off, tell her to stop, and asked her to stop onterferring with my relationship. Tried to reason with her.

 

But the whole time I was fereling less and less cared for, no matter what she did. It didnt matter anymore. I became more internally resentful and contemptuous of my gf. I was building walls between me and her I think out of self defense, not wanting to care for her as much.

 

Finally she got what she was asking for, we were hanging out, late and drinking. Her friend intentionally stayed behind. They started with the whole trying to seduce thing again. And I recall thinking fine, this is what you want, you want me to be with someone else, then you can have it and choke on it. Told them to go for it. Wouldnt let them include me at the beginning. I just stood to the side and watched. Letting her break my heart. But I wouldnt let it show. When they went at it for a while I made my gf undress me and ltierally hand me to her friend. I wasnt feeling sexy, farthest from it, so I had my gf get me ready. I just recall trying to pretend this wasnt happening, and imagining we were alone and none of this had ever happened. When I finally did go to her friend, I wantged my gf to hurt just as bad. I left her totally out of it, like she wasnt even there. I gave all my attention to the other girl. And I went slow. Wanted my gf to feel I was completely into her. To make her see us kiss for a long time, just like we kissed. And positioned myself on the bed with her so it was impssible for my gf to really be involved without draping herself over us I guess like dead weight.

 

Whenever my gf touched me I ignored her, and moved as if to let her know it wasnt wanted, but conversely to make everything the toehr girl did seem fantastic. When I heard her crying I ignored her and kept going.

 

A long way to say it fellow, but be careful what you wish for. And when you destroy those bonds of trust and intimacy, trying to put them back together afterwards is near impossible

[Phateless]

She will most likely just be offended that you are trying to change her. She doesn't want it to work.

[TinyLee222]

She will most likely just be offended that you are trying to change her. She doesn't want it to work.

 

Must agree with this statement. I am sorry but it sounds like she has

checked out of the marriage. Pleading and begging and I am sorry

to be harsh, acting desperate will push her further away. Maybe if

you turn a complete 180 she may notice but I seriously doubt it.

 

It's painful I can hear it in your email. You need to work on yourself

and let it go. I am so sorry for your pain.

 

 

Lee

[prenus.]

I sympathize with the fact you were hurt. However, I think you may have completely missed the point of my posts and I do not know how to put matters more simply and direct.

 

Thanks for trying to help, though.

[prenus.]

Attempting to identify what something (anything, really) upon which I can "turn a complete 180" is exactly why I came here. I have been all 'tapped out' of ideas. I have received some new suggestions, for which I am very grateful, whether they work or not.

 

Thanks just the same.

[cheergirl]

This one is broken, maybe you need a new one.

 

I agree...

 

 

You won't listen to me. You'll probably endure as much emotional abuse she can be bothered to inflict for as long as she has nothing better to do in the mistaken idea that you are 'not going to give up on your marriage without a fight.' We see that a lot here. Never works when one person has absolutely no desire to fix anything.

 

To you this marraige is worth more than the Mona Lisa. To her it's worth less than a postage stamp.

 

Sad, but true i'm afraid...

 

Damn man, I started this thread feeling sorry for you. By the end Im sympathetic to your wife.

 

People have told you over and over what has transpired. You keep rationalizing and grasping at straws thinking there is something else, some magic answer.

 

SHE CANT STAND YOU

 

ITS OVER

 

I also completely agree with this chap.... Not to be mean or personal in any way...

 

Could it possibly be, perhaps, the prolix and excessively loquacious nature of your expostulation that has somehow/somewhere along the line been the determinant factor or inducement in the reduction of your spouse's affection/attraction for you?

 

I know it would me...

 

I think others have mentioned this, but you talk/write/sound weird, dude....

 

If English is your second language, are you aware your use of language in your posts sounds overly-formal/pretentious bordering on strange?

If English is your first language, do you think you might be Aspergers or something? Are you not aware that you sound unnatural?

I am not trying to be cruel or mean, just seriously pointing out something you might not "get" or see....

[prenus.]

Could it possibly be, perhaps, the prolix and excessively loquacious nature of your expostulation that has somehow/somewhere along the line been the determinant factor or inducement in the reduction of your spouse's affection/attraction for you?

 

I know it would me...

 

... No.

[cheergirl]

Good lad!

Good luck...

[Texsun65]

With any and all due respect, I do not think you are listening. You have jumped to a conclusion without cause while simultaneously stereotyping all women. Your cultural interpretation of marriage may or may not coincide with ours in certain ways and by presuming the two views do, while I have no doubt you have wisdom to impart, you risk making your actions seem like those, not of an insightful individual, but of an ignorant fool.

 

I am positive your assertion the openness is to blame is so "un-right" it is not even wrong based upon information about my wife which I have deliberately withheld. This withholding comes not from any attempt to deceive or misdirect but from a desire to prevent the unjust criticism or condemnation of her which some people, in my experience, are only too eager, too excited, or too willing to supply.

 

While I do not know what the problem is, I do know for certain openness is not it and would greatly appreciate your dropping this line of argument right now. If left no alternative, I, begrudgingly, will provide such information and the erroneousness of your logic will be so visible, I cannot speculate what loss of credibility on this forum you might experience. That loss might be none; it might be total. Yet, you will be proven wrong. I would prefer, however, to give my wife an extra opportunity to avoid the chance of unwarranted attacks.

 

Regarding porn, you clearly have (I presume due to no fault of your own) failed either to utilize sufficient amounts of logic or to accurately read my posts. As those posts are part of the record which is this forum thread, I will not repeat them.

 

Concerning a "shoe on the other foot", such events wouldn't bother me in the slightest, so long as all of our agreed upon guidelines were followed.

 

 

Wow, Prenus!

 

You cannot take constructive critcism. Do you react like this to your wife. Maybe that is why she doesn't speak up.

 

I think MrsT is right. The suggestion of an open marriage hacked her off to the core. I cannot imagine the explanation that would change that.

[prenus.]

Wow, Prenus!

 

You cannot take constructive critcism. Do you react like this to your wife. Maybe that is why she doesn't speak up.

 

I think MrsT is right. The suggestion of an open marriage hacked her off to the core. I cannot imagine the explanation that would change that.

 

Well, I came here looking for criticism and advice. I thought I made that fact clear. So, saying I cannot take criticism is, as far as I can tell, on the surface incorrect. No, I do not react this way to my wife, which one can readily see by simply reading my statements in other posts on this thread.

 

Regarding open marriage, I think I have covered this sufficiently and will not do so again. Thanks for trying to help, though.

[Virgo1982]

As another poster suggested, common sense does go a long way. You can not afford counseling. Doing more around the house hasn't made her happy. The porn exchange you two had was laced with bitterness and sarcasm. You keep pushing forward and she keeps pulling back. Why don't you try pulling back a little and find another interest? While what you are doing may make logical sense to you, it may not be what she wants. If there's one thing I know, it's easier to change yourself than to change others. So, why not give her what her actions say she wants and pull back a little? Why not be a little spontaneous?

 

To continue this concept, there's a book called The Five Love Languages, which discusses the different needs different people have. In addition, the widely accepted Myers-Briggs personality types may also be useful in this situation. Really knowing who both of you are as individuals can make a huge difference in how you function as a couple. Instead of trying to treat her the way you think you should treat her, you should try to treat her in a way that she needs to be treated.

 

This is not to say the situation is your fault, because she could have drawn the same conclusions. But, you are the one seeking advice. So, I hope this helps.

[prenus.]

To continue this concept, there's a book called The Five Love Languages, which discusses the different needs different people have. In addition, the widely accepted Myers-Briggs personality types may also be useful in this situation. Really knowing who both of you are as individuals can make a huge difference in how you function as a couple. Instead of trying to treat her the way you think you should treat her, you should try to treat her in a way that she needs to be treated.

 

Myers-Briggs? I was under the impression that particular test had been debunked due to the so-called 'astrology fallacy'. Of course, now, when I look for the information on such debunking I am having a hard time finding it. In any event, it may be worth a try, and with "The Five Love Languages".

 

This is not to say the situation is your fault, because she could have drawn the same conclusions. But, you are the one seeking advice. So, I hope this helps.

 

It might. Thank you just the same, whether it does or not.