Maybe I really am so horrible with which to live?

[prenus.]

As you can tell I do "feel like total crap", yes. As far as "a real woman", I wouldn't threaten her in that fashion. As confrontational as I am with others, I refuse to be so with her. When I married her, I promised to take steps which I felt would improve the well-being of both of us. I do not see how threats would accomplish this goal.

 

I didn't mean you should threaten her with it, I meant for you to actually set about doing it. She shows no affection, puts you down, you are miserable and all this stuff could be fixed but she has no interest in doing so.

 

it is not my friend's responsibility to fix my marriage. It is mine.

 

No, no. It takes 2. You can't do this alone. She enjoys how she's treating you, otherwise, she wouldn't do it. Why give up something that causes pleasure? Make it displeasurable for her and then you might just get somewhere. It's your life, you only have but one and if you are going to spend it with someone that shows no love, affection and treats you like a doormat, it's your choice.

I see what you meant. My apologies for getting confused.

[prenus.]

mem11363:

 

My marriage is worth financial sacrifice, yes. I simply, literally, cannot afford it. We live from paycheck to paycheck as is and, as the one who keeps track of the family finances, I do not see from where I could squeeze any more money.

 

And you are right, I did miss the part about input. I didn't mean to ignore it. My bad. I guess, with her, that portion has become so routine and so expected, I view it as a lesser concern. Now, maybe I shouldn't but, at this point in time, I feel the basic sense of affection (e.g., holding hands and not saying, "don't touch me" when I simply place a hand on her shoulder) is more immediate.

[hopeful1980]

Prenus, I have been reading your posts and I notice that you are very apologetic. You're sorry for this or "my bad" for that. While I find this to be very sweet, it's not really attractive in a man. Frankly, it's effeminate.

 

If you are doing that here with anonymous strangers, I can't imagine how apologetic you are with your wife. I think the first step you can make is to stop apologizing. Not everything is your fault or even warrants an apology. When you take responsibility for things that aren't your fault, it kills your confidence and self esteem.

 

Break the habit of overapologizing. Instead of saying "I'm sorry" all of the time, replace it with something else like "I made a mistake" or "I didn't realize. . . ".

[pollswolls]

Because I am new to loveshack.org, I wish to extend my apologies in advance to anyone offended by my demeanor of this post. However, I stand by my expression of offense at what appears to be trivialization of my efforts at making my marriage work better.

 

Excuse me, pollswolls. Perhaps I have missed something. You can't tell me "how many times men have said here & other forums that porn has nothing to do with their actual sex life." Yet, without one piece of evidence, you twice have jumped to the conclusion the only reason men watch porn is because "men are [voyuers]". (By the way, before posting, you may wish to consider running a spell check.) Did it once occur to you, with so many men making this claim, I presume, based on the tenor of your post, frequently and consistently these men might be telling the truth? You suggest I may be the "Exception to the Rule". However, my experience has convinced me men with attitudes like mine with respect to porn are not the "exception to the rule" but are the rule, itself.

 

Now, I came to this forum attempting to save my marriage to my high school sweetheart. I have deliberately turned to no one else for advice, choosing instead to live in stoic silence over this issue for years, in an attempt to save her respect in the eyes of others. However, you have decided of your own free will and without any compulsion on my part to inject yourself into the conversation and, apparently, offer only snide remarks about all men and insinuated attacks on my character with intimations I am a liar. I am amazed. I am astounded. I am disgusted. You do not know me. You have never met me. You know absolutely nothing about me, except what I have posted in this thread. Everything else unspecified about me is extactly that: unspecified. Because I love her, I will take such critiques and insults from my wife. To my knowledge, however, you are not my wife and I refuse to take this treatment from someone who does not even know who the hell I am.

 

For what ever reason, in two comments now, you have described all men with the same proverbial broad brush and laughed at the suffering of mine and that of men in situations like mine. You have stereotyped us, the broadcast of which in this conversation has been provoked solely by my request for some kind of marital 'life line'. You appear to have confounded the orgasm with affection and the erotic with endearment. And you have completely ignored the possibility, for men, the highlight of physical contact can easily be not the penetration of another individual's pelvis but the gentle contact provided by two sets of lips locked in a loving embrace. Therefore, since my asking for guidance in an effort to save my marriage has "Kind of hit a bit of a nerve" in such a way as to prompt your deliberate injection of, in my opinion, an ignorant perspective into this discussion, I kindly ask you do yourself, my wife, and me a favor and either say something useful or get the off this thread right now.

 

I did not bash you - I also did not say ALL men either.

I would be one of those here that believe that putting someone down in this forum is pointless. I merely interjected my own experience to say that this sort of thing happens all the time. Like "Hey Buddy - You're not alone - Many men out there have this issue"

 

As for the Porn comment - I have heard it, I've read it. That men that look at porn do so not because of their relationships. They just do it because they can & it's there.

So, if you took my posts as bashing you - My apologies. It was not my intention. Good luck to you & I hope things work out for you & your wife.

[mem11363]

Your response to Pollswolls was great. Logical, passionate and aggressive. When was the last time you did that with your wife when she wronged you? I don't mean a loud voice - or any profanity - but the basic flavor of righteous indignation.

 

I do understand how awful that lack of physical touch is. I remember long dry spells not dating anyone after college and how much I hated that. So I empathize - truly.

 

I deeply believe that if you can get your wife to interact with you in a respectful way the affection issue has a chance of being resolved. This will take some time and effort and she will have to change some very bad habits. But until she learns to respect you again she simply is not going to want you to touch her in any way - which is very sad.

 

 

 

 

mem11363:

 

My marriage is worth financial sacrifice, yes. I simply, literally, cannot afford it. We live from paycheck to paycheck as is and, as the one who keeps track of the family finances, I do not see from where I could squeeze any more money.

 

And you are right, I did miss the part about input. I didn't mean to ignore it. My bad. I guess, with her, that portion has become so routine and so expected, I view it as a lesser concern. Now, maybe I shouldn't but, at this point in time, I feel the basic sense of affection (e.g., holding hands and not saying, "don't touch me" when I simply place a hand on her shoulder) is more immediate.

[prenus.]

Excellent point, hopeful1980. I suppose this behavior of frequent apologizing comes from the fact I am new to this forum and am not yet having a 'good feel' of what qualifies as a acceptable decorum. In looking for help, I prefer to avoid risking alienating too many people. I also know how easily plain text can fail to carry the correct vocal inflection to correctly convey my meaning. So, I play it safe in forums.

 

You are all voluntarily, out of the kindness of your individual and collective hearts, attempting to provide information to help me, a total stranger, with out any request of reward. I find the practice humbling and I wish to avoid the risk of squandering such freely given help.

 

You may or may not believe this but, at home, I rarely apologize for what I do. I tend to be highly methodical and try to make sure I am doing exactly what I should be doing during each step of whatever upon which I am working. And I routine re-exam my thoughts and expressions to make sure I express myself accurately to others. (I perform this reflection, say, in the shower or going to and from work or waiting in line at the grocery store, etc., so as not to take much time from other activities at home.)

[prenus.]

Thank you, pollswolls.

[hopeful1980]

Excellent point, hopeful1980. I suppose this behavior of frequent apologizing comes from the fact I am new to this forum and am not yet having a 'good feel' of what qualifies as a acceptable decorum. In looking for help, I prefer to avoid risking alienating too many people. I also know how easily plain text can fail to carry the correct vocal inflection to correctly convey my meaning. So, I play it safe in forums.

 

You are all voluntarily, out of the kindness of your individual and collective hearts, attempting to provide information to help me, a total stranger, with out any request of reward. I find the practice humbling and I wish to avoid the risk of squandering such freely given help.

 

You may or may not believe this but, at home, I rarely apologize for what I do. I tend to be highly methodical and try to make sure I am doing exactly what I should be doing during each step of whatever upon which I am working. And I routine re-exam my thoughts and expressions to make sure I express myself accurately to others. (I perform this reflection, say, in the shower or going to and from work or waiting in line at the grocery store, etc., so as not to take much time from other activities at home.)

 

 

I suspect you are a very thoughtful partner. While I would not suggest this to most, I think you should learn to be a little more selfish. When you are putting so much thought into your home and the activites therein, do you put as much thought into yourself and what makes you happy? Do you spend time with yourself? Do you have a hobby that you frequently spend time with?

 

I just get the feeling that you are too thoughtful and giving and do not give yourself the attention that you deserve.

[prenus.]

To TexSun65:

 

I suppose she may very well have decided she does not like sex. However, remember, the lack of sex is not the problem per se, but one part of the problem. It's so confusing at times. She'll say, "I love you," yet cringe when I go to give her a hug. She wasn't always like this.

 

In retrospect, I am beginning to wonder if she ever had respect for me in the first place. Some of the problems, such as refusing to say something remotely close to nice about me have existed since before we were engaged. I was never hoping to change her. I was hoping, however, she would learn I have qualities of which, in a significant other, many people would be proud, however many or few qualities there may be.

 

As far as needs go, shouldn't I make sure I have been fulfilling her needs first? If so, I have clearly missed some need. What of which I am without a doubt at a loss.

 

If I may play the proverbial "devil's advocate" on the "selfish" aspect, I am at work all day 5 days a week, while she stays home; does the gardening; does laundry; studies for her nursing degree; works part-time; handles the children; helps with their homework; runs them to the pediatricians, dentists, and orthodontists; etc. until I arrive. She's exhausted physically and mentally. In high school, I was absolutely nothing of what she ever wanted in a man, physically or personality-wise, which further underscores my wonder as to why she is even in this marriage. Since graduating high school, I have gained 50 pounds, lost half of my hair and become, in her words "a miserable b******d". So, between her exhaustion and my apparent uglification (my words, not hers), how could I have possibly have become any more sexually appealing? Again, just playing "devil's advocate".

[prenus.]

mem11363:

 

Thanks (though I take no pride in feeling the need to post that comment). I have done so on occasion. (I can probably count the number on one, maybe two hands.) However, every time (and I do mean every time), it turns out I was wrong. Perhaps this statistic helps to clarify a little more why I am reluctant to be confrontational/assertive with her. I have yet to be right even one time in such a situation. In the moment, I am absolutely convinced I am right only to see I missed one tiny piece of information. I have been unable to rule of this possibility on the matter of affection. So, yes, I'm a little 'gun shy'.

 

The respect angle may have a lot to do with it and I will work on it.

[carhill]

OP, welcome to LS

 

Here's a thread you might wish to read:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t201696/

 

The poster first started a thread on his issue back in 2004. For him, it's been (at least) a five year journey. Hope you can gain some insight. Best wishes

 

Reading your OP, my first impression is that you are very ordered and analytical. Well done; however, often, in marriages and relationships in general, things are more fluid and situational. They are to be felt rather than thought. Don't know if that's relevant but thought it worth mentioning

Edited November 11, 2009 by carhill

[prenus.]

hopeful1980:

 

What makes me happy is the idea of having everything done and out of the way so I have time to do other things.

 

I get exhausted like her. But I am convinced what she goes thru during the day is more taxing than what I do. So, at the end of the night, when I am exhausted, I want to keep myself moving forward, hoping, "If I can get this one thing done, She will have one less reason for being unhappy." But, I usually fail to get the "one thing done". I usually find myself plastered to the couch from the day's events. I do not see how having a hobby will help any. All I would be doing is providing myself with one more demand for my attention and cluttering up the house while adding nothing to my household productivity for the day.

[prenus.]

OP, welcome to LS

 

Thank you, carhill.

 

Here's a thread you might wish to read:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t201696/

 

The poster first started a thread on his issue back in 2004. For him, it's been (at least) a five year journey. Hope you can gain some insight. Best wishes

 

Thank you again. I will be sure to read it.

 

Reading your OP, my first impression is that you are very ordered and analytical. Well done; however, often, in marriages and relationships in general, things are more fluid and situational. They are to be felt rather than thought. Don't know if that's relevant but thought it worth mentioning

 

I do try to be ordered and analytical, yes. It does not always work but I try. And she can be quite free spirited at times; certainly, much more often than I. Thanks for the mention.

[hopeful1980]

hopeful1980:

 

What makes me happy is the idea of having everything done and out of the way so I have time to do other things.

 

I get exhausted like her. But I am convinced what she goes thru during the day is more taxing than what I do. So, at the end of the night, when I am exhausted, I want to keep myself moving forward, hoping, "If I can get this one thing done, She will have one less reason for being unhappy." But, I usually fail to get the "one thing done". I usually find myself plastered to the couch from the day's events. I do not see how having a hobby will help any. All I would be doing is providing myself with one more demand for my attention and cluttering up the house while adding nothing to my household productivity for the day.

 

It's so nice that you are so focused on your happiness, but I fear this is one of the reasons you are being taken for granted.

 

What do you do for fun? What do you do (besides constantly trying to please your wife and keep things in order) that makes you feel good? It doesn't have to be a hobby, it could be something like working out or reading a good book.

[Minnie09]

Prenus (Lord help, this so reminds me of p***s),

 

your wife reminds me of myself. And the way you describe your problem reminds me of my husband. The only difference is that the lack of sex is more or less due to HIS "laziness". I would like it more often.

However, this is not the actual problem. There is a hidden problem somewhere else in your relationship, which most probably results from your wife's upbringing/childhood PLUS the way you are as a husband.

There is something that upset(s) her about you and she finds it useless to talk about it, because she already has too many times.

In addition, I am convinced that your wife truly despises you and feels superior, as a result of which she won't even bother talking to you. It seems that she feels that you have let her down for some reason. And her very personal revenge is to treat you with utter disrespect. She thinks you deserve it. Ask yourself why. Are you telling us the whole story?

My impression, in a nutshell: wife has serious issues with herself (low self-esteem, possibly depression etc.), marries man to be her crutch, because he initially gives her the impression he is strong, he turns out to be weak (from her point if view, notabene, I am not saying you are), disappointment, depression, unhappy with life, because her prince did notdevelop into the great king she had hoped for....in top of that money problems, loss of respect, etc.

[Minnie09]

Prenus, are you kidding me?

You talk down to other people who offer you advice, because they don't run a spell check, but you spell incorrectly yourself?

You ARE my husband and this is exactly one of the reasons why I can't respect him.

Are you conducting yourself that way at home, too? Are you a little controlling?

Being controlling is already a bad trait, but being controlling with others and screwing up yourself is unacceptable. And your wife knows that. If you want to be controlling and criticize others, you are not allowed to make mistakes yourself.

[prenus.]

To Minnie09:

 

Which word did I misspell? I do run spell checks on my posts before send them and did not notice one which came up. Perhaps my dictionary needs updating?

 

I do not believe I was talking down to anyone offering me advice. I was asking someone whose first appearance in this discussion I perceived as accusing me of deliberately telling lies while knowing nothing about me to either add something constructive to the conversation or leave. I believe this request to be reasonable. Of course, if I missed something, I do want to know about it.

 

As far as whether I am "controlling" at home, an individual with a non-controlling personality would say, "No, I am not controlling." At the same time, I do not know of many individuals with controlling personalities who would say something different. So, I doubt I am able to provide you with an objective answer.

[prenus.]

To hopeful1980:

 

I cannot answer that question. I have spent so much time concerned about the seemingly-endless supply of things which need to be done to the point I have literally forgotten. She does say on occasion I used to be happier. However, if I recall correctly, at that time I also did a lot less around the house, which made her less happy. If the two facts are connected, I do not want to return to that state of 'happier'.

[prenus.]

Oops, Minnie09, I do see one in this recent post. I typed "send" instead of "sending". That's one reason it wouldn't show up in a spell check. :-)

[hopeful1980]

To hopeful1980:

 

I cannot answer that question. I have spent so much time concerned about the seemingly-endless supply of things which need to be done to the point I have literally forgotten. She does say on occasion I used to be happier. However, if I recall correctly, at that time I also did a lot less around the house, which made her less happy. If the two facts are connected, I do not want to return to that state of 'happier'.

 

I do not understand your logic here. You do everything your wife asks you to do around the house to make her happy, but she is still unsatisfied with you. You continue to do things around the house as to make her "less unhappy" with you. What is the distinction between not happy and MORE not happy?

 

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity my friend. I'd say that is what you are doing. You keep doing her list of demands with much forethought and deliberation every day and still she is not happy, but you say you do it because if you don't she'll be less happy than that. It makes no sense.

 

At least when she was less happy, you were happier. Now she still isn't happy and you're miserable as well. Do you see where I am going with this?

 

I really feel like you should figure out what it is that makes YOU happy instead of trying to continuously keep the peace in an unhappy marriage by overextending yourself.

[silic0ntoad]

Hm. I know you love her, but dude, grow a spine. Stand up for yourself. Push back. Don't be a doormat. Because that's what you are right now. A doormat. It is an unfair expectation for you to stay in the marriage if she won't help you fix it.

 

Deal with it. I'd sit her down and turn all the f*cking power off in the house. This is exactly what I would say:

 

"You treat me like sh*t. So here's the deal. You're going to listen, and not say anything, until I am finished. We don't have sex. You have underlying issues with me, yet you won't tell me what they are. I want this marriage to work. But I don't have another 15 years to wait around before you decide to treat me like a human being. So this is your chance. Tell me what the problem you have with me is, and be honest, because I'll know if you're lying, we start having sex REGULARLY (at least twice/week, tbh) and you start showing me the respect you vowed to me on our wedding day. If you don't, then I am done. I can't live like this. If you're so miserable being with me, but you won't help US work through this, then I can't tolerate being with you any more."

 

Then see what she says. If she agrees, and the agreement lasts for a bit and stops, I'd be done. Sure you love her. But your health, well being, and sanity can't be compromised by a "sex striking" power hungry wife who shows little to no respect to you, your children, or your marriage.

[prenus.]

I don't want to give off the impression I do everything she wants me to do. I try but, between schedules, errands, work, etc., I just sometimes find myself wiped.

 

As far as "not happy"/"more not happy" goes, I hoping, if she has no reason to be unhappy, if I can make sure as much as I can do is done, she would have no other choice but to be happy. I know it sounds ridiculous. However, absent any knowledge of what would make her happy, I see no other alternative.

 

Regarding "keeping the peace in an unhappy marriage", I owe this to her. She has put up with me for over 15 years, put her career on hold, and been a stay at home mom for the vast majority of that time. How do I not owe these efforts to her? The "overextending" I do not mind. I really don't. What I do mind is being treated as repugnant by my own wife.

[silic0ntoad]

Regarding "keeping the peace in an unhappy marriage", I owe this to her. She has put up with me for over 15 years, put her career on hold, and been a stay at home mom for the vast majority of that time. How do I not owe these efforts to her? The "overextending" I do not mind. I really don't. What I do mind is being treated as repugnant by my own wife.

 

 

And what happens when peace fails? War. Perhaps this is a "cold war" of sorts.

 

Dude, honestly, as far as the chores, I would stop doing anything- no cooking, no cleaning, no bill paying, none of it. No emotional support. No phone calls. Nothing. No giving the kids rides. I'd make her see what it's like to see something she apparently cares about totally trashed.

 

Stand up for yourself man. Cut this doormat sh*t off. No, you don't owe her anything. Keeping the peace is a weaklings way of avoiding the conflict of change.

[hopeful1980]

I don't want to give off the impression I do everything she wants me to do. I try but, between schedules, errands, work, etc., I just sometimes find myself wiped.

 

As far as "not happy"/"more not happy" goes, I hoping, if she has no reason to be unhappy, if I can make sure as much as I can do is done, she would have no other choice but to be happy. I know it sounds ridiculous. However, absent any knowledge of what would make her happy, I see no other alternative.

 

Regarding "keeping the peace in an unhappy marriage", I owe this to her. She has put up with me for over 15 years, put her career on hold, and been a stay at home mom for the vast majority of that time. How do I not owe these efforts to her? The "overextending" I do not mind. I really don't. What I do mind is being treated as repugnant by my own wife.

 

As stated by other posters, the only way to gain her respect is to stop doing what you are doing now and start thinking a little bit more about your needs. Sure she's made sacrifices, but so have you. I fear you are treated as repugnant BECAUSE you overextend yourself and do way more than your fair share. I'm not exclusively referring to the housework, but your fairshare of the heavy lifting of trying to keep the relationship afloat. From what you've posted, she's not trying to make your marriage work at all.

 

The only way I can see her having any respect for you is if you STOP trying to make her happy. What you are doing now isn't working and I suspect it is the very actions you are doing to try and make her happy that are causing her to find you undesirable. Like the previous poster said, you are going to have to grow a spine.

[hopeful1980]

And what happens when peace fails? War. Perhaps this is a "cold war" of sorts.

 

Dude, honestly, as far as the chores, I would stop doing anything- no cooking, no cleaning, no bill paying, none of it. No emotional support. No phone calls. Nothing. No giving the kids rides. I'd make her see what it's like to see something she apparently cares about totally trashed.

 

Stand up for yourself man. Cut this doormat sh*t off. No, you don't owe her anything. Keeping the peace is a weaklings way of avoiding the conflict of change.

 

I agree. I think this is exactly what he needs to do. He doesn't have to treat her with the contempt with which she treats him, but he should let his actions speak louder than words. Those actions should be to go on strike.