Maybe I really am so horrible with which to live?

[stillafool]

My wife and I have been together over 15 years (dating and marriage). We have three children in elementary school. Since the birth of our third child, sex has occured less and less frequently. At this point, it has been so long, I don't remember the last time we had sex. (I think it was Thanksgiving of 2007.) She won't let me touch her. I am only allowed to kiss her if its a goodnight kiss, the lights are out, and it is only a quick peck. She won't even hold hands with me. She makes showing basic affection a huge struggle.

 

A few years back, as frustrations in general were beginning to build in our marriage, she suggested we see a counselor together. At the time I felt we could not afford counseling sessions but agreed to them anyway. I said, "That's fine by me. You tell me when and where and I will make sure I am there." Since then, she has never approached the subject again, having dropped the matter as soon as I agreed to it.

 

At various times, she has said, "When such-and-such happens, we can start having sex again." However, everytime (and, yes, I mean 'everytime' literally) that 'such-and-such' has occured, I was told a different 'such-and-such' needed to occur.

 

When asked why she won't have sex with me, she frequently says she feels a great deal of resentment towards me but refuses to say why in any coherent fashion. Now and then, she has said she is on a 'sex strike' until, for example, the house is clean. Yet, (continuing with this example) when I clean the house she gets angry with me because 'You are just cleaning the house so we can have sex'. I do not clean the house just for sex. I actually clean the house to clean the house. Do I succeed everyday? Of course not. I have not even succeeded at cleaning the entire house one day. I do not know of anyone who has. Such accusations are incredibly frustrating and demeaning.

 

She often says she does not blame me for 'this problem' or for 'that problem'. However, I can hear, from the tenor in her voice, she does. I feel as if I need to make things perfect for her to not feel miserable.

 

She routinely ignores my opinion, my advice, and my insight, insisting I must be wrong. Yet, when someone else gives the exact same opinion, advice, or insight, she actually listens and refuses to automatically dismiss such without giving it at least some consideration.

 

When we talk, I usually end up being the only one talking, not because I dominate the conversation (although I can do so quite easily), but because she is routinely distracted with something else: surfing the web, reading a book, talking on the phone, napping on the couch. When she does talk to me, she does so in partial sentences. She will get half way thru the sentence, pause, give me a blank stare, and immediately get distracted with something else, usually what she was doing before (e.g., shopping on-line). I will ask her to finish the thought and she will dismiss me with, "oh, nothing," or "I forget." Now, if she were a stereotypical "air head", I might be somewhat 'okay' about this behavior. However, she is an incredibly intelligent woman.

 

All the years we have been together, I do not recall her ever saying anything nice about me to anyone else. Usually, she says things to make fun of me. This was okay when I thought it was just her form of playful flirting. Over the years, however, she seems to take more and more pride in her 'shots'. I am at a point I do not know why she is even in this marriage.

 

The other day, I said, "I love you," and she replied, "No, you don't."

 

Now, I know I am no where near the perfect husband. I know I am no where near traditional. For example, because, to my mind, sex and love are two separate concepts, I have no objection to a 'sexually open' marriage (with certain precautions to protect each other, of course), though I have never had sex with anyone outside our relationship. I have felt, until she says it is perfectly okay for me to do so, I would respect the more traditional monogomous approach to marriage and she knows this fact.

 

Am I rude, crude, bold, and brash? Yes. However, she knew this when we married and, now, frequently asks me to not say anything in front of her friends because she is afraid I might say something they do not like. I am really confused because, on our wedding day, I thought she married me and not them.

 

And, yes, I have porn on my laptop. I do not deny it. I am not ashamed of it. I have it because we have not been having sex. I keep it in a hidden directory (easily done with a mac) and my children are not sufficiently knowledgable to find that directory. Heck, they hardly get computer time as it is and then are only interested in playing chess or other games, always under our strict supervision. So, no risk of discovery exists.

 

However, in what is to me an extremely telling moment, my wife onced stated she was upset because I have the porn. I explained, "I only have the porn because you and I have not been having sex. I will delete every last bit right now if you agree to have sex some time within the next year." She paused for a brief moment and said, "You can kep the porn."

 

In another telling moment a few months ago, she said she would be interested in having sex if someone else was here instead of me. That hurt. A lot.

 

Have I tried discussing all of these issues with her? Yes. Does she respond constructively? Well, if by "constructively" you mean describing my complaints as "ridiculous" or "selfish" or "over-reacting", then, yes.

 

I want my wife to not feel bitter towards me.

I want to feel good about being at home.

I want to feel as if I do not have to panic over everything.

I want to be able to hold her hand.

I want her to want to hold my hand.

I want to be able to talk with her.

I want her to actually talk with me.

I want to actually believe she loves me.

I want her to believe I love her, if not know I love her.

I want to feel she does not blame me for everything which goes wrong.

And, yes, I would eventually like to start having sex again.

 

However, I do not know what to do.

 

Don't worry. Once you start having a hot affair with another woman you wife will suddenly find her sex drive for you.

[Texsun65]

Well, I came here looking for criticism and advice. I thought I made that fact clear. So, saying I cannot take criticism is, as far as I can tell, on the surface incorrect. No, I do not react this way to my wife, which one can readily see by simply reading my statements in other posts on this thread.

 

Regarding open marriage, I think I have covered this sufficiently and will not do so again. Thanks for trying to help, though.

 

 

This response supports my point.

[prenus.]

This response supports my point.

 

How does my response support your point?

[mem11363]

Prenus,

You started this thread weeks ago. Since then, what have you actually done to improve your marriage?

 

Have you started the love dare?

Have you changed how you interact with your wife in some other way?

Have you started working out?

 

Other then engaging in a never ending series of petty arguments with posters on this board what is it you are actually DOING to improve your awful marriage?

 

 

How does my response support your point?

[Phateless]

Prenus,

You started this thread weeks ago. Since then, what have you actually done to improve your marriage?

 

Have you started the love dare?

Have you changed how you interact with your wife in some other way?

Have you started working out?

 

Other then engaging in a never ending series of petty arguments with posters on this board what is it you are actually DOING to improve your awful marriage?

 

Completely agree. From what I've seen in this thread, so far you've rejected pages and pages of great advice, or agreed to "look into it."

 

"Action is eloquence." -Shakespeare

[frozensprouts]

I'm sorry that she is treating you this way.

 

It's too bad that you couldn't sit down and have a real conversation about what is going on/ not going on and try to get to the bottom of it. I have three kids in elementary school too, and I know that looking after them can be tiring, but there is no reason for her to treat you disrespectfully.

 

Has she ever given any indication as to why she doesn't want to have sex? is she tired, does she feel emotionally disconnected from you?

 

Why do you wnat sex ( that is not meant to be a "snide" or stupid question)Is part of the reason because you love her and wnt to be emotionally connected to her? if so, tell her that. explain that when you two have sex, it's a way of "bonding' and expressing your love for one another ( boy does that sound hokey, eh?) - but maybe if she understands that, then she would be more willing, as it would be a way for the two of you to show your love to one another.

 

about the porn- well, it doesn't bother me. i don't want to see it ( t watched a movie once, it was so cheesy I ended up laughing all the way through it- but I guess it's not watched for it's "plot lines" anyway) , but if my husband does, and our kids don't see it, I don't mind him watching it- I figure he knows that it's not really realistic, but fun for him to watch.

 

Can't say how your wife feels, though, as I am not in her head.

[prenus.]

You are right. I do owe an update to everyone who has taken their time to provide advice. I do apologize for not updating sooner. While not meant to be an excuse but an explanation, I have had much less time than usual to be on the internet due to the holidays.

 

I did start the love dare and it does seem to have had some net positive effect. For example, on day 3, the dare-ee (me) is supposed to buy their spouse something small which says I was thinking of her during the day. I bought her a rose (not easy since I left my wallet at home that day). When I gave it to her that night, she smiled for the first time in, well, I don't really remember the last time she smiled about anything I did. However, she did that night.

 

I did say "net positive". Not all the dares have been helpful, such as calling in the middle of the day without any agenda. It turns out I called at a really bad time. She was studying for a class she is taking and really did not need any interruptions. Oops.

 

After a few days, she finally let me put my arm around her without her cringing or saying, "Get off me." I then made a point of making sure I give her a quick kiss when I get home from work or the store or whereever or when she comes home or when I leave or first get up or, if she gets up later, when she gets up and comes downstairs. I decided to start with just quick pecks on, say, the forehead or cheek, since that kind of kiss, generally, has been the best I could acheive without her getting upset and/or brushing me off.

 

Another negative is the fact she finds distrubing how, all of a sudden, when she comes home from work, I am always greeting her with a cup of coffee and a smile and something along the lines of "Hi, Sweety. How was work?" I suppose I could back off. Of course, I could also continue to do so and wait until she either accepts the idea of me doing something nice for her as soon as she walks in the door or proclaims such to be a problem. In the latter scenario of the latter case, I could flat out ask (not in any sarcastic way), "I am trying to do something which will help you to relax after a really stressful day at a job you don't like. Would you prefer I not do so?"

 

So, the approach needs some tweaking here and there. However, the best part, we are talking, now and then, about our problems. The talking is still extremely one-side (me) as I have still not been able to get answers out of her beyond "I don't know." However, I suppose I should be happy the answers have been a consistent "I don't know", instead of the more chaotic series of, "The problem is 'A'. No, it's 'B'. I mean 'C'. Wait, 'D'. You are 'E'. etc."

 

The quasi-breakthrough in discussions came about a week and a half ago after dinner. For reasons I do not remember, I found myself casually talking about our relationship. Before I knew it, I was rambling about our current situation and the moment felt surreal. While talking, I remember thinking to myself, "Wait, I haven't prepared everything I wanted to say. I have rehearsed anything. What am I saying? Oh, crap! Why can't I shut the hell up? Not now. Not now!" However, the more I tried to stop myself from talking, the more difficult it was to actually stop. It was as if I was fully awake physically but not fully awake consciousness-ly (is that even a word?).

 

After what felt like forever, I said, "But, hey, what am I going to do? Ya know?" I tried to smile as if it were no big deal, though I could tell I wasn't making a "good show" of it, and went to clear the table. As I got up, she said, "Yeah," in such a way I could tell she was somewhat uncomfortable with what I had just said, which I really hoped I would not make her.

 

Since that conversation, the greeting-peck kisses have almost all been on the lips. They are still by my initiative. However, when I go to kiss her on, say, the forehead if she is sitting down at the time, she turns her head up for me to kiss her on her lips; I am not seeking them but I find them none the less. I am certainly not complaining.

 

What's more, the kisses have not only been when one of us arrives from somewhere. Just last night, though both of us had been home for some time, we passed each other in the dining room. I realized I had something about which I want to talk with her. At the moment I was passing by, I got her attention, turned to face, and placed my hands on her hips. Again, she didn't complain about me touching her and while I was talking, she even leaned in for a kiss. While still just a peck, she hasn't responded to me in this way in years.

 

The only way I have changed my behavior has been thru the direction of the love dares. (Editorial comment: I readily will admit, the dares are not for everybody. To a lot of the commentary in the book, I take strong objection, such as the unspoken implication my marriage would be completely doomed were I not Christian. However, if I am able to come to similar conclusions which work for me, I perform the dare for that day. So far, I have only not done ~3 of the ~20 dares to date.)

 

As far as my exercise goes, we did discuss our overall general health and are working on an exercise program. We agreed to introduce healthy habits at a rate of one a month to make sure the habits stick. We both know the progression will be slower than we would both prefer. However, we also know the progression is more likely to be consistent with this approach.

 

[With apologies for typos]

[prenus.]

Her attitude towards porn had been in the past identical to yours. I know I hadn't made this point clear and in retrospect realize I should have done so, in the interest of full disclosure. This fact is one of the things which puzzles me. We have watched porn together. After the kids were born, she had no inherent objection to my having porn, especially since we were having sex less frequently. After the third child, sex quickly became a "once a season" event and she still had no objection to the porn. For clarity, I do not mean she raised no objection. I mean she actually had no objection. She knew what porn I had/have and, like you, said, "Just make sure it's not where the kids can get to it." Then, a few years ago, as her attitude towards me became increasingly soured, so did her tolerance of the porn (prior statements about "Let's have sex sometime within the next year" notwithstanding).

 

Just as an observation, if I didn't know better, I would think you actually are my wife. Which is not to say I do know better. Three children in elementary school, the attitude towards porn, the use of the word "hokey", the picture of actor Frank Thornton, and the description of your location as "in the frozen north" are all 'characteristics' I would have expected from her, were she on Loveshack.org. I am not sure if she even knows of this site, though. So, maybe not.

 

While where we live really isn't "the frozen north", though, she frequently mentions (even in the summer time) how much she hates the fact it gets as cold here as it does during the winter. Her mom always kept the thermostat in the 50s (Farenheit) when she was a child and, consequently, she has always preferred warmer climates. I don't know if she would be a "card carrying member of C.R.A.P.". If you are my wife, though, don't be surprised if I mention the joke at dinner. And, just in case you are, I won't be mentioning the joke to start a fight or anything like that. I promise.

 

Really, though, it would be a funny coincidence if it turned out you were my wife. Awkward, but funny.

 

As always, with apologies for typos.

[prenus.]

Things have continued to improve significantly the last few days. Thank You.

[mem11363]

Prenus,

You are making excellent progress. Hats off to you. Well done.

 

As for porn make it easy on her. She should never see it, here it, be aware of your use of it. Simply be discreet as a sign of respect. It simply should not come up in any way in conversation. If you don't raise it, she likely won't.

 

At some point you need to screw up your courage and ask a very important question. It is the ultimate payoff for all your work to date.

 

I have been trying to make things between us better and it has made me very happy to see you respond kindly to my efforts. Now I need your help - I don't know what to do next to take things to the next level - will you help me?

 

If she asks what is the "next" level - I think it is fair to say that you want her to want you. To want your company, your physical presence and your hugs and kisses.

 

And then hope she helps you. This will be the big payoff to all your efforts - your wife telling you how to make things better. Do NOT say you want her to tell you how to make her happy. That question is too big and open ended and scary - this is about you and her and nothing else.

 

good luck - you have earned the right to ask this question

 

 

 

Things have continued to improve significantly the last few days. Thank You.

[prenus.]

I seem to have jinxed myself. After that last post about things going well, they tended worse. So worse, I didn't even get a "Thank you" for the wedding anniversary gift I gave her nor a "Happy anniversary" that day. In fact, on our dating anniversary a few days earlier, which she knows is much more important to me (without that day, we might never had had a wedding day. So, why wouldn't that day be more important to me?), she was getting ready to go out to her monthly bookclub meeting. I explicitly asked her to stay because it was our anniversary. She said, "No."

 

However, tonight, we finally had our talk and got to the root of the problem. It's actually a bunch of problems. Each of these problems, I am in little position to do much more than I already have been doing. She is in little position to do or want to do much more than she is doing: my weight, my hair, the children, the house, her job, my job, she's just not happy with her life and doesn't know what would make her happy, etc. All of these problems combine together to render her distant/numb emotionally, save for the anger and frustration I see frequently. I am not convinced I can do anything more than what I have been doing, which, of course is failing. I cannot make the children learn to clean up after themselves any faster than their development allows. I cannot wave a magic wand and cause the economy to turn around, making jobs plentiful for both of us from which to select. My weight can only come down so fast without placing stress on my heart. Medicine really hasn't found an affordable 'cure' for baldness (as if it were a disease). I cannot make the house organized overnight or even guarantee I can do so over the course of a year. I cannot probe her mind to discover what will make her happy.

 

I think I just need to soldier forth and hope something different happens.

 

Thank you all for listening.

[giotto]

I seem to have jinxed myself. After that last post about things going well, they tended worse. So worse, I didn't even get a "Thank you" for the wedding anniversary gift I gave her nor a "Happy anniversary" that day. In fact, on our dating anniversary a few days earlier, which she knows is much more important to me (without that day, we might never had had a wedding day. So, why wouldn't that day be more important to me?), she was getting ready to go out to her monthly bookclub meeting. I explicitly asked her to stay because it was our anniversary. She said, "No."

 

However, tonight, we finally had our talk and got to the root of the problem. It's actually a bunch of problems. Each of these problems, I am in little position to do much more than I already have been doing. She is in little position to do or want to do much more than she is doing: my weight, my hair, the children, the house, her job, my job, she's just not happy with her life and doesn't know what would make her happy, etc. All of these problems combine together to render her distant/numb emotionally, save for the anger and frustration I see frequently. I am not convinced I can do anything more than what I have been doing, which, of course is failing. I cannot make the children learn to clean up after themselves any faster than their development allows. I cannot wave a magic wand and cause the economy to turn around, making jobs plentiful for both of us from which to select. My weight can only come down so fast without placing stress on my heart. Medicine really hasn't found an affordable 'cure' for baldness (as if it were a disease). I cannot make the house organized overnight or even guarantee I can do so over the course of a year. I cannot probe her mind to discover what will make her happy.

 

I think I just need to soldier forth and hope something different happens.

 

Thank you all for listening.

 

well, prenus, this is bad... what I don't understand is why she's had 3 children with you if she is not happy... your behaviour must have upset her in some way or another over the years... seems to me she resents you for everything... come on! It's not the weight or the baldness!

 

I would ask her to go if she is not happy with you. I can't remember if you've tried MC and you should if you haven't... but your wife behaviour reminds my wife's... impossible to please, always unhappy, until she changed her job.... but by that time, I was resentful and unhappy...

 

Ask her what she thinks you should do as a couple. But be warned... whatever you do, it will be bumpy ride...

[Phateless]

She's being cold and rude. I say you leave, because this woman is showing you ZERO RESPECT.

[torranceshipman]

If you want a happy home life then you need a new W. You've clearly tried to make an effort for a longtime and she treats you like an absolute doormat. Time to tell her it's over so she understands you aren't a doormat. You deserve a lot better than this disrespectful crappy behavior.

[hopesndreams]

I seem to have jinxed myself. After that last post about things going well, they tended worse. So worse, I didn't even get a "Thank you" for the wedding anniversary gift I gave her nor a "Happy anniversary" that day. In fact, on our dating anniversary a few days earlier, which she knows is much more important to me (without that day, we might never had had a wedding day. So, why wouldn't that day be more important to me?), she was getting ready to go out to her monthly bookclub meeting. I explicitly asked her to stay because it was our anniversary. She said, "No."

 

However, tonight, we finally had our talk and got to the root of the problem. It's actually a bunch of problems. Each of these problems, I am in little position to do much more than I already have been doing. She is in little position to do or want to do much more than she is doing: my weight, my hair, the children, the house, her job, my job, she's just not happy with her life and doesn't know what would make her happy, etc. All of these problems combine together to render her distant/numb emotionally, save for the anger and frustration I see frequently. I am not convinced I can do anything more than what I have been doing, which, of course is failing. I cannot make the children learn to clean up after themselves any faster than their development allows. I cannot wave a magic wand and cause the economy to turn around, making jobs plentiful for both of us from which to select. My weight can only come down so fast without placing stress on my heart. Medicine really hasn't found an affordable 'cure' for baldness (as if it were a disease). I cannot make the house organized overnight or even guarantee I can do so over the course of a year. I cannot probe her mind to discover what will make her happy.

I think I just need to soldier forth and hope something different happens.

 

Thank you all for listening.

 

You cannot make her happy. No one can make anyone happy. Happiness is found from within. Of course you are failing at making her happy. You are trying to do an impossible task. She loves being miserable and blaming you for everything and making your life a living h*ll.

 

You have fought the good fight and now it's time to let her wallow in her own misery without you being the blame of it. When you are gone from her life, and she is still finding herself to be a b*tch and she has no one to pick on, she will then go looking for ya.

 

But by then, you would have found peace and contentment because you no longer have her riding your azz all the time and then you can tell her to take a hike.

[Phateless]

You cannot make her happy. No one can make anyone happy. Happiness is found from within. Of course you are failing at making her happy. You are trying to do an impossible task. She loves being miserable and blaming you for everything and making your life a living h*ll.

 

You have fought the good fight and now it's time to let her wallow in her own misery without you being the blame of it. When you are gone from her life, and she is still finding herself to be a b*tch and she has no one to pick on, she will then go looking for ya.

 

But by then, you would have found peace and contentment because you no longer have her riding your azz all the time and then you can tell her to take a hike.

 

Yep. I think it's over.