Beliefs in God and Religions

[Rooster_DAR]

I wonder if the beliefs in gods/religions are not only repetitive indoctrinations through time, but a flaw in our mentality which breeds a human propensity to harbor these beliefs.

 

Are these the same people who believe in ghosts, karma, astrology and other higher realms? Being a non-believer for as long as I've been, I don't live inside that box that many other people live in. I can notice certain behaviors and/or characteristics that would drive people to search for answers through some sort of spiritual mechanism.

 

Perhaps a good field test would be to establish a cult of people away from modern civilization who are born without indoctrination and no common belief system. Would they or future generations begin to look for spirituality as well? Would they adhere to new superstitions?

 

I think that the answer to that would probably be yes, but we actually may have evolved far enough mentally that some would not pursue these avenues. Maybe someday there would be a University (Or other organization) study that asks these same questions and puts them to the test.

 

Would be interesting

[alphamale]

so whats the point or question here??

[Ross PK]

I have read a newspaper article that said that the potential to believe in these kinds of things are built into a lot of people, it's just the way we've evolved.

 

It seems to kinda make sense.

 

Myself, I don't believe in religion, I also didn't believe in Santa Claus from the age of about 6, it just seemed so obviously, not true. And I don't believe in ghosts. I guess I wasn't born with the 'wiring' to believe in mumbo jumbo.

[alphamale]

, I also didn't believe in Santa Claus from the age of about 6,

well its hard to believe in some rotund man who climbs down chimneys he can't even fit in with a loaded sack of gifts....and don't even get me started on him flying around the world and delivering a billion gifts in 24 hours.

[Sweetcheripie]

I have read a newspaper article that said that the potential to believe in these kinds of things are built into a lot of people, it's just the way we've evolved.

 

It seems to kinda make sense.

 

Myself, I don't believe in religion, I also didn't believe in Santa Claus from the age of about 6, it just seemed so obviously, not true. And I don't believe in ghosts. I guess I wasn't born with the 'wiring' to believe in mumbo jumbo.

 

 

Eh sort of off topic but I got in trouble when I was 6 years old for making the Orthodox Jewish girl in my neighborhood BELIEVE in Santa Claus. I guess I was very convincing and she cried to her parents who had to come over and have a "discussion" with my parents. I was born with wiring to believe and convince others to believe with me.

[Enema]

There's plenty of research that points to religiosity being influenced by your genes, not just your upbringing.

 

One of the more impressive studies I read about was based on about 200 sets of twins. Both identical and fraternal twins.

 

As they got older and the influences of parents and social groups have less impact, the fraternal twins had differing levels of religious belief as you'd expect between me and you, however the identical twins (with identical DNA) almost exclusively had similar levels of religiosity.

 

If anyone's interested, the gene is the vmat2. If you have it, you're 40% more likely to be religious!

[pricillia]

I have to admit religion makes me angry... not sure why maybe it is relating back to a person that I don't care for that is religous and judgemental

 

Also if I happen to be flipping through the channels on tv and see a church program I can not change it quick enough.

 

the whole thought of tradition in that sense just makes me sick to my stomach, with that said I do pray and belive in god maybe it is just Christianity that I can't stand.

 

Catholic priests, preaching ect... calgon take me away...

 

As far as astrology is that really a religion, I check out my horoscope daily for fun... and see certian traits is people born in the same month ect... but don't see it as a religion

[Rooster_DAR]

so whats the point or question here??

 

 

No point really, just observation of something on my mind. Just curious what other people think.

[Rooster_DAR]

As far as astrology is that really a religion, I check out my horoscope daily for fun... and see certian traits is people born in the same month ect... but don't see it as a religion

 

I don't think I established Astrology as a religion in my post, I was just pointing out similarities in a belief system.

 

Yeah, I roll my eyes and change the radio/TV channel quickly as well. I've come to the conclusion that most modern ministries only exist to make money and support the individuals leading the congregation.

 

Again, I think we are wired (many if not most of us) to grasp onto something that is larger than we are. I have learned to live in peace with myself knowing that there is nothing larger than us (In the spiritual sense). Perhaps it's harder for people to let go of these things because it can be pretty scary when you realize when you die there is no afterlife.

 

I am very happy with knowing that at least matter as we know cannot be destroyed (At least as far as we understand) and that our elements will return to the universe in some other form or fashion.

 

Cheers!

[Toki]

Perhaps a good field test would be to establish a cult of people away from modern civilization who are born without indoctrination and no common belief system. Would they or future generations begin to look for spirituality as well? Would they adhere to new superstitions?

 

I think that the answer to that would probably be yes, but we actually may have evolved far enough mentally that some would not pursue these avenues. Maybe someday there would be a University (Or other organization) study that asks these same questions and puts them to the test.

 

Would be interesting

 

Actually I just asked this question not long ago in the Theism Vs. Atheism thread.

 

Honestly, I don't know... human perceptions aren't exactly keen. If someone can shoot a hiker because they honestly thought the person was a Bear, then I can see how something improbable happening could be seen as a sign from "the above".

[quankanne]

I got in trouble when I was 6 years old for making the Orthodox Jewish girl in my neighborhood BELIEVE in Santa Claus. :laugh: that poor little girl!

 

I personally think we're wired for some kind of spiritual belief system; some folks explore it, some explore and accept it, while others completely shut themselves off to it because there's no true rationale behind spirituality, it's all just too woo-woo for their tastes.

[NoIDidn't]

I also didn't believe in Santa Claus from the age of about 6, it just seemed so obviously, not true.

 

I didn't ever believe in Santa. Grew up in an apartment. No chimney. Yet, I still managed to get presents every year. LOL.

 

I don't see what having a belief in a religion/god has to do with Santa Claus, though.

[NoIDidn't]

 

Perhaps a good field test would be to establish a cult of people away from modern civilization who are born without indoctrination and no common belief system. Would they or future generations begin to look for spirituality as well? Would they adhere to new superstitions?

 

Already been done. How do you think we evolved to the point we are at now? Native peoples develop their own belief systems to explain the phenomena around them.

 

It would be interesting if we didn't already have proof of how this happens in society. But we do.

 

Creating a "cult" of people that aren't indoctrinated with any known religion is only going to lead them to do what comes naturally to humanity: explain things in terms that they can understand. And then it will only be a matter of time before someone in the group realizes that they can use this system to control the people too.

 

Nothing new under the sun. Nothing.

[johan]

Regardless of who is right about human nature, if God himself knocked on every atheist's door and said, "here I am. You have no choice but to believe in me now. I need you to change your life, because I have a mission for you." the majority of them would tell Him to go to Hell. From that perspective, there not much point in arguing the values of faith or religion with them.

[Rooster_DAR]

Regardless of who is right about human nature, if God himself knocked on every atheist's door and said, "here I am. You have no choice but to believe in me now. I need you to change your life, because I have a mission for you." the majority of them would tell Him to go to Hell. From that perspective, there not much point in arguing the values of faith or religion with them.

 

Wrong!

 

I believe almost anyone with common sense (even atheists) would finally accept god if he/she/it truly made himself observable. And the reason that God has not presented him/her/itself is most likely due to the lack thereof.

 

You are making atheists out to look like bad people, when in reality they are some of the kindest, brightest, giving, and loving people on this planet.

 

Regards,

[Rooster_DAR]

Already been done. How do you think we evolved to the point we are at now? Native peoples develop their own belief systems to explain the phenomena around them.

 

It would be interesting if we didn't already have proof of how this happens in society. But we do.

 

Creating a "cult" of people that aren't indoctrinated with any known religion is only going to lead them to do what comes naturally to humanity: explain things in terms that they can understand. And then it will only be a matter of time before someone in the group realizes that they can use this system to control the people too.

 

Nothing new under the sun. Nothing.

 

It has not been done in an observable/experimental environment (at least as far as I know) though, big difference here.

 

We don't know exactly how some of the ancients endured their belief systems. Did an alien come down and teach them? Did someone from another cult/tribe show them their beliefs?

 

The idea is to see how the generations develop these systems and behaviors that coincide with them.

 

And then it will only be a matter of time before someone in the group realizes that they can use this system to control the people too.

 

And this I do believe and agree with you.

[Rooster_DAR]

If anyone's interested, the gene is the vmat2. If you have it, you're 40% more likely to be religious!

 

Thanks. Yeah I just started reading about this. It seams that Dean Hamer has received a lot of criticism about his postulation.

 

He goes on to say that the gene does cause the belief in God himself, but it does create the psychological arrangement that promotes the belief in spirituality.

 

Hopefully the study of the gene continues.

 

Regards,

[quankanne]

I believe almost anyone with common sense (even atheists) would finally accept God if he/she/it truly made himself observable. And the reason that God has not presented him/her/itself is most likely due to the lack thereof.

 

interesting theory, but one I've got to disagree with: If someone has convinced himself there *can* be no God, for whatever reason, no amount of "evidence" is going to sway him.

 

faith is a gift, and like all gifts, can be ignored or rejected. So while the potential to believe is there, the reality is that not everyone wants to be tuned in to that potential. And the gift is rejected.

 

for most non-believers, even if God *did* materialize on their front doorstep and perform the most amazing miracles, it would never be enough to bring them around, simply because they are mired in their disbelief.

 

plain and simple, faith is a gift.

[Malenfant]

I believe almost anyone with common sense (even atheists) would finally accept God if he/she/it truly made himself observable. And the reason that God has not presented him/her/itself is most likely due to the lack thereof.

 

interesting theory, but one I've got to disagree with: If someone has convinced himself there *can* be no God, for whatever reason, no amount of "evidence" is going to sway him.

 

faith is a gift, and like all gifts, can be ignored or rejected. So while the potential to believe is there, the reality is that not everyone wants to be tuned in to that potential. And the gift is rejected.

 

for most non-believers, even if God *did* materialize on their front doorstep and perform the most amazing miracles, it would never be enough to bring them around, simply because they are mired in their disbelief.

 

plain and simple, faith is a gift.

 

you're making atheists out to be closed minded people.

thats not true. if we were given evidence that god exists we would be only too happy to reform our beliefs, because thats the nature of science.

once something is proven, we embrace it because it is the truth, and that allows us to understand more about the physical universe, which is what we seek.

 

atheists are not closed minded people, we just require proof to believe something, that is not the same thing.

[Rooster_DAR]

I believe almost anyone with common sense (even atheists) would finally accept God if he/she/it truly made himself observable. And the reason that God has not presented him/her/itself is most likely due to the lack thereof.

 

interesting theory, but one I've got to disagree with: If someone has convinced himself there *can* be no God, for whatever reason, no amount of "evidence" is going to sway him.

 

faith is a gift, and like all gifts, can be ignored or rejected. So while the potential to believe is there, the reality is that not everyone wants to be tuned in to that potential. And the gift is rejected.

 

for most non-believers, even if God *did* materialize on their front doorstep and perform the most amazing miracles, it would never be enough to bring them around, simply because they are mired in their disbelief.

 

plain and simple, faith is a gift.

 

I do believe you are misguided in your opinion about Atheists, but hey what ever tilts your steering. I consider myself an Atheist, but if God actually showed himself, I have no problem taking back my beliefs. Like most scientists, I also require evidence to support a claim. Faith is not evidence, no matter what spin you put on it.

[Moai]

I believe almost anyone with common sense (even atheists) would finally accept God if he/she/it truly made himself observable. And the reason that God has not presented him/her/itself is most likely due to the lack thereof.

 

No matter the evidence, there will be people who will reject it. As far as atheists go, I would think that the ones who arrive at the atheist conclusion because of rationalism would accept it. Of course, this assumes a great deal of evidence, as extraordinary claims require extraordinary results.

 

interesting theory, but one I've got to disagree with: If someone has convinced himself there *can* be no God, for whatever reason, no amount of "evidence" is going to sway him.

 

It would be specious to claim that no god or gods are possible. That said, so far every god postulated lacks evidentiary support.

 

faith is a gift, and like all gifts, can be ignored or rejected. So while the potential to believe is there, the reality is that not everyone wants to be tuned in to that potential. And the gift is rejected.

 

I struggle to understand how faith can be a gift. How can it be a gift to see things that aren't there, to mis-interpret evidence, and to make claims with 100% certainty regarding knowledge that it is impossible for any human to know? Further, since people have faith in different gods and the wants and needs of these gods is vastly different and lead to violent slaughter, persecution and oppression I would also question reference to faith as a "gift."

 

for most non-believers, even if God *did* materialize on their front doorstep and perform the most amazing miracles, it would never be enough to bring them around, simply because they are mired in their disbelief.

 

plain and simple, faith is a gift.

 

I find it interesting that in times past, gods did appear and do all sorts of amazing miracles, things like raising the dead, feeding five thousand on a few loaves and fishes, or riding to heaven on a Pegasus, or casting out demons.

 

Is it coincidence that the more primitive people had the most miracles? The fact that there are no miracles now is a very strong indicator that there were no miracles then, either.

 

Water didn't freeze at different temperatures before we quantified it and the speed of light has always been 186,000 miles per second.

 

To put it another way, there were cultures that until very recently believed that unless human hearts were torn from the chests of the living and thrown on a brazier, the gods would get angry and the Sun would not come up. Crops would fail, there would be earthquakes, horrible storms, etc. I am sure that the priests used the fact that the Sun came each morning as proof of their claims.

 

The people of these cultures had faith that they were behaving correctly, and that their actions had a direct effect on the world around them. Was their faith a "blessing"--especially considering that they arrived at their conclusions in EXACTLY the same way modern believers do?

[TaraMaiden]

Faith is a gift?

 

Faith in what?

 

to what end?

 

What's in it for me, that I could benefit from now?

 

Or do I have to wait until I die to open it?

 

And what use is it then?

 

Guaranteed?

 

Really?

 

Prove it.

[NoIDidn't]

It has not been done in an observable/experimental environment (at least as far as I know) though, big difference here.

 

We don't know exactly how some of the ancients endured their belief systems. Did an alien come down and teach them? Did someone from another cult/tribe show them their beliefs?

 

The idea is to see how the generations develop these systems and behaviors that coincide with them.

 

 

I had a question for you. You mention not wanting this "cult" to be indoctrinated with religion. For the purposes of true and accurate science will you also include that they not be indoctrinated against religion as well.

 

Absent this, there is really no point in doing such an experiment IMO.

[NoIDidn't]

I believe almost anyone with common sense (even atheists) would finally accept god if he/she/it truly made himself observable. And the reason that God has not presented him/her/itself is most likely due to the lack thereof.

 

You are making atheists out to look like bad people, when in reality they are some of the kindest, brightest, giving, and loving people on this planet.

 

I believe almost anyone with common sense (even atheists) would finally accept God if he/she/it truly made himself observable. And the reason that God has not presented him/her/itself is most likely due to the lack thereof.

 

interesting theory, but one I've got to disagree with: If someone has convinced himself there *can* be no God, for whatever reason, no amount of "evidence" is going to sway him.

 

faith is a gift, and like all gifts, can be ignored or rejected. So while the potential to believe is there, the reality is that not everyone wants to be tuned in to that potential. And the gift is rejected.

 

for most non-believers, even if God *did* materialize on their front doorstep and perform the most amazing miracles, it would never be enough to bring them around, simply because they are mired in their disbelief.

 

plain and simple, faith is a gift.

 

No matter the evidence, there will be people who will reject it. As far as atheists go, I would think that the ones who arrive at the atheist conclusion because of rationalism would accept it. Of course, this assumes a great deal of evidence, as extraordinary claims require extraordinary results.

 

I think many are attributing a quote to quank that should be attributed to Rooster Dar.

 

Posting with quank over the years shows that she has a style where she doesn't use the QUOTE function, but puts quotes before her words in by bolding the quote and dropping the author.

[NoIDidn't]

Faith is a gift?

 

Faith in what?

 

to what end?

 

What's in it for me, that I could benefit from now?

 

Or do I have to wait until I die to open it?

 

And what use is it then?

 

Guaranteed?

 

Really?

 

Prove it.

 

All that these wonderful questions say to me is that you don't value faith. So its a gift that you would not accept.

 

I can't say that I agree that its a "gift", but I can say that it does benefit one in the HERE and NOW, not just in some hoped for afterlife.

 

And the only way to prove it, is for you to prove it to yourself. That's the biggest conundrum concerning faith. No one can prove it to you. You have to prove it for yourself.