His Needs vs. Her Needs- Can't Achieve Compromise

[Brokenlady]

Hi,

I'm very nervous about this whole thing, so please be gentle with me. My fiance and I have been seeing each other for four years. He was married when we started (I know, I know), but he has been seperated for about a year and the divorce was final two months ago. We got engaged shortly thereafter. For context, we each have kids, none together.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about the engagement. I don't think I have the level of enthusiasm I should have because of how he handled things in our relationship and how he continues to be very enmeshed with his ex-wife. He says I am trying to change him, but really I am just trying to change how he treats me.

 

I cannot shake the feeling of being the "mistress" still. In the last month he has given me the bi-monthly guilt-ridden speech about how he's thinking of going back to her for his kids sake, asked me to leave his house because his ex-wife was coming over to pick something up, and just a couple days ago he shushed me for the millionth time when his ex-wife called his house. He spends most of his time (non-work hours) at his ex-wife's house and he does chores there. Just yesterday he spent several hours raking her leaves. It apparently alleviates his guilt over the affair he had with me.

 

Despite the divorce, and knowing he's with me, she still wants him back. She does not know we're engaged and I know he will not tell her. Supposedly they've stopped having long drawn-out emotional conversations about getting back together, but if true, that's only been the case for a few weeks. Everytime I talk to him about how upset I am with his lack of boundaries with her he says I'm being unreasonable and don't appreciate all he's done to be with me. Really, I don't think it's that. It's just that I've been on the back burner a very long time and have not been getting my secuirty needs met. He wants me to wait longer and I'm getting very resentful about that. It's a real clash between how he needs to handle the end of his marriage and how I need him to handle our relationship. It's like he feels his needs should always trump mine, and that seems wrong. But in the reverse, by my complaining, it's like I'm saying my needs should "win". And then I end up feeling awful selfish.

 

He lets his ex-wife into our relationship in this and other ways. I know he's told her that the amount of time he spends with her bothers me. I feel like he is continually inviting her into our relationship the same way he invited me into the marriage. Maybe I deserve that, but it doesn't seem to bode well for us as a couple. When I tell him it seems like they are still not transitioned to a platonic co-parenting relationship he starts talking to me about how his ex has shifted emotionally. But I'm more concerned about the fact that his feelings aren't shifting - the fact that our relationship is in many ways contingent upon his ex's emotions.

 

In many ways I think - and by his own admission - he spends a lot of time there to spend a few hours wrapped up in the illusion that the family is still togther, like nothing ever happened. So....

 

From my perspective, he has a long way to go before he's ready to let go of his marriage and I am growing increasingly resentful. He has in many ways lost his investment in his individual counseling and I suspect he'll end it soon. He is not enthusiastic about counseling with me, but I think he'd go if i pressed the issue. I'm becoming indifferent to the whole thing - I don't cry anymore and although I love him very much, I wonder if the way he's handled all this has ruined my "in love" feelings for him.

 

Should I wait around some more? Will that be the nail in the coffin of our realtionship if I do? I just don't know what to do because it seems like we really can't compromise on how to get both our needs met (his for enmeshment with his ex-wife, and mine for him not to be enmeshed with her/security for me).

[2sure]

To be STILL the hidden OW, even after the divorce...to be shushed and interrupted by a phone call, to have your engagement a secret, to have him threatening to go back, no this cannot be.

 

To make it worse it sounds as though his ex wife is now taking your place as his confidant, his pleasure away from home.

 

It is still him wanting and insisting on having both. He just switched your roles.

[Lucky_One]

I can't get past the fact that you accepted a marriage proposal when he has just said that he is thinking of going back to his XW? It sounds like he ONLY proposed to try to give you some sort of security and get you off his back, but he doesn't sound nearly ready to get married.

 

I would suggest breaking off your pseudo-engagement, and just try dating. Stop being at his house all the time, stop letting him have free rein to come and go at your house. Date like "normal" people who are just starting to get to know each other in a real-life relationship. Make him earn your love - IF he wants it. I am not convinced that he does, to be honest.

 

He sounds like the sort of MM who got busted by his BS, she pushed for the divorce, and now he feels stuck with you by default - like he needs to prove to his BS and to the world that the EMA was worthy of all the pain and the guilt. If he ends your R now, then what was all of that guilt and pain for - it was just pointless.

 

Have you two considered premarital counseling?

[Brokenlady]

To be STILL the hidden OW, even after the divorce...to be shushed and interrupted by a phone call, to have your engagement a secret, to have him threatening to go back, no this cannot be.

 

Yeah, that's kinda what i thought too. But he claims all these people he's talked to it about think I'm just overreacting.

 

To make it worse it sounds as though his ex wife is now taking your place as his confidant, his pleasure away from home.

 

To be fair, I don't think she ever stopped being his confidant.

 

It is still him wanting and insisting on having both. He just switched your roles.

 

Sadly, I get that feeling too. I am glad though that other people besides me can see it though. I hate it when he makes me feel like I'm unreasonable.

[carhill]

Move out, assuming you live together. If you don't live together, spend less time at his house

 

It's really that simple. He can have you full time when he's ready to be a full-time fiance or husband. Not one minute before.

 

He's either immature or is still emotionally attached to his ex. Going through a divorce with similar separate domiciles, I can tell you assuredly that my stbx can mow her own lawn and rake her own leaves, or hire someone to do it for her

 

He's not done yet. It has nothing to do with you. Accept that.

[Brokenlady]

I can't get past the fact that you accepted a marriage proposal when he has just said that he is thinking of going back to his XW? It sounds like he ONLY proposed to try to give you some sort of security and get you off his back, but he doesn't sound nearly ready to get married.

 

Unfortunately I think you are right. I am not ready to get married either, but lately he's talked about introducing me to his kids and I wonder what the point is when he's still all jumbled up with his wife. Plus, I'm not sure I believe he has any intention of introducing me to the kids, it wasn't anything concrete. Truthfully, I don't think they're ready either, based on things he's told me.

 

He sounds like the sort of MM who got busted by his BS, she pushed for the divorce, and now he feels stuck with you by default - like he needs to prove to his BS and to the world that the EMA was worthy of all the pain and the guilt. If he ends your R now, then what was all of that guilt and pain for - it was just pointless.

 

I don't think he feels stuck with me by default, his ex really wants him back and he knows he can do that at any time. As much as he has has these periods of feeling like he must go back for the kids, he has never attempted to reconcile with her. But yeah, the second part i think is right on.

 

Have you two considered premarital counseling?

 

I brought it up and we scheduled an appointment (couple's counseling). We ended up cancelling because he wanted to take me to dinner instead. I asked him the other day if he thinks it would help if we went and he said "I already know what I need to do. We communicate really well, it's just that I can't get there fast enough for you".

[Brokenlady]

Move out, assuming you live together. If you don't live together, spend less time at his house

 

We don't live together, and I have been leery of moving in.

 

It's really that simple. He can have you full time when he's ready to be a full-time fiance or husband. Not one minute before.

 

He's either immature or is still emotionally attached to his ex. Going through a divorce with similar separate domiciles, I can tell you assuredly that my stbx can mow her own lawn and rake her own leaves, or hire someone to do it for her

 

My thoughts exactly. And it's not as if he offers to help me at my house, not that i need him to. And I have helped him alot with his place and now I'm so resentful that I don't really lift a finger over there anymore.

 

He's not done yet. It has nothing to do with you. Accept that.

 

I really appreciate your perspective as a guy. I'm trying to accept it. It's just hard when I have him telling me I'm being ridiculous and should just chill out. He makes me question myself.

[Lucky_One]

He canceled something that was important to you AND important to the future of you two as a couple - in order to go to dinner? You couldn't eat before or after? You couldn't go out another night?

 

He dangled a romantic dinner carrot in front of you, because that would get him off the hook from having to be asked pointed, painful questions, and having to answer them honestly.

 

He doesn't communicate well with you at all - you may talk well together, but he isn't being honest with you. Instead, he is turning your unhappiness into an issue that is only caused by you - he just can't please you at the speed you want - it's all your fault.

 

And in truth - he is right about part of it. This phase of your unhappiness IS all about you and what you are not willing to do/are willing to do about your own future and your own happiness. You need to make clear boundaries, you need to set clear expectations, you need to hold firm and not give in (dinner in lieu of counseling - good lord).

 

You got engaged and you have never met his children? Isn't that sort of, backwards, or something????

[carhill]

He's thinking the relationship. Beware of that. Fair warning.

[jwi71]

It's just hard when I have him telling me I'm being ridiculous and should just chill out. He makes me question myself.

 

Snake alert.

 

This is exactly what he was telling his now xW when the topic of you came up. I bet this is a real pattern. Sadly, you are now on the receiving end of gas lighting. Google it.

 

To be perfectly frank, they aren't divorced at all. Oh, they may have a piece of paper but it means nothing. It was a weapon used to hurt the other.

 

And when it comes time to choose...he chooses her. Sorry, that's just what his actions say to me.

[Spark1111]

Snake alert.

 

This is exactly what he was telling his now xW when the topic of you came up. I bet this is a real pattern. Sadly, you are now on the receiving end of gas lighting. Google it.

 

To be perfectly frank, they aren't divorced at all. Oh, they may have a piece of paper but it means nothing. It was a weapon used to hurt the other.

 

And when it comes time to choose...he chooses her. Sorry, that's just what his actions say to me.

 

I agree. He sounds awfully confused, if not downright immature in his emotions.

 

He doesn't seem 100% invested in either relationship, but doesn't want either one to end. He hasn't owned either choice; you, as the woman he will move into the future with, or her, making her his xW so she is free to find a new man.

 

Pull the trigger and make him choose. Refuse to see him until you've met the entire family, including the soon to be xW!

[Brokenlady]

You got engaged and you have never met his children? Isn't that sort of, backwards, or something????

 

To be fair, our whole relationship has been backwards. His kids have not taken the news of his cheating with me and leaving their mother well. So, I honestly haven't pushed that issue because I truly have felt that they aren't ready. Heck, they haven't even been able to get used to the idea of their parents being divorced because in some ways they don't act like they are (divorced).

[Brokenlady]

He's thinking the relationship. Beware of that. Fair warning.

 

What does "thinking the relationship" mean?

[Brokenlady]

Snake alert.

 

This is exactly what he was telling his now xW when the topic of you came up. I bet this is a real pattern. Sadly, you are now on the receiving end of gas lighting. Google it.

 

Wow. So there is a word for that feeling I've been getting.

 

To be perfectly frank, they aren't divorced at all. Oh, they may have a piece of paper but it means nothing. It was a weapon used to hurt the other.

 

That's been my feeling - there's a lot of "unfinished business".

 

And when it comes time to choose...he chooses her. Sorry, that's just what his actions say to me.

 

Is that really true? I think it's a bit of a split, sometimes he choose her, sometimes he chooses me, but it seems like its usually her first, I complain, then he apologizes and chooses me. I might add that he says he left "just to be with" me. In part I think I'm supposed to fall all over myself being grateful, and in part take that as a sign that he chose me. I sure wish though that he had done so on the basis of the problems in the marriage. But of course, for all his complaining over the years he now says it wasn't a bad marriage, just not a "good" one either.

 

And for the record, one thing that has really bothered me is that up until recently his ex-wife frequently begged him to come back, if there was any chance of that happening, and he'd give her the "I don't know", instead of definitively saying something to indicate that he'd made a permanent decision. Am I making too much of that?

Edited November 16, 2009 by Brokenlady

[Brokenlady]

I agree. He sounds awfully confused, if not downright immature in his emotions.

 

He doesn't seem 100% invested in either relationship, but doesn't want either one to end. He hasn't owned either choice; you, as the woman he will move into the future with, or her, making her his xW so she is free to find a new man.

 

Pull the trigger and make him choose. Refuse to see him until you've met the entire family, including the soon to be xW!

 

As you might imagine, his ex-wife hates me. I doubt very seriously she'd agree to meet with me. She blames me 100% for the demise of the marriage. I guess it's easier than blaming him.

 

I have met other members of his family. I am supposed to meet his sister Friday (and her affair partner!). I don't know how I am going to pull of the logistics of that or if it's even worth the effort to try with someone who is still terribly hung up on his ex. Do you really think it would help his ability to be invested in our realtionship if I met more of his family?

 

I am not a secret publicly, just to his wife. We go out in public like a normal couple, he has introduced me to collegues, it's just the secrecy and smoke and mirrors with his wife that bugs me because for obvious reasons, she is the major threat to our relationship because he still hasn't changed their relationship into a platonic coparenting one.

[2sure]

Being a secret to his ex wife and to his children means that your relationship is still the hidden one. You can meet his sister and her affair partner because THAT relationship is the same as yours. Secret.

 

Unless you have met his parents , his children, etc...your engagement and relationship ...are not out in the open. And thats OK, just recognize it for what it is and wait until it is something more solid.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

BL,

 

I want to comment on him telling you you're trying to change him. He's right, you are. NOT THAT YOU'RE WRONG, to expect him to change. I was told that part of the OW "understanding me, getting me, ect..." was because she KNEW of his ambivalence and accepted him regardless. Sure, that's one thing when a lover is married, but when he/she proceeds to plan a life alone with you, expectations change, as they should. BUT NOW, you know longer accept him for who he is, now you are imposing YOUR wants and desires on him and that's a burden. Shouldn't be but it is. Whether is is naturally this selfish and immature or its all part of the divorce and affair that have brought this ugly side out in him is yet to be seen. The only way to know and change the dynamics in my mind is to leave him to himself until he gets it figured out.

 

You are being gas lighted. It will make you think that you are crazy, so keep friends around to help you keep your head straight while its going on. Sure he should be spending time with his children, even rushing over if their heater goes out and its freezing outside, but raking the yard??? No, that's an excuse to be there. And his fiance is still a secret???? WTH?? Sounds like he's not ready for his wife to start dating yet. That makes no sense whatsoever!

 

You don't need couples counseling to know where he is coming from and where you stand, he shows you that on a daily basis with his actions, no words required.

 

Sorry, hope things start looking up.

[Brokenlady]

Being a secret to his ex wife and to his children means that your relationship is still the hidden one. You can meet his sister and her affair partner because THAT relationship is the same as yours. Secret.

 

Unless you have met his parents , his children, etc...your engagement and relationship ...are not out in the open. And thats OK, just recognize it for what it is and wait until it is something more solid.

 

I have met his mother. And his ex-wife knows about it and got really pissed at his mother for it. She and I get along well. He is not close with his brother or his father, so not meeting them isn't a big surprise.

 

Thanksgiving is going to be interesting because a relative of mine is coming to be with me and I'd like him to meet her, but he's going to be with his extended family. I could go with him, except for my relative. It'll probably look like I'm avpiding them, but I'm not, I just don't see how I can do it yet. Same thing with meeting his sister the next day, I don't know how I can do that with my relative (who is coming from far away).

[Brokenlady]

Sure he should be spending time with his children, even rushing over if their heater goes out and its freezing outside, but raking the yard??? No, that's an excuse to be there.

 

That's my feeling exactly. I would expect that he'd help her in an emergency as my ex would with me, but this seems like more. He even said it alleviated his guilt. And raking the leaves was no small project - he spent at least 5 hours doing it over 2 days. And she didn't even say thank you.

 

And his fiance is still a secret???? WTH?? Sounds like he's not ready for his wife to start dating yet. That makes no sense whatsoever!

 

Funny you should mention this. I know he talked with his sister about this the other day. I think he's not ready either, that's why he keeps her hanging on. But the real irony is that he tells me that he doesn't think his guilt will let up until she gets a boyfriend - yet he sabotages her ability to move on! It's maddening.

 

Thanks for your thoughts and kind words.

[justforfun]

Sounds like the roles are reversed. Your now the partner he is ambiguous about. And the ex-wife may be the 'mistress' already or they are heading towards it.

[Brokenlady]

Sounds like the roles are reversed. Your now the partner he is ambiguous about. And the ex-wife may be the 'mistress' already or they are heading towards it.

 

She has said something to him along the lines of feeling like his mistress, being "second best", etc. I know it's really stupid for me to think this way, but I feel like he is sort of emotionally cheating on me by not having good boundaries with her. He seems to think it would be cruel to reduce her to platonic status. It's taken him a year just to get this far. She is basically the driving force of the parameters of the relationship - he seems to need it that way to avoid being overwhelmed by guilt. (She filed for divorce, not him, and if she hadn't I'm not confident he would have done so by now, in fact I'm almost positive he would not have).

 

His ex-wife is still wearing her wedding ring, so he says. I'm afraid that says alot.

[justforfun]

I'm sorry but I don't see this going anywhere that's good for you.

 

Maybe some of the other posters will disagree with me. Maybe that will help. IMHO, I don't see anything to indicate that he really wants out of the marriage.

 

Maybe you need to back out and get yourself through this difficult time. I figure that breaking up with him would feel like everything would have been for nothing. But so would carrying on with this situation that I don't see getting much better than it is.

 

Good luck with it though.

[Brokenlady]

Thank you so much everyone for replying. It is good to know that I am not being unreasonable in my expectations for him. It is hard to hear from him that I am not understanding enough when i don't think anyone in the world could be understanding enough after all I've been through.

[PhoenixRise]

She has said something to him along the lines of feeling like his mistress, being "second best", etc. I know it's really stupid for me to think this way, but I feel like he is sort of emotionally cheating on me by not having good boundaries with her. He seems to think it would be cruel to reduce her to platonic status. It's taken him a year just to get this far. She is basically the driving force of the parameters of the relationship - he seems to need it that way to avoid being overwhelmed by guilt. (She filed for divorce, not him, and if she hadn't I'm not confident he would have done so by now, in fact I'm almost positive he would not have).

 

His ex-wife is still wearing her wedding ring, so he says. I'm afraid that says alot.

 

 

 

Wait....What????

 

 

The wife filed for divorce?

 

Brokenlady are you hearing from objective sources that it is the wife who wants to reconcile the marriage? Or is this info coming from your fiance?

[Brokenlady]

Wait....What????

 

The wife filed for divorce?

 

Brokenlady are you hearing from objective sources that it is the wife who wants to reconcile the marriage? Or is this info coming from your fiance?

 

I really believed she filed to shock him into coming back. When that didn't work, she finalized hoping that would be his wake up call (and because she was mad that we went away for a weekend). She has told the whole family (his family) that she regrets ever filing. I've heard that from both his mother and cousins. And I've overheard her on the phone with him saying she wants to reconcile, that she believes they can still work it out if he's willing to try. She tried to get him to agree to go to post-divorce reconcilation counseling, but he wouldn't agree to go.