Prayers are ALWAYS answered!

[EarthGirl]

With all sympathy to LB, and I think she knows I care enough not to say anything that is hurtful...and I certainly am not trying now....

 

An answer can be a yes or a no. And at the time, the answer received may not be the answer we want. However, many can say from experience that later the answer was the best for them...even when they first thought it was not.

 

that is really one of the most patronizing ideas people have in this world...like the rolling stones song (HATE that song-like the devil echoing in your mind)..I know you think you are being the more enlightened one James, by saying that, but actually I think that the enlightened view point is actually even HIGHER than that one there.

 

To say ..well since this IS the "love shack" that is one person gets lucky and ends up falling in love with and marrying the girl/guy or their dreams and that person treats them very well..the couple may have hard times in life as we all do...But to basically say that that is god's will and meant to be and they got what they want AND need and that's the way it's supposed to be..but say I or someone else does not get that lucky...or of course any of the other horrible things that do happen to people ..disease, starvation, rape, etc. etc. etc.

 

that somehow oh..we did not get what we want but it's ok cause we got what we NEED...well it's kinda like saying that some people just deserve and "need" very very bad things to happen to them for things to be right in the world as a whole, and some people don't and will get off much easier...and that is very condescending and far above your pay grade as a regular mortal to determine something such as that.

 

you know I think sometimes it's ok to just call a bad thing just what it is...a bad thing. does not mean you are not grateful to God for the good things or even for the bad things in as much as it may teach you something...and maybe in the end you will see it as something that was meant to be in the grand scheme of things..but that does not mean that it was not a bad thing and you did not have the right to be upset about it..and it certainly does not mean that anyone else has the right to tell you that it was something you NEEDED. If when I die I face God and HE (or HER) tells me that himself then I will accept it and believe it..otherwise...I think I know what I "want" and "need" and what I BOTH want and need better than anyone else.

[Moose]

These things you speak about can be rationalized easily.

 

We are all in, "process".

 

Terrible things happen to good people, and great things happen to bad people.

 

It is up to you, (and others) to learn and grow positively. Lesson learned.

[EarthGirl]

I don't rationalize life..it is way too complicated for that, and to do so I think would be naive and disrespectful to the universe somehow.

 

But just so you know I AM learning and growing.

 

all I am saying is just don't assume that I have some "lesson" to learn more than somebody, anybody else does...again...this is condescending and patronizing..we all have things to learn..there's a whole lot to learn and nobody knows all.

[Trimmer]

Usually there are three outcomes:

 

1. Yes

2. No

3. Not yet

 

In His Infinite wisdom, and our finite minds can not comprehend His logic.

 

Only one thing is certain....all things happen according to His will.

So what purpose does it serve to ask for anything from Him?

 

I get the idea of prayer as a way of meditating, communing with God, but from everything I'm seeing here, and on the topic of asking and answering, it seems there is general agreement that He will do what He will, in His time. I'm wondering what effect asking is expected to have?

[Angel1111]

I think it's a sad concept that you believe we shouldn't pray for what we want. What does this say about your opinion of God? This is my beef about religion - although I know you said you're not religious - but they paint this picture of a God who withholds and doesn't give a fig about our desires. Humans are designed to want and desire and that is what drives us. To say that we shouldn't have what we want is to say that our very natures are wrong. I'm not buying it.

 

When it comes to praying for other people, I think this is where people get confused. Everyone has free will and you wouldn't want someone praying and changing your life against your will. The best you can do when praying for someone else is to say something along the lines of 'if it is also their will' or 'bring someone into my life like that person or someone better'.

 

I have heard of people praying to win the lottery and they have. I think that most people don't accomplish this because most people have been taught that money is bad, they don't deserve it, or they can't make the mental leap and believe that they can win. But there's really nothing wrong with praying for money - and in abundance. As you say, it's all about belief.

[EarthGirl]

I think it's a sad concept that you believe we shouldn't pray for what we want. What does this say about your opinion of God? This is my beef about religion - although I know you said you're not religious - but they paint this picture of a God who withholds and doesn't give a fig about our desires. Humans are designed to want and desire and that is what drives us. To say that we shouldn't have what we want is to say that our very natures are wrong. I'm not buying it.

 

When it comes to praying for other people, I think this is where people get confused. Everyone has free will and you wouldn't want someone praying and changing your life against your will. The best you can do when praying for someone else is to say something along the lines of 'if it is also their will' or 'bring someone into my life like that person or someone better'.

 

I have heard of people praying to win the lottery and they have. I think that most people don't accomplish this because most people have been taught that money is bad, they don't deserve it, or they can't make the mental leap and believe that they can win. But there's really nothing wrong with praying for money - and in abundance. As you say, it's all about belief.

 

I don't' think I ever said I was not religious..actually I was raised "casually" Catholic, never really bought into it but definitely enjoyed some aspects of it. I am just a very very open person to all trains of thought and faith etc. But actually what I really really want is to convert to Judaism someday.

 

AND actually I completely agree with most of what you said. We ARE made to desire and want things and that is very healthy and right. THIS IS ONE OF MY MAIN THINGS! It is just in my personal experience I have asked many many MANY times for things I wanted and needed (and usually they weren't for "frivolous" things but just my big dreams, like my dream career and love of course, children of my own, just to travel a little bit to places I've always wanted to go etc. but definitely not for millions or billions of dollars or world fame or anything) AND taken steps of my own to take charge of my own life and try to work on and try to encourage those things into my life ...but it just has not worked.

 

I also just think logically...I just do not think that is the way life works...I just don't. It's hard to explain..just not my beliefs. I mean I DO think God "withholds" but deep down in me I am still one of those people that hopes, maybe even believes that it's for these mysterious (good) reasons and all and he just pays every single thing back someday. Just takes a little longer for some than for others.

 

Yeah I am definitely NOT one of those people who thinks you can kind of think something into happening if you're just positive and situate it in your mind the right way and it'll come to you..I think that is all bullsh*t that certain people are trying to get rich off of because so many people want so badly to believe it. It is a feeling of wanting control that is only God's to have...it doesn't mean we are powerless though, we should not just lay down and die and not take those steps becuase they CAN change things ( and maybe as souls...we are all the more powerful for not having complete control...if that makes any sense), but I do not believe in that kind of thing...I don't believe in karma whatsoever either, however if it did exist, I am sure that these people would eventually have to give back all their loot to the poor broken hearted people they conned.

Edited November 24, 2009 by EarthGirl

[Angel1111]

I don't' think I ever said I was not religious..actually I was raised "casually" Catholic, never really bought into it but definitely enjoyed some aspects of it.

 

I also just think logically...I just do not think that is the way life works...I just don't. It's hard to explain..just not my beliefs. I mean I DO think God "withholds" but deep down in me I am still one of those people that hopes, maybe even believes that it's for these mysterious (good) reasons and all and he just pays every single thing back someday. Just takes a little longer for some than for others.

 

First of all, I was talking to TonyT - the OP. But in glancing over your post, I'd say that my first impression is that you have too much conflict in your head and that's where your problems are coming from. You say that you do think that God withholds but at the same time you hope and believe. You can't have that kind of duality going on your head and expect the results you want.

[EarthGirl]

First of all, I was talking to TonyT - the OP. But in glancing over your post, I'd say that my first impression is that you have too much conflict in your head and that's where your problems are coming from. You say that you do think that God withholds but at the same time you hope and believe. You can't have that kind of duality going on your head and expect the results you want.

 

Duality is exactly what life is made of, wether we like it or not ..all the great thinkers have all come to this conclusion. Not claiming that I am one of them, but I mean I think I just see the truth now..doesn't mean I can't still hope and try for the results I want and maybe even get them sometimes. It just means that whichever way it goes, it's not all up to me, but it can be assisted by me, and I am definitely not done yet.

 

Of COURSE God withholds...you can't live in the same world as all of us and honestly believe he doesn't. I think maybe we are talking about a different kind of hope and belief.

[Angel1111]

Duality is exactly what life is made of, wether we like it or not ..all the great thinkers have all come to this conclusion. Not claiming that I am one of them, but I mean I think I just see the truth now..doesn't mean I can't still hope and try for the results I want and maybe even get them sometimes. It just means that whichever way it goes, it's not all up to me, but it can be assisted by me, and I am definitely not done yet.

 

Of COURSE God withholds...you can't live in the same world as all of us and honestly believe he doesn't. I think maybe we are talking about a different kind of hope and belief.

 

This is your Catholic upbringing talking. So, when Jesus healed the blind and sick, that was just a fluke in that day and we can't expect the same now, is that correct? Duality or not - when it comes to accomplishing what you want, all the great thinkers will agree that if you have self-doubt and thoughts that hold you back, you won't accomplish what you want to accomplish, and you won't have what you want to have. The same 'law' applies to belief and that's why most people's lives are the exact opposite of what they want. Everyone underestimates the creative power of their own subconscious mind. You can call it being a realist or whatever, I'm just saying that as long as you believe in an unjust God, you'll always have 'unjust' in your life.

[NoIDidn't]

This duality that you are talking about is spoken of in James 1:8 - A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways. Life isn't dual. We can be, though.

 

But to the rest of the thread, I just don't get the atheist responses. They claim to follow science and adhere to its findings, but contradict themselves when it comes to everything religion related.

 

The research on prayer agrees with Tony T's assessment. It might not be that their prayers are answered, just that they've changed their perception of the problems and how they responded to them.

 

I am not going to post all the links that I found googling the words prayer research (no quotes). Almost all of the studies had positive findings. Prayer groups lost the most weight, than the groups that didn't pray. Surgical patients healed faster than those that weren't prayed for. And this even worked when the patients and those praying didn't even know each other, and the patients didn't know they were being prayed for!

 

I agree with Tony T. Prayers are ALWAYS answered. Just because one doesn't get the outcome that they want, doesn't mean it wasn't answer. Miracles are all around us, all the time. Just because some refuse to acknowledge or look for the miracles, doesn't mean that they aren't happening.

[northstar1]

But to the rest of the thread, I just don't get the atheist responses. They claim to follow science and adhere to its findings, but contradict themselves when it comes to everything religion related.

 

 

Please elaborate.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with Tony T. Prayers are ALWAYS answered. Just because one doesn't get the outcome that they want, doesn't mean it wasn't answer. Miracles are all around us, all the time. Just because some refuse to acknowledge or look for the miracles, doesn't mean that they aren't happening

 

So absolute silence is an answer then? If someone prays and nothing happens, then the answer was no?

[NoIDidn't]

Please elaborate.

 

 

I already did. Re-read the post. You obviously missed all the rest. Unless you are going to claim that Psychology is not a science.

[northstar1]

I already did. Re-read the post. You obviously missed all the rest. Unless you are going to claim that Psychology is not a science.

 

I read it, but fail to see any contradictions that you have highlighted, other than referencing googling prayer research.

 

As for psychology not being a science, 59,100,000 hits on google seem to make that argument.

[Rooster_DAR]

But to the rest of the thread, I just don't get the atheist responses. They claim to follow science and adhere to its findings, but contradict themselves when it comes to everything religion related.

 

Excuse me, but what contradictions are we referring to here?

 

I think their may be some plausibility with the positive effect of prayer to the one doing the praying. As for praying for someone else, that would be interesting. You have to be careful what you associate the factors with, positive thinking in itself is powerful and does not need association with divine intervention.

[NoIDidn't]

I read it, but fail to see any contradictions that you have highlighted, other than referencing googling prayer research.

 

As for psychology not being a science, 59,100,000 hits on google seem to make that argument.

 

Figures, you would try that argument.

[NoIDidn't]

Excuse me, but what contradictions are we referring to here?

 

I am not talking about specific contradictions in the thread. Just that the disagreement with the premise of the post is, in itself a contradiction of the adherence to a belief in science and scientific outcomes.

 

 

 

Is it that only the sciences that deal with evolution (biology, physics, archeology) are the only sciences recognized by atheists?

 

I think their may be some plausibility with the positive effect of prayer to the one doing the praying. As for praying for someone else, that would be interesting. You have to be careful what you associate the factors with, positive thinking in itself is powerful and does not need association with divine intervention.

 

Check out the research before assuming anything. A lot of it was carried out by presumably non-religious people. And some of the praying was just done to "the Universe" instead of to a god.

 

This is what I mean by atheists contradicting themselves. It always has to be something else. It can't be what even the researchers have borne out with valid scientific research.

[Enema]

Here's some research:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

 

It's only a report on the biggest study, the most scientifically rigorous and was designed to overcome the flaws in all previous studies. I hope that's sufficient.

[EarthGirl]

This is your Catholic upbringing talking. So, when Jesus healed the blind and sick, that was just a fluke in that day and we can't expect the same now, is that correct? Duality or not - when it comes to accomplishing what you want, all the great thinkers will agree that if you have self-doubt and thoughts that hold you back, you won't accomplish what you want to accomplish, and you won't have what you want to have. The same 'law' applies to belief and that's why most people's lives are the exact opposite of what they want. Everyone underestimates the creative power of their own subconscious mind. You can call it being a realist or whatever, I'm just saying that as long as you believe in an unjust God, you'll always have 'unjust' in your life.

 

I am not a follower of Jesus, I already said I want to be a Jew...so I don't know why you would bring that up as a way to convince me. I have no reason to believe (and you have no proof to convince me) those miracles performed by Jesus ever really happened in the first place. So yeah I am not claiming anything has changed. I personally am of the belief he did probably exist and walk this earth and was probably a great guy and very special in some ways but that's about it. This is all opinion you've stated,nothing more. You are free to your opinions and I am free to mine.

 

And I did not say that God is unjust..only that maybe he brings difficulties into our lives for reasons that I am not yet able to understand at this point in my journey...or maybe only he himself is ever able to understand. I am not some doom and gloom glass half empty person that has somehow brought about or conjured up my own misery and misfortune..that is not what it's about.

Edited November 24, 2009 by EarthGirl

[Moose]

all I am saying is just don't assume that I have some "lesson" to learn more than somebody, anybody else does...again...this is condescending and patronizing..we all have things to learn..there's a whole lot to learn and nobody knows all.

I didn't say you did. We are all in process. I agree with your statement whole heartedly!

So what purpose does it serve to ask for anything from Him?

 

I get the idea of prayer as a way of meditating, communing with God, but from everything I'm seeing here, and on the topic of asking and answering, it seems there is general agreement that He will do what He will, in His time. I'm wondering what effect asking is expected to have?

Sripture points this out, "You have not, because you asked not". It all comes down to a personal relationship with our Maker.

I have asked many many MANY times for things I wanted and needed (and usually they weren't for "frivolous" things but just my big dreams, like my dream career and love of course, children of my own, just to travel a little bit to places I've always wanted to go etc. but definitely not for millions or billions of dollars or world fame or anything) AND taken steps of my own to take charge of my own life and try to work on and try to encourage those things into my life ...but it just has not worked.

"Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and these things shall be added unto you"

[EarthGirl]

This duality that you are talking about is spoken of in James 1:8 - A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways. Life isn't dual. We can be, though.

 

But to the rest of the thread, I just don't get the atheist responses. They claim to follow science and adhere to its findings, but contradict themselves when it comes to everything religion related.

 

The research on prayer agrees with Tony T's assessment. It might not be that their prayers are answered, just that they've changed their perception of the problems and how they responded to them.

 

I am not going to post all the links that I found googling the words prayer research (no quotes). Almost all of the studies had positive findings. Prayer groups lost the most weight, than the groups that didn't pray. Surgical patients healed faster than those that weren't prayed for. And this even worked when the patients and those praying didn't even know each other, and the patients didn't know they were being prayed for!

 

I agree with Tony T. Prayers are ALWAYS answered. Just because one doesn't get the outcome that they want, doesn't mean it wasn't answer. Miracles are all around us, all the time. Just because some refuse to acknowledge or look for the miracles, doesn't mean that they aren't happening.

 

of course life is dual...that is exactly...well that is kind of what makes the world go round. I am sure there are lots of resources and quotes back from centuries ago till now that people could back me up with this is they chose...I myself am not a much book learned person but I know they are out there..I'd do my own research if I cared enough to not be made to look like a fool in front of you people and I wanted to fight back..but the fact is I just don't care that much what you think of me.

 

And I'd argue that the prayer studies have more to do with a "placebo effect" (I've already stated that for myself personally i think prayer is very helpful to my state of mind and peace of mind) OR that God himself even chooses to answer certain prayers when a particular "study" is happening as a way to get people to think maybe they've found the answer and debate about these things such as we are indeed doing here. But don't forget ..there is no "control" in a "study" such as this..if we are the laboratory ..it's God who is the scientist ...and there can be no scientific proof of the power of prayer..Because he is the only one that has ALL the data.

[Rooster_DAR]

Here's some research:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

 

It's only a report on the biggest study, the most scientifically rigorous and was designed to overcome the flaws in all previous studies. I hope that's sufficient.

 

This appears to debunk the theory that prayers help at all. Just as I would have guessed.

 

Cheers!

[NoIDidn't]

Here's some research:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

 

It's only a report on the biggest study, the most scientifically rigorous and was designed to overcome the flaws in all previous studies. I hope that's sufficient.

 

Thanks for the link. I read the article and it was very interesting. I wonder what the flaws in the previous studies were that they say this study managed to fix?

 

Another thing is that this study was on Intercessory Prayer and not the patient praying for themselves. I wonder of the differences between praying for one's self vs. knowing that others are doing it? I would feel loved and cared for if people cared enough to pray for me. The study authors seem to have found that those who knew they were being prayed for actually experienced more problems - and it was noted as a negative which it may not actually be in some instances.

 

Thanks again for the link. This is very interesting and I will continue to read more of the findings of this study beyond this article.

 

This appears to debunk the theory that prayers help at all. Just as I would have guessed.

 

Cheers!

 

Ummm...no. Even the scientists involved didn't make the leap you just made about it "debunking" anything.

 

Here is what one study author actually said:

 

In a hurriedly convened news conference, the study's authors, led by Dr. Herbert Benson, a cardiologist and director of the Mind/Body Medical Institute near Boston, said that the findings were not the last word on the effects of so-called intercessory prayer. But the results, they said, raised questions about how and whether patients should be told that prayers were being offered for them.

 

I will certainly concede that the study did not lend scientific credence to prayer working for those in this study - especially for those that were expectant or hopeful that it would give positive outcomes - but the more interesting point was that those that knew they were being prayed for seemed to have the worst results.

 

There are several atheists on these boards that have told stories of how seemingly-unanswered or unfavorably answered prayers basically helped them turn their backs on religion - so this was actually noteworthy to me.

 

And the study only covered Intercessory Prayer - when others pray for you. Not when you pray for yourself.

 

However, +1 for the Anti-Prayer Team. This study does hinder my argument about science supporting prayer, but not on my enthusiasm for prayer.

[NoIDidn't]

of course life is dual...that is exactly...well that is kind of what makes the world go round. I am sure there are lots of resources and quotes back from centuries ago till now that people could back me up with this is they chose...I myself am not a much book learned person but I know they are out there..I'd do my own research if I cared enough to not be made to look like a fool in front of you people and I wanted to fight back..but the fact is I just don't care that much what you think of me.

 

And I'd argue that the prayer studies have more to do with a "placebo effect" (I've already stated that for myself personally i think prayer is very helpful to my state of mind and peace of mind) OR that God himself even chooses to answer certain prayers when a particular "study" is happening as a way to get people to think maybe they've found the answer and debate about these things such as we are indeed doing here. But don't forget ..there is no "control" in a "study" such as this..if we are the laboratory ..it's God who is the scientist ...and there can be no scientific proof of the power of prayer..Because he is the only one that has ALL the data.

 

No need to defend yourself here, EarthGirl. I wasn't attacking you. Just providing a quote about the duality and its actual effects. No one is trying to get you to make a fool of yourself.

 

I happen to agree with you that there really is no "control" in a study that involves the Supernatural. Several scientists do too, it seems. They seem to think it makes for "bad religion, and bad science". As if we could force God to perform in a test environment. However, studies can be done by asking people about their experiences after praying or being prayed for. Doesn't mean we are demanding that God act, but making a record of what has happened when we asked Him to act.

 

You have mentioned wanting to convert to Judaism. I doubt the Talmud, and other Jewish texts, would waste so much time on a person that never existed. And from what I know about conversion to (religious) Judaism - I looked into it myself once - you won't be allowed to do it without studying these texts anyway.

[dunstable]

I can't believe this thread has gone to 7 pages. We all (almost all) know prayers are not always answered -- unless by answered you mean that whatever happened must have been the result of the prayer even if not directly requested. In the latter case, all prayers are always answered by definition and the discussion is a waste of time for those who subscribe to that definition.

[TheLoneSock]

Here's some research:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

 

It's only a report on the biggest study, the most scientifically rigorous and was designed to overcome the flaws in all previous studies. I hope that's sufficient.

 

Lol well gosh, if the NY Times reported it, it must be a perfect argument.