MM filed, served papers and moved out

[RedDevil66]

The thing is if you had been born and raised in my country, you might think like me.

 

doubt it! I am a wonderful great spirit that has found my soul

 

My best friend is Arabic born in Iraq, born and raised to HATE americans and jews. Guess what, she hates neither. Why? Cause she was smart enough to listen to her heart and not to hate.

 

Sae excuse for your sad actions

[jennie-jennie]

Frozen, save your energy, only once the fallen break do they listen to reason.

For now all you sound like to them is Charlie Brown's parents "waa waa waaa waaaa"

 

They don't get it. They are lost souls in a sea of their own pain!

 

Who says one culture has monopoly on the truth?

[RedDevil66]

Who says one culture has monopoly on the truth?

 

I give up!

[jennie-jennie]

If you don't mind my asking ( and if it's not too identifying) what country is that?

 

I believe you only mean well, Frozen, I can hear that on your tone. We are just crashing because we have different moral codes.

 

I am sorry, but revealing the country I am from would be too identifying.

[norajane]

I am having the best relationship I ever had with the man of my heart. I am enjoying every day of it. Happy Other Woman - have you heard that term?

 

I have. I just don't believe that you are one of them after 4 years of a long distance affair with a man who has still made no move to leave his wife or even tell her that you exist.

 

In your own words, you give examples of exactly how troubling this affair is for you and how you are absolutely not enjoying every day of it:

 

Having a relationship with a MM is having a relationship with someone who is not fully committed to you

 

Being an EMR, when we could have contact has always been steered by him. Now it seems to me that this is the ultimate steering, now that I am not allowed to contact him at all. He knows, as always, what is going on in his mind and I am, as always, left to wonder.

 

Oh, DI, I don't know how I will ever be able to do this. We parted on Wednesday. Thursday night after only a day of NC I texted and called him saying I could not go through with it, is there no alternative? He was very determined that he needed to work on his marriage, determined in a way that made him seem cold to me. I felt humiliated. At least this humiliation has kept me from contacting him since. The urge is there though, strong.

 

I am not going to go begging, please let me be your other woman. Yeah, right.

 

So I suffer. I have kids to take care of, they are already hurting, I left the dinner table being upset, I spent all day in bed.

 

Is it Christmas soon? My sentence will be over then. Or turned into life.

 

 

MM settles with the marriage, OW settles with the affair. We should all learn not to settle.

 

I see clearer now with NC what I want. But how to live without it? I am being torn up inside.

 

It IS scary that we might just be back into the EMR and limbo.

 

His anxiety concerns leaving the life he knows in which he lives full time with his children.

 

In my opinion the secrecy of the affair is a big turn-off. Any sign of my MM wanting to hide me is repulsive in my opinion. That is the part of our relationship that I do not like.

 

I'm sorry, I fail to see fulfillment and happiness here for you. I see anxiety, and the need to go NC so he can work on his marriage, and you back in limbo and not knowing what to do now after 4 years of roller coaster.

 

So, no, I don't believe you are a happy OW.

[RedDevil66]

oh, don't do that1 I have to admit I ws enjoying the debate between you and JennieJennie (lol)

 

JennieJennie,

I have been "in love' every bit as deeply and intensely as you say you are. You have no monopoly on "true love". I know it hurts like Hell when it's over, even more so when it's end was due to circumstances and not 'fading away".

 

but we all make choices in our lives- you chose to put yourself in a situation with this married man and start a relationship with him. You chose to ignore what effect your actions would have on someone else. you can candy coat it anyway you want, but that's still what it is. you made choices- don't try and feed me the line of 'I have no control over things"... that's bull! . and about the whole "cultural' justification...there are many things that are acceptable in one culture that are not acceptable in another. In some cultures, people enter into marraige at age 14 or 15- just because it's acceptable in tat culture, that doesn't make it acceptable in this culture.

 

( by the way, I'm not aware- and just because I am not aware of it that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist- of any culture that condone adultery- most cultures disapprove of it most strongly)

 

you have a lot more patience than I, well said!

[jennie-jennie]

I have. I just don't believe that you are one of them after 4 years of a long distance affair with a man who has still made no move to leave his wife or even tell her that you exist.

 

In your own words, you give examples of exactly how troubling this affair is for you and how you are absolutely not enjoying every day of it:

 

I'm sorry, I fail to see fulfillment and happiness here for you. I see anxiety, and the need to go NC so he can work on his marriage, and you back in limbo and not knowing what to do now after 4 years of roller coaster.

 

So, no, I don't believe you are a happy OW.

 

Most of those posts were from our NC period, which I clearly have stated was hell.

 

Okay, it was a bit of an exaggeration that every day is enjoyable. But anyone should be able to figure that out, that is not true in any relationship. But you know what, even when my MM and I argue, I always enjoy being with him. I have told him that many times, and he agrees with me.

 

I have struggled a lot to come to terms with this relationship. In the beginning I believed my MM would quickly make a choice between us, which I eventually had to realize was not the case. I do believe I have finally come to a point where I truthfully can say I am a Happy Other Woman. Time will tell if that is true or not. Of course I will have better and worse days, but all in all I am happy to have a relationship with this wonderful man.

[jennie-jennie]

oh, don't do that1 I have to admit I ws enjoying the debate between you and JennieJennie (lol)

 

JennieJennie,

I have been "in love' every bit as deeply and intensely as you say you are. You have no monopoly on "true love". I know it hurts like Hell when it's over, even more so when it's end was due to circumstances and not 'fading away".

 

but we all make choices in our lives- you chose to put yourself in a situation with this married man and start a relationship with him. You chose to ignore what effect your actions would have on someone else. you can candy coat it anyway you want, but that's still what it is. you made choices- don't try and feed me the line of 'I have no control over things"... that's bull! . and about the whole "cultural' justification...there are many things that are acceptable in one culture that are not acceptable in another. In some cultures, people enter into marraige at age 14 or 15- just because it's acceptable in tat culture, that doesn't make it acceptable in this culture.

 

( by the way, I'm not aware- and just because I am not aware of it that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist- of any culture that condone adultery- most cultures disapprove of it most strongly)

 

He is a man from my past. I fell in love with him when he was single. Unfortunately I was naive enough to believe that he would quickly choose between us. I never imagined he would keep us both. I know better now. I know these kind of men exist who cannot choose. Because of that I would run the other way if I met a MM in the future who attracted me. Because of course it is not ideal to have to share a man.

 

And there is a difference between circumstances forcing you and voluntarily leaving a love relationship.

Edited December 1, 2009 by jennie-jennie

[jennie-jennie]

Well, this has been some major thread jacking! I apologize for contributing to that. We should get our focus back on the OP!

[rlt09]

Jennie, jennie,

 

I am not from your country but you and I are so similar. I too have been involved with a married ex-sweetheart for almost 4 years. Ours is also a long distance relationship. I too am over 50. I too never married but do have a child. I too make my own rules about love; noone tells me how to go about that. The only difference is, I am still with my SO. And I can say very truthfully that I understand and agree with almost everthing you say. I think your beliefs surrounding the feelings of your MM are likely spot-on. Probably, he is not fulfilled in his marriage, probably he is in love with you. I felt exactly the same way in my situation; that love is what I hung on to. That love is what kept me going. And believe me when I tell you, when my MM and I were together long ago, he was crazy for me. I have never been loved more by anyone and I know he has never loved anyone the way he loved me. Not even his wife. I won't tell you how I know that, and it's not because he told me. But I do absolutely know that. And those same feelings were reawakened when we reconnected.

 

Attempts I made at NC were agonizing and never worked for us either.

 

I know you feel great love and great pain in this relationship. It comes through in your postings. And if you're like me, you keep the focus on the love and again, like me, you are extremely tenacious. Never give up. Dreaming of the good times that will surely come one day. Knowing how really great you will be together. Makes the pain worth it.

 

Although I have visited that pain from time to time (it couldn't be avoided), I never really focused on it. The love felt so much better. But the pain is just as much a part of the relationship as is the love. So I have forced myself to take a hard look at it. Why it's always there. What it can lead to. How much of my energy is drained by it. What could make it go away. The answers are there.

 

I haven't by any means completed this journey with him, but I have made some changes. I'm still struggling, but I can tell you I'm feeling better and stronger day by day because of the changes I've made. A few months ago, I would never have thought this was possible.

 

I don't think it's worthwhile for you to try and defend yourself to those whose minds are closed to thinking of love and marriage in any other way than conventionally. They are just as entitled to their feelings around those issues as we are. We know what feels right to us and we are true to that. There's no right or wrong here. Love is a very personal experience.

 

I wish you well on your journey.

[norajane]

Most of those posts were from our NC period, which I clearly have stated was hell.

 

Okay, it was a bit of an exaggeration that every day is enjoyable. But anyone should be able to figure that out, that is not true in any relationship. But you know what, even when my MM and I argue, I always enjoy being with him. I have told him that many times, and he agrees with me.

 

I have struggled a lot to come to terms with this relationship. In the beginning I believed my MM would quickly make a choice between us, which I eventually had to realize was not the case. I do believe I have finally come to a point where I truthfully can say I am a Happy Other Woman. Time will tell if that is true or not. Of course I will have better and worse days, but all in all I am happy to have a relationship with this wonderful man.

 

I know you feel great love and great pain in this relationship. It comes through in your postings. And if you're like me, you keep the focus on the love and again, like me, you are extremely tenacious. Never give up. Dreaming of the good times that will surely come one day. Knowing how really great you will be together. Makes the pain worth it.

 

Although I have visited that pain from time to time (it couldn't be avoided), I never really focused on it. The love felt so much better. But the pain is just as much a part of the relationship as is the love. So I have forced myself to take a hard look at it. Why it's always there. What it can lead to. How much of my energy is drained by it. What could make it go away. The answers are there.

 

It's abuse perpetrated by the cake-eating MM, emotional abuse. And you agree to it for as long as you stay with him and come to terms with being an OW indefinitely. All that pain is there because of the circumstances of the relationship - the affair - and you force yourself to endure it because you don't believe you have a choice. This is no different than the women who stay with physical abusers - so many of abused wives luv their abusive husbands and feel like they have no choice but to stay.

 

I'd venture to say you would not stay with him if he started cheating on you with someone else. So why stay with him when he started off the relationship having someone else, and continues to remain married for years and years and makes no move to leave, all while you pine for him and he is your everything?! He gets both of you, while you get, what?

 

You have a choice! You don't have to stay trapped in an emotionally abusive relationship!

Edited December 1, 2009 by norajane

[rlt09]

Nora,

 

I never believed I didn't have a choice. I chose to love. I chose to endure the pain. Instard of focusing on the love, I am now focusing on the pain. And that takes me to a different place - a different frame of mind.

 

My MM is not a cake eater. I knew and know him very well. He actually expended a lot of time, money, and emotional energy on this relationship. We both did. There's a huge void in my current relationship and I assume there is one in his. We just had different feelings about changing things. Last time around, he gracefully allowed me to make choices that hurt him. This time, I'm gracefully allowing him to do the same.

[mybrowneyedgirl]

i do have to say that during my A i was a very happy cake eater. i was the OW, had no intentions of being anything more, but i was in love and ecstatic and nothing could change that.

 

so i see where jennie is coming from. our A ended due to circumstance, a very bad d-day, not due to it fading away.

 

i probably would have been happy forever being the OW.

 

so i do understand, for some its not the pursuit of him leaving his wife and marrying the AP. its enjoying a wonderful man and the way he makes you feel and whatever time it is you share together.

[Impudent Oyster]

I am from a different culture and country than you are. All my friends and many of my relatives know of my relationship. None of them are frowning at it. What they think is wrong is that my MM is not leaving his marriage when he obviously loves me.

 

I don't lie and I don't cheat. My MM unfortunately does both. I wish he would not.

 

My MM used to cheat on me as well and have sex with his wife. He has stopped that now. I can agree with you that in that sense the wife is the other woman, since his primary love interest is me.

 

 

Okay, this is what I have a huge problem with.

 

Let's say you ARE the "primary love interest". Let's say that you are even the wife.

 

What self-respecting woman would be happy with her "primary love interest" having an OW?

 

There is a reason that most affairs end on D-day, because no woman will tolerate her husband being with someone else...yet you do. Why is that?

 

Do you have so little self-esteem that you won't demand that he make a choice? He doesn't have to make a choice, you allow him to "have" you both, but his wife won't.

 

You say you never imagined he would "keep us both", well why not? You are LETTING HIM. You're wasting your time on this player, and honestly, I don't blame him for "keeping" both of you, why shouldn't he?

 

What would happen if you told him not to contact you until his divorce was final? What are you afraid of?

 

If you are in fact his "primary love interest", then he will leave his wife to be with you. I think you're afraid that if you give him an ultimatum (ie, FORCE him to choose), that he won't choose you.

[SerenityX2]

Yes, even marriage - relationships, no matter the nature, whether long term, co-habitating, common law, or even marriage, comes with a guarantee, so yes, it is quite rational and logical to think that there is SOME risk.

 

Seems like you're trying to insult me that I must not be rational or logical unless I have your belief about this.

 

Other than death there is nothing/no one that will break my marriage apart. That's our choice and we're aware of what that takes. I have strong reasons why I know this is true. I feel bad for people that don't have that type of loving security in their marriage it's wonderful and without it, it would be hard to open up completely.

 

Some people do actually say what they mean and do what they say. There are people that honor their word and vows.

 

Some r'ships do carry an inherent risk, yes I've known people like that I wouldn't have married someone like that.

 

I'm not here saying that ALL marriages should have no risk otherwise it's a sham, so if you believe in your world that ALL r'ships have a risk...carry on, I'm saying it's not true for me and many others that I know. Just b/c you may not have experienced that yet doesn't mean it's not out there.

 

Do all r'ships have their trials and hard times? Yep....that doesn't equate risk to me.

[norajane]

i do have to say that during my A i was a very happy cake eater. i was the OW, had no intentions of being anything more, but i was in love and ecstatic and nothing could change that.

 

so i see where jennie is coming from. our A ended due to circumstance, a very bad d-day, not due to it fading away.

 

i probably would have been happy forever being the OW.

 

so i do understand, for some its not the pursuit of him leaving his wife and marrying the AP. its enjoying a wonderful man and the way he makes you feel and whatever time it is you share together.

 

But you were/are married, no? You wanted to maintain both relationships - your marriage and your affair. I think that's a different mindset than single OW who want the MM to leave his wife.

[OWoman]

there are many things that are acceptable in one culture that are not acceptable in another. In some cultures, people enter into marraige at age 14 or 15- just because it's acceptable in tat culture, that doesn't make it acceptable in this culture.

 

Culture is not monolithic. Within any culture, there will be people who agree with some things and others who won't. Making sweeping statements about things being "unacceptable" in "a culture" doesn't mean everybody in that culture buys into that. If infidelity was so universally unacceptable, it wouldn't happen. The fact that it does - and does so widely - indicates that it's far more acceptable than people wish to acknowledge.

 

( by the way, I'm not aware- and just because I am not aware of it that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist- of any culture that condone adultery- most cultures disapprove of it most strongly)

 

In my home country, polygamy is legal, and is practiced fairly widely in certain areas among certain groups. Despite that, infidelity is still extremely common - partly because polygamy is expensive, and partly because many of these "adulterous" Rs are shorter-term things that may or may not become LTRs or Ms (polygamous or monogamous). It's widely practiced, and accepted as a fact of life - while the BW or BGF may disapprove (and many do) they accept it. It's part of the deal. Does that equate with "the culture" disapproving strongly? Certainly some people (the BWs, and certain conservative christian types within those communities) may disapprove, because of their own interests in the situation, but equally others (the WSs, the GFs /OWs, the more traditionalist elders) may wholeheartedly approve, because of their particular interests.

 

Morality is highly relative.

 

Some posters believe that morals come directly from the mouth of whatever god they personally pray to, and get really upset when others don't buy into the mythology of their choice. Others are religious, but accept that not everyone shares their view, and so are less parochial in their perspectives.

 

Some posters believe everyone should believe what they believe - whether the basis for this is religious or not - and that everyone who doesn't, is just plain wrong (rather like some of those dimwits interviewed queuing for Sarah Palin biographies who stated that "compromise is for people who're wrong"... ) - an understandable POV in a three year old, but not really for an adult whose IQ is bigger than their shoe size.

[Impudent Oyster]

 

 

In my home country, polygamy is legal, and is practiced fairly widely in certain areas among certain groups. Despite that, infidelity is still extremely common - partly because polygamy is expensive, and partly because many of these "adulterous" Rs are shorter-term things that may or may not become LTRs or Ms (polygamous or monogamous). It's widely practiced, and accepted as a fact of life - while the BW or BGF may disapprove (and many do) they accept it.

 

Fine then, be unfaithful in your home country where it's accepted.

 

When in Rome...

[BlueeyedJonesy]

I don't ever post here but I have to say it makes me sick to my stomach to read things on here about his wife and child. I was 7 yrs old when my dad got is OW pregnant. And all I can say is there are 2 sides to every story. He may tell you she is mean and crazy and whatnot but if she was a kind, loving and amazing wife do you really think he would tell you that? no! because he has to justify what he is doing to her. And when are people going to wake up and realize that there is such thing as Karma? I've seen it all my life so trust me..its real. Think about the long term damage you are doing before you become the OW. I think of all the damage I have from my dads infidelities. and the one thing I know is not an illusion..that I would never wish that upon anyone else.

[Impudent Oyster]

I just wanted to add that stoning and female genital mutilation is also acceptable and practiced fairly widely in certain areas among certain groups, that doesn't make it right.

[fooled once]

Culture is not monolithic. Within any culture, there will be people who agree with some things and others who won't. Making sweeping statements about things being "unacceptable" in "a culture" doesn't mean everybody in that culture buys into that. If infidelity was so universally unacceptable, it wouldn't happen. The fact that it does - and does so widely - indicates that it's far more acceptable than people wish to acknowledge.

.

 

I disagree. Murder is unacceptable universally but people still do it. Doesn't make it acceptable.

 

Child abuse is unacceptable universally, but people still do it. Doesn't make it acceptable.

[RedDevil66]

Culture is not monolithic. Within any culture, there will be people who agree with some things and others who won't. Making sweeping statements about things being "unacceptable" in "a culture" doesn't mean everybody in that culture buys into that. If infidelity was so universally unacceptable, it wouldn't happen. The fact that it does - and does so widely - indicates that it's far more acceptable than people wish to acknowledge.

 

 

 

In my home country, polygamy is legal, and is practiced fairly widely in certain areas among certain groups. Despite that, infidelity is still extremely common - partly because polygamy is expensive, and partly because many of these "adulterous" Rs are shorter-term things that may or may not become LTRs or Ms (polygamous or monogamous). It's widely practiced, and accepted as a fact of life - while the BW or BGF may disapprove (and many do) they accept it. It's part of the deal. Does that equate with "the culture" disapproving strongly? Certainly some people (the BWs, and certain conservative christian types within those communities) may disapprove, because of their own interests in the situation, but equally others (the WSs, the GFs /OWs, the more traditionalist elders) may wholeheartedly approve, because of their particular interests.

 

Morality is highly relative.

 

Some posters believe that morals come directly from the mouth of whatever god they personally pray to, and get really upset when others don't buy into the mythology of their choice. Others are religious, but accept that not everyone shares their view, and so are less parochial in their perspectives.

 

Some posters believe everyone should believe what they believe - whether the basis for this is religious or not - and that everyone who doesn't, is just plain wrong (rather like some of those dimwits interviewed queuing for Sarah Palin biographies who stated that "compromise is for people who're wrong"... ) - an understandable POV in a three year old, but not really for an adult whose IQ is bigger than their shoe size.

 

ugh @ the cheaters always defending the sickness of cheating.

 

I would love to see these sames words expressed when your husband cheats on you.

[RedDevil66]

I just wanted to add that stoning and female genital mutilation is also acceptable and practiced fairly widely in certain areas among certain groups, that doesn't make it right.

 

But those that stone of mutilate will defend their actions. Why would they not? No one wants to be labeled a low life, so they will justify their actions in any way they can.

[complicatedlife]

Seems like you're trying to insult me that I must not be rational or logical unless I have your belief about this.

 

Other than death there is nothing/no one that will break my marriage apart. That's our choice and we're aware of what that takes. I have strong reasons why I know this is true. I feel bad for people that don't have that type of loving security in their marriage it's wonderful and without it, it would be hard to open up completely.

 

Some people do actually say what they mean and do what they say. There are people that honor their word and vows.

 

Some r'ships do carry an inherent risk, yes I've known people like that I wouldn't have married someone like that.

 

I'm not here saying that ALL marriages should have no risk otherwise it's a sham, so if you believe in your world that ALL r'ships have a risk...carry on, I'm saying it's not true for me and many others that I know. Just b/c you may not have experienced that yet doesn't mean it's not out there.

 

Do all r'ships have their trials and hard times? Yep....that doesn't equate risk to me.

If I was trying to insult you, I would - it wouldn't "seem" like I was; I am a VERY blunt and straight forward person, however, it's not my cup of tea to go around insulting people and I will quickly apologize if that is the case; that is not the case here. Additionally, I can debate on a topic that I am not in agreement with without being insulting to the other party.

 

I was simply stating a fact that is shared by psychologists, therapists, ministers, priests, and I would even say more than 50% of the general population - all relationships carry a risk. You cannot put 100% complete faith in someone else's emotions - you can do that with your own, and even your own feelings can change; "your" here means generally, not YOU. The only person I personally put 100% in is not a person - it's God; humans are not perfect - we try to be that way when we love someone, yes, but we are NOT perfect. You don't have to believe any of this - everyone has the right to choose their own convictions and beliefs.

 

It's great that you think that no one or nothing can break up your marriage - every person in a marriage should feel that way. But just because people choose to believe that a relationship/marriage comes with a possible emotional risk, that does not mean that the people in that same relationship or marriage are not in a loving , secure one, and frankly, I think THAT statement could come across as insulting to them.

 

Do I think it's illogical and irrational to 100% believe that someone will never leave me? No. I think it's optimism to the tenth power; there's always a very small percentage, even in a trusting relationship where someone's feelings may change, they have a different direction in life they want to go in that is in conflict with the relationship, etc. Umm...trials and hard times are NOT a risk - not sure where you came up with me thinking that those two things are risks.

 

No couple enters a marriage expecting it to end - they go into it TRUSTING that the other person will love and be with them forever and then they were secure in that trust. Obviously, that doesn't always happen- people get divorced quite often; did they take a RISK? To me, sure they did.

 

I won't comment on the jab you tried to take at me with "just b/c you may not have experienced that yet doesn't mean it's not out there." Next time, you may want to ask someone instead of assuming; I have felt that way when I was married, but even at 21 - the age I got married, I STILL knew that there was a small percentage of an emotional risk.

[torranceshipman]

15yrs old is a child - you need to really prioritize the needs of your MM's daughter now, and really tell your MM that her needs take priority, that he needs to tell her how much he loves her, is a constant presence in her life, and does whatever he can do to be there for her, and be a positive thing in her life. Unfortunately he has been relegated to weak, cheating, abandoning man in her eyes now, which is a heck of a way for him to fall from his regular place of 'strong, dependable dad that is always there, who I can rely on'.

 

Lord only knows how this might manifest itself - she might be ok, aside from the real hurt and pain she'll feel - but she might end up being promiscuous, experimenting with drugs, alcohol, etc, her grades might really suffer....I'm not flaming you but take 100% responsibility for the damage you've both done by deciding to tell the world about your A and co-habit after 5mins, and think of the hurt you've caused the daughter, and make sure you look out for her and her needs as far as you possibly can.