The Greater Good - Bitter Post

[karnak]

 

and I've never robbed or tricked anyone.

 

 

Ok, if lying is a "trick", then I've tricked people.

[floridapad]

SBL - I appreciate you taking the time to write your thoughts and feelings and beleive it or not I get where you are coming from. My wife didn't want to go through MC but rather stick with IC. Unfortunately she had the OM going on the side so it was very difficult for her to "want" to try. Your situation may be different, but perhaps you may have a grass is greener mentality, which is understandable in all marriages. Life long Monogamy can be tough.

 

Now having said that, people do resurface their feelings but they do have to want to make the choice to go down that path. I have read somewhere from an MC that it is unfortunate some WAS's leave and completely shut themselves off emotionally regarding reconciliation because some H's will do alot of self reflection and dig deep inside themselves to grow in away that is far more loving, considerate, nurturing to the W or future W's. I don't know if your H is one of those (don't underestimate him), but sometimes it takes an epiphany for someone to change/grow. This epiphany happened to me and many other men posting and it is a life changer. Now let me ask you if your H made ALL the changes and you KNEW he would change and be more loving caring etc etc. would you be able to forgive him for his past faults knowing that he is NOW much more of the man you were hoping he would be.

 

What are your emotional needs. Before you check to see if the grass is greener you may want to think about that. What love busters does your husband do that turns you off. What would YOU need to do down the road if you see future relationships ending in the same way yours is now (Please don't say you will be wiser in your choice because you are older and more mature. Under that thinking, divorce with second marriages would be very very low, as apposed to them actually being hire than the primary marriage.). Look up marriage builders and check out the emotional needs and love buster sections. You will learn ALOT about yourself and it may help you communicate your needs to your H or a future H. Your H or future H would also need to do the same so they can communicate them to you.

[soheartbroken]

Actually, your profile states 12, in all...

 

 

You've been feeling the same way since July.... has nothing changed, at all?

 

 

 

No. That's why they've walked away. To try to find happiness.

 

 

yes. And no. Sometimes. It depends on how really in love they were, or whether it was actually a needy dependency.... Then, they miss the presence of the loved one, but believe it to be love.... but if you look at how the WAS has behaved, in a lot of cases - well, you just don't do that to people you love, do you?

 

Actually, I have found through experience that it depends on the maturity of botht the adults and the kids.....

 

 

But that's the point.

They don't believe it IS for the greater good.

And what proof could you provide that it would be?

It's hypothetical and unanswerable.

 

If a person decides to remain in a marriage, even though every fibre of their being is telling them to end it and walk away, how is that staying for the greater good? That merely engenders personal sacrifice and resentment, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the greater good.

Far from it.

 

Sometimes, although we are quick to condemn the other partner for breaking up and walking away, there is a much larger picture of the whole scenario we are not privy to. So whilst we can only appraise situations at face value, we can only give opinions based on the text we see before us.

If the leaving partner were to post their side, we would have a broader picture, a more balanced view, and two opposable distinct commentaries upon which to base our responses.

 

It's happened here.

A husband came in and told us all manner of distinctly distasteful things about his wife. Boy, did we ever lash into her and give her what for?!

 

Guess what?

She joined as a member, and gave her version.

What a mess.

Turns out he was just as bad.....

and the thread descended into an online spat-slanging match, with each person trying to out-do the other.....

 

There are always two sides to everything.

And its understandable that people are biased, and give their version of events. That doesn't make them wrong. But it makes them jaded.

of course, the dumper is going to come out in a poor light. The dumped is offended, hurt, wounded, injured, and feels the loss.

 

But at one point, acceptance has to kick in.

It's over.

Move on, and make the best of what you have before you, now......

 

 

This has nothing to do with culture.

It happens everywhere where people have the freedom to choose, and the liberty to decide.

And the human animal is a selfish, self-serving creature, by-and-large. The sentiment "What's in it for me?" is strong, and the instinct to survive and be ahead is upfront.

Couple that with the intellect and reasoning we have developped, as the human being, and (abused and manifested unskilfully) it wreaks havoc.

 

 

Okay Tara. I have to defend myself here.

 

As for the number of threads, I've only every started one thread in the separation and divorce forum, so that's what I was trying to say. Everything else is in the coping forum.

 

Second, I prefaced my post by saying that I was bitter, so I was acknowledging that there was going to be bias.

 

Third, when I said one person was happy, I meant one person was happy after the breakup (the WAS).

 

As for it being a cultural thing? Absolutely! In a different time and age people did not divorce at the rate we do now. In different countries they do not divorce at the rate we do in North America. How can this not be cultural? We are an individualistic society, unlike some (Chinese for example, though that's probably changing).

 

The media is saturated with images of perfect happiness, and so I think some people get it into their heads that they should always be happy and living this fantasy. This is a poor explanation but I gotta run for now...

 

But lastly, I also noted that my situation is not the same as most on the S&D forum. No kids involved here, no mid-life crisis or anything.

 

I just got sad one day seeing all these WAS's, so I started this thread to provoke discussion. I know it's not as simple the math.

 

And it has provoked discussion! Wonderful!

[karnak]

As for it being a cultural thing? Absolutely! In a different time and age people did not divorce at the rate we do now. In different countries they do not divorce at the rate we do in North America. How can this not be cultural? We are an individualistic society, unlike some (Chinese for example, though that's probably changing).

 

 

In many countries (I'm thinking of Europe, for instance) divorce was only legalised in the 20th century. Back in Antiquity, the roman law accepted divorce. And romans did divorce a lot.

 

In the 7th century AD the christian church declared that divorce was illegal. Up until the 19th and 20th century.

 

Well, one thing's for sure. Back in the middle ages you'd only marry if you really wanted to stay married for life.

 

Many people today marry already thinking that, if things go wrong, they'll always have an "escape route" (divorce). I had a talk with a friend of mine, shortly before his marriage, who said almost the same thing.

Well... I wouldn't bet a lot of dough on his marriage lasting a lifetime, I guess.

[soheartbroken]

 

You've been feeling the same way since July.... has nothing changed, at all?

 

 

Also. I hope you're not on here to judge how long recovery takes for me and others.

[soheartbroken]

But when you want your STBXW to stay...

 

It's all about YOU.

 

Not taking sides here.

 

Just saying, both parties are "selfish." There can be no other way.

 

Right, but with kids involved...then even if both adults are being selfish, what is best for the kids?

[soheartbroken]

FP,

 

 

 

I'm gonna be honest... I really believe in intuition. And here is the dilemma. My intuition tells me... no matter how much we "work" on it... no matter how much counseling we go to... even if he makes changes such as stopping drinking completely, etc.... my intuition tells me that my feelings won't change. That I will *never* have the feelings for him that I want to have for a man. And no, I'm not talking "flowery in-love" 1st stage love feelings either.

 

I partly base this intuition on knowing him for 17 years. And here is the other thing. I really DON'T want to work on it. I have gone to counseling, etc. more out of a feeling of obligation, than a desire to work on it. I WANT to WANT to work on it... but I don't. I WISH I could ... but I can't muster up feelings out of nowhere. I wish I could explain this so you could understand it from my point of view. It's not out of desire to hurt at ALL.

 

 

I do understand you. I've broken up with someone too.

 

And it hurts to know that that's how my ex felt. I didn't even push counseling because I knew she was too far gone. I knew she was at the point that you just described.

 

Sadly, I still hold onto hope for the future. DIE HOPE, DIE!

[TaraMaiden]

Okay Tara. I have to defend myself here.

 

As for the number of threads, I've only every started one thread in the separation and divorce forum, so that's what I was trying to say. Everything else is in the coping forum.

yes, I see what you mean now....I wasn't trying to catch you out, I just wondered what it actually meant.... thanks and apologies if I came over as accusatory. That wasn't my intention.

 

Second, I prefaced my post by saying that I was bitter, so I was acknowledging that there was going to be bias.

And that's the vicious circle you create for yourself....you're biased because you're bitter, and you remain bitter via the bias....one fuels the other.... do you think it's about time you stepped off the merry-go-round?

 

Third, when I said one person was happy, I meant one person was happy after the breakup (the WAS).

And I again emphasise. They're hoping for greener grass. To begin with, it might look as if they've found it.... but I can't honestly say that it's always been a fixed given..... a lot of WASes declare that in fact, things were not as they'd hoped.....

 

As for it being a cultural thing? Absolutely! In a different time and age people did not divorce at the rate we do now.

That's partly because of changes in laws governing equality, for one thing.

Matters at one point were heavily in favour of the male society.

Simply because the divorce rate wasn't as high, it doesn't mean marriages were happier. I am pretty confident that if things had been different, people would have divorced almost in as many numbers as they do now.

 

In different countries they do not divorce at the rate we do in North America. How can this not be cultural? We are an individualistic society, unlike some (Chinese for example, though that's probably changing).

Again, look at the laws governing these countries. The law only moved closer to giving a woman equal rights against her husband, in 2005 in France. A so-called civilised western country, that had hitherto shown enormous bias towards the woman. And let's not go to the Middle East...quite literally....!

 

The media is saturated with images of perfect happiness, and so I think some people get it into their heads that they should always be happy and living this fantasy. This is a poor explanation but I gotta run for now...

Can't argue there.

Hollywood itself is hugely guilty of perpetuating this saccharine imagery of relationships and love.....

 

But lastly, I also noted that my situation is not the same as most on the S&D forum. No kids involved here, no mid-life crisis or anything.

Well thank your lucky stars....that means, surely, that it should be a matter of less time for you to get back to normal.....no?

 

I just got sad one day seeing all these WAS's, so I started this thread to provoke discussion. I know it's not as simple the math.

 

And it has provoked discussion! Wonderful!

(That's the first cheerful thing I've heard you say!

[soheartbroken]

What can I say Tara! I'm not very cheerful these days.

[FeelingLonely98]

FP,

 

I understand a bit where you are coming from, yes. For the purposes of the "debate" I'd like to leave the kids out of it (of course they are a big part of the equation, not discounting them at all.... just for purposes of the discussion, the point I'd like to make).

 

I think a lot of what you are talking about is *how* the WAW handled the situation. And I totally agree, running away and being blindsided is awful. Just awful. It shows a complete lack of respect for the partner who one has spent many many years with, which, in a way, shows a lack for oneself. Because in a way we are all mirrors for each other. I chose my partner as a reflection as myself. Who I was at the time. Showing disrespect for my partner shows disrespect for *me* too.

 

That all being said... I think it makes sense that if one *truly* wants out of a relationship, then there should be no relationship. Certainly when dating, if you were dating a very nice lady but realized you didn't want anything more, and needed to break it off for whatever reason.... the fact that she would be terribly terribly hurt, wouldn't make you obligated to keep dating her... would it?

 

Of course a marriage is NOT the same as dating, don't want to get stuck on that, but it's the principle I'm talking about. It doesn't make sense to stay with a partner, if you *really* don't want to be with them... just because they'd be very very hurt if you left. I've brought this up before, and I'll bring it up again... why would anyone want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with them? It's not fair to either person in the relationship.

 

Now, a lot of left-behind spouses are blindsided when their spouse walks away. I haven't walked away yet... I am STILL contemplating it... and my husband won't be completely blindsided if it does happen, because we've had at least 2-3 conversations so far where he knows of my unhappiness and possible intentions.

 

I'm gonna be honest... I really believe in intuition. And here is the dilemma. My intuition tells me... no matter how much we "work" on it... no matter how much counseling we go to... even if he makes changes such as stopping drinking completely, etc.... my intuition tells me that my feelings won't change. That I will *never* have the feelings for him that I want to have for a man. And no, I'm not talking "flowery in-love" 1st stage love feelings either.

 

I partly base this intuition on knowing him for 17 years. And here is the other thing. I really DON'T want to work on it. I have gone to counseling, etc. more out of a feeling of obligation, than a desire to work on it. I WANT to WANT to work on it... but I don't. I WISH I could ... but I can't muster up feelings out of nowhere. I wish I could explain this so you could understand it from my point of view. It's not out of desire to hurt at ALL.

 

The closest analogy I can think of is, imagine one day you woke up and found yourself married to an acquaintance who you liked, and were friendly with, but had no real deep feelings for. And you were trying to create deep feelings for her cause you knew you "should." But they just weren't there. That is really the closest analogy I can think of. Yeah I know you will say love is not a feeling, it's a choice... but please try and imagine that scenario... because that's EXACTLY how it feels like to me. Add on top of that issues... such as excessive drinking and porn usage, and angry outbursts... and suddenly the balance is tipped... and one is staying in the marriage based only on negatives (fear of hurting others, fear of the unknown, guilt), rather than positives.

 

How do YOU know if you try you can NOT fall in love with the BS again?????? HOW????????????????

[TaraMaiden]

What can I say Tara! I'm not very cheerful these days.

*sucker punch*

 

Well, that's your choice.

 

And trust me on this one, because I know.

It really is.

[TaraMaiden]

How do YOU know if you try you can NOT fall in love with the BS again?????? HOW????????????????

because there is no desire to follow the effort, when the effort seems futile.

You can lead a horse to water.....

[Gunny376]

Interesting thread? Interesting indeed!

[soheartbroken]

*sucker punch*

 

Well, that's your choice.

 

And trust me on this one, because I know.

It really is.

 

Ah! That kind of comment drives me insane!

 

I would fire my therapist if I came to them feeling unhappy and they told me that I chose to feel that way.

 

Is that what you tell people when a loved-one dies?

[karnak]

Ah! That kind of comment drives me insane!

 

I would fire my therapist if I came to them feeling unhappy and they told me that I chose to feel that way.

 

Is that what you tell people when a loved-one dies?

 

Nice reply. We feel according to the value we give the person we lose.

 

If I had a son and he died, I guess I would never overcome the pain. No matter how many children I had. But it may depend, as some people are more "cold" than others.

[El Ben]

Fantastic thread. Great dialogue.

[Lizzie60]

My take.. when the APs are extremely careful not to be caught...

 

it gives:

 

Cheating spouse happy

Affair partner happy

Spouse(s) happy.

Kids happy.

[FeelingLonely98]

Ah! That kind of comment drives me insane!

I would fire my therapist if I came to them feeling unhappy and they told me that I chose to feel that way.

Is that what you tell people when a loved-one dies?

 

The grieving of a death is not unlike the grieving over a dead marriage.

Only the death of a person is something we can't control, it is in God's hands. And the grieving usually has an end stage.

The death of a marriage is something that usually could have been prevented IF there was real communication. And often this grief lasts MUCH longer than grieving over a dead person. Sometimes it lasts the rest of the BS's life.

[FeelingLonely98]

Spouse(s) happy. Kids happy.

 

Very nice Lizzie ...

[sumdude]

The grieving of a death is not unlike the grieving over a dead marriage.

Only the death of a person is something we can't control, it is in God's hands. And the grieving usually has an end stage.

The death of a marriage is something that usually could have been prevented IF there was real communication. And often this grief lasts MUCH longer than grieving over a dead person. Sometimes it lasts the rest of the BS's life.

 

Exactly, except your stbx made the choice and you still have to face them too, at least for a while.

 

But there's a way to think about it that helps. The person who was your spouse, the person you married and lived with? Actually is dead.

 

I know when I came back from an overseas work trip and realized something had drastically changed I felt like I was in a Twilight Zone episode where the plane landed in another universe. "Who the **** are you and what have you done with my wife!?" went through my mind.

 

She didn't exist anymore as the person she was to me.

 

Like the Godfather might say

 

"She's dead to me now."

 

And it doesn't come from a place of anger anymore.. just indifference. Indifference not hate is the opposite of love.

 

FL you're smack dab in the anger stages right now and that's a healthy thing now that you understand grief a bit better.

 

Know Thyself! Grow, learn and keep going. It takes time.. really that's all it takes. Gunny is dead on (as he is most of the time) when he says it takes at least two years to get to a level place. Use that time well, figure out who you are what you want and where you can improve.

 

and by all means, once you feel up to it? Go have some fun! Life's to short to stew and wallow in what was or could have been.

 

You know that truth someone mentioned in your other thread?

Everything in life is temporary.

Edited December 4, 2009 by sumdude

[El Ben]

My take.. when the APs are extremely careful not to be caught...

 

it gives:

 

Cheating spouse happy

Affair partner happy

Spouse(s) happy.

Kids happy.

 

 

Haha. This, unfortunately, is the truth

[TaraMaiden]

Ah! That kind of comment drives me insane!

 

I would fire my therapist if I came to them feeling unhappy and they told me that I chose to feel that way.

 

Is that what you tell people when a loved-one dies?

No, but there are limits to mourning, and of how much you remain stuck in an emotion when the most sensible thing to do would be to move on.

It's been six months now.

How much effort - trly - have you put in to ridding yourself of this invasive and all-pervading sense of grief?

I've been through every single one of your threads, and there's nothing that I can see in any of them that shows you have a sincere desire to climb out of this rut.....

 

Mourning is healthy.

Wallowing isn't.

 

You have to grab this, shake it, and refuse to be party to it any more.

How much longer do you want to stay feeling like this?

Really?

Ask yourself:

How much more of my life am I prepared to sacrifice to permitting someone else dictate how I feel?

[Gunny376]

No, but there are limits to mourning, and of how much you remain stuck in an emotion when the most sensible thing to do would be to move on.

It's been six months now.

How much effort - trly - have you put in to ridding yourself of this invasive and all-pervading sense of grief?

I've been through every single one of your threads, and there's nothing that I can see in any of them that shows you have a sincere desire to climb out of this rut.....

 

Mourning is healthy.

Wallowing isn't.

 

You have to grab this, shake it, and refuse to be party to it any more.

How much longer do you want to stay feeling like this?

Really?

Ask yourself:

How much more of my life am I prepared to sacrifice to permitting someone else dictate how I feel?

 

Agreed! How long must this suffering go on?

 

HOW LONG?

[FeelingLonely98]

because there is no desire to follow the effort, when the effort seems futile. You can lead a horse to water.....

 

Where does the desire come from???

Is it from "the heart"? A more primal need? Noticing (realizing?) someone's goodness?

 

There is no real thing as "love at first sight"? Something initially attracted them - "lust at first sight"? THEN, factors (companionship, laughter, sex, intelligence, wit, compatibility, ETC.) came in to play. Could happen again ...

 

The horse will eventually get thirsty . . . some water sources may appear to taste good, but maybe (just maybe) the original watering hole is best, and by abandoning it without one last drink, that water source will dry up.

[FeelingLonely98]

How much effort - trly - have you put in to ridding yourself of this invasive and all-pervading sense of grief?

 

I am sure soheartbroken is like me in that I have given more effort to ridding myself of this grieving than my W gave to trying to fix the M and see if we could move back to a good (better than ever?) place. Since the beginning of October I have tried, damn have I tried. (I have done so much of the "right" things that you are supposed to do and that I wanted to do.) The fact that my W tried 0% (NOTHING!) - that makes it all the harder to "let go". To this day, if she knocked on my door and said all the right things and had her head and heart in the right place, I truly think we could fix this and be better than ever (and it was pretty good for 16 years minus the laste few weeks before d-day!)

 

Me = lots of effort Tara

STBXW = no effort