The Greater Good - Bitter Post

[tojaz]

I have tried, damn have I tried. (I have done so much of the "right" things that you are supposed to do and that I wanted to do.) The fact that my W tried 0% (NOTHING!) - that makes it all the harder to "let go".

STBXW = no effort

 

Let that make it easier FL. Marriage and relationships are work, every damn day and for everyone involved. If you give all and she gives nothing, is that what you want in a partner??? Don't try to win her back, you've done your duty and it has fallen on deaf ears. For her to ever be worthy of being your wife again, she needs to earn her own way back, if she isn't willing to do that, then your better off.

TOJAZ

[karnak]

To this day, if she knocked on my door and said all the right things and had her head and heart in the right place, I truly think we could fix this and be better than ever (and it was pretty good for 16 years minus the laste few weeks before d-day!)

 

Me = lots of effort Tara

STBXW = no effort

 

Who says she will not come back? Probably she will. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe in a year, maybe in 10 years, if she thinks you really loved her. When we are hungry, we go to places where we know we will be fed.

 

The real question is if you'll want her back in your life when she decides to return.

 

No-one knows how the future will be.

 

You may be dead by the time she decides to return.

If you're 60 or 70 by the time she decides to return, will you accept her?

You may have a new woman, by that time.

 

One thing is certain, I guess, if you really love her, you'll accept her and forgive her when she returns, no matter what she did to you. If you don't... you'll just laugh and slam the door on her face.

 

Trouble is, we always imagine the future will be always like the present day (eternal pain and sorrow, etc...). Yet, the future helds many surprises (both good and bad).

[tojaz]

One thing is certain, I guess, if you really love her, you'll accept her and forgive her when she returns, no matter what she did to you. If you don't... you'll just laugh and slam the door on her face.

 

I don't agree with this. There comes a point where you have to be true to yourself. Mutual respect. To care for someone is not to give them a free pass to disrespect you and that love.

TOJAZ

[karnak]

I don't agree with this. There comes a point where you have to be true to yourself. Mutual respect. To care for someone is not to give them a free pass to disrespect you and that love.

TOJAZ

 

I'm assuming that FL98' wife would then be truly sorry for what she had done to him. I think no-one would be stupid enough to have a relationship with someone who doesn't love or respects us.

[tojaz]

I know, but I also believe that there comes a point where to much damage has been done. I truly love my ex and always will, but the thought of her doing this, putting me through all of this and then coming back looking for acceptance? Infuriating! To have to be a slave to that love, and constantly be looking over my shoulder and still trying to rebuild trust that she broke? That door will eventuall close, even if her place in my heart dosen't.

TOJAZ

[karnak]

That door will eventuall close, even if her place in my heart dosen't.

TOJAZ

 

Maybe you're right, maybe not.

 

Many people did me wrong throughout my life. Some I forgave. Some I did not.

 

Like always, only time will tell.

[tojaz]

Maybe you're right, maybe not.

 

Many people did me wrong throughout my life. Some I forgave. Some I did not.

 

Like always, only time will tell.

 

True enough,

Something she told me many times after D day, "you never know what the future holds for us" All I know is how I feel right now, tomorrow next month or next year could be very different. I don't think its correct to assume that the inability to accept certain things should belittle the love that was present, everyone has their own sensibilities of what they can and cant accept in the name of love.

 

Though this is rarely known until it is put to the test. So I guess time will tell. Good point Karnak.

 

TOJAZ

[soheartbroken]

No, but there are limits to mourning, and of how much you remain stuck in an emotion when the most sensible thing to do would be to move on.

It's been six months now.

How much effort - trly - have you put in to ridding yourself of this invasive and all-pervading sense of grief?

I've been through every single one of your threads, and there's nothing that I can see in any of them that shows you have a sincere desire to climb out of this rut.....

 

Mourning is healthy.

Wallowing isn't.

 

You have to grab this, shake it, and refuse to be party to it any more.

How much longer do you want to stay feeling like this?

Really?

Ask yourself:

How much more of my life am I prepared to sacrifice to permitting someone else dictate how I feel?

 

Wow. This is exactly what I don't come to these forums for. For yet another person who thinks they know the Philosophy Of Life to tell me to "get over it, it's been long enough".

 

Who are you to tell me how long it's healthy for me to grieve for? Who are you to tell me that I'm wallowing and not working? If you've read my threads as you say you have then it should be clear that I'm workin

 

Anyway. I don't want to hear anymore about it. I don't think I've been this pissed off in awhile by a complete stranger. You seriously don't think I want to climb out of this rut? You think I go to therapy and divorce classes and come here and read books and journal just to stay stuck? You think I want to be depressed and hopeless? Bullsh*t. No one wants that. No one can tell me that it's been long enough. It will be long enough when it's been long enough. I will spend however long it takes to get out of this in a healthy way. No shortcuts.

 

This thread was supposed to provoke discussion, that is all. I'm not stuck on bitterness. This was a thread on behalf of other people's stories that I've seen.

[LisaUk]

Absolutely right SHB, everyone mourns in different ways and for different amounts of time. I have seen a huge improvement in you, since you first came here and I know you are trying, not wallowing, like you said you are in thearpy etc. It makes me wonder Tara? Have you ever experienced this? Or were you a leaver?

[You'reasian]

This is only the second thread I've ever started on LS. I'm feeling a bit bitter reading stories of WAW and WAHs.

 

So, when a spouse walks away to "find him/herself", or to be with someone else:

 

1 person is supposedly happy (the WAS)

1 person is usually devastated (the left behind spouse)

1+ kids can be messed up (may not seem like it at the time, but it does impact them in the long run)

 

If I see the math correctly, when children are involved, and the marriage is otherwise decent, more people suffer when a spouse walks away in order to find their own happiness, rather than sticking it out for the greater good.

 

So, I may have offended some people by this post, but really, is our culture too individualistic?

 

I agree with the tone of your post.

[tojaz]

Wow. This is exactly what I don't come to these forums for. For yet another person who thinks they know the Philosophy Of Life to tell me to "get over it, it's been long enough".

 

Who are you to tell me how long it's healthy for me to grieve for? Who are you to tell me that I'm wallowing and not working? If you've read my threads as you say you have then it should be clear that I'm workin

 

Anyway. I don't want to hear anymore about it. I don't think I've been this pissed off in awhile by a complete stranger. You seriously don't think I want to climb out of this rut? You think I go to therapy and divorce classes and come here and read books and journal just to stay stuck? You think I want to be depressed and hopeless? Bullsh*t. No one wants that. No one can tell me that it's been long enough. It will be long enough when it's been long enough. I will spend however long it takes to get out of this in a healthy way. No shortcuts.

 

This thread was supposed to provoke discussion, that is all. I'm not stuck on bitterness. This was a thread on behalf of other people's stories that I've seen.

 

SHB, going through this is like standing at the bank of a raging river trying to cross but getting washed back to shore. A seemingly simple task yet also seemingly impossible. To the casual observer seems simple enough and to someone who has already crossed may have there own opinion, but only you know what its like to be pulled under by the waves. There are several options here of course and i have seen them all here. Some fight the rapids, inch by inch constantly gaining and losing ground, Some sit idly on the bank defeated, others, fight for awhile and then start to learn from the constant struggle. They slowly and methodically collect the tools they need to build a bridge. SHB, you spent some time in the waves, and I've seen you sit on the bank. In recent days I've read your advice to others. My dear your using those tools!

TOJAZ

[TaraMaiden]

Absolutely right SHB, everyone mourns in different ways and for different amounts of time. I have seen a huge improvement in you, since you first came here and I know you are trying, not wallowing, like you said you are in thearpy etc. It makes me wonder Tara? Have you ever experienced this? Or were you a leaver?

 

Yes, I've experienced it.

 

Of course I've experienced it!

Hell, I'd be a stupid-ass ferkin' hypocrite posting what I post if I hadn't wouldn't I?

Jeesh, I say what I say exactly and absolutely because I have experienced it.

How stupid and cretinous would I be if I was speaking from a place of INexperience?

 

And SHB, no amount of therapy, divorce classes, books, literature counselling or guidance is going to help you.

You can go to all the classes and sessions you like (Just Like I did.) But one day, it will slowly, and painfully dawn on you (just as it did me) that all the time and investment you put into such matters is absolutely hopeless, because none of them can make you move on.

 

ONLY YOU CAN MAKE YOU MOVE ON.

It's got nothing to do with short-cuts.

It's got everything to do with refusing to be a pained person for one more day.

 

I know you don't believe me.

I understand you don't believe me.

And I understand that what I have written pisses you off.

 

But unfortunately, it happens to be true.

 

And maybe, that's the most infuriating thing of all.

Hell, it sure as heck p1$$ed me off.

especially when I realised that I could have recovered a lot sooner.

 

I'm sorry that I have made you angry.

But that doesn't make what I say any less valid.

 

With that, I will not post here any more.

 

But think carefully, on this.

 

Your very first thought, in the morning, leads to another thought.

That thought, in its turn, leads you to yet another.

 

If the first thought you have in the morning, is in a place of Pain, anger, resentment, and hurting - it follows, that every thought you have after that, will follow suit.

And worsen.

 

Unless -

You check that very first thought.

And refuse to follow it.

 

This is what I had to do.

I had to arrest my thinking, and completely change the way I perceived things.

Because I finally realised that I was doing it to myself.

The second I realised which way my thoughts were taking me, I had to rein in, and abruptly arrest my thoughts, and observe my own tendency to lead myself into a painful minefield of distress.

 

It meant going the long way round.

But it eventually led me in a far better direction than the one I had been taking.

 

 

I wish you well, and I wish you peace of mind, serenity and contentment.

And above all, I wish it for you soon.

 

TM.

[soheartbroken]

I will let it rest too. I think you are trying to help Tara...so thank you for trying. I guess we think differently...(or maybe not as differently as we think).

[FeelingLonely98]

"because none of them can make you move on."

"ONLY YOU CAN MAKE YOU MOVE ON."

"could have recovered a lot sooner."

"check that very first thought. And refuse to follow it."

"arrest my thinking, completely change the way I perceived things."

"I had to rein in, and abruptly arrest my thoughts,"

 

Let me start by saying I hope you do not leave this thread Tara - I think an in-your-face poster like you serves a great purpose here. Some (me?) may not like what you post but it is important I think.

 

In a way I believe all these things that you say Tara.

I am "moving on", "recovering", "changing", ... outwardly.

I filed for divorce. The hearing should be in Dec. I am fixing up my house. Doing things for ME. I have been NC for 28 days. Planning a trip to Amsterdam with a couple of my sisters and some friends. Last night we did the "family" thing of trimming the tree, putting up the lights outside the house. God knows I didn't have my heart in that - SHE was always a BIG part in this day, the ringleader - she loved this day every year. The music, the decorating, ... all of that. I would always put the tree up in the stand and then happily watch everyone do all the trimming. {very nice} My sons (16 & 18) told me they really wanted to do all of this again this year. I'm becoming more involved in my church. I could go on .......

These are all outward actions and just things I am doing because it is "right" for someone with a broken shattered heart like me.

But inside? I have no control of my mind and my heart. My mind can't seem to move on, it is always finding it's way back to her. Being in the middle of the holiday season doesn't help. And my heart feels so heavy and broken. I don't think I will ever love anyone as much as loved her. I wish I was as strong as you Tara, I'm not. There will come a day when I take that last step and I can think ok, THIS is what Tara meant. I don't see that in my near future. It is SO hard. :(

[curiou]

Tara

 

I agree with your posts completely. But I would have to say some people are wired a little differently. Some people fall in love with philosophizing about their pain to where it becomes a daily ritual, even a part of them. They want everyone to remember the devastation that occurred. It becomes a partof their identity. Low self esteem plays a part too in perpetuating this.

 

Those who can grieve, and then move on, do. Those others never quite have enough self love to say enough and to move on.

 

It is sad really. They always say something a out if they had known earlier in the relationship they would be jilted they would have moved on at the time. But now that they have actually BEEN jilted they can't. Hard to explain.

 

Yes, I've experienced it.

 

Of course I've experienced it!

Hell, I'd be a stupid-ass ferkin' hypocrite posting what I post if I hadn't wouldn't I?

Jeesh, I say what I say exactly and absolutely because I have experienced it.

How stupid and cretinous would I be if I was speaking from a place of INexperience?

 

And SHB, no amount of therapy, divorce classes, books, literature counselling or guidance is going to help you.

You can go to all the classes and sessions you like (Just Like I did.) But one day, it will slowly, and painfully dawn on you (just as it did me) that all the time and investment you put into such matters is absolutely hopeless, because none of them can make you move on.

 

ONLY YOU CAN MAKE YOU MOVE ON.

It's got nothing to do with short-cuts.

It's got everything to do with refusing to be a pained person for one more day.

 

I know you don't believe me.

I understand you don't believe me.

And I understand that what I have written pisses you off.

 

But unfortunately, it happens to be true.

 

And maybe, that's the most infuriating thing of all.

Hell, it sure as heck p1$$ed me off.

especially when I realised that I could have recovered a lot sooner.

 

I'm sorry that I have made you angry.

But that doesn't make what I say any less valid.

 

With that, I will not post here any more.

 

But think carefully, on this.

 

Your very first thought, in the morning, leads to another thought.

That thought, in its turn, leads you to yet another.

 

If the first thought you have in the morning, is in a place of Pain, anger, resentment, and hurting - it follows, that every thought you have after that, will follow suit.

And worsen.

 

Unless -

You check that very first thought.

And refuse to follow it.

 

This is what I had to do.

I had to arrest my thinking, and completely change the way I perceived things.

Because I finally realised that I was doing it to myself.

The second I realised which way my thoughts were taking me, I had to rein in, and abruptly arrest my thoughts, and observe my own tendency to lead myself into a painful minefield of distress.

 

It meant going the long way round.

But it eventually led me in a far better direction than the one I had been taking.

 

 

I wish you well, and I wish you peace of mind, serenity and contentment.

And above all, I wish it for you soon.

 

TM.

[karnak]

Tara

 

I agree with your posts completely. But I would have to say some people are wired a little differently. Some people fall in love with philosophizing about their pain to where it becomes a daily ritual, even a part of them. They want everyone to remember the devastation that occurred. It becomes a partof their identity. Low self esteem plays a part too in perpetuating this.

 

Those who can grieve, and then move on, do. Those others never quite have enough self love to say enough and to move on.

 

It is sad really. They always say something a out if they had known earlier in the relationship they would be jilted they would have moved on at the time. But now that they have actually BEEN jilted they can't. Hard to explain.

 

To be honest I think it's a little more complicated than that, curiou.

 

I agree that some people seem to wallow in self-pity. But others seem to have the strength to move one. Yet it also varies according to the feelings you have for some people.

 

Just like the parents don't have the same feelings for all their children, we don't have the same degree of "feeling" for others.

 

I had my share of girls dumping me. Some hurt me a lot. Others not really. Also, some of us are more "emotional" than others, and feel their losses very much.

 

Others are just "stone cold". Serial-killers and sociopaths are extreme examples of persons who have a very low emotional attachment to the world and people around them.

 

My grandmother, as an example, lost her husband, her son and all her brothers along her life. Yet, apart from sadness in the first week of mourning, she always carried with her life as if nothing had happended.

 

Brrrrrrrrrr... cold

[soheartbroken]

Yes Karnak. It is complicated. Some people do form deeper attachments and are emotional, like myself. I have no problem admitting that. The other factor is history. Speaking personally, I have unresolved grief issues, that is, there is at least one event from my past that has come back up after losing my ex.

 

My friends, who all have intact families of origin (parents are still together) seem to rebound more quickly than I do. Then again, none of their relationships were as long as mine, and none shared what I would call a home with their exes.

[soheartbroken]

Let me start by saying I hope you do not leave this thread Tara - I think an in-your-face poster like you serves a great purpose here. Some (me?) may not like what you post but it is important I think.

 

In a way I believe all these things that you say Tara.

I am "moving on", "recovering", "changing", ... outwardly.

I filed for divorce. The hearing should be in Dec. I am fixing up my house. Doing things for ME. I have been NC for 28 days. Planning a trip to Amsterdam with a couple of my sisters and some friends. Last night we did the "family" thing of trimming the tree, putting up the lights outside the house. God knows I didn't have my heart in that - SHE was always a BIG part in this day, the ringleader - she loved this day every year. The music, the decorating, ... all of that. I would always put the tree up in the stand and then happily watch everyone do all the trimming. {very nice} My sons (16 & 18) told me they really wanted to do all of this again this year. I'm becoming more involved in my church. I could go on .......

These are all outward actions and just things I am doing because it is "right" for someone with a broken shattered heart like me.

But inside? I have no control of my mind and my heart. My mind can't seem to move on, it is always finding it's way back to her. Being in the middle of the holiday season doesn't help. And my heart feels so heavy and broken. I don't think I will ever love anyone as much as loved her. I wish I was as strong as you Tara, I'm not. There will come a day when I take that last step and I can think ok, THIS is what Tara meant. I don't see that in my near future. It is SO hard. :(

 

I think though, FL98, that by doing all these things, part of you wants to get better, and wants to grow from what you've gone through. Even if you don't say this out loud, even if your heart's not in it, you do want to get better.

 

I don't think this makes you less strong than others, as you suggest. It's normal! Why would your heart be into Christmas decorating the first Christmas after the split? Why wouldn't your heart feel broken after your wife left?

 

Grieving is a universal human process. It does not take days, but often months, and divorces and deaths can take years. Going slow does not mean that you're doing something wrong. It is a reflection of many factors.

 

So often, I think people on these boards look back at their own experience, and think that with their newfound knowledge, they can help to "rush" other people through their grief. But it can't be done, and if you try to rush through it I think it can be harmful. Some of the vets here have kind of realized this, that people aren't going to immediately take their advice, and will make their own "mistakes", no matter what anyone tells them. Some of these "mistakes" are just part of grieving though in my mind.

[tojaz]

Flip side of all of that is that while people who can keep their attachments limited do heal from a breakup, or divorce faster. They are unable to experience as much love and intimacy as those who are more vulnerable and open. I personally wouldn't trade my pain for being that way.

TOJAZ

[curiou]

Hmm. I'll fall on the grenade and take the jibes, even if not personally directed at me.

 

Perhaps I don't "love" my spouse as deeply as you guys do. I won't argue. No one could prove I don't, and it would be entirely subjective to try to prove that I do. So maybe you're right. I don't care, as I'm pretty happy where I am with her.

 

But extending your and soheartbroken's line of thinking, let's continue to explore the idea that you are grieving normally following the loss of your spouse because you loved them so deeply.

 

Some of the best research on grieving following the loss of a spouse (and I freely admit that I'm extrapolating from her papers on grieving after the death of a spouse) come from Susan Nolen-Hoeksema, a professor of psychology at Yale. The gist of much of her research is that people who tend to focus on their grief, and who are enveloped in their negative emotions for more than six months, tend to be people who have long-term depression.

 

Which of course begs the question of whether people who wallow the longest are predisposed to depression in the first place. Thus my statement that people are just wired differently.

 

Now, I can't argue that I'm looking retrospectively with a little bit of emotional detachment from my own ex-wife/affair/walk-away event. So I apologize if you feel as if I'm pushing my opinion too callously. Perhaps I have nothing helpful to add, I don't know. I do know this is a public forum and the posters to these groups have solicited opinions, one of which is mine.

 

Personally, I would prefer to think that we are not absolute servants to the number of neurotransmitters we're born with or how fast the serotonin crosses the ion channels because of our inherent "hard-wiring." I would like to think that we, as humans, have some (or even considerable) control over how long we allow someone who has hurt us to continue to do so.

 

As far as I know, there is no definitive research on actively "escaping grief," so if anyone knows of any, please point me there.

 

Flip side of all of that is that while people who can keep their attachments limited do heal from a breakup, or divorce faster. They are unable to experience as much love and intimacy as those who are more vulnerable and open. I personally wouldn't trade my pain for being that way.

TOJAZ

[karnak]

 

My friends, who all have intact families of origin (parents are still together) seem to rebound more quickly than I do. Then again, none of their relationships were as long as mine, and none shared what I would call a home with their exes.

 

This has nothing to do with intact families. I've friends who are children of divorced parents (some of their parents cut all contact with each other - ugly stuff involved) and yet they're capable of deep emotional attachment. In fact, I consider them to be perhaps more loyal and "balanced" than those who have "intact" families. And by this I mean less selfish, more gentle, less materialistic and more honest.

 

It differs from person to person. I have the luck of having a mother who has always loved me and supported me throughout my entire life. Yet, a cousin of mine doesn't care jack$#!t about her son. She seems to treat him as if he was only another relative.

[karnak]

 

Personally, I would prefer to think that we are not absolute servants to the number of neurotransmitters we're born with or how fast the serotonin crosses the ion channels because of our inherent "hard-wiring." I would like to think that we, as humans, have some (or even considerable) control over how long we allow someone who has hurt us to continue to do so.

 

As far as I know, there is no definitive research on actively "escaping grief," so if anyone knows of any, please point me there.

 

Those are some tough questions you've raised, curiou. Unfortunately, I fear that there some questions that we, as human beings, shall never manage to answer.

 

Such as: why we do we love some people and others we don't? Why do we sometimes treat like crap those we love the most? What is "love"? Etc...

[karnak]

A small story from my past:

 

Once, my mother wanted me to have a small medal with the figure of the Virgin Mary. "For protection", she said.

I was not a religious man. I didn't care about stuff like that. To me it was only a medal and the rest was supertitious hocus-pocus.

My mother wanted me to have it. I said No. Keep it to yourself. I don't care about that religious s#!t.

My mother insisted.

I shouted NO!

My mother began to cry.

 

Enter my father.

 

My father shouts: "YOU IDIOT! Can't you see this has nothing to do with religion?! IF MY MOTHER WANTED ME TO KEEP A STONE, I WOULD KEEP IT! BECAUSE IT WAS GIVEN BY MY MOTHER!! THIS IS A SIGN OF YOUR MOTHER'S LOVE FOR YOU, YOU *******!"

 

I took the medal, then. And I still have it with me.

 

As you see, persons and things have no value, per se. They only have the value we "choose" to give them. Today, this medal of the Virgin Mary has nothing to do with the Virgin herself. It's a symbol of my mother and what she represemts to me.

 

We mourn our losses according to what the missing thing represents in our life, I guess.

 

Thanks for reading this.

[tojaz]

A small story from my past:

 

Once, my mother wanted me to have a small medal with the figure of the Virgin Mary. "For protection", she said.

I was not a religious man. I didn't care about stuff like that. To me it was only a medal and the rest was supertitious hocus-pocus.

My mother wanted me to have it. I said No. Keep it to yourself. I don't care about that religious s#!t.

My mother insisted.

I shouted NO!

My mother began to cry.

 

Enter my father.

 

My father shouts: "YOU IDIOT! Can't you see this has nothing to do with religion?! IF MY MOTHER WANTED ME TO KEEP A STONE, I WOULD KEEP IT! BECAUSE IT WAS GIVEN BY MY MOTHER!! THIS IS A SIGN OF YOUR MOTHER'S LOVE FOR YOU, YOU *******!"

 

I took the medal, then. And I still have it with me.

 

As you see, persons and things have no value, per se. They only have the value we "choose" to give them. Today, this medal of the Virgin Mary has nothing to do with the Virgin herself. It's a symbol of my mother and what she represemts to me.

 

We mourn our losses according to what the missing thing represents in our life, I guess.

 

Thanks for reading this.

 

Beautiful post Karnak, thanks for sharing that story.

TOJAZ

[soheartbroken]

This has nothing to do with intact families. I've friends who are children of divorced parents (some of their parents cut all contact with each other - ugly stuff involved) and yet they're capable of deep emotional attachment. In fact, I consider them to be perhaps more loyal and "balanced" than those who have "intact" families. And by this I mean less selfish, more gentle, less materialistic and more honest.

 

It differs from person to person. I have the luck of having a mother who has always loved me and supported me throughout my entire life. Yet, a cousin of mine doesn't care jack$#!t about her son. She seems to treat him as if he was only another relative.

 

Oh, I didn't mean that people with intact families aren't capable of deep attachment. That's not what I meant at all, sorry. People from not-so intact families are often more caring and less selfish etc. like you said.

 

My parents split when I was 6 years-old, and my mom left the house. I didn't process this at all as a kid. No one talked to me about it or encouraged me to talk about it. I don't even remember crying. This is my unresolved grief.

 

All I meant is that I might be taking my breakup harder than my friends do theirs because I have this issue in my past.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend, and I hope what I was trying to say makes more sense now. And yes, even people with intact families can carry a lot of baggage...