I love her. She loves me. But, she wants to play around.

[Philetus]

Absolutely perfect.

No one else can give you better advice than this.

Best of luck.

Keep us posted

 

I would say her reaction was largely what I expected.

 

It increased the stress on her and made her feel more 'trapped'. She feels backed into a corner and threatens to have the affair 'just to get it behind me'.

 

I'm being firm in the consequences of that.

 

Meanwhile, I'm continuing to work on my marriage. We spent time together playing the guitar and singing. (Something we loved to do way back when.) We joined a class for amateurs like us to get even better - so we're looking forward to it.

 

To release the pressure, I told her this....

I told her to work with me through this marriage and NOT to see this guy at all - otherwise it's D-Day. We start therapy tomorrow and I can't wait. If, after a time, we can't save our marriage, and the therapist agrees, I'll release her.

[eeyore1981]

I take 90% of the blame because I'm the one who got distracted. We both are responsible for giving up 'us' time to deal with life issues - work, kids, house, etc. But, she woke up to this sooner than I did and (afraid of hurting me) didn't come out and say bluntly "I'm not in love with you anymore". But, she did say and do other things - she kept looking for activities that we could do together.

 

For example, we took a swing dance class (her idea). The problem was you had to keep switching partners, we hated it. Other things she suggested, I shot down or didn't work for other reasons. She did say something close to, "I feel like we're just partners in raising our kids".

 

So, the clues were there. They were huge. And I was too stupid, selfish, and/or lazy to see them.

 

This is why I take the lion's share of the blame - but not all of it.

 

I know it's hard to get a balanced view of my wife through what I've posted. You're seeing the worst of her. All I can say is that you have to take my word for it. She loves me! She hasn't not had a physical affair. It may be bordering on emotional, but because she's been open and honest with me, I don't consider she's 'done' anything wrong. And isn't it my opinion that matters on that?

 

She has a clearer idea of the repercussions of her actions but I have to restate it again. Again... my wife is physically quite ill from the stress. Her menstrual cycle is completely screwed up, she's losing a lot of weight, and my wife is not one who can stand to lose much (she's been dancing four times a week for two years, she's in amazing shape.)

 

I told her that if she had an affair, we were over and I would immediately begin divorce proceedings. I told her that she would have to move out. She interpreted that to mean she could live in our basement apartment. I have to be clearer with her because it means I can't be around her. I can't run into her casually several times a week.

 

Phil, I get what you are saying. I ran into the same thing when I first started posting here. You wouldn't be here if you didn't have a problem, and you want to address the problem, not write a 20 page essay on why you love your wife and all the good things about her. This medium can make it difficult to get your whole situation across clearly.

 

I also get the 'clean break', boy, do I ever. To me, it's like having my arm cut off with a sharp ax vs. a butter knife.

 

I am very proud of you. You are staying the course, and I know it isn't easy. If things don't work out, you can know you did your absolute best, and I am keeping my fingers crossed for your MC tomorrow.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I wish you luck, but I have a nagging suspicion.....

 

I read the reviews on the "Ethical Slut".... This and the whole polyamorous lifestyle is just an excuse for an "open marriage"..... If it floats your boat, then go ahead. I have a friend (now divorced), who lives a swinging lifestyle. We love the stories and laugh out loud. However it is what he wants and makes all females he is with aware of. He has had a few LTR's and they eventually fizzle. He however has made it clear, has kids from his marriage and is happy.

 

What your wife wants is permission to have "booty calls", ONS, outside relationships, while maintaining a family and a beautiful home to come back to.

 

Sounds untennable in your case and you have a wife going through a mid-life crisis....

[Philetus]

I will say that as a counterbalance your wife did not - as far as we know yet - go out and have an affair. She has kept you somewhat abreast of what is going on. To me this is not infidelity.

 

This is her realizing that a monogamous longterm relationship can really suck.

 

It is very fair that you yourself are monogamous and do not want to be in a non-monogamous relationship. However, I disagree with the others.

 

Is she trying to have her cake and eat it too? yes.

Is she trying to make it so that she can stay with you? yes.

 

Honestly I think she is trying to make it all work out for everyone.

That probably is not possible but she is giving you a choice.

She did not go to individual counseling, figure out that she is poly and present you with divorce papers, done deal.

 

I think she is trying to communicate with you and be honest.

Sometimes that means admitting to being a sexual and selfish being.

 

 

You HAVE choices.

 

You can tell her you don't want this at all. That you do not want to read the Ethical Slut, that you do not want to have sex with other women.

Then you can give her a choice.

But I see no reason to be mean, to assume the worst of her.

If she had wanted an affair she could have.

Notice that she did not come to you and say. "I have f**ked so and so. You can deal with it or not."

She is looking for your permission, for you to go on this journey with her.

You DON'T have to but you don't have to paint your wife as a monster either.

 

Approach her as a human being. Go to counseling together. Go to polyamorous websites (they will tell your wife to cool it, to go MUCH slower, to respect your choice to be monogamous)

 

I am IN an open marriage. So I see things from the other side.

I did not start out monogamous, but many did.

 

You're right. She has not had an affair and I don't consider what she's done 'infidelity'.

 

I'm beginning to think (and so is she) that her emotions are all over the place due to a medical condition, such as perimenopause or clinical depression.

 

I think you're right, she is trying to make it work for everyone. However, right now, she is not in a mental state where should be making life changing decisions. (A few weeks ago, our daughter told us of two teachers in her school who had an affair and one was marries. She said that 'people who cheated were disgusting'. My wife is risking a lot.)

 

Yes, she's communicating. She's being honest. I don't hate her. I'm not even sure I feel much anger. I'm confused and terrified. I'm sad. But, I don't hate her. My heart goes out to her. She's in pain and I want to help. It's what I've done for 20 years.

 

I understand that you could get the impression from these messages that she's a 'monster'. Every story has two sides, and if she posted on her, she'd get the sympathy and I'd be the 'monster'. I mean, if you want to get to know my wife, I can post pages of what's great about her. I can try to convey her side better but I want to keep my posts short enough (and cover what's essential) so I get helpful advice.

 

I was thinking of offering her THIS solution. To have her work with me in the marriage and not see this guy at all. If, after an appropriate time as judged by a therapist, we can't make our current situation work, we'll try her 'open arrangement' on the condition that I get to 'go first'.

[Philetus]

from what i can gather - it is NOT his first choice to share his wife. HE is allowed to have a boundary which HE abides by... for his own happiness and sanity. if his wife chooses a different path, so be it, it may not include him at this juncture.

 

i think OP's attitude and approach is amazingly strong. i think the letter to his W is spot on for what he has outlined as his perspective and wants, needs, desires in this case.

 

as far as a book "the ethical slut" what man would really want to refer to his W as a slut - and why would she be proud of this? seriously, i really wonder if she's already been fishing in that pond for a while and is just now willing to be up front about what her true desires are.

 

Thank you. I think you nailed my attitude.

 

I don't think I could ever be with her - or even see her - if she's having sex with another man. Just the thought literally brings bile into my mouth. I would have a very negative physical reaction.

 

Also, I have two kids and I can't even begin to understand how this could affect them.

 

All I can say is that you'll have to believe me... she hasn't been fishing. Yes, maybe she's dipped her hook in the water but as soon as she got a bite, she screamed, dropped the pole and came to me.

[Philetus]

P,

Have you been ignoring her physically/sexually?

 

Is the big issue that she has been telling you she wants more passion and you maybe haven't made it a priority?

 

Because that is the one reason a man would shoulder as much blame as you. Not every man has a higher drive then their wife. And when life gets busy some men get distracted.

 

If this isn't the case, then why are you bearing 90 percent of the blame?

 

I have not been ignoring her sexually. That's one way that I love to share intimacy. She thought that providing me with some 'casual sex' might be a lure for me - especially if it was spicy. What she doesn't get is that right now I have about zero interest in sex with her. Since her heart isn't in it, it feels wrong.

 

When she wants to have it again, I'm there, but until then my libido is in the shop.

 

I was not meeting her recreational needs, conversation needs, intellectual needs, and so many others. Things that are critical to her. She wanted to share a range of experiences with me - things we USED to do but we gave up to deal with life issues. I'm a good father, so there were no problems about me not 'pulling my weight' with family or house.

 

She gave me hints about this and I missed them. Her hints were strong, just not clear enough.

[Philetus]

Phil, I get what you are saying. I ran into the same thing when I first started posting here. You wouldn't be here if you didn't have a problem, and you want to address the problem, not write a 20 page essay on why you love your wife and all the good things about her. This medium can make it difficult to get your whole situation across clearly.

 

I also get the 'clean break', boy, do I ever. To me, it's like having my arm cut off with a sharp ax vs. a butter knife.

 

I am very proud of you. You are staying the course, and I know it isn't easy. If things don't work out, you can know you did your absolute best, and I am keeping my fingers crossed for your MC tomorrow.

 

Exactly. My wife is a wonderful person who is going through some tough times right now. I can't help but empathize with her. If she were posting her instead of me, I'd be the 'bad guy'.

 

Thank you. I appreciate the kind words. It helps. Even from complete strangers.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

truly surprising.... However I'll be honest, where someone takes 90% of the blame, sorry they are at fault... If you truly were so bad, maybe she should leave you.....

 

I don't believe that, but you are the one self-flagellating and taking the blame..... If you go to MC and take the fall, don't be surprised if the counseling does not go the way you hope.

[Philetus]

One question...

 

I'm thinking about calling the OM. Being blunt about what's going on. That this decision is literally making my wife very sick and ask him to send her a message that he doesn't want to be with her until she's entered and completed therapy. That is, if he cares for her.

 

The carrot is, if we haven't worked things out by then (she's finished therapy), then she's free to move on with him and no one has be bothered by their conscience.

[GorillaTheater]

One question...

 

I'm thinking about calling the OM. Being blunt about what's going on. That this decision is literally making my wife very sick and ask him to send her a message that he doesn't want to be with her until she's entered and completed therapy. That is, if he cares for her.

 

The carrot is, if we haven't worked things out by then (she's finished therapy), then she's free to move on with him and no one has be bothered by their conscience.

 

You're apt to get mixed advice on contacting the OM, but my feeling is that there's little chance of accomplishing anything useful by doing so. If he's married, on the other hand, you may accomplish quite a bit by contacting his wife.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

One question...

 

I'm thinking about calling the OM. Being blunt about what's going on. That this decision is literally making my wife very sick and ask him to send her a message that he doesn't want to be with her until she's entered and completed therapy. That is, if he cares for her.

 

The carrot is, if we haven't worked things out by then (she's finished therapy), then she's free to move on with him and no one has be bothered by their conscience.

 

You already let them go on a date. He knows her situation and you have condoned it to this point. You really think she has told the teacher that "I want to have sex with you on a weekly basis and my husband has given us permission. He will stay home with the kids on Saturday, while we have sex.... I will then go home and Sundays with my husband I'll be f+&*ing him too. Look forward to Saturday....."

 

Of course, like my friend, he may be living the swinging lifestyle and be quite enticed by this situation/no strings attached proposal.

 

You must be delusional or at least living in a different universe.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Toodamnpragmatic

[Philetus]

You already let them go on a date. He knows her situation and you have condoned it to this point. You really think she has told the teacher that "I want to have sex with you on a weekly basis and my husband has given us permission. He will stay home with the kids on Saturday, while we have sex.... I will then go home and Sundays with my husband I'll be f+&*ing him too. Look forward to Saturday....."

 

Of course, like my friend, he may be living the swinging lifestyle and be quite enticed by this situation/no strings attached proposal.

 

You must be delusional or at least living in a different universe.

 

He's recently separated. I know he was pretty upset by what happened to his children when his wife left him for another man.

 

She told him that she wouldn't be with him until she fixed things with me. She never mentioned anything about a swinging lifestyle. If she goes to him and says her marriage is over, he'll go for it.

 

It's to stop her from doing a desperate act just to stop feeling tormented. She said, 'if she goes and does it, it's over' and at least she'll stop living in torment.

 

I was hoping (pretty futile, I know) I could appeal to something in him. I don't think I could do this anyway.

[Blindsidedagainalive]

Really, why do you think so.

 

Because she didn't admit it- Wrong

Because she is so busy- Wrong

Because she told you she was interested in the dance teacher- Wrong

Because her time is always accounted for- Wrong

Because she loves you- Wrong

 

People who have sexual affairs almost NEVER admit it unless you have undeniable proof.

 

My WW cheated on me. She loved me more than anything. She NEVER claimed she was unhappy. She NEVER flirted.

We were ALWAYS with each other...even commuted to work together.

 

BUT....for 1 hour a week, virtually the only time we weren't together.....she was having sex with another man for 6 months. I had ABSOLUTELY no idea.

 

You have much greater clues that she is having an affair. It's a soft sell. I'm not ****ing someone, just interested in having sex with them.

 

Women generally become interested in sex with men AFTER they have sex the first time.

 

I doubt very much that she'd be willing to go this far without already having a sexual affair with this man. If it were a crush....the crush would be killed after you knowing about it.

 

She has been taking dance classes for 2 years. How long has she known this teacher for?

 

If she has known him for more than a few months, suspect a sexual affair.

 

DO NOT CALL HIM.....SEEK EVIDENCE.

Go through e-mail, cell phone records, install a key logger on her computer.

 

Watch her closely, a run to the supermarket can often be a quickie.

 

My WW NEVER spent more than 2 hours with the other man per meeting.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

He's recently separated. I know he was pretty upset by what happened to his children when his wife left him for another man.

 

She told him that she wouldn't be with him until she fixed things with me. She never mentioned anything about a swinging lifestyle. If she goes to him and says her marriage is over, he'll go for it.

 

It's to stop her from doing a desperate act just to stop feeling tormented. She said, 'if she goes and does it, it's over' and at least she'll stop living in torment.

 

I was hoping (pretty futile, I know) I could appeal to something in him. I don't think I could do this anyway.

 

but get your head out of the sand..... Again what is fixing things? Getting your approval to have an "open affair"? Do you know what the "Ethical Slut" is and what she is proposing? Do you know his past or why he is separated?

 

Sorry..... but polyamorous and swinging to me is the same thing..... I wouldn't be fooled by the way it is packaged..... If you read below I'd say she is describing swinging to you, as she claims she doesn't want an emotional relationship with him, just sex. Polyamorous claims more a love/relationship dynamic....

 

http://www.serolynne.com/polyvsswing.htm

Edited December 8, 2009 by Toodamnpragmatic

[jmargel]

Phil,

 

It's not this man you have to be worried about, it's your wife. If it's not this guy then it's going to be another. Your wife has a total lack of respect for you and the marriage. You trying to bargain your way through this is not going to work. Three in a relationship doesn't work either. If she wants to continue the marriage with you, it's either she goes into therapy and has NC with this man (for good) or you are moving on without her.

 

Open that cage door as wide as you can for her, make her face the consequences for her behavior. Stop rolling over and piddling on yourself when it comes to all of this. The person who's going to get the short end of the stick here is YOU. Not only show confidence but live it. Let her know that you are ready to move on without her. You can love her but you don't need to tolerate this.

 

Honestly good chance they have more going on then she is admitting. Perhaps she is trying to get your OK with all of this so that she feels less guilty about what she has done already. Doesn't matter though. Unless you start sticking up for yourself and putting into action about what she has to face, then you are going to continue to be crapped on.

 

Too many beautiful, fun loving women in this world to put up with her disrespect, immaturity and lack of morals.

[Philetus]

truly surprising.... However I'll be honest, where someone takes 90% of the blame, sorry they are at fault... If you truly were so bad, maybe she should leave you.....

 

I don't believe that, but you are the one self-flagellating and taking the blame..... If you go to MC and take the fall, don't be surprised if the counseling does not go the way you hope.

 

That's possible. I was distant and she woke to this about six months or a year ago.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I've also forgot to ask.... Where's Lizzie to add her 2 cents and set Philetus straight???? She'll tell him, his wife is tired of him and it is over (the sex part at least). Any sex with the two of you have going forward will be only a chore/mercy shag for her.....

[Philetus]

but get your head out of the sand..... Again what is fixing things? Getting your approval to have an "open affair"? Do you know what the "Ethical Slut" is and what she is proposing? Do you know his past or why he is separated?

 

Sorry..... but polyamorous and swinging to me is the same thing..... I wouldn't be fooled by the way it is packaged..... If you read below I'd say she is describing swinging to you, as she claims she doesn't want an emotional relationship with him, just sex. Polyamorous claims more a love/relationship dynamic....

 

http://www.serolynne.com/polyvsswing.htm

 

I didn't mean to write 'swinging', I meant to write 'polyamorous'.

 

To me, fixing things is getting her to commit to a fixed-period of therapy both for herself, and for us to figure out OUR situation.

 

This therapy has two possible conclusions. Either we live happily ever after or we split as amiably as possible. There will be no polyamory or swinging or anything else.

 

At this point, he is mostly irrelevant. It's just that due to my wife's stressful state of mind (she's physically ill by this), she was considering just 'going through with it' to end her torment. She said, "it would have horrible consequences, but at least, it'd be settled and I could get back to building a life."

 

I don't want her to do something in desperation, due to the pressure of her mentally anguished state, that she may regret for the rest of her life and bring great pain to my children. Not to mention the financial ramifications of such a thing.

 

That is all that I'm asking for - for her to commit to therapy.

[Philetus]

Phil,

 

It's not this man you have to be worried about, it's your wife. If it's not this guy then it's going to be another. Your wife has a total lack of respect for you and the marriage. You trying to bargain your way through this is not going to work. Three in a relationship doesn't work either. If she wants to continue the marriage with you, it's either she goes into therapy and has NC with this man (for good) or you are moving on without her.

 

Open that cage door as wide as you can for her, make her face the consequences for her behavior. Stop rolling over and piddling on yourself when it comes to all of this. The person who's going to get the short end of the stick here is YOU. Not only show confidence but live it. Let her know that you are ready to move on without her. You can love her but you don't need to tolerate this.

 

Honestly good chance they have more going on then she is admitting. Perhaps she is trying to get your OK with all of this so that she feels less guilty about what she has done already. Doesn't matter though. Unless you start sticking up for yourself and putting into action about what she has to face, then you are going to continue to be crapped on.

 

Too many beautiful, fun loving women in this world to put up with her disrespect, immaturity and lack of morals.

 

Please don't take this as negative, but did you read the whole thread?

[Philetus]

I've also forgot to ask.... Where's Lizzie to add her 2 cents and set Philetus straight???? She'll tell him, his wife is tired of him and it is over (the sex part at least). Any sex with the two of you have going forward will be only a chore/mercy shag for her.....

 

Sex isn't the issue.

 

It's other needs - doing things together, sitting and talking, taking an active interest in each others' days.

[Blindsidedagainalive]

I have seen this over and over...literally hundreds of times in the past 2 years since my WW's affair.

 

She is WAY too confused and mentally anguished Pre-affair.

 

 

I strongly suspect, as I posted earlier that she is already in an affair.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Sex isn't the issue.

 

It's other needs - doing things together, sitting and talking, taking an active interest in each others' days.

 

Oh yes it is all about SEX..... She wants to CHEAT on you. Swinging/polyamour, to me regardless of the argument is the same thing.... It involves SEX with someone else...... If not she should talk to a professional or a friend and let it out.

 

So do those other things..... Do you really think by doing that all will be magically fixed???? Obviously not, because now that you've been told, you are working on them.... What will happen, is she'll find another string of excuses or issues.

 

Add to that you bring up her medical issues that you too have taken ownership of..... You are taking all the blame.

 

You sound like a very nice guy, but your selfless self-flagellation has me perplexed.....

Edited December 8, 2009 by Toodamnpragmatic

[Philetus]

Oh yes it is all about SEX..... She wants to CHEAT on you. Swinging/polyamour, to me regardless of the argument is the same thing.... It involves SEX with someone else...... If not she should talk to a professional or a friend and let it out.

 

So do those other things..... Do you really think by doing that all will be magically fixed???? Obviously not, because now that you've been told, you are working on them.... What will happen, is she'll find another string of excuses or issues.

 

Add to that you bring up her medical issues that you too have taken ownership of..... You are taking all the blame.

 

You sound like a very nice guy, but your selfless self-flagellation has me perplexed.....

 

I thought you were asking if there were issues with sex in our relationship. There wasn't.

 

Do I think things will be magically fixed? No, not by magic but by hard work and a dedication, that is life long, to address the underlying issues.

 

I"m not trying to take ownership of her medical issues. I'm saying that it's HER indecision and conflicts that are leading to that. I take little responsibility for that.

 

I take ownership for not giving my marriage the attention it deserves and not picking up on her, not so subtle, hints.

 

However, that does not mean I will accept her having an affair. It does not mean I will accept polyamory.

 

There are remedies going forward that I will accept. That is, working with a therapist over a fixed period of time (to be determined by the therapist and us) to resolve our issues.

 

If she is unwilling to do that, I've already told her what will happen - antagonistic divorce!

 

Again, I think it's hard for you to completely analyze my situation because you're not getting all the information.

 

Have I accepted too much of the blame? Possibly. But, I told her point blank that had she been honest with me, I would have moved immediately to address these issues months ago.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I thought you were asking if there were issues with sex in our relationship. There wasn't.

 

Do I think things will be magically fixed? No, not by magic but by hard work and a dedication, that is life long, to address the underlying issues.

 

I"m not trying to take ownership of her medical issues. I'm saying that it's HER indecision and conflicts that are leading to that. I take little responsibility for that.

 

I take ownership for not giving my marriage the attention it deserves and not picking up on her, not so subtle, hints.

 

However, that does not mean I will accept her having an affair. It does not mean I will accept polyamory.

 

There are remedies going forward that I will accept. That is, working with a therapist over a fixed period of time (to be determined by the therapist and us) to resolve our issues.

 

If she is unwilling to do that, I've already told her what will happen - antagonistic divorce!

 

Again, I think it's hard for you to completely analyze my situation because you're not getting all the information.

 

Have I accepted too much of the blame? Possibly. But, I told her point blank that had she been honest with me, I would have moved immediately to address these issues months ago.

 

I am however only answering the questions or posts based on her wanting an AFFAIR.... You posted the book she has ordered for you to read. She has gone on the date. She has stated she is interested in him sexually only, yet wants you to read a book on Polyamour, which is about love and sex, as opposed to swinging, which is the sex act by and large.

 

I have not in one post asked about your sex life... I have only said what she is claiming she wants from this relationship...... SEX!!!!!

 

The fact that you state there is no trouble with your sex lives, though you have let other parts of your marriage falter, is completely analogous

to what is almost always written here about men having sex issues with their wives, makes me wonder aloud that there is way more going on.

 

Good luck with the MC. Very curious as to how it works out.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Toodamnpragmatic

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I hope some answers have been exposed.

 

I find this one of the most fascinating posts and am surprised that responses have been minimal. Yes there are multiple pages, but the last few have been me posting the statement that his wife wants SEX with another man and the rest is a smokescreen, with Philetus taking the blame for their relationship and arguing the point.

 

Add to that the wife has bought what I consider a "dangerous" book "The Ethical Slut" for this marriage and has told him to read it.

 

Anyone else want to weigh in????