Hiring someone who has been fired?

[Art_Critic]

You can be as sarcastic as you want about it, but ultimately, when I a multi billion dollar company wants to build a bullet proof case with the intention of terminating you: They will cover their bases, to prevent you having any court case.

 

Even small ones..

 

I have had to use the type of software you posted about before.

We had an employee once that was suspected of downloading child porn videos so I purchased the software and installed it on his computer and let me tell you that it told me too much about him.

 

Not only did I get to see stuff like his bank balance and password for that but I also got to see his lavalife account that he was using to cheat on his wife with.

It allowed an incredible look into his life at work and honestly I didn't need to see that much but the software gives it all to you.

 

Emails.. even from yahoo and gmail etc.... screen grabs.. everything...

 

We ultimately had to let him go.. once the child porn was discovered we had to legally protect ourselves and we built a case against him for his dismissal.

 

That was the only time I've ever had to do something like that and hopefully the last.

 

We own the network.. the computers on the network and the internet access as well as the employees time while being paid to work while they use that network and the law is very clear that since we own it we have every right to protect it and to protect the company.

 

Never believe that someone isn't watching your internet access while you are at work.... they are.. even if just logging the history and not looking at it but at the very least it is being logged for later viewing if needed.

 

All internet activity goes thru firewalls, routers and servers that monitor the packets and log it on it's way out and in the company.. so even if they aren't monitoring your physical computer they are at least monitoring your internet usage.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Art_Critic

[tinktronik]

Even small ones..

 

I have had to use the type of software you posted about before.

We had an employee once that was suspected of downloading child porn videos so I purchased the software and installed it on his computer and let me tell you that it told me too much about him.

 

Not only did I get to see stuff like his bank balance and password for that but I also got to see his lavalife account that he was using to cheat on his wife with.

It allowed an incredible look into his life at work and honestly I didn't need to see that much but the software gives it all to you.

 

Emails.. even from yahoo and gmail etc.... screen grabs.. everything...

 

We ultimately had to let him go.. once the child porn was discovered we had to legally protect ourselves and we built a case against him for his dismissal.

 

That was the only time I've ever had to do something like that and hopefully the last.

 

We own the network.. the computers on the network and the internet access as well as the employees time while being paid to work while they use that network and the law is very clear that since we own it we have every right to protect it and to protect the company.

 

Never believe that someone isn't watching your internet access while you are at work.... they are.. even if just logging the history and not looking at it but at the very least it is being logged for later viewing if needed.

 

All internet activity goes thru firewalls, routers and servers that monitor the packets and log it on it's way out and in the company.. so even if they aren't monitoring your physical computer they are at least monitoring your internet usage.

You are spot on. All of our employees are work-at-home but we own the equipment they work with and we do monitor every single machine.

 

It is a matter of "am I paying you to play internet games all day." I don't, as an employer want to pay anyone for doing the all of things they should be doing during their time off. The monitoring came about as a result of projects coming in late or unfinished and the main source of it was that everyone was busy with other things and not working until the last min. I tried bonuses for projects in on time and done to spec and raises and nothing worked except babysitting them through monitoring. Once we let everyone know that they would be monitored for productivity work flow cleaned up greatly. It was very disappointing. Who wants to have to babysit grown adults to make sure they are willing to do their jobs?

 

But all in all I would say it is a much needed tool that serves employers very well. And of course you have every right to monitor productivity. And yes, it does grab everything.

[Mary3]

I would think you would either :

 

A : Bring your own laptop to check your mail.

B : Wait until you get home to check your email

C: Ask your employer if you can go on forums , dating sites , Myspace or what have you in your down time.

 

Seems number #3 would solve a big part of your potetial for getting into trouble..

[Art_Critic]

I would think you would either :

 

A : Bring your own laptop to check your mail.

B : Wait until you get home to check your email

C: Ask your employer if you can go on forums , dating sites , Myspace or what have you in your down time.

 

Seems number #3 would solve a big part of your potetial for getting into trouble..

 

 

A.. You are still being logged as you are using their network.. it may be your laptop but they still own the network and internet access and you are still on their dime if you are on the clock.

If you are using cellular and they pay for it then you are still being logged and monitored.

 

To take it further

Some companies even put GPS trackers on their company cars to monitor where there employees are at.

they check to see if they are really out making calls or if they are in the wrong place intown.. etc etc..

 

B.. Safe

 

C.. Still being logged...

[MissGoLightly]

I would think you would either :

 

A : Bring your own laptop to check your mail.

B : Wait until you get home to check your email

C: Ask your employer if you can go on forums , dating sites , Myspace or what have you in your down time.

 

Seems number #3 would solve a big part of your potetial for getting into trouble..

 

Am I the only who thinks that if you have "down time" at work, while you're ON THE CLOCK, you should be asking your supervisor if you can help on another project, etc.?

[Mary3]

A.. You are still being logged as you are using their network.. it may be your laptop but they still own the network and internet access and you are still on their dime if you are on the clock.

If you are using cellular and they pay for it then you are still being logged and monitored.

 

To take it further

Some companies even put GPS trackers on their company cars to monitor where there employees are at.

they check to see if they are really out making calls or if they are in the wrong place intown.. etc etc..

 

B.. Safe

 

C.. Still being logged...

 

I wanted to respond to the last part of your post ( First ) . Regarding the GPS. Seems in the state I used to live , the City Utility Workers , would park their trucks and SLEEP during their shift...It was a news crew that came upon them at a 7-11 Conveinance Store sleeping in the parking lot...Asked them if it was okay for them to sleep making $ 18 an hour , and did their employers know they were sleeping every day ( they tracked them for a week ) in the parking lot ? ( GPS might of helped here , who knows..)

 

Of course it showed up on the nightly news. Not sure what happened to those workers but apparently they had been doing it for a LONG TIME.

 

Thanks for your clarification about the Network Use . Makes sense. Its their network.

 

I guess I would either check my mail at home or pick an employer who says its okay to do whatever you want and no we wont check on it...lol

[MissGoLightly]

Am I the only who thinks that if you have "down time" at work, while you're ON THE CLOCK, you should be asking your supervisor if you can help on another project, etc.?

 

Tried to add: What a great way to a) not get fired b) be a productive employee c) earn a raise d) get a good reference if you need or want to leave....

[Mary3]

Tried to add: What a great way to a) not get fired b) be a productive employee c) earn a raise d) get a good reference if you need or want to leave....

 

I agree with this. I never had a job where I could use an employers computer so thats why I didn't know about the issues above until now. I think it would show you really care about the company and would find something else to do for them. Unless of course you had a HUGE down time job and they didn't seem to care what you did in the down time...I think it always depends on the company's policies...

[MissGoLightly]

I agree with this. I never had a job where I could use an employers computer so thats why I didn't know about the issues above until now. I think it would show you really care about the company and would find something else to do for them. Unless of course you had a HUGE down time job and they didn't seem to care what you did in the down time...I think it always depends on the company's policies...

 

I suppose, and maybe I just don't have broad enough experience to relate....

 

But it seems to me that there is pretty much always something else you could be doing, and I truly believe that hard work is the best way to get ahead in life.

 

I have all kinds of examples (my own, friends', family members') of people I know who have to pick up the slack for other people who are too busy surfing the net or texting other people during work hours to actually do their own work, let alone taking on extra responsibility.

 

I think this is even more important for someone like the OP, who is young and just starting her career.

[Mary3]

I suppose, and maybe I just don't have broad enough experience to relate....

 

But it seems to me that there is pretty much always something else you could be doing, and I truly believe that hard work is the best way to get ahead in life.

 

I have all kinds of examples (my own, friends', family members') of people I know who have to pick up the slack for other people who are too busy surfing the net or texting other people during work hours to actually do their own work, let alone taking on extra responsibility.

 

I think this is even more important for someone like the OP, who is young and just starting her career.

 

I agree with you again. At my last job I always tried to find things to do when finished with my work. If that meant helping other workers or doing some side jobs they needed. It just seemed to make sense to me. Otherwise they were looking to send people home early to save money..

[curiousnycgirl]

As someone who used to manage over 60 people, I fail to see how the information that someone had posted that their manager was an ahole anonymously on an internet forum would have ever found it's way to me. As someone who manages over 400 people worldwide, I can assure it is very easy. Every web site captures the IP address used by every poster. So now the chat room knows that someone at XYZ company thinks their manager is an ahole - so now the person posting is acting as a representative of the company and saying that IS a terminatable offense

 

And if it did I would have raised some serious issues about information flow and what people analysing this stuff were doing that was productive. Usually the software is set to capture particular words - ahole would be one of those words. Another example - a friend of mine was trying to send a subordinate some constructive input in prep for a meeting. Told them to go in with confidence, guns a blazing, blah, blah, blah (it was a long email) - but most importantly make sure you have all the ammunition you need in case they push back - the software picked this up as a conversation about guns and to be an inappropriate use of company resources, and she was being officially warned that another infraction would result in termination.

 

 

Those systems are supposed to be there to prevent serious issues like leaking company information, denigrating the company, downloading porn, or other illegal activites. Just because you can find out information above and beyond it doesn't mean there's an excuse for being incompetent enough to either need or want to. Let alone using it to turn a non-issue into a sackable offence. See that's where you are wrong, sackable is in the eye of the beholder - and a company can define it almost any way they choose. Oh and btw porn is not illegal.

 

Nice to know that a top software developer has incompetent enough managers to have to view internet history to find out how productive their employee's are. It's not really a surprise to find out theres an issue with productivity though

 

Sorry to disagree again but it's just another data point - if you want to build a bullet proof case - then all data points are good.

[Blackfrost]

Am I the only who thinks that if you have "down time" at work, while you're ON THE CLOCK, you should be asking your supervisor if you can help on another project, etc.?

 

you would think? You would be suprised at how many people get angry with me every year because they didn't get some huge raise, and I usually ask them "So, what exactly did you do this year for the company, to deserve a big raise?". Sitting quietly and just doing only what you have to do in your job does not single you from the other 300 people in the company.

 

I just can't believe how many people think they are entitled to everything, when they give little to nothing.

[Art_Critic]

you would think? You would be suprised at how many people get angry with me every year because they didn't get some huge raise, and I usually ask them "So, what exactly did you do this year for the company, to deserve a big raise?". Sitting quietly and just doing only what you have to do in your job does not single you from the other 300 people in the company.

 

I just can't believe how many people think they are entitled to everything, when they give little to nothing.

 

I have taken raises to a slightly different level...

 

To me an employee has already been paid for their past performance..

To pay someone a raise for what they did in the past and what they were already paid for is mind boggling to me..

 

I believe that a raise is for what that particular employee will do for my company in the future.

 

Show me that that you will make me money in the future based on your past performance and you will get the raise today...

 

Show me that you will be flat or that you will keep the status quo then there isn't a raise coming your way..

 

Harsh.. maybe.. but I'm not in business to keep the status quo..

Edited December 19, 2009 by Art_Critic

[Blackfrost]

I have taken raises to a slightly different level...

 

To me an employee has already been paid for their past performance..

To pay someone a raise for what they did in the past and what they were already paid for is mind boggling to me..

 

I believe that a raise is for what that particular employee will do for my company in the future.

 

Show me that that you will make me money in the future based on your past performance and you will get the raise today...

 

Show me that you will be flat or that you will keep the status quo then there isn't a raise coming your way..

 

Harsh.. maybe.. but I'm not in business to keep the status quo..

 

You should come work for our corporate HR team, and help me change these antiquated policies that I have to argue with them everyday! I like your thinking, and if I could do that I would, because I believe it gives people strong incentive ($) to push themselves harder when they see that you believe in them, and back that up by rewarding their bottom line.

[Mary3]

you would think? You would be suprised at how many people get angry with me every year because they didn't get some huge raise, and I usually ask them "So, what exactly did you do this year for the company, to deserve a big raise?". Sitting quietly and just doing only what you have to do in your job does not single you from the other 300 people in the company.

 

I just can't believe how many people think they are entitled to everything, when they give little to nothing.

 

I respect what you are saying. Lets take a Bonus / versus a Raise . Same thing ? Different ? How can you explain these bail out companies getting huge bonuses ? Do you feel they deserved them ? Anyone here is welcome to answer this question

[Blackfrost]

I respect what you are saying. Lets take a Bonus / versus a Raise . Same thing ? Different ? How can you explain these bail out companies getting huge bonuses ? Do you feel they deserved them ? Anyone here is welcome to answer this question

 

I definitely don't think bailout companies should be getting huge bonuses-ever. But if you company is not a bail out company - it's tough question, and really depends on the ethical nature of how you made your money. Many of the wallstreet firms and banks made their money through what I would consider unethical means (i.e. mortgage lending for unqualified applicants, hedgefund manipulation etc).

 

My company makes products that consumers buy, and I'm a much bigger purveyor of keeping bonuses in reasonable ranges, and creating a fund (with the additional money) within the company that is a rainy day fund for times when new products don't do well, and salaries need to get paid during development times when there is no positive revenue stream. That way you cover yourself for X amount of time before needing to layoff. This allows people to keep their jobs during the lean times - depending on the size of the rainy day fund.

 

My business is in the entertainment sector, so there are definitely ups and downs, and people understand that the entertainment business is not overly stable and can result in negative cash flow years, and regular layoffs - if you have back to back products that are not selling well.

 

Ultimately, I prefer a conservative business model that pays comfortably, but not excessively. I'd rather have a stable job for a longer periods of time, then make high bonuses one year, and get laid off the next. Everyone in my industry knows that when they are working, they MUST be responsible with their savings in order to cover the down times when they might not be employed. My rule of thumbs is to have one+ years of salary in the bank at all times, because there is a very high chance of being unemployed every couple years.

[Trimmer]

I have taken raises to a slightly different level...

 

To me an employee has already been paid for their past performance..

To pay someone a raise for what they did in the past and what they were already paid for is mind boggling to me..

 

I believe that a raise is for what that particular employee will do for my company in the future.

 

Show me that that you will make me money in the future based on your past performance and you will get the raise today...

 

Show me that you will be flat or that you will keep the status quo then there isn't a raise coming your way..

 

Harsh.. maybe.. but I'm not in business to keep the status quo..

That's a great philosophy, and I agree generally with your metaphorical approach. But unless you've got a crystal ball that works a whole lot better than mine, just how do you predict (or how does an employee "show you") that a given employee "will make [you] money in the future"? You said it yourself in your next 5 words: "...based on past performance..."

 

So it's a great philosophical approach to consider a raise as motivator/reward for future performance (and technically that's what it is: over the next year you get paid more, so I expect more from you during that period) but realistically, in the world without crystal balls that we live in, isn't your only way of evaluating the merits of that raise, evaluation of past performance, attitude, loyalty, and history with your company?

 

So you say this is harsh, but is it any more than your own personal way of looking at a raise? In other words, does this philosophy make the evaluation process play out in your interactions with your employees any differently than anywhere else? It seems like anywhere, if I give a good employee a raise for "good performance", that comes with an expectation (and a reasonable probability) of continued good performance, and if the good performance is not maintained, then that's not acceptable...

[carhill]

In our at-will state of Kalifornia, I see examples of prospective pay to performance in the way friends manage employees. One in particular is very aggressive about paying above-average wages, both at signing and as regular raises and performance-based pay. The other side is, don't perform to the clearly stated goal and you're gone, quickly. Like he told my stbx once, 'carhill wouldn't want to work for me'. He's right, but that's why we're bf's

[threebyfate]

When I was an employer, the pay structure for salaried admin/operational/technical staff, stood as follows:

1. Annual cost of living increase.
   
2. Bonus incentives for over and above productivity, which was defined by quantifiable results v. an inefficient employee.
   
3. Pay increases based on upward movement.
   
4. DPSP. The more profit, the more each employee shared. Retention incentive.
   

[Rudderless]

As someone who manages over 400 people worldwide, I can assure it is very easy. Every web site captures the IP address used by every poster. So now the chat room knows that someone at XYZ company thinks their manager is an ahole - so now the person posting is acting as a representative of the company and saying that IS a terminatable offense.

 

Well obviously the first bit is true, that you can EASILY capture it. I can put a camera on your desk and log what you each for lunch quite EASILY too, it doesn't mean it's anything else but pointless to do that.

 

Which brings me to the second bit, supposedly you're a representative of the company when you're posting anonymously because someone has your IP adrdress? That makes no sense, since it would be far easier to post anonymously outside of work and include the companies public details. There's no point making an issue out of something which isn't one, that company IP address is not going to be put out into the public domain with any great affect if someone's just whining about their boss.

 

On a final note, I had nada time managing less than 1/5th of the people you manage. I don't see how you would want to or have time to trouble yourself with such information.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Rudderless

[curiousnycgirl]

Well obviously the first bit is true, that you can EASILY capture it. I can put a camera on your desk and log what you each for lunch quite EASILY too, it doesn't mean it's anything else but pointless to do that.

 

Which brings me to the second bit, supposedly you're a representative of the company when you're posting anonymously because someone has your IP adrdress? That makes no sense, since it would be far easier to post anonymously outside of work and include the companies public details. There's no point making an issue out of something which isn't one, that company IP address is not going to be put out into the public domain with any great affect if someone's just whining about their boss.

 

On a final note, I had nada time managing less than 1/5th of the people you manage. I don't see how you would want to or have time to trouble yourself with such information.

 

You missed my points. First yup one could post cameras everywhere, but that would basiclaly require someone watching those cameras all the time, or reviewing them periodicaly - not very cost effective. A software product however is very cheap and fairly reliable.

 

Secondly it is not a question of how YOU define representing our company - it is how the company defines it. My company has posted to our internal website that if you are found to have posted negatively about the company, you will be terminated. They have basically blocked most web surfing, so in our case posting form work is not really an option - however it can and is done.

 

As far as time required to do this - practically zero. I get an email daily detailing the "questionable" email and internet acitivity my team has supposedly engaged in - again because of the terms/words the software was told to flag. Thankfully this has never caused me any issues - however one of my peers ended up having to contact the police and assist in an investigation into child pornography - which was discovered by this software product.

[Rudderless]

Secondly it is not a question of how YOU define representing our company - it is how the company defines it. My company has posted to our internal website that if you are found to have posted negatively about the company, you will be terminated. They have basically blocked most web surfing, so in our case posting form work is not really an option - however it can and is done.

.

Ok, I get your point now, if it's your company policy to set such rules then yes you have to follow them. It's a little alien to me as I'm used to most of these things being down to management's discretion.