Hiring someone who has been fired?

[mem11363]

I was at a fast growing software company for a decade. While there I interviewed about 300 to 400 folks and hired 60-70 or so.

 

Most of the folks I hired did well for us and I think they felt we did well for them.

 

One reason most of these recruits did well was that I had a very keen ear for tone. Certain folks have a happy tone, others a serious tone, and yet others an angry tone. Sometimes that tone was quite subtle, still I could hear it. And I just never hired those folks.

 

LB- you seem angry at your prior employer - angry that you have to do housework (from your other posts) - just angry in general.

 

Also, there was a standard way in which we handled terminations at that company which made it less difficult for folks to get their next job, but it required an amicable parting. Did you have an amicable parting?

 

 

You know I said this before and you basically told me I didn't know what I was talking about - but I'll risk saying it again. You are trying to find a job in a very down economy - it's not going to happen quickly or easily. Every job you apply has G-d only knows how many applicants, most of whom are more qualified than you are (not your fault, just reality). At this point they are willing to earn less money as long as they are earning.

 

So who would you hire? Someone straight out of school for XYZ salary, or someone with several years of experience for the same XYZ salary? The data is out there - these are the facts. Studies show that 7 years after the last down economhy people who had been laid off are STILL not earning as much as they were before the lay off.

 

LB you need to stop take some of the really good advice you've gotten here, stop changing your tactics and stories, and just keep plugging. Oh and you need to thank G-d that you are not carrying a huge debt load AND you have a safety net.

 

I know you are frustrated but you are so much better off than so many people, I think you need a little perspective.

[New Again]

You are listening to people who tell you to go to an interview and say that you've been fired.

 

That's the worst advice I've ever heard.

 

It's actually very good advice.

 

LB, this is a little bit off the PM I sent you.

 

Based on my experience doing what I do, the worst part isn't that you screwed up (whether the screw up was getting fired or getting caught drunk driving or whatever). The primary things that the people we advise consider are

1. Your honesty and integrity, and

2. What did you learn from your f*kc up?

 

Both of these are things that people have been telling you for 4 pages now, so I'm weighing in with them.

 

If you lie, you will be eliminated from consideration for a position.

If you didn't learn anything, didn't accept blame, and overall make us think you're likely to do it again and didn't take it seriously, you will be eliminated from consideration for a position.

[D-Lish]

LB- You are right, social services will NOT spend money for a credit check on you. They will do the usual criminal background check and make you pay for it ;-) lol.

 

Did you work with someone at your other job that you are still in contact with that you could use as a reference? It would be a shame to lose that experience. I myself would avoid saying I was terminated, suggest I was laid off, then have a former co-worker give me a reference. Did you ever liason with anyone in your program (like someone in your community) that you could use as a reference?

 

I think you can find a creative way through it. What do you have to lose by getting creative with your reference and responses (They were downsizing - well they did downsize by one when they let you go).

If admitting you got fired isn't going to get you a job- then what do you have to lose by fudging the truth a bit...the job? You're already losing it by admitting you got fired!

 

I haven't heard one person here say they'd be open to hiring someone who got fired... SO it's time to get creative.

[curiousnycgirl]

I haven't heard one person here say they'd be open to hiring someone who got fired... SO it's time to get creative.

 

I would be and I have

[Lauriebell82]

LB- You are right, social services will NOT spend money for a credit check on you. They will do the usual criminal background check and make you pay for it ;-) lol.

 

Did you work with someone at your other job that you are still in contact with that you could use as a reference? It would be a shame to lose that experience. I myself would avoid saying I was terminated, suggest I was laid off, then have a former co-worker give me a reference. Did you ever liason with anyone in your program (like someone in your community) that you could use as a reference?

 

I think you can find a creative way through it. What do you have to lose by getting creative with your reference and responses (They were downsizing - well they did downsize by one when they let you go).

If admitting you got fired isn't going to get you a job- then what do you have to lose by fudging the truth a bit...the job? You're already losing it by admitting you got fired!

 

I haven't heard one person here say they'd be open to hiring someone who got fired... SO it's time to get creative.

 

If I say I got laid off then when they call my ex employer they can say they would rehire me because it was a layoff. If you get actually terminated for another reason they say they wouldn't rehire me..which I guarantee is what they are saying. My ex boss told my friend that the reason for my leaving is that I didn't meet standards. That doesn't sound like I got laid off.

 

mem: what is amicable parting?

[D-Lish]

But don't you include references on your resume- specifically those people you tell your future employer it's okay to call?

 

I left one group home to go to another when I worked in social services because I hated my new boss and she hated me. I gave my new employer our resident psychiatrist as my reference for that position. She gave me a glowing reference- but my actual boss would have sabotaged me.

[Lauriebell82]

But don't you include references on your resume- specifically those people you tell your future employer it's okay to call?

 

I left one group home to go to another when I worked in social services because I hated my new boss and she hated me. I gave my new employer our resident psychiatrist as my reference for that position. She gave me a glowing reference- but my actual boss would have sabotaged me.

 

Yes, I do include coworkers from my job as references. I could ask them to contact that person but they always want to contact the supervisor. On the application it asks to list that person as the contact. Even if I didn't list a supervisor's name they could call them and ask who LB's immediate supervisor is. I would essentially have to ask my coworker to lie and say that they were my supervisor.

 

I could always ask them to contact my work reference instead of my supervisor but that may look fishy. But then they could always just do it anyway. I could tell them to not contact my employer (supervisor) but again that looks fishy as well.

[amerikajin]

I made mistakes at my job, but really I don't think I deserved to get fired. Sorry, that's the way I feel. I don't care WHAT anyone thinks about that (on here anyway) and you can give me all the flack you want but I won't feel any differently.

 

I've been on both sides of the interviewing desk, and I was also "right sized" once, so I can see this from both angles here.

 

Always go into an interview seeing things from the employer's point of view. Chances are, they don't know you or anything about you. All they know is the resume and application you've handed them - that's it. When you enter into an interview situation, you have absolutely no more credibility than the next guy. Moreover, employers have probably been burned at least once by someone they thought that they could take a chance on, only to find out that there was more to the story that they should have seen from the start.

 

Just like you've lived and learned, they have too. And what their gut tells them is this:

 

1) hiring someone who's been fired is risky -- it's possible, but they have to have some really good reason to overlook the fact that you've been fired;

 

2) when you start saying things like, "It wasn't my fault", you're as good as done. Because whether it's true or not, remember, they don't know you: if they pick up the phone call, it's your word against your past employer's, and they will automatically feel a little closer to your employer because they share the same perspective. It's like a fraternity.

 

It's admirable that you're disclosing the fact that you were let go: you should not change that approach and you are not doing the right thing by taking that off of your resume - they will find out anyway, so you may as well come clean. The right way to handle this is to swallow some of your pride and just tell the truth and put the best, most credible spin on it. Tell them, "Yeah, I was let go." You could probably tell them that you learned something from the experience, although I am not sure that's entirely necessary. You can just say that "It didn't work out. I did the best I could, but it didn't work out. I respect their decision." If they ask if you learned anything, then think of one thing that you learned from it. Think of something profound. Think of one thing that you wish you would have done better in your position (better communication, being more cooperative, etc.).

 

But remember, they don't know you. Moreover, they don't owe you anything. They've done you a favor even inviting you to the interview. Treat the opportunity with the respect that it deserves.

[D-Lish]

I would be and I have

 

Well that's good news for her to hear.

I haven't run across someone saying they were terminated when interviewing. I don't think I would hire them... But can't say for sure.

 

Yes, I do include coworkers from my job as references. I could ask them to contact that person but they always want to contact the supervisor. On the application it asks to list that person as the contact. Even if I didn't list a supervisor's name they could call them and ask who LB's immediate supervisor is. I would essentially have to ask my coworker to lie and say that they were my supervisor.

 

I could always ask them to contact my work reference instead of my supervisor but that may look fishy. But then they could always just do it anyway. I could tell them to not contact my employer (supervisor) but again that looks fishy as well.

 

I see. Maybe our privacy laws or procedures are different in Canada.

When I submit references- I've never had anyone call outside those references.

 

Often, when I am interviewing- I am asked not to call their current employer- but that is because our business is competetive, and I can't call the person they are working for when they haven't told them they are looking to leave- that would be grounds for their termination. But it's accepted in my business- managers and merchandisers and looking to flip all the time.

[amerikajin]

I would be and I have

 

Oh I agree with this. If I were currently in a position to hire, I would not rule out someone who has been fired before. However, there's one very important thing to keep in mind: I would want to know the person and the circumstances before hiring them. The problem is that many people just send resumes and come in off the street for an interview and they come to an interviewer in the position of having been laid off. I would hire someone who's been canned before, but I would have serious doubts about someone I don't know, particularly if I didn't know their references either. That's about as reliable as internet dating.

 

I would suggest that the OP and anyone in her position start networking, networking and networking. Get out there on your days off and start introducing yourself to people in non-interview situations. Also, see if your friends know people and are willing to put in a good word. Friends are good because they know you *and* they know the person you might be interviewing with. The personal connection is the way to go. Just doing random applying and interviewing though probably has a low rate of return.

[allina]

I made mistakes at my job, but really I don't think I deserved to get fired. Sorry, that's the way I feel. I don't care WHAT anyone thinks about that

 

But you SHOULD care because it's ruining your career!

 

 

1. I told a client where I went to high school: they said I "disclosed too much to clients." So I didn't tell any client anything else about myself.

 

2. I was punching in 2 minutes late sometimes, they said my attendence was bad. So I started coming in 10 minutes early everyday from the day I got put back on probation.

 

3. I ran down the hall once because I was late for a group and they said I had anxiety issues. So I tried to remain calm and if I did get anxious/stressed out I went in my office to calm down.

 

4. The way my employers phrase feedback is mainly with insults. It is not constructive. So I used to get defensive. I tried to combat that by accepting feedback and instead saying "yeah, they might be true, how might I do that differently?"

 

 

Here you go LB, these ARE the reasons why you were fired! I cannot grasp why you keep claiming that you have no idea why you were fired, you listed the reasons right there!

 

From your employers point of view I would bet anything that he would describe you as someone who acted unprofessionally multiple times, was often late and get very defensive when there issues were addressed.

 

I'm not trying to be hurtful, I just want this to get through to you because I feel like you are f*cking yourself over (for lack of a better word).

 

And again, I URGE you to NOT take your last job off of your resume and lie at interviews. Even if you somehow land a job doing that, you will be found out, this is a sure thing. These clinics are not huge and the professional community always has ties throughout different companies/organizations.

 

To make matters worse you are in an industry that requires a high level of responsibility and trust, this isn't some job at TGI Fridays, counselors are held to high standards. Once your lie is discovered you will likely be fired again.

 

Then your job hunt will really be difficult!

[Lauriebell82]

But you SHOULD care because it's ruining your career!

 

 

 

Here you go LB, these ARE the reasons why you were fired! I cannot grasp why you keep claiming that you have no idea why you were fired, you listed the reasons right there!

 

From your employers point of view I would bet anything that he would describe you as someone who acted unprofessionally multiple times, was often late and get very defensive when there issues were addressed.

 

I'm not trying to be hurtful, I just want this to get through to you because I feel like you are f*cking yourself over (for lack of a better word).

 

And again, I URGE you to NOT take your last job off of your resume and lie at interviews. Even if you somehow land a job doing that, you will be found out, this is a sure thing. These clinics are not huge and the professional community always has ties throughout different companies/organizations.

 

To make matters worse you are in an industry that requires a high level of responsibility and trust, this isn't some job at TGI Fridays, counselors are held to high standards. Once your lie is discovered you will likely be fired again.

 

Then your job hunt will really be difficult!

 

You seem to be missing my point. Those are things I was put on probation for. BUT I fixed them ALL and was given good feedback. So I'm unsure why I was STILL fired 4 months after they had told me about these things and after I had fixed them (which they said they noticed). This is what I do not understand. But I actually did learn from them and will NOT be doing any of them at my next job. I have said this at interviews, that I have made mistakes as a new counselor but learned.

 

Maybe in other industries it can be found out that you did not put a job on your resume, but in social services it is rare. They do not have money or time to do extensive background checks. Most require you to get 3 clearances and you have to get them/pay for them yourself. I left a job off my resume from college in which I worked as an assistant for 4 months. I quit the job but left it off my resume because it was short term and wasn't related to counseling. No employer that has hired me since has found out about the job or that I worked at it.

 

Really, I get what you guys are saying but in today's economy I just don't think anybody is going to risk hiring someone who was fired. Maybe there is someone out there somewhere but I've already interviewed for 12 different companies and none have hired me. So that tells me something...

[allina]

You seem to be missing my point. Those are things I was put on probation for. BUT I fixed them ALL and was given good feedback. So I'm unsure why I was STILL fired 4 months after they had told me about these things and after I had fixed them (which they said they noticed). This is what I do not understand. But I actually did learn from them and will NOT be doing any of them at my next job. I have said this at interviews, that I have made mistakes as a new counselor but learned.

 

No, I got that. But to me, it's clear that by that time it just wasn't good enough and they decided that they would be better off with someone else.

 

 

Maybe in other industries it can be found out that you did not put a job on your resume, but in social services it is rare. They do not have money or time to do extensive background checks. Most require you to get 3 clearances and you have to get them/pay for them yourself.

 

I wasn't referring to any sort of background checks. I'm saying is that people within an industry run in to each other and know each other, especially locally.

 

A person who runs a rehab clinic in PA knows others that are in that line of work. Plus, there are seminars, lectures, grant meetings, fund raisers, etc.

 

This is not a risk worth taking.

 

On a side note, is there any way you could get a letter of recommendation from a professor in the field? If so, I strongly recommend it.

[Lauriebell82]

No, I got that. But to me, it's clear that by that time it just wasn't good enough and they decided that they would be better off with someone else.

 

Yeah, you are probably right about that. Like I said, I did learn things NOT to do at my next job.

 

 

I wasn't referring to any sort of background checks. I'm saying is that people within an industry run in to each other and know each other, especially locally.

 

A person who runs a rehab clinic in PA knows others that are in that line of work. Plus, there are seminars, lectures, grant meetings, fund raisers, etc.

 

This is not a risk worth taking.

 

On a side note, is there any way you could get a letter of recommendation from a professor in the field? If so, I strongly recommend it.

 

Yeah, it's a possibly that people could talk and someone could say I worked there...

 

I do have one of my graduate professors listed as one of my references. He said nobody has called him yet. I actually don't even think that any of these people have bothered to check my references after calling my ex employer...

[New Again]

Yeah, it's a possibly that people could talk and someone could say I worked there...

 

I do have one of my graduate professors listed as one of my references. He said nobody has called him yet. I actually don't even think that any of these people have bothered to check my references after calling my ex employer...

 

When you have an interview somewhere, ask your references to call them directly - get the card of the person who interviewed you, and pass his/her name and contact info onto your references/your professor and have him take the initiative to contact them and say how fantastic you are.

[Pink Cupcakes]

I still think you should just leave it off your resume. You could just look at that as your personal learning experience, and now you are getting your first real job.

Like you said, no one's hiring you now, so try it leaving off the job.

Just put the same references you used to get your job at your last place.

[SadandConfusedWA]

LB,

 

Obivously saying that you got fired didn't work out for you so it's time to get creative. I would try and make my resume look like I was STILL working at the last place of employment but am looking to leave. Then they can't call your "current" boss for a check. This would have worked out much better though if you did it earlier with less time gap. Also, as soon as you were put on probation you should have started looking for another job while simulataniously improving your performance at the current job. You need to listen to actions vs words (being put on probation = VERY bad sign, someone telling you that you are doing well = meaningless). Worst case scenario is that you get found out but hey, you are obviously not getting any jobs by telling the truth.

 

Also, all the managers or people that hire staff on LS are never going to give you the advice of lying. Why? Because they tend to put themselves in your employer's position and they would absolutely hate to be deceived. Of course they would want you to give them full information so that they can discard you and choose a more suitable candidate (i.e. one that wasn't fired).

 

Really, I would try different approaches.

[allina]

Also, all the managers or people that hire staff on LS are never going to give you the advice of lying. Why? Because they tend to put themselves in your employer's position and they would absolutely hate to be deceived. Of course they would want you to give them full information so that they can discard you and choose a more suitable candidate (i.e. one that wasn't fired).

 

Really, I would try different approaches.

 

This is really BAD advice, you are also wrong. The reason I do not want her to lie is because she WILL BE found out and very likely fired again for the lie. With things like this the truth always comes out and if she loses the two jobs she has ever had in her field it will be extremely difficult to get hired anywhere.

[Trimmer]

This is really BAD advice, you are also wrong. The reason I do not want her to lie is because she WILL BE found out and very likely fired again for the lie. With things like this the truth always comes out and if she loses the two jobs she has ever had in her field it will be extremely difficult to get hired anywhere.

I agree - if the field she's working in does background checks, and is concerned with meeting standards of professionalism, trust, responsibility, judgement, etc. then you're just tying off a rope that will eventually hang you. Leaving out a pertinent prior position is a serious enough concern, but actually misrepresenting something (like indicating you still work there so they won't check...) will just scream "bad judgement, do not trust" once it is found out - which there's a decent chance it will. Then things will be even worse.

[Star Gazer]

There was no warning I was to be fired....

 

That doesn't make sense when you then say this:

 

Reasons I was put on probatation...

 

Probation is a clear sign that you're in real danger of getting fired.

[Lauriebell82]

Probation is a clear sign that you're in real danger of getting fired.

 

Yeah I know, that's what I thought too! After it happened I sat down with my supervisor and asked him if my job was in danger and was going to get fired. He said no, that I was lightyears away from being fired. I asked why he put me back on probation then and he said, "oh it's just so you can improve." It didn't make much sense to me but I was worried. So I worked my butt off to improve upon the things they told me so I WOULDN'T get fired. I asked my supervisors repeatedly during my probation how I was doing and if my job was in danger. They told me no, that I was doing well.

 

I actually did start looking for a new job after being put on probation but did not get any call backs for interviews at the time unfortunately.

 

It did cross my mind to say I still work at my current job but that is a very risky lie, moreso then leaving it off my resume. That's very unethical to do also, it's not unethical to leave a job off your resume. People do that all the time.

[Lizzie60]

LB,

 

Obivously saying that you got fired didn't work out for you so it's time to get creative. I would try and make my resume look like I was STILL working at the last place of employment but am looking to leave. Then they can't call your "current" boss for a check. This would have worked out much better though if you did it earlier with less time gap. Also, as soon as you were put on probation you should have started looking for another job while simulataniously improving your performance at the current job. You need to listen to actions vs words (being put on probation = VERY bad sign, someone telling you that you are doing well = meaningless). Worst case scenario is that you get found out but hey, you are obviously not getting any jobs by telling the truth.

 

Also, all the managers or people that hire staff on LS are never going to give you the advice of lying. Why? Because they tend to put themselves in your employer's position and they would absolutely hate to be deceived. Of course they would want you to give them full information so that they can discard you and choose a more suitable candidate (i.e. one that wasn't fired).

 

Really, I would try different approaches.

 

 

I agree with you... Truth will not get her a job.. I think this is a good scenario.. has a job but looking for something more challenging.

 

My best female friend had a career (now retired) based on lies she told at the interview... she said she had experience in supervising staff (or something similar)... she got the job.. she had never supervised anyone.. ... she had a great career...

 

I know other people who lied and got good jobs...

 

Don,t worry.. just be well prepared.. like Sad said.. you don't have a job anyway.. you got nothing to lose..

 

[Lauriebell82]

I agree with you... Truth will not get her a job.. I think this is a good scenario.. has a job but looking for something more challenging.

 

My best female friend had a career (now retired) based on lies she told at the interview... she said she had experience in supervising staff (or something similar)... she got the job.. she had never supervised anyone.. ... she had a great career...

 

I know other people who lied and got good jobs...

 

Don,t worry.. just be well prepared.. like Sad said.. you don't have a job anyway.. you got nothing to lose..

 

 

I know I have nothing to lose but that's a pretty big lie. The other problem is that most of the places I have applied now I have either left it off my resume or put on there an end date for leaving my job. So they might be able to look up my resume and see that I had an end date and now I don't. That just makes me nervous...

[amerikajin]

I know I have nothing to lose but that's a pretty big lie. The other problem is that most of the places I have applied now I have either left it off my resume or put on there an end date for leaving my job. So they might be able to look up my resume and see that I had an end date and now I don't. That just makes me nervous...

 

Again, I think you're making a big mistake by doctoring your employment history. This has nothing to do with my sympathizing with management; it's just that lying is something that will be exposed later and then you might have to explain why you've been terminated from two jobs in a row.

 

I don't think that the fact that you were terminated is the reason you're not getting the jobs. I think it's that when you explain your situation, you might be coming off as defensive about your termination. I understand that you believe you were let go unfairly but getting a job and keeping it really has nothing to do with fair or unfair. You have to be focused and objective. The fact is, employers are going to be a little suspicious of someone who has been terminated; however, you can overcome that suspicion if you handle it the right way. Interviewees who can find one thing -- just one thing -- that they learned from their last experience and put a positive spin on it can overcome the skepticism of any interviewer. However, if you say "It wasn't my fault" or "I really disagreed with them, I thought they handled it unprofessionally"...then you're going to be seen as someone who brings negative energy into the office. That's not the kind of person they're looking for.

[Lauriebell82]

Again, I think you're making a big mistake by doctoring your employment history. This has nothing to do with my sympathizing with management; it's just that lying is something that will be exposed later and then you might have to explain why you've been terminated from two jobs in a row.

 

I don't think that the fact that you were terminated is the reason you're not getting the jobs. I think it's that when you explain your situation, you might be coming off as defensive about your termination. I understand that you believe you were let go unfairly but getting a job and keeping it really has nothing to do with fair or unfair. You have to be focused and objective. The fact is, employers are going to be a little suspicious of someone who has been terminated; however, you can overcome that suspicion if you handle it the right way. Interviewees who can find one thing -- just one thing -- that they learned from their last experience and put a positive spin on it can overcome the skepticism of any interviewer. However, if you say "It wasn't my fault" or "I really disagreed with them, I thought they handled it unprofessionally"...then you're going to be seen as someone who brings negative energy into the office. That's not the kind of person they're looking for.

 

Yeah I understand where you are coming from. I have never said in an interview though that "it wasn't my fault" or that "I disagreed with their decision." Actually I have said the opposite, that I learned from the experience and understand what I could have done differently. I try to say it as positively as I can.

 

Do you have a suggestion on what to say?