Lets actually pick apart what the problem is with the dating market

[stillafool]

Ladies before you rant in response to this, answer one question please. On the average U.S. woman's (NOT your) next first date, if her date wants to go dutch, will she a) accept it cheerfully as a sign that he considers her an equal? or b) come here and make a thread about how "cheap" her last date was? Be honest. And no one wants to hear about how non-materialistic YOU are, or how many penniless waifs YOU have dated, as those things are utterly irrelevant.

 

 

I really wouldn't mind going dutch at all on a first date. As a matter of fact I would prefer it because if we didn't have a good time I don't feel it would be fair that either of us had to pay.

[meerkat stew]

But when someone makes a statement like "...women rationalize their blunt craving for money..." it makes us all sound like we're out here, rubbing our greedy little paws together, all scrapping over the guy with the biggest bank account.

 

As for myself, all I care about is that a guy not make my financial situation WORSE than before I met him.

 

Lessons for women:

 

1. Take accountability. OWN it, revel in your imperfections and inconsistencies. We all have them. When we see you doing that, we begin to -trust- you more. We begin to listen to the things that come out of your mouths and take you seriously as opposed to rolling our eyes at the waves and waves of rationalizations and denials of any accountability whatsoever.

 

2. (Hi donnamaybe ) STOP INTERNALIZING EVERY LITTLE THING. Every complaint men have about women, and vice versa, is not all about YOU, and whether YOU are a certain way. I had 5 GFs in the last two years. 3 were gold-diggers, two were not. TWO WERE NOT. Does the fact that we know MANY women are not a certain way make it less odious when they turn out to actually be that way? NO! Am I disallowed from venting about the three gold-diggers merely because two were not so? NO. When seeing someone complain about why "women are such and such," or why "men are such and such," realize that they is no implicit "ALL" in front of the complaint. Men seem to do this naturally. Women overinternalize and personalize gender issues way too much.

 

I sit and listen to my female friends and female relatives literally RAGE about women more vehemently than I ever hear men doing (we generally don't sit around and talk about women as a gender, there are just more interesting topics), making HUGE generalizations. Women are ironically enough the most extreme misogynists in my social network, yet equally ironically, despite the fact that they sit around among themselves and bash women mercilessly as a hobby, when men do it, "ALERT THE MEDIA! SOME MAN IS GENERALIZING WOMEN AGAIN!" "Let me rush to disprove him by demonstrating that I am not that way, thus no other women are either!"

 

3. Admit that men have a right to vent about their legitimate beefs with the opposite sex, as you do, we just don't do it driving around all day with a cellphone attached to our ear while causing traffic accidents like you do! We do it here on the net DROP THE PRIVILEGED, HOLIER THAN THOU, "nahnah you are a sexist and I am not" attitude. We see right through it.

Edited December 16, 2009 by meerkat stew

[silic0ntoad]

Lessons for women:

 

1. Take accountability. OWN it, revel in your imperfections and inconsistencies. We all have them. When we see you doing that, we begin to -trust- you more. We begin to listen to the things that come out of your mouths and take you seriously as opposed to rolling our eyes at the waves and waves of rationalizations and denials of any accountability whatsoever.

 

2. (Hi donnamaybe ) STOP INTERNALIZING EVERY LITTLE THING. Every complaint men have about women, and vice versa, is not all about YOU, and whether YOU are a certain way. I had 5 GFs in the last two years. 3 were gold-diggers, two were not. TWO WERE NOT. Does the fact that we know MANY women are not a certain way make it less odious when they turn out to actually be that way? NO! Am I disallowed from venting about the three gold-diggers merely because two were not so? NO. When seeing someone complain about why "women are such and such," or why "men are such and such," realize that they is no implicit "ALL" in front of the complaint. Men seem to do this naturally. Women overinternalize and personalize gender issues way too much.

 

I sit and listen to my female friends and female relatives literally RAGE about women more vehemently than I ever hear men doing (we generally don't sit around and talk about women as a gender, there are just more interesting topics), making HUGE generalizations. Women are ironically enough the most extreme misogynists in my social network, yet equally ironically, despite the fact that they sit around among themselves and bash women mercilessly as a hobby, when men do it, "ALERT THE MEDIA! SOME MAN IS GENERALIZING WOMEN AGAIN!" "Let me rush to disprove him by demonstrating that I am not that way, thus no other women are either!"

 

3. Admit that men have a right to vent about their legitimate beefs with the opposite sex, as you do, we just don't do it driving around all day with a cellphone attached to our ear while causing traffic accidents like you do! We do it here on the net DROP THE PRIVILEGED, HOLIER THAN THOU, "nahnah you are a sexist and I am not" attitude. We see right through it.

 

Owned!

 

Meerkat, I am officially a fan!

[donnamaybe]

Lessons for women:

 

1. Take accountability. OWN it, revel in your imperfections and inconsistencies. We all have them. When we see you doing that, we begin to -trust- you more. We begin to listen to the things that come out of your mouths and take you seriously as opposed to rolling our eyes at the waves and waves of rationalizations.

 

2. (Hi donnamaybe ) STOP INTERNALIZING EVERY LITTLE THING. Every complaint men have about women, and vice versa, is not all about YOU, and whether YOU are a certain way. I had 5 GFs in the last two years. 3 were gold-diggers, two were not. TWO WERE NOT. Does the fact that we know MANY women are not a certain way make it less odious when they turn out to actually be that way? NO! Am I disallowed from venting about the three gold-diggers merely because two were not so? NO. When seeing someone complain about why "women are such and such," or why "men are such and such," realize that they is no implicit "ALL" in front of the complaint. Men seem to do this naturally. Women overinternalize and personalize gender issues way too much.

 

I sit and listen to my female friends and female relatives literally RAGE about women more vehemently than I ever hear men doing (we generally don't sit around and talk about women as a gender, there are just more interesting topics), making HUGE generalizations. Women are ironically enough the most extreme misogynists in my social network, yet equally ironically, despite the fact that they sit around among themselves and bash women mercilessly as a hobby, when men do it, "ALERT THE MEDIA! SOME MAN IS GENERALIZING WOMEN AGAIN!" "Let me rush to disprove him by demonstrating that I am not that way, thus no other women are either!"

 

3. Admit that men have a right to vent about their legitimate beefs with the opposite sex, as you do, we just don't do it driving around all day with a cellphone attached to our ear while causing traffic accidents like you do! DROP THE PRIVILEGED, HOLIER THAN THOU, "nahnah you are a sexist and I am not" attitude. We see right through it.

 

You obviously missed the point. I saw one, and still do (and not necessarily written ).

 

If you want to rant about three women, then rant about the three women in question. HOWEVER, when you make a blanket statement that "women (not SOME women, but just "women") rationalize their blunt craving for money" then YOU NEED TO OWN THAT YOU ARE MAKING A BLANKET STATEMENT ABOUT ALL WOMEN. JUST OWN IT!

 

If I want to make a statment about a certain man, such as my dead beat dad of an ex, I'll make the point that I am talking about HIM. Did I say "ex-husbands with children are never paying their child support"? No. I didn't. I said it was my EX. Not "men."

 

If you can't see the difference, then you will forever have problems relating with human beings.

[betamanlet]

Lessons for women:

 

1. Take accountability. OWN it, revel in your imperfections and inconsistencies. We all have them. When we see you doing that, we begin to -trust- you more. We begin to listen to the things that come out of your mouths and take you seriously as opposed to rolling our eyes at the waves and waves of rationalizations and denials of any accountability whatsoever.

 

2. (Hi donnamaybe ) STOP INTERNALIZING EVERY LITTLE THING. Every complaint men have about women, and vice versa, is not all about YOU, and whether YOU are a certain way. I had 5 GFs in the last two years. 3 were gold-diggers, two were not. TWO WERE NOT. Does the fact that we know MANY women are not a certain way make it less odious when they turn out to actually be that way? NO! Am I disallowed from venting about the three gold-diggers merely because two were not so? NO. When seeing someone complain about why "women are such and such," or why "men are such and such," realize that they is no implicit "ALL" in front of the complaint. Men seem to do this naturally. Women overinternalize and personalize gender issues way too much.

 

I sit and listen to my female friends and female relatives literally RAGE about women more vehemently than I ever hear men doing (we generally don't sit around and talk about women as a gender, there are just more interesting topics), making HUGE generalizations. Women are ironically enough the most extreme misogynists in my social network, yet equally ironically, despite the fact that they sit around among themselves and bash women mercilessly as a hobby, when men do it, "ALERT THE MEDIA! SOME MAN IS GENERALIZING WOMEN AGAIN!" "Let me rush to disprove him by demonstrating that I am not that way, thus no other women are either!"

 

3. Admit that men have a right to vent about their legitimate beefs with the opposite sex, as you do, we just don't do it driving around all day with a cellphone attached to our ear while causing traffic accidents like you do! We do it here on the net DROP THE PRIVILEGED, HOLIER THAN THOU, "nahnah you are a sexist and I am not" attitude. We see right through it.

 

Wow, you consistenly make really great points.

[paddington bear]

sorry for butting in again...but...this paying for dates thing...and indeed the whole dating culture in the States seems very rule-based, and then people get annoyed with having to adhere to the rules, or if these unspoken rules are broken.

 

I'm living in Germany right now - I'd fall over in shock if a guy paid for a date, it's just not done here, people always go dutch - I met an American guy here who said he was cleaning up with the ladies, because he actually asked girls on dates (not really done here either) and because he paid for the meal or whatever - and that was really appreciated and he was seen as a gentleman (while being anything but) as it was something out of the ordinary for these women and not an expectation...

 

this is not to say that dating life is perfect in Europe either, same problems here too in confusion with expectations of what men and women are and how to behave etc.

 

ok, I'll shut up now, promise.

[betamanlet]

sorry for butting in again...but...this paying for dates thing...and indeed the whole dating culture in the States seems very rule-based, and then people get annoyed with having to adhere to the rules, or if these unspoken rules are broken.

 

I'm living in Germany right now - I'd fall over in shock if a guy paid for a date, it's just not done here, people always go dutch - I met an American guy here who said he was cleaning up with the ladies, because he actually asked girls on dates (not really done here either) and because he paid for the meal or whatever - and that was really appreciated and he was seen as a gentleman (while being anything but) as it was something out of the ordinary for these women and not an expectation...

 

this is not to say that dating life is perfect in Europe either, same problems here too in confusion with expectations of what men and women are and how to behave etc.

 

ok, I'll shut up now, promise.

 

I went on some dates when I lived in Berlin, I was super poor, but I always paid there.

[donnamaybe]

Wow, you consistenly make really great points.

 

Aren't you one of the other guys who can't get a date? And you listen to advice from guys like this? Maybe that's the problem.

[silic0ntoad]

Blanket statements inherently include some portion of truth, just as do generalizations.

 

In my personal experiences,I would say the MAJORITY of women I don't go on a 2nd date with ask me about income on the first date. You can be SUPER hot and ask - I'll still greatfully decline a second date. The rest don't work out for a variety of reasons, but in my circle of friends, it is more common now to hear "so, how much do you make?" on a first date then "So, what do you do?"

[silic0ntoad]

Aren't you one of the other guys who can't get a date? And you listen to advice from guys like this? Maybe that's the problem.

 

 

Maybe he can't get a date because he is making less than 5 figures? lolz.

 

I can get dates. Easily. I go on dates frequently. But I do agree with most of the points Meerkat has made.

[betamanlet]

Aren't you one of the other guys who can't get a date? And you listen to advice from guys like this? Maybe that's the problem.

The only guys I even know that get dates are "players", the ones who FnC chicks, the guys women complain about, yet go for, constantly. Everyone else, like me, who actually wanted a stable, LTR, is constantly dateless.

[donnamaybe]

Blanket statements inherently include some portion of truth, just as do generalizations.

 

In my personal experiences,I would say the MAJORITY of women I don't go on a 2nd date with ask me about income on the first date. You can be SUPER hot and ask - I'll still greatfully decline a second date. The rest don't work out for a variety of reasons, but in my circle of friends, it is more common now to hear "so, how much do you make?" on a first date then "So, what do you do?"

 

OMG, what KIND of women are you dating?! ISH!

 

I don't blame you for not wanting a second go round with 'em.

[donnamaybe]

Blanket statements inherently include some portion of truth, just as do generalizations.

 

As for this, yes. That's true - for SOME people. But when someone says "women..." and not "some of the women I've met..." that implies ALL women.

[donnamaybe]

Maybe he can't get a date because he is making less than 5 figures? lolz.

 

I can get dates. Easily. I go on dates frequently. But I do agree with most of the points Meerkat has made.

 

Is it possible to have a job and make less than 5 figures?

[Sam Spade]

Aren't you one of the other guys who can't get a date? And you listen to advice from guys like this? Maybe that's the problem.

 

I did pretty well online dating in terms of # of dates, and currently have a good gf and still agree with 80% of what has been said. So...

 

Lack of accountability is the SINGLE biggest complaint and issue I take with girls.

 

My own gf has many of the shortcomings I see discussed here, but at least when she screws up she knows it's her fault, so I respect that.

At the same time, I have plenty of horror stories fro my own previous and my friends' current relationships where women easily rationalize away most heinous and disrespectful acts (cheating included). It's never their fault! Nobody else can "understand" the hardships and the problems in their lives!

 

Anybody who implicitly operates from a position "I'm always right" and "i'm better than you" (which is most women), should not be surprised at the backlash. As merkat_stew says - we are not idiots....

[silic0ntoad]

OMG, what KIND of women are you dating?! ISH!

 

I don't blame you for not wanting a second go round with 'em.

 

Yeah. IDK, I thought they were normal women. If this is normal, I'm moving to Norway. To hell with it.

 

TBH, I've dated a vast spectrum of girls.... But alot of them, unfortunately, seem to be like this. Maybe it's demographic, IDK, I am in the Lehigh Valley...

[D-Jam]

I think guys need to stop equating women who ask them what they do as "gold digger".

 

Come on...we work so much, what else can someone ask about you? Believe me, I have hobbies, interests, and feelings, but in reality with a new person...my work is a safe thing to ask.

 

PLUS...not every woman who asks is looking for a sugar daddy. Perhaps they're more looking for Mr Stability. We men do it too (and if you don't, you should). Lord knows I don't want to get involved with a woman who can't financially take care of herself. Women have a right to expect the same.

 

Maybe it's not the hope of a meal ticket so she could crank out some kids and then sit at home...maybe she just doesn't want to end up married to a guy sitting on the couch playing Xbox while she's out working and paying the bills.

 

The insecurity is insane here and on other boards.

[donnamaybe]

I did pretty well online dating in terms of # of dates, and currently have a good gf and still agree with 80% of what has been said. So...

 

Lack of accountability is the SINGLE biggest complaint and issue I take with girls.

 

My own gf has many of the shortcomings I see discussed here, but at least when she screws up she knows it's her fault, so I respect that.

At the same time, I have plenty of horror stories fro my own previous and my friends' current relationships where women easily rationalize away most heinous and disrespectful acts (cheating included). It's never their fault! Nobody else can "understand" the hardships and the problems in their lives!

 

Anybody who implicitly operates from a position "I'm always right" and "i'm better than you" (which is most women), should not be surprised at the backlash. As merkat_stew says - we are not idiots....

 

Hey, I've met people like that - both women AND men. And no - I'm no idiot either. That type is quickly ushered out of my life and my circle of friends. Well, to be honest, I have a long time girlfriend who is kinda like that, but she has very good qualities too. We try to take the bad with the good, because there is SO much good. Here's an example of what she does: Her H is a non-smoker, but he loves a good stereo system. She's a smoker and doesn't care for it when he wants to air out his speakers, which isn't often. So - she has relegated his stereo playing to the basement. It's a nice basement, mind you, but that's where he has his little sanctuary. BUT - and this is where it gets ugly - she doesn't want to smoke upstairs and she doesn't want to have to go outside, so when she wants to smoke, she stinks up his sanctuary. NOT FAIR!

[silic0ntoad]

I don't care if you ask me what I do. But asking me what I am paid on the first date is not only uncalled for, it's rude and it's callous.

[donnamaybe]

I don't care if you ask me what I do. But asking me what I am paid on the first date is not only uncalled for, it's rude and it's callous.

 

I absolutely agree. Actually, there have been times when I wanted to ask a guy what he does for a living simply because I'm trying to get to know him, but I'm aware that some guys might take that as me fishing for info on his paycheck, so I was wary of asking.

[Stockalone]

I'm living in Germany right now - I'd fall over in shock if a guy paid for a date, it's just not done here, people always go dutch

 

Generally speaking, you are correct. But there are men who pay.

 

 

I met an American guy here who said he was cleaning up with the ladies, because he actually asked girls on dates (not really done here either) and because he paid for the meal or whatever

 

I can't say I agree with that. But I only know about "American dating rituals" from what I have been told and what I've read.

 

But it's funny that you should say that. I used to work with someone from the UK who went to school in the US and he found it very difficult to date in Germany.

 

 

and that was really appreciated and he was seen as a gentleman (while being anything but) as it was something out of the ordinary for these women and not an expectation...

 

That is true. They don't expect the man to pay. In my experience, almost all women will offer to go dutch, even if the man doesn't mind paying.

 

Some are not comfortable with the man paying for all expenses, and prefer to contribute something. Pay for dessert, pay for the snacks when you go to the movies, things like that.

 

And there are others who will even be insulted if you decline their offer to go dutch. They feel like you patronize them or they don't want to owe you.

[silic0ntoad]

I absolutely agree. Actually, there have been times when I wanted to ask a guy what he does for a living simply because I'm trying to get to know him, but I'm aware that some guys might take that as me fishing for info on his paycheck, so I was wary of asking.

 

Right? IDK, I ask women all the time. Although I don't ask what they do or make, I ask "So what do you do with yourself?" It's more innocent I think and I am totally not materialistic. All I need is a fishing pole, my xbox, Call of Duty, a pck of smokes, and I am good. Don't need a BMW or a mansion.

 

But these girls specifically asked how much I make a year.

 

Like, who the **** are you? Liza Minelli? GTFO.

[stillafool]

You obviously missed the point. I saw one, and still do (and not necessarily written ).

 

If you want to rant about three women, then rant about the three women in question. HOWEVER, when you make a blanket statement that "women (not SOME women, but just "women") rationalize their blunt craving for money" then YOU NEED TO OWN THAT YOU ARE MAKING A BLANKET STATEMENT ABOUT ALL WOMEN. JUST OWN IT!

 

If I want to make a statment about a certain man, such as my dead beat dad of an ex, I'll make the point that I am talking about HIM. Did I say "ex-husbands with children are never paying their child support"? No. I didn't. I said it was my EX. Not "men."

 

If you can't see the difference, then you will forever have problems relating with human beings.

 

 

Excellent point! What kills me is men say women are "too emotional" but I find that more true of some of the male posters here. Some men have been so bruised by the "social network" they think that all women are the same. Does it ever occur to them to change "networks"?

[meerkat stew]

HOWEVER, when you make a blanket statement that "women (not SOME women, but just "women") rationalize their blunt craving for money" then YOU NEED TO OWN THAT YOU ARE MAKING A BLANKET STATEMENT ABOUT ALL WOMEN. JUST OWN IT!

 

Fair enough, here's a meerkat decoder ring:

 

Imagine a bellcurve. Cut the left and right standard deviations off of either side of the curve. What remains looks like a "bullet curve" and represents about 70% of what's "out there." When I make a statement about fondue, macrame, women, Serbian macroeconomic policy or wing nuts that doesn't begin with "all," "some," "no," etc., Just assume I'm talking about that "bullet" curve.

 

BTW that's a pretty good way to decode anyone's post on the internetz who is too lazy (or in my case too high on painkillers) to type out qualifiers. Much more accurate and less anxiety inducing than assuming every nut on the net is adding an invisible "all" before their admittedly massive generalizations. Peace

[meerkat stew]

Aren't you one of the other guys who can't get a date? And you listen to advice from guys like this? Maybe that's the problem.

 

Most of anything I've posted as "advice" in this thread is really ranting, but to the extent it could be taken as advice, it is advice not for the men, but for you.