Lets actually pick apart what the problem is with the dating market

[tami-chan]

Yup, I'm described as "boring" by women, yet I exercise, go hiking, kayak, travel the world, constantly, read, hate television, love museums etc... But I don't produce drama, hence I'm boring. I'm not a "challenege"

 

so why not make yourself a "challenge"? I don't get it, you seem to have figured it all out but would rather just whine about it than test it out?

[betamanlet]

so why not make yourself a "challenge"? I don't get it, you seem to have figured it all out but would rather just whine about it than test it out?

 

So I have to be someone I'm not to get women to like me?

[ordinary_girl]

So I have to be someone I'm not to get women to like me?

 

we all have to make an effort to be interesting for the opposite sex. that doesn't mean you become somebody else, it just means you become someone that's more accessible to their liking.

[Stockalone]

So I have to be someone I'm not to get women to like me?

 

You have to become someone you are not, meaning you need to like those changes. That can work very well.

 

If you have to be someone you are not (without embracing this "new" you), you will resent those changes, even if it means women will be interested in you.

 

That was my experience. Nonetheless, I think you should give it a try. Maybe you would at least be okay with those changes that will get you results.

[tami-chan]

So I have to be someone I'm not to get women to like me?

 

or accept who you are and pleasantly wait for the person who will love you for the way you are and not be angry, envious, and ( dare I say) bitter about other people's life (or love life). Someone like that radiates negativity and it is a turn off....seriously, do you want to be with a woman who constantly whines about how the dating pool is "so unfair"?

[tami-chan]

You have to become someone you are not, meaning you need to like those changes. That can work very well.

 

If you have to be someone you are not (without embracing this "new" you), you will resent those changes, even if it means women will be interested in you.

 

That was my experience. Nonetheless, I think you should give it a try. Maybe you would at least be okay with those changes that will get you results.

 

Stockalone is right. It is not about "not being you"...it is about making adjustments...learning from past mistakes....Change is a wonderful thing..but yes, you have to embrace it.

 

Betamanlet,start with....stop complaining and whining. Really, I find it difficult to believe that nobody is interested in you. You said that the only thing you ask from a woman is that she not be obese. That is a whole wide range of women! I think you are not being true to yourself. You are most likely pickier than you want to admit. You do not want a rich, successful woman because they only want richer, more successful men. You do not want somebody who earns less than you because then she only wants to be with you because you are a lawyer and earn good enough money....So you want somebody exactly like you! and even then, I bet you will find something wrong with her!

[MadDriver]

betamanlet, you and I should go take a trip to West Virginia or Appalachian Kentucky -- at least there we would not immediately dismissed as "losers" for not being in the Forbes Richest People list.... hahaha...

 

On the flip-side, I have this theory that part of the reason America is so affluent in the world stage today is because American women are so damn demanding of their men. Your "average" American single female would be considered a mujer buscaplata -- gold-digger. Mexican women place much more importance on family than on materialistic score-keeping.

[meerkat stew]

betamanlet, you and I should go take a trip to West Virginia or Appalachian Kentucky -- at least there we would not immediately dismissed as "losers" for not being in the Forbes Richest People list.... hahaha...

 

One thing we all should realize is that the dating market is fluid, and heavily geographically influenced. If we find ourselves in D.C. for example, and don't mix personally with one of the most superficial "people markets" in the entire world, we can always get out to a place that is more in tune with our personalities and beliefs. Betcha people in Omaha, for example, aren't quite as superficial generally as they are in D.C.

[mem11363]

The thing is she really and truly fell for him. And she still really truly deeply loves him. And betaM he got to have 2 kids with her and is happy with that. He has a fun and loving wife who is really into him and they have been having seriously hot monkey sex for over 20 years now.

 

So what exactly is it that you find so flawed about this. He is happy - she is happy. If your point is that he didn't somehow get the perfect starting situation - well being born the son of a functioning alcoholic he was used to non-ideal starting points.

 

Gosh you sure are negative.

 

 

Is she the only woman on the planet now?

[sally4sara]

One thing we all should realize is that the dating market is fluid, and heavily geographically influenced. If we find ourselves in D.C. for example, and don't mix personally with one of the most superficial "people markets" in the entire world, we can always get out to a place that is more in tune with our personalities and beliefs. Betcha people in Omaha, for example, aren't quite as superficial generally as they are in D.C.

 

Born in Omaha, currently living in the DC metro area.

DC is people from EVERYWHERE and every economic background. There are seriously scary ghettos and there are seriously plush mansions. As far as what you will find? That's like asking what you can eat at a super buffet.

Omaha? If you're not watching college ball and drinking a beer with folks you met in your church youth group - they don't know you and you're probably suspicious to them. It has some scared straight christian camps and "work the land" juvenile camps. Its a sky bus hub and that will bring you the most receptive folks around for an hour or two before they go back on a plane to someplace more interesting.

[Miko]

I could run up all types of reasons why Detroit metro stinks too. Mainly obesity, bad attitudes, poor & avg people who think they're rich but I guess it's if you can accept certain things.

 

i believe that most people who act snobby or whatever are just putting up a front and you have get through it before you can tear it down. It's like a defense mechanism due to being crammed in a city with a $hitload of people.

 

You see gorgeous girls w/ ugly guys & vice versa b/c people naturally don't care what other people think unless we learned to be that way, which most of us did and you got to transcend it then tear it down from the inside. Easier said than done I guess but being done every day somewhere

[gypsy_nicky]

I think the problem is pretty much the same as it was decades ago (mainly beauty and social status or virility). It's just increasing because of the equalling of the sexes in terms of social status and standing.

 

I am hoping once men and women have removed all social implications (status) in the dating market, we will tend to go for the universal traits given to us- beauty.

 

But removing these social implications is difficult because even today its difficult to state where male/female patterns in mating begin, is it biological, social or both.

[gypsy_nicky]

for us laypeople

 

http://modernizationimperative.blogspot.com/2006/08/loneliness-of-highly-educated-high.html

[Sam Spade]

for us laypeople

 

http://modernizationimperative.blogspot.com/2006/08/loneliness-of-highly-educated-high.html

 

This will change, but for now sucks both for men and for women.

In the meantime, I'll focus on making my lower-status gf happy (and on forgetting all similar status women who think they can do better than me, but won't:laugh:)

Edited December 20, 2009 by Sam Spade

[sally4sara]

This will change, but for now sucks both for men and for women.

In the meantime, I'll focus on making my lower-status gf happy (and on forgetting all similar status women who think they can do better than me, but won't:laugh:)

 

This isn't the first time your referred to your GF as "lower" in some way. Lower status (than you) lower intellect (than you) - its like you get some satisfaction in acknowledging her "lowness" in comparison to you........

 

I'm exhausted from day number two of Battery Kemble sledding so I can't really explain it, but it just sticks out in so many of your posts about how much better you think you are than her. For all your mentioning about the hassles of other women and their demands, you seem to also want to be seen as better than like you say they do. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but do you think you can have a healthy relationship with this girl if you think of her as beneath you?

[Sam Spade]

This isn't the first time your referred to your GF as "lower" in some way. Lower status (than you) lower intellect (than you) - its like you get some satisfaction in acknowledging her "lowness" in comparison to you........

 

I'm exhausted from day number two of Battery Kemble sledding so I can't really explain it, but it just sticks out in so many of your posts about how much better you think you are than her. For all your mentioning about the hassles of other women and their demands, you seem to also want to be seen as better than like you say they do. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but do you think you can have a healthy relationship with this girl if you think of her as beneath you?

 

 

Yeah, whatever, and you're totally picking a fight here.

In terms of educational and professional "status", I have a doctorate, and that automatically puts 97% of the population (male or female) "beneath" me, and that's not an "attitude", that's a statement of fact - look it up in the census data.

However, unlike most women, I'm not hung up on that, and I'm perfectly happy dating a woman of lower educ/professional status, as long as she's a lovable, loving, great, sweet person that treats me well. And my gf is all that, and then some . So, what I think of a person is conditional primarily on their personal quality, than on status variables.

 

As for "similar" status women - well, on average, they're not nearly as appreciative of what i represent, hence my conclusion that they're more pain than they are worth.

[Woggle]

I actually get the feeling that Sam Spade is very appreciative to have a woman in his life that is not a drama addict.

[sally4sara]

Yeah, whatever, and you're totally picking a fight here.

In terms of educational and professional "status", I have a doctorate, and that automatically puts 97% of the population (male or female) "beneath" me, and that's not an "attitude", that's a statement of fact - look it up in the census data.

However, unlike most women, I'm not hung up on that, and I'm perfectly happy dating a woman of lower educ/professional status, as long as she's a lovable, loving, great, sweet person that treats me well. And my gf is all that, and then some . So, what I think of a person is conditional primarily on their personal quality, than on status variables.

 

As for "similar" status women - well, on average, they're not nearly as appreciative of what i represent, hence my conclusion that they're more pain than they are worth.

 

Perhaps other women who are peers are not so much "hung up on it" as they are giving off the same vibe you do with the need to have some show of gratitude for the concession you've made by dating someone who is not technically your peer. The both of you vying for first chair in the relationship rather than being able to share it? You and those women are expecting the same genuflections from each other and come up without. It can feel like you don't "click" or mesh well.

Some people are okay with being expected to show appreciation for the technical difference you mention; does your GF come from an area or family dynamic that viewed her as a second class persona to others? I did some freelance design work for a catering company one of my friends owns. I agreed to help with the food prep one day when she was short staffed and brought a girl I was mentoring along to she if she could be hired on. The girl was from Myanmar and was a refugee. She was quite taken aback that I would agree to do the same work she was hoping to get hired on to do daily. She, without angst, stated that the work was unbecoming of me but fine for her. She was worried for my pride and honor........ Maybe your GF is comfortable with being "lower" and is just grateful that you accept her. And maybe YOU need that in a relationship?

[sally4sara]

Seriously sally4sara, why would this be so surprising in his case or in almost all cases? Women want to marry "up". No sideways (i.e. equality), but "'up". They only respect men who are somehow "higher" in standing than they are. In terms of money, education, etc.

 

You seem upset that his GF chose a high-status male... I believe you'd do the same -- so why are the high-status males not allowed to call things as they are?

 

I'm not upset about it driver. Its called a conversation. And I'm not status seeking so I ask rather than assume about a dynamic I have trouble identifying with.

[Woggle]

So expecting to be appreciated in a relationship means that you want a woman to be 2nd class?

[sally4sara]

So expecting to be appreciated in a relationship means that you want a woman to be 2nd class?

 

No silly. It was just something I noticed he mentions often when he speaks of his GF. And I'm asking HIM about HIS situation without assuming HE is the same as all others.

 

And if she is comfortable with it and he needs it - that makes them compatible right?

[Sam Spade]

Perhaps other women who are peers are not so much "hung up on it" as they are giving off the same vibe you do with the need to have some show of gratitude for the concession you've made by dating someone who is not technically your peer. The both of you vying for first chair in the relationship rather than being able to share it? You and those women are expecting the same genuflections from each other and come up without. It can feel like you don't "click" or mesh well.

Some people are okay with being expected to show appreciation for the technical difference you mention; does your GF come from an area or family dynamic that viewed her as a second class persona to others? I did some freelance design work for a catering company one of my friends owns. I agreed to help with the food prep one day when she was short staffed and brought a girl I was mentoring along to she if she could be hired on. The girl was from Myanmar and was a refugee. She was quite taken aback that I would agree to do the same work she was hoping to get hired on to do daily. She, without angst, stated that the work was unbecoming of me but fine for her. She was worried for my pride and honor........ Maybe your GF is comfortable with being "lower" and is just grateful that you accept her. And maybe YOU need that in a relationship?[/QUOTE]

 

 

Well, maybe, and maybe that's precisely a precondition for having a good relationship rather than a bad thing as necessarily implied above . Of course i need "gratitude" in a relationship (which is no different from me being grateful for having a good woman like her). I find it exceedingly cute when my gf playfully and pridefully proclaims - "My professor!". The status difference greatly facilitates clear gender roles. I'm not opposed to dating a highly accomplished woman (my ex is doing a PhD in rocket science - literally (aerospace engineering)), but level of accomplishment actually means very little for the quality of the relationship (except very little patience, and high demands): she had much lower level of emotional intelligence and health than my current gf. I'm not saying there is correlation between accomplishment and emotional health, but that the latter matters more than the former. So, of course I need a woman who is patient and understanding rather than one who gives me the attitude as soon as there is any little problem. You tell me who is likely to have the patience - the alpha- laywer/manager type (who also probably secretly resents me for not making more money than her, but won't admit it), or the cute girl with strong family values and an okay day job (who also probably appreciates the decent salary, security and flexible schedule)?

 

Also, what distinguishes my gf from any other girl I've dated or encountered is that she's quite open or unapologetic about the things that matter to her - she wouldn't date someone who isn't handsome, ans she wouldn't date someone with a low-class job. Initially I'd get put off by that, but I'm changing my mind to actually consider it pretty healthy, since she isn't any less caring for that. I can also see some ways in which it could be unhealthy, but even so it is much healthier than a fierce mess with unresolved emotional issues. Big part of a relationship is taking care of each other in different ways, and what the super-busy exceedingly accomplished woman can offer is not necessarily for me.

 

 

Finally, it's not like she's some destitute third world mail order bride:rolleyes: - yes, she's Asian and traditional, but she has grown up here & her family is respectfully rich (and speaking of role models - her mom is extremely independent business owner), and she's getting a professional mater's degree and will be making her own money, but the point is that apparently there is enough status differential she feels comfortable with. (My job is well paid, but won't make anybody rich, but it's secure, considered prestigious in the community and blah, blah, blah . But, of course I'd prefer to be with someone in whose eyes this is a big deal, rather than someone who will be somewhat dissatisfied with the level of success it brings.)

 

Here's a trivia fact: I've been rejected by a greater proportion of women on my socio-economic level than "below". If it was *just* about my personality, the rate of rejection would have been constant across socio-economic lines...

Edited December 21, 2009 by Sam Spade

[Sam Spade]

So expecting to be appreciated in a relationship means that you want a woman to be 2nd class?

 

In women's mind it's even worse - a guy's expectation to be appreciated in a relationship is an offence commensurate with rape, and basically just another proof of male dominance, insesitivity, and general uselessness .

[sally4sara]

Perhaps other women who are peers are not so much "hung up on it" as they are giving off the same vibe you do with the need to have some show of gratitude for the concession you've made by dating someone who is not technically your peer. The both of you vying for first chair in the relationship rather than being able to share it? You and those women are expecting the same genuflections from each other and come up without. It can feel like you don't "click" or mesh well.

Some people are okay with being expected to show appreciation for the technical difference you mention; does your GF come from an area or family dynamic that viewed her as a second class persona to others? I did some freelance design work for a catering company one of my friends owns. I agreed to help with the food prep one day when she was short staffed and brought a girl I was mentoring along to she if she could be hired on. The girl was from Myanmar and was a refugee. She was quite taken aback that I would agree to do the same work she was hoping to get hired on to do daily. She, without angst, stated that the work was unbecoming of me but fine for her. She was worried for my pride and honor........ Maybe your GF is comfortable with being "lower" and is just grateful that you accept her. And maybe YOU need that in a relationship?[/QUOTE]

 

 

Well, maybe, and maybe that's precisely a precondition for having a good relationship rather than a bad thing as necessarily implied above . Of course i need "gratitude" in a relationship (which is no different from me being grateful for having a good woman like her). I find it exceedingly cute when my gf playfully and pridefully proclaims - "My professor!". The status difference greatly facilitates clear gender roles. I'm not opposed to dating a highly accomplished woman (my ex is doing a PhD in rocket science - literally (aerospace engineering)), but level of accomplishment actually means very little for the quality of the relationship (except very little patience, and high demands): she had much lower level of emotional intelligence and health than my current gf. I'm not saying there is correlation between accomplishment and emotional health, but that the latter matters more than the former. So, of course I need a woman who is patient and understanding rather than one who gives me the attitude as soon as there is any little problem. You tell me who is likely to have the patience - the alpha- laywer/manager type (who also probably secretly resents me for not making more money than her), or the cute girl with strong family values and an okay day job (who also probably appreciates the decent salary, security and flexible schedule)?

 

Also, what distinguishes my gf from any other girl I've dated or encountered is that she's quite open or unapologetic about the things that matter to her - she wouldn't date someone who isn't handsome, ans she wouldn't date someone with a low-class job. Initially I'd get put off by that, but I'm changing my mind to actually consider it pretty healthy, since she isn't any less caring for that. I can also see some ways in which it could be unhealthy, but even so it is much healthier than a fierce mess with unresolved emotional issues. Big part of a relationship is taking care of each other in different ways, and what the super-busy exceedingly accomplished woman can offer is not necessarily for me.

 

 

Finally, it's not like she's some destitute third world mail order bride:rolleyes: - yes, she's Asian and traditional, but she has grown up here & her family is respectfully rich (and speaking of role models - her mom is extremely independent business owner), and she's getting a professional mater's degree and will be making her own money, but the point is that apparently there is enough status differential she feels comfortable with. (My job is well paid, but won't make anybody rich, but it's secure, considered prestigious in the community and blah, blah, blah . But, of course I'd prefer to be with someone in whose eyes this is a big deal, rather than someone who will be somewhat dissatisfied with the level of success it brings.)

 

Here's a trivia fact: I've been rejected by a greater proportion of women on my socio-economic level than "below". If it was *just* about my personality, the rate of rejection would have been constant across socio-economic lines...

 

Thanks for clearing up your needs and her comfort levels and how they work together for your relationship. I am not implying either of those qualities or their interactions to be a bad thing. It is what it is and if it is bad - its not like it is bad for me or you or her if she truly is happy being thought of the way you think of her.

It was to illustrate that your needs and how they might not have been met prior to this girl you now date, was not a "problem in the dating market" but a problem for you.

We all have needs. When they are met it isn't because we found one that behaves "right", it is that we found one we are compatible with. When we have not met one that is compatible with us - we are not meeting people who are "wrong", we are meeting people who are wrong for us.

[sally4sara]

In women's mind it's even worse - a guy's expectation to be appreciated in a relationship is an offence commensurate with rape, and basically just another proof of male dominance, insesitivity, and general uselessness .

 

Oh well, I had not gotten so far as to read this piece of drivel where you assume what I am getting at.

Are you sure you're so much higher educated than her when you're assuming I am thinking poorly of your relationship just because I am a woman?