Lets actually pick apart what the problem is with the dating market

[bac]

If the first thing out of a guy's mouth is sexual interest, he's in the no-zone. Maybe this is just me.

 

IMHO the only difference why some girls will go for sexual interest is that they believe that the sexual interest is the only way to get into emotional connection with a guy.

 

Under emotional connection I mean that a man relates to a girl as she is a person with some basic emotional needs but not as a sexual object.

Edited December 15, 2009 by bac

[Ruby Slippers]

I think part of the problem is the gender gap is narrowing, in terms of education, accomplishment, and income. I have a number of driven and successful female friends who have a hard time meeting men who are on their level. I am also interviewing a lot of female business owners these days for my work, and they are all saying the same thing: it's hard to meet men on your level, and when you do, they are often threatened by your success or are not OK with the amount of time and energy you have to invest to be successful.

 

The double standards definitely go both ways. Men want women to be strong, independent, and capable, but they also want us to have ample time to take care of them and baby them a little. You can't have it all.

 

Things are changing, and it's hard for a lot of people to deal with.

[Angel1111]

What I've encountered a number of times is that there are a lot of people out there who are simply unstable-minded. It's like an epidemic. And being a pretty grounded person, I find erratic, neurotic, paranoid, controlling, and angry people very difficult to be around. The large majority of people just don't seem to know how to be in a genuinely loving relationship.

[Sam Spade]

meeting a nice average person is now called "settling", etc !!!!

True story......

[Lish]

OpenGL...you're back!

 

 

 

I don't really have much to add, sorry.

 

RubySlippers & FWB, up a treeeeee

[Sam Spade]

Not what I'm talking about. Not suggesting men walk up and spout a crude, sexual come-on, nothing of the sort. It's all about attitude. Men have been cowed into being ashamed of their sexual desire. Men are described sexually as predators, rapists, child molesters, stalkers, players, dogs, pigs etc. ad infinitum in modern culture to a point where they are ashamed of their natural, healthy desire for sex. This causes them massive internal conflict and disillusionment in forming normal sexual relationships with women. It thoroughly erodes confidence, the mighty "C" word that most women claim to want and respect.

 

Women respect and feel much more attraction for me when I exhibit the traits of a confident man who approaches them as a masculine, sexual man, not an apologetic beggar, hat in hand, supplicating, looking for a handout. At least in the initial attraction that leads to sex and/or dating relationships, women respond to being led and seduced. We can call it passion, flirtation, seduction, whatever, it just works that way best for me and all the men I know who have success getting dates, relationships and sex.

 

 

All young boys should e required to watch all the Jimmy Stewart, Humphrey Bogart, and Cary Grant movies. Congress should pass a law to include those gems in the school curricula.

 

 

Asses must be grabbed, gruffness must be exhibited, impeccable dress and manners should accompany.

[Sam Spade]

I agree with this. i'm about to ding 38 & separated.

I can't take 3 1/2 yr old anywhere without single mothers chatting me up.

 

some of them are pretty hot also.

 

It cracks me up because I don't hit on them & eventually they always seem to work my "wife" who is not there into the convo.

 

It's like they can sense i'm available.

 

If you add a puppy to the 3 \yr old, you'll be unstoppable. Scoping da hood with a baby and a puppy in tow will produce so much panties pudding that the streets will flood and FEMA must be called.

[Sam Spade]

Road to friendzone. Instead approach her with an honest, respectful and warm sexual interest. The only thing a guy should worry about on an emotional level with a woman -initially- is stimulating her raw attraction. The rest should be saved for when a relationship is actually in place or forming up well.

 

I firmly believe that a relationship is anchored around raw attraction. That is what produces the emotional bonding, not the other way around. Although women insist that the opposite route is true (take care of her emotional needs and she'll reward you with crazy sex :rolleyes:) that approach is nothing but a trip to the celibacy pit. Raw attraction first, paying attention to the ensuing emotional needs second.

[Woggle]

If you make a woman respect you then everything else will fall into place. If she knows that you will walk the minute she crosses the line it makes a world of difference.

[meerkat stew]

I think part of the problem is the gender gap is narrowing, in terms of education, accomplishment, and income. I have a number of driven and successful female friends who have a hard time meeting men who are on their level. I am also interviewing a lot of female business owners these days for my work, and they are all saying the same thing: it's hard to meet men on your level, and when you do, they are often threatened by your success or are not OK with the amount of time and energy you have to invest to be successful.

 

The double standards definitely go both ways. Men want women to be strong, independent, and capable, but they also want us to have ample time to take care of them and baby them a little. You can't have it all.

 

Things are changing, and it's hard for a lot of people to deal with.

 

I think part of the problem is that many women won't date a man who earns less income than they make. I have a number of female friends who have a hard time finding men who make as much money as they do, and they won't date a man who makes less.

 

The double standards go both ways.

 

Men still get to have sex without as much stigma as women (but this one is -rapidly- evaporating).

 

That's -one- on the man side.

 

Women still expect for men to take all the risk of approaching, asking for phone numbers, calling and asking out. Women still expect men to pay for the first several dates, and many women expect men to pay for -everything- thereafter. Women still expect to be treated politely and with deference, despite the fact that many of them act just as crudely as men in public. Women still expect to receive special attention on every hallmark holiday in existence without much reciprocation (gave my last girlfriend a fairly nice piece of jewelry, she gave me a framed picture of herself, she makes almost as much as I do, can repeat this tale in 20 or so variations over the last five GFs... don't even get me started on Valentine's). Women expect men not to make sexist remarks and bristle at them (rightfully so), while tossing the terms "player," "dog," "stalker" (called me four times and sent me flowers), "creep" (not the guy at the office I -wanted-to ask me out), "pig," "pervo," about with abandon and if you call them on it, you are then branded a misogynist/hater. Women expect to be taken out to nice restaurants, yet almost never reciprocate as most of them can't cook worth a damn these days. I could keep going, but will spare you.

 

As far as being "babied" by a woman or pampered? ever? ROFL, you got things -way- backwards. Men my Dad's age (70) never got that.

 

Fixed.

[Woggle]

Very true. Women go on and on about how men are afraid of independent women but if they make more than a man they look down on him. They want men to retain our old gender roles while they have the freedom to bend as much as they want.

 

I also agree that many women want men to cater to them and pamper them but are willing to give little to nothing in return. What exactly does a man get out of this?

[calizaggy]

I think part of the problem is the gender gap is narrowing, in terms of education, accomplishment, and income. I have a number of driven and successful female friends who have a hard time meeting men who are on their level. I am also interviewing a lot of female business owners these days for my work, and they are all saying the same thing: it's hard to meet men on your level, and when you do, they are often threatened by your success or are not OK with the amount of time and energy you have to invest to be successful.

 

The double standards definitely go both ways. Men want women to be strong, independent, and capable, but they also want us to have ample time to take care of them and baby them a little. You can't have it all.

 

Things are changing, and it's hard for a lot of people to deal with.

 

 

So let's say I marry an accountant/lawyer/business owner that works all the time.. How does that add to my life? Men are looking for sweet, kind, sexy, caring, compassionate.. The same traits many "careerists" are lacking.

 

 

Of course these disillusioned women are looking for a man at "their level".. If the men at "their level" choose more feminine women that have time, it must be because the man is "threatened by her success" Are you kidding me?

 

And a man who wants to spend time with his wife now wants to be "babied"? Who said men want women who are independent anyway?

[QuistisTrepe]

@ meerkat

 

You present a lot of anecdotal evidence. I can equally tell you that my boyfriend makes about 200,000 dollars more than I do but I got him a Gucci coat for christmas and he got me a 20 dollar used book off of ebay (first edition of my favorite author but that's beside the point I'm trying to make). Yes I do expect some common courtesy like opening doors and lifting heavy objects but hey, I clean and buy the groceries. I could refute every one of your points with more anecdotal evidence but you know what? If men are getting the short end of the stick like you say, then they should go for an alternative such as dating other men. Hey, you know dating is a free market. If women are so awful why are a majority of relationships still heterosexual?

[Woggle]

@ meerkat

 

. If women are so awful why are a majority of relationships still heterosexual?

 

Because sexual attraction is a part of nature but men and women are finding it extremely hard to make relationships work today. Look around you and tell me how many truly happy marriages or even partnerships do you know? My guess is not many. There is a rift between men and women that is just getting wider and wider by the day and that is part of what this addresses. I don't think the men in here hate women but they are expressing the frustrations that pretty much any man can relate to on some level.

[alphamale]

Because sexual attraction is a part of nature but men and women are finding it extremely hard to make relationships work today. Look around you and tell me how many truly happy marriages or even partnerships do you know? My guess is not many. There is a rift between men and women that is just getting wider and wider by the day and that is part of what this addresses. I don't think the men in here hate women but they are expressing the frustrations that pretty much any man can relate to on some level.

lets just clarify that you're talking about americans solely here

[Woggle]

lets just clarify that you're talking about americans solely here

 

There are many people from Canada, Britian and other nations that go through the same thing on here.

[alphamale]

If you make a woman respect you then everything else will fall into place. If she knows that you will walk the minute she crosses the line it makes a world of difference.

that only works when the man is in high demand with other women

[Woggle]

that only works when the man is in high demand with other women

 

A man who respects himself and is not afraid to stand up to a woman will naturally attract other women. He gives off an aura. I know that after my divorce when I stopped giving a damn about pleasing women is when I had women coming after me.

[calizaggy]

@ meerkat

 

You present a lot of anecdotal evidence. I can equally tell you that my boyfriend makes about 200,000 dollars more than I do but I got him a Gucci coat for christmas and he got me a 20 dollar used book off of ebay (first edition of my favorite author but that's beside the point I'm trying to make). Yes I do expect some common courtesy like opening doors and lifting heavy objects but hey, I clean and buy the groceries. I could refute every one of your points with more anecdotal evidence but you know what? If men are getting the short end of the stick like you say, then they should go for an alternative such as dating other men. Hey, you know dating is a free market. If women are so awful why are a majority of relationships still heterosexual?

 

 

Every man I have known, including myself would relate much more to MERKATS description of double standards than yours.

 

What are you even trying to say? You feel women spend more money on men, and are more generous than vice versa? Are you kidding me?

[muse08]

It is a combination of princess syndrome and you go girl feminism that has created this entitlement mentality in women.

 

LOL...ur so funny...

 

I'm not even being sarcastic right now. I will say that you definitely stay true to yourself.

 

BTW, what's wrong with a "you go girl" mentality???

[Woggle]

 

LOL...ur so funny...

 

I'm not even being sarcastic right now. I will say that you definitely stay true to yourself.

 

BTW, what's wrong with a "you go girl" mentality???

 

Because it pretty much sees things in terms of men=bad and women=good. It is what causes cheating to sit around saying you go girl as they talk about their affairs. Combine that with princess syndrome and you have women that are just one big headache.

[muse08]

Because it pretty much sees things in terms of men=bad and women=good. It is what causes cheating to sit around saying you go girl as they talk about their affairs. Combine that with princess syndrome and you have women that are just one big headache.

 

WoGGIEEE...you're sadly mistaken. When women encourage one another with the "you go girl" type stuff you're referring to, it's just to keep one another empowered in so many ways, but NOT necessarily to trample over men while discussing relationships. Guys have their macho type bonding as well.

 

Relationships are not the only things that brings women together...

 

(cont'd in next post)

[meerkat stew]

@ meerkat

 

You present a lot of anecdotal evidence. I can equally tell you that my boyfriend makes about 200,000 dollars more than I do but I got him a Gucci coat for christmas and he got me a 20 dollar used book off of ebay (first edition of my favorite author but that's beside the point I'm trying to make). Yes I do expect some common courtesy like opening doors and lifting heavy objects but hey, I clean and buy the groceries. I could refute every one of your points with more anecdotal evidence but you know what? If men are getting the short end of the stick like you say, then they should go for an alternative such as dating other men. Hey, you know dating is a free market. If women are so awful why are a majority of relationships still heterosexual?

 

Almost everything we learn in life is "anecdotal," or based on induction. The number of observations of a specific event bolster the strength of the induction. We don't have the luxury of learning much via strict scientific methodology in day to day existence, so have always wondered at using "anecdotal" as dismissive of validity when it is in fact the way we learn most things in life.

 

When observing events out and about, we categorize them as outlier events or what I like to call "fat of the bell curve" events. For example, I know a woman who gave her BF a very nice watch for Christmas. He gave her a coffee maker in return. This is firmly in "outlier" land, i.e. a "rare" occurence. This happened in 1988. Have rarely heard of such since among my many acquaintances. But then, back in 1988, I will assure you, it was a -very- big deal among the woman's social group, which included me at the time... word got around because of the utter novelty of the occurence. Outlier.

 

Of the 20 or so GFs who have given me gifts in my life, 10% or less of those maybe 100 gifts that I was given were remotely close to the gifts I gave them in value. All of my male friends would likely attribute a similar percentage, as we have in fact discussed the phenomenon on occasion. So my question to you is at what point do observations leave "outlier" land and enter into "fat of the bellcurve" land? I submit that at some point prior to my current level of experience, the observations stopped being "anecdotal" and started being grounds for a fairly solid inductive generalization. Fat of the bell curve.

 

You can cite all the outlier anecdotal evidence you want, I'm in the fat of the bell curve and well know it.

[Woggle]

My wife bought me a top of the line computer two years ago for christmas but she is the exception.

[cognac]

Yeah I agree the dating market is completely skewed against men.

 

The vast majority of women I know, tall, fat, short, thin, annoying, whiney, stupid, smart, etc, all have a boyfriend or some kind of love interest. If they don't, it's out of their own choice.

 

Yet most of my male friends, who are decent looking, extremely intelligent, funny, one of them is even tall (he's the only one who comes close to getting girls), and yet they don't have any girls in their life. This is including me, you don't even want to know the hurdles i'm jumping through to just be with one girl who has a billion problems and is not even that amazing looking from anyone else's point of view, and there's a good chance nothing will even come out of this.

 

I have to agree with the idea that 10% of men are getting 90% of the sex. The guys who dedicate themselves to playing women are ruining for us guys who just want to have some companionship and maybe a marriage one day. Unfortunately most women would rather have sex with the cookie cutter 6'2 vain model man numerous times and in vain try to "convert him " into "boyfriend material", over just hanging out with a more than adequate looking guy who satisfies them both sexually and spiritually. I don't care if they deny it, we all know it's the truth.

 

Don't know if there's more women than men, but it sure seems that way. How else can you explain every woman having a love interest, while most guys I meet, even the decent looking, interesting, and charming ones, I know are single, majority of them hopelessly so .

Edited December 15, 2009 by cognac