"By all means call on LS...

[TaraMaiden]

Tara,

I seldom disagree with your underlying message(s).

What I find lacking in many/most of your posts, though, is kindness and compassion.

 

One can be honest, direct, on point, supportive, encouraging and helpful while still being mindful and respectful of where the other person actually is, not where we (responders to posts) believe they 'could' be or 'should' be.

 

How you deliver your own brand of insight and suggestions often negates the value thereof; it is often more hurtful than helpful, IMO. And then you duck behind your "good/noble/high" intentions...instead of stepping out of your own self, accepting/acknowledging your contributions to the added pain of the other person, and offering something more empathetic.

 

You can also become very attached to your own position/view in a single thread, and use one thread to continue expressing your opinions about some other aspect of a poster's life for which they, apparently, did/do not agree with you (even if the thread to which you're responding has absolutely nothing to do with that other area.)

 

It amuses me, sometimes, because how you go about it is -- most often, I find -- so "opposite" of genuine Buddhist teachings, isn't it?

I keep asking (in my head), "Tara, where is the mindfulness, and the detachment, and the compassion?"

 

To me, you could, if you wanted to, look at HOW you're delivering instead of what. It has nothing to do with being a "shoot from the hips, no-nonsense bitch" -- I am that, 100% But I don't alienate half as many folk around these parts, as you do.

 

I had time to reflect on what you've said, and whilst I am in agreement for the most part, I don't think I'm uncompassionate.

It's actually compassion that keeps me banging on, because I so want people to 'get it'.

But I do get what you mean....

Manifestation of compassion comes in different guises, and the worst kind of the lot is 'idiot Compassion'....the kind that is enacted out of a sense of making us feel good for being so Compassionate, which subtly outweighs the desire to be of a help to others....I've seen it, done it and had it done to me, so I'm wary of actions which would lead me down that road.

I DO think about what I say to people.

I do consider the impact of my words.

And though punchy and seemingly unkind, I do it, with the best of Intention.

I have the eightfold path pasted in my room, and I carry it around in my purse.

My little elasticated wrist-mala gets snapped a few times a day, I can tell you....

 

Thanks for your thought-provoking post....

 

The only problem I have with you giving advice is that you take the advice of scam artists to begin with

 

http://www.cebitec.uni-bielefeld.de/gradschool/images/Dalai_Lama/dalai_lama.jpg

:laugh:

 

you'll have to go lower than that if you're looking for the belt to hit below, dearest......

[gopher]

No, not at all. I'm very pleased you've commented....

 

Could you tell me what you think I'm wrong about?

 

"Diagnosis" of a poster's issue is occasionally a hit-and-miss affair, because either the op has not been adequately candid, or has (for many reasons) withheld information, or has obviously charged the reader with a one-sided account.

of course, it is bound to be one sided, so that's the only perspective we can reply from....

But with regard to the responsibility for the arising of emotions and responses, as gist of my posts, as I detailed in my first post here - I don't think I am wrong....

 

My advice may well be off-bat. I absolutely accept and own that one.

but as to the origin and manifestation of emotional feelings, I really don't think I am....

Because primarily, that's not a concept of my invention.

 

I hope in turn, you don't see that as complete rebuttal...

 

Thank you for commenting.

 

Tara,

 

You certainly aren't wrong about your feeling about a specific post. But, as you said, your advice could be off, like any of ours can be. Is it frustrating for you when someone ignores your advice, and advice in general, but is still stuck in the same place?

 

Thanks for your reply...very respectful.

[Stockalone]

I had time to reflect on what you've said, and whilst I am in agreement for the most part, I don't think I'm uncompassionate.

It's actually compassion that keeps me banging on, because I so want people to 'get it'.

 

I think that could be the problem. IME, tough love either works the first time or never at all.

 

I don't think people can be beaten into submission by constantly telling them they are wrong and just can't or won't see it.

 

There is nothing wrong with tough love, because it works for some people. However, if a poster makes it clear that he/she doesn't agree with you, continuing with the tough love advice can be seen as bashing.

 

Apparently, you think you should continue in the hopes of getting through to them. Because you think it will help them and you really mean well. I think that is a waste of your time and will not be helpful to those posters. Their approach is just too different from yours.

 

Personally, I'll read all advice that is given to me and give it some thought. But if I don't agree with the advice, it won't matter how often people try to beat some sense (according to their POV) into me.

[TaraMaiden]

Is it frustrating for you when someone ignores your advice, and advice in general, but is still stuck in the same place?

 

In a word?

Yes.

 

It's almost as if actually, they thrive on being immersed in negativity.

I'm not singling any particular poster out, here, so please read no more into this than a general comment, but I think sometimes there are posters who turn out to be virtual-emotional vampires....(let us coin them VEV's....!)

They thrive on the "yes, but...." and find many objections to getting themselves out of a situation, because frankly, the attention is preferable to the solution....

 

 

 

 

I think that could be the problem. IME, tough love either works the first time or never at all.

 

I don't think people can be beaten into submission by constantly telling them they are wrong and just can't or won't see it.

Hmmm...I'm not sure I entirely agree....

There is a poster here who actually PMs me to go onto their thread and respond to their OP.... An when I do, I generally find suitable cause to let them have it with both barrels.

For which they both decry my input, yet thank me for it, quasi-simultaneously.

It's almost a ritual!

"TM, here's my thread. I think I'm being an idiot, but come and see what you think....."

"Yup. You're being an idiot."

"Yeh, thought so, you hard@$$ cow. Thanks so much...."

 

 

There is nothing wrong with tough love, because it works for some people. However, if a poster makes it clear that he/she doesn't agree with you, continuing with the tough love advice can be seen as bashing.

herein I think (as has been said already) lies the problem.

Knowing when it's best to quit.

I've never been one of life's quitters....It really does go against my developed nature.

 

Maybe that's it.

|In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think that's my problem.

Giving up on posting, seems to me as if I've given up on the poster.....

Quitting, to me, is losing, or failing.

 

But I sometimes need to quit.

 

Apparently, you think you should continue in the hopes of getting through to them. Because you think it will help them and you really mean well. I think that is a waste of your time and will not be helpful to those posters. Their approach is just too different from yours.

 

I also think that if I'm advised that my approach has been thought-provoking and helpful, I feel I need to carry on persisting, and maintaining that contact, to remain stimulating.

 

It's hard to stop when you're on a roll....

 

 

Personally, I'll read all advice that is given to me and give it some thought. But if I don't agree with the advice, it won't matter how often people try to beat some sense (according to their POV) into me.

 

Thanks, Stock....I'll bear that in mind......

[hopesndreams]

You have intelligent, thought provoking posts. You are also kind hearted. You take the time to know, actually know, and have read up on all what the poster says before comment.

 

You are invaluable on these boards.

[TaraMaiden]

I'm really blown over by that, and I don't know what to say....

 

You are too kind.

[hopesndreams]

2 words

 

thank and you

 

lol

[Ronni_W]

Tara,

Isn't it...interesting is a good word. Isn't it interesting that you "manifest different behaviour on Buddhist forums"?

When I read that, I must admit that the first term that popped into my head was: part-time Buddhist. I wouldn't imagine it is that but...well. Maybe just something for your self-reflections(?)

 

My belief is that if my own noble intentions don't translate into positive/inspirational/helpful words and actions on my part, then it is my own noble intentions that need to be revisited and revised.

When people who hurt me say that they didn't intend to, my response these days is along the lines of, "Yeah, I was already pretty sure that it wasn't your intention to hurt me. But you did, nonetheless. NOW what are you planning to do about the UNintentional outcome/consequence of what you said/did?"

I had time to reflect on what you've said, and whilst I am in agreement for the most part, I don't think I'm uncompassionate.

Not at all that you don't HAVE compassion in whatever quantity...I certainly can't make such an assessment from here (nor is it my place or interest to do so.) More that your compassion doesn't always get conveyed in your posts.

It's actually compassion that keeps me banging on, because I so want people to 'get it'.

Isn't that the part where 'detachment' kicks in, though, or ought to kick in?

 

I mean...I know exactly what you mean. There is a deeper place where [we] just know that our view really can help to relieve despair and distress -- and that is what we are really, really wanting and trying to do.

 

But. It is NOT compassionate at all, to try to force our views on others. At least, not by my definition of 'compassion'. How I do it, or try to do it, is more like, "Okay, so [the poster] isn't open to my excellent advice. Can I give it in a different way, or offer something ELSE that might also help to relieve her or his despair and distress?"

 

That is, I will sometimes then offer my "B list" advice, and if that is also ignored or not well-received, then that is clearly not the thread in which I can make any positive difference.

 

Not that I don't want them to "get it"...but that there are other sources from which they will "get" whatever will relieve their despair and distress. And yeah...sometimes what they want and need IS pity and support to stay in their 'victim place'. And. They are totally worthy and deserving of getting what THEY want and need, is how I look at it. Just. I am not the one who can give it to them (when pity and permission to wallow is what they're looking for.)

 

And there also is the part where acting out from such a desire can come across as arrogant (not that you ARE arrogant, but that how you communicate your views and opinions can come across that way.)

To me, it suggests a belief that people need to "get" [your] way of seeing/doing things because that is the only, or best, or proper way to do life. Like I said, though -- I seldom disagree with your underlying messages; I KNOW that your opinions and suggestions CAN help others...but ONLY those who are open to it.

 

To me, it's more about detaching from those whom you cannot help because they are not open to what you have to offer. And, Tara, we CANNOT help everybody...much as it is our deepest heart's desire to do so. I do know that feeling all too well; and the...sadness (for me)...when, in my mind, I'm unsuccessful at helping.

 

Lawd. Feels like I've been typing forever -- sorry for the long post Hope there is something useful or, at least, offers (more) food for thought.

 

Namaste,

Ronni

[TaraMaiden]

Ronni, you're a treasure.

I think we're on the same page.....

I get precisely what you mean, in every case.

I appreciate your taking the time, effort and trouble to post as you have.

(going to be jumping and leap-frogging around in my response, here....)

 

I sometimes answer my own comments....

I think I'm different on Buddhist forums, because I hardly ever encounter the kinds of posts found here....

We do get an awful lot of "How would Buddhism address....." or "What does Buddhism say about....." or even "I have *this issue* and would like to know if the Buddha ever...."

 

(it can get repetitive......! )

 

I'm acutely aware of the part-time Buddhist trap. It's one I am conscious of, and am striving to avoid. Maybe I've not thought it through enough.....

I don't think I'm so much part-time, as unskillful, and un-mindful.

I'm not concentrating enough......

 

Detachment.

 

That's one great big hindrance, isn't it?

The key, in fact.....

Detachment sucks.

We Buddhists are so attached to getting that bit right!

 

let go, let go, let go.....

I always think (and I would never deny that this is the arrogant bit) that if I just have one more 'go', maybe then, they'll get it....So don't 'let go' just yet, you might just almost be there.....

 

Great food.....

[Ronni_W]

let go, let go, let go.....

I always think (and I would never deny that this is the arrogant bit) that if I just have one more 'go', maybe then, they'll get it....So don't 'let go' just yet, you might just almost be there.....

Oh lawd, TELL me about it!

Doesn't happen here -- I'm pretty good at not being invested in these outcomes.

But in my personal relationships <insert every of the 'Smilies'>!!! What is the freakin' sign that I have done all that is within my power and authority to do? If I let go now, am I bailing or appropriately butting out?

 

I do agree with you...I think we know where the other is

 

Great food.....

Glad you're enjoying...but caution to not over-indulge. Don't know if it's too many calories or what, but sometimes people just get sick of what I "cook 'n serve"

 

Hugs, Tara. Have a great weekend...and just strive to keep being 'you'.

[Stockalone]

Hmmm...I'm not sure I entirely agree....

There is a poster here who actually PMs me to go onto their thread and respond to their OP.... An when I do, I generally find suitable cause to let them have it with both barrels.

For which they both decry my input, yet thank me for it, quasi-simultaneously.

It's almost a ritual!

"TM, here's my thread. I think I'm being an idiot, but come and see what you think....."

"Yup. You're being an idiot."

"Yeh, thought so, you hard@$$ cow. Thanks so much...."

 

In those cases, it looks to me like you push them in the direction they were already leaning towards anyway. Tough love gives them the final push that is needed. Either that, or those posters just aren't stubborn enough to stick with their original opinion.

 

All kidding aside, I think this is different from trying to change people's entire way of thinking. They don't need to be pushed a few inches off the fence, they'd need to be pushed for a few miles just to even see the fence.

 

I don't think tough love can achieve that, people can only take so many beatings.

 

 

herein I think (as has been said already) lies the problem.

Knowing when it's best to quit.

I've never been one of life's quitters....It really does go against my developed nature.

 

There are threads where I think about posting. Then I envision the replies of the OP (usually someone who who started similar threads before) to my posts or that of others.

 

By the time I am finished, I often don't even want to post in the thread anymore because I envision a stalemate. The gender war threads would be an example of such threads. Those always seem to go in circles where no progress is made.

 

If I think that progress can be made (no matter in what direction), I'll chime in. It's one of the reasons why I do appreciate your approach. Diversity is good. And as long as you believe there can be progress, you should continue to post and continue to dispense tough love. It gives people the chance to choose what makes the most sense to them.

 

It's just that I sometimes don't see the use in posting or exchanging the same arguments over and over again. And then I see other members of LS posting in those threads and think they are tilting at windmills. Fighting a good cause but sadly getting nowhere.

 

But if you don't think there are lost causes, it's no wonder you feel as though you'd give up on posters by not posting.

 

 

Maybe that's it.

|In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think that's my problem.

Giving up on posting, seems to me as if I've given up on the poster.....

Quitting, to me, is losing, or failing.

 

But I sometimes need to quit.

 

I call it tactical retreat, quitting sounds so negative.

 

But I understand your point. Sometimes, it's difficult to grasp that for some people the simplest things (from our POV) seem inconceivable to them.

 

Then I remind myself that I do the same thing. Some advice I have been given just didn't make sense to me. I could even understand what motivated those posters to say the things they did, but it was simply not practical to follow this advice as my outlook on life was too different.

 

We all live in the same reality but we perceive this reality very differently and thus solutions to problems will have to be different. Polar opposites can sometimes be valid opinions.

 

 

I also think that if I'm advised that my approach has been thought-provoking and helpful, I feel I need to carry on persisting, and maintaining that contact, to remain stimulating.

 

It's hard to stop when you're on a roll....

 

If the advise is well-received, I would continue too. Where I would stop posting is if someone told me (or if I got the feeling) that my advise was appreciated but not considered as a realistic option because of our different personalities/outlook on life.

 

 

Thanks, Stock....I'll bear that in mind......

 

You're welcome.

[burning 4 revenge]

Tara, I think you're brilliant, certainly one of the best, most wise posters here (not to mention one of the funniest!).

Are you sure youre not thinking of Taramere?

[norajane]

that's not really about sugar-coating your words, but being a bit more empathetic.

There are differences between direct and tough-love and harsh.

 

In the coiled leash/snake example, there was no tough love or harshness. His wife assessed the situation, told him to breathe (compassion/empathy), took his arm and turned on the lights (direct), so he could see for himself what was there.

 

Had she turned on the lights and said something like: "It's foolish to immediately think there might be a coiled snake on the couch in the house nowhere near snake territory. Your first thought should not be of snakes, but your phobia is making you irrational and you should get some help." That might come across as tough love.

 

And had she said something like: "It's your fault you carelessly left the leash on the couch and then you didn't even turn on the lights when you came in. What do you expect when you're both phobic and careless?" That would come across as harsh. Especially if she didn't turn on the lights and he was still frozen in fear believing there was a coiled snake on the couch poised to strike.

 

No advice makes a bit of difference unless people are open to hearing it. Some don't really come here for advice, but as a place to vent.

[TaraMaiden]

Are you sure youre not thinking of Taramere?

Very probably.... A fellow brit with a sound head on her shoulders, who talks a lot of common sense, with a no-nonsense and irrefutably logical approach.

 

Easy to make that error, the similarities are astonishing....

:laugh:

[Ariadne]

Are you sure youre not thinking of Taramere?

 

..........

[GrayClouds]

The only problem I have with you giving advice is that you take the advice of scam artists to begin with

 

http://www.cebitec.uni-bielefeld.de/gradschool/images/Dalai_Lama/dalai_lama.jpg

 

 

WOW it looks like someone has a chip on their shoulders...Oppps I just notice your screen name...never mind...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

'

[harmfulsweetz]

I like the direct, honest approach. It's more real, yet, I sometimes read your posts, and think, hm, bit harsh there. I understand and appreciate that you mean well, but when people are in difficult emotional stages in their lives, it's hard to see the woods for the trees. Sometimes they need someone to tell them as it is, but kindly, comfortingly. Obviously, some posters respond well to the direct, no-nonsense approach, but many don't. Many view it as harsh and as bashing. A personal criticism on them, an attack, basically another foot in the stomach. They need to hear it, but there's so many ways to post something and word something, that you can get the message across exactly the same, but with added kindness, and empathy. People often listen more to that than someone who simply tells it as it is. Because it feels good to read kind words, even if the message is honest, and brutal in itself.

 

I think each poster has different styles, some prefer the no-nonsense approach, others like the comforting, kind approach. I think it's wise to strike a balance between the two. I would always post something with 'you shouldn't have done that, but everyone makes mistakes.' I try and offer some of my personal experiences (if applicable) so that the OP knows I understand, and am not just bashing them for the sake of it. There's a line that must be struck between honesty and cruelty, or harshness, because it's one thing to come off as honest and direct, entirely another cruel and harsh.

 

JMHO though.