Chickensh*t

[NowhereToHide]

Lizzie I love your post and you know what I guess we can't have it all.

 

I have to agree I was not being emotionally satisfied in my M, physically yes, but emotionally I was not. What was strange about my A was that the actual sex turned out to be a huge disappointment, the emotional bond was great, kissing, talking, flirting, but in the sack I was not pleased. That became the big deal breaker as far as me wanting to leave my M because my H was so good in bed. Oh and you are right if there are kids in the picture I would say most will never leave the marriage. It was one of my main reasons.

 

Damn! Lady, I could have written these words exactly!

 

My affair was completely about me needing an emotional connection... that connection with my H has been gone for so many years. But sexually, my AP was horrible while my H is great. And, yes, the kids are always the biggest factor.

 

I told my xAP after the first two weeks that I wouldn't leave my family for him. Which is now why I believe that he ended it.... he didn't see it going anywhere so it wasn't worth the risk to his family. And like you, Lady, he did me a huge favor by ending it.

 

Now my challenge is to figure out if what I have in my marriage can be salvaged and improved enough so that we can be happy.

[blinded]

 

I never promised any of my MMs anything and they never promised me anything.. it's clear from the start..

 

I'm curious to find out how do your A's end? With a handshake? Do you at least know it's over? Or do you just stop hearing from them since there were never any promises?

[Lizzie60]

Hey now!! I guess I was "naive", but I had never been down that road before. I knew that couples had problems, that they got divorced, and that there was a process of doing so, having been through it before. So, in MY case, I thought just maybe I showed up early. And from EVERY action and word that she gave me, I had NO DOUBT that it would work out.... Now, over TIME, when things didnt change, is when I became the Stupidsh*t. And over that same time, when she didnt lift a f*cking finger to do anything is when she became Chickensh*t..

 

disagree with me all day if you want

 

Then.. I will.. I am just as stubborn as James..

I was 'naive' too at first.. but I was young.. 15.. I have that excuse..

[stampdaddy]

Then.. I will.. I am just as stubborn as James..

I was 'naive' too at first.. but I was young.. 15.. I have that excuse..

 

I was young too..... 37

[wheelwright]

EXACTLY!!! When I started this thread, it was exactly because of this, NOT to question good eggs like WW... But personally, I was promised a LIFE, I was promised and given her LOVE, I was promised a FUTURE...

and SO WAS HER HUSBAND

and she chose NEITHER.... CHICKENSH*T

and me, well STUPIDSH*T

 

I like what you are saying SD in so many ways. I want to feel like that about my xMOM.

 

I think the ones that promise are the most suspect of all. I would never have respected my MM if he had made such promises. That's the affair circus.

 

Just watch yourself. I really think that people who make promises they don't keep are deep in their own s**t. They haven't resolved things. You need to recognise that. It's not like we should judge those people, more like we should consider why. And it sure aint some thing like they are just sh*t - it's so much more complex.

 

But do you want to wave goodbye to your OW? Then go right ahead and bash her. What is your balanced opinion of how she behaves?

 

I know for me, I stopped trusting my xMOM. If you have stopped trusting her, then where to go?

[joybean72]

I haven't read all the responses, but yet I can tell how fustrated to are. As a BS I will reply though...I made the first move and filed Stamp. If she's not willing to do that, makes her a coward IMO. HOW the **** much longer are you going to do this ****? Do you not think you deserve much better??? I was heartbroken at the the time...but I am SO ****ing glad he let me go as well. In hindsight...

 

Be kind to yourself.

[Samantha0905]

The emotional and sexual connection with my AP was strong. Neither are there with my husband. I was separated when our PA started. I moved home when my apartment lease ran out. Why? I don't really know a particular reason, but know it had to do with love, a history together (33 years all together), children (adult), financial security, etc. Many things. I'm still not happy and unsure. I like unsure better than chicken****. I never made any promises and remained honest that I was always unsure to my AP.

[NoIDidn't]

I really agree with the WS/MP being a coward. But I disagree with the OP being stupid. I'm with Lizzie, naive is what I would call all first time affairees. Including the BS, if they find out.

 

But that naivete (how do you do those special characters?!!!) is the first thing lost over time. And I think that is what Stamp is getting at with his diagnosis of the MP.

 

At first the OP is feeling hopeful and takes them at their word. But after seeing numerous opportunities for them to do what they said they would do, the OP starts to see the MP for the coward that they really are.

 

I think more affairs are ended by the OPs than by the MPs. Many MPs just stay stuck and never make a decision. Which is a decision in and of itself to just stay where they are until something else knocks them off the fence.

[Samantha0905]

 

Some WSs who fall for their OP.. are most of the time, tortured between the life they want with their OP and the life they already have (kids, etc.). It's not easy.. and I don't see them as chicken sh*t.. I see them, in most cases, as people who are not sexually or emotionally satisfied in their own M.. but cannot make the big decision for some reason.. (and most of the time .. that reason is called 'children'..

 

There's a lot of truth in that -- and there are quite a few other things besides the children......

[Samantha0905]

I really agree with the WS/MP being a coward. But I disagree with the OP being stupid. I'm with Lizzie, naive is what I would call all first time affairees. Including the BS, if they find out.

 

But that naivete (how do you do those special characters?!!!) is the first thing lost over time. And I think that is what Stamp is getting at with his diagnosis of the MP.

 

At first the OP is feeling hopeful and takes them at their word. But after seeing numerous opportunities for them to do what they said they would do, the OP starts to see the MP for the coward that they really are.

 

I think more affairs are ended by the OPs than by the MPs. Many MPs just stay stuck and never make a decision. Which is a decision in and of itself to just stay where they are until something else knocks them off the fence.

 

But it's still pretty stupid to get involved with someone who is married. It's hard to use "naive" in relation to the marital status of the object of their affection if they knew from the beginning the person was married. Now, there is some naivety in believing the love of the affair will conquer all. That type of thinking totally negates the strength behind the history in the marriage. It may be a weakened marriage, but I think the history of a long term relationship is a force to be reckoned with and if you throw in children and other things -- it's a formidable force..

 

In any event, I think stupid applies to both the AP and MM or MW who is cheating. And I probably shouldn't have taken back chicken **** either, because wouldn't the non-chicken**** reaction to troubles in a marriage be to (a) work on the marriage and then, (b) either be happier in the marriage or get out of the marriage -- before seeing anyone else?

 

Unfortunately, people who feel something is lacking in their lives make very poor decisions at times.

 

I still don't get why a single person would get mixed up with a married person -- and no, I'm not passing judgment. I'm in no place to pass judgment on anyone.

 

Is there that much of a lack of single people out there? Maybe it just builds up over time -- meeting, playful flirting and/or friendship, then the big mistake.

 

In any event, from a WS point of view -- I always wondered if my OM would mess around with me knowing I was married, then who was to say he wouldn't mess around on me one day? Surely OM and OW have the same worries about their MM or MW with whom they are having an affair? The OW or OM may think it's not cheating, but they are cheating too and knowingly.

 

It's kind of ironic and deserved I'm sure. Those worries, I mean. Cheaters worrying about future cheating.

[her_halo_slipped]

back on topic: I'm thinking that those people who get sucked into affairs (and I say it because the married/taken person doesn't *quite* portray things honestly) are big-hearted people who deep down understand that the whole thing is wrong/not good, but because they have sincere feelings about their partners, cannot easily extricate themselves from those relationships.

 

Who says everyone is sucked into an affair? lol. U make it sound like a big jet engine just right up and sucked in a poor unsuspecting bird! And furtherdmore not ALL married/taken people don't quite portray things honestly.

 

meaning, not everyone who gets caught up in an affair is scuzzy, because if all the cards were on the table and they knew *everything* going in, they more than likely would have chosen differently.

 

I disagree. Some people DO know the facts straight up and they do chose the same.

In fact they wouldn't change a thing. Some AP's are HAPPY!!!

[stampdaddy]

back on topic: I'm thinking that those people who get sucked into affairs (and I say it because the married/taken person doesn't *quite* portray things honestly) are big-hearted people who deep down understand that the whole thing is wrong/not good, but because they have sincere feelings about their partners, cannot easily extricate themselves from those relationships.

 

Who says everyone is sucked into an affair? lol. U make it sound like a big jet engine just right up and sucked in a poor unsuspecting bird! And furtherdmore not ALL married/taken people don't quite portray things honestly.

 

meaning, not everyone who gets caught up in an affair is scuzzy, because if all the cards were on the table and they knew *everything* going in, they more than likely would have chosen differently.

 

I disagree. Some people DO know the facts straight up and they do chose the same.

In fact they wouldn't change a thing. Some AP's are HAPPY!!!

 

ummmm.. nobody said anything about a Jet Plane... I didnt say I was "sucked in". What I AM saying is that I NEVER EVER thought this would happen, this ending. I mean, again, sure there had to be great naiveness on my part, lesson learned. But here I am, writing this thread....

 

and yes, I know there are people that know straight up what they are getting into, I know I would NOW. And I wouldnt be happy at all, therefore, no thank you

[ladydesigner]

I really feel for you Stampdaddy and I hope life starts to get easier for you.

 

Be kind to yourself, these life lessons are DAMN hard. (((stampdaddy)))

 

Really deep down I don't think anyone involved in the A is TRULY happy. It is such a whirlwind of emotions and from what I remembered of my A was that the highs never outweighed the lows.

[OWoman]

All I am saying is that it ALWAYS happens this way... Ends up a pile of crap.

 

 

Call me pedantic, but I HAVE to point out that it doesn't always end up that way - I'm basking in total bliss, as we speak

 

And that, I think, is the problem - if it did ALWAYS end up badly, people would be less inclined to take the chance. But given that it does SOMETIMES work out, it creates just that sliver of hope that maybe, just maybe, your A can beat the odds and you can be one of the lucky ones too. And so people take on, and stay in, damaging Rs, in the hope that things might work out for them.

 

(And no, I'm not claiming that all As are "damaging", but some certainly are.)

[Owl]

You raise some good points, OW, but you raised one key one that I don't think that you yourself have considered.

 

You ARE the exception.

 

You're right...affair partners always hold on to that desperate hope that they'll end up winning the lottery, just like you have.

 

But should we encourage people to go spend all their money on the lottery in the hopes that they'll be the one to "beat the odds" and win millions enough to support them the rest of their lives?

 

No...in fact, most people would cry out against those that would encourage people to do that as being horribly irresponsible in telling someone to take that kind of risk.

 

Just because YOU "beat the odds" still doesn't mean that the huge numbers of others out there will end up with your success story...or even anything remotely close to it.

 

We've seen over and over here how this plays out for the vast majority of people...broken hearts all the way around.

 

I would agree that it's not "ALWAYS" the case that the whole thing ends in tragedy for everyone...but it's "nearly always"...and that people should seriously listen to those that advise them to realize that their situation will ALMOST certainly end up going that way as well.

 

I'd also add that all "A's" ARE INDEED damaging...to someone. I'm sure that your husband's ex-wife likely feels "damaged" by the affair in some fashion. I know that most BS's would feel that they were "damaged" by the affair...just as I know that many former WS's tend to end up feeling that way as well. And look at the sheer number of wounded OW's here....damaged in the aftermath.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Owl

[jennie-jennie]

You raise some good points, OW, but you raised one key one that I don't think that you yourself have considered.

 

You ARE the exception.

 

You're right...affair partners always hold on to that desperate hope that they'll end up winning the lottery, just like you have.

 

But should we encourage people to go spend all their money on the lottery in the hopes that they'll be the one to "beat the odds" and win millions enough to support them the rest of their lives?

 

No...in fact, most people would cry out against those that would encourage people to do that as being horribly irresponsible in telling someone to take that kind of risk.

 

Just because YOU "beat the odds" still doesn't mean that the huge numbers of others out there will end up with your success story...or even anything remotely close to it.

 

That is why an extramarital relationship should always be about the journey not the destination.

 

My exSO is a compulsive gambler, so I hate gambling, I have seen all the negative consequences of it. I certainly do not consider my EMR gambling. I am in this relationship as long as the benefits outweigh the consequences, as long as I am happier in this relationship than out of it.

[OWW]

That is why an extramarital relationship should always be about the journey not the destination.

 

I am in this relationship as long as the benefits outweigh the consequences, as long as I am happier in this relationship than out of it.

 

Here Here (or is it hear, hear?)! Either way, well said.

 

It is silly to figure out where we are going until we get there.

 

And yes, I intend to stay while there is more happiness being in it than there would be if it ended. Generally a good idea for all relationships, I think, whether they are As or more "socially acceptable".

 

Many of the issues discussed here are just basic relationship issues themselves where the A is only another layer on top.

[moaningmyrtle]

...causes me to think of of another type of bird... vultures.

 

I'm sorry to say this but sometimes in my own darker moments I think of my H's OW as a vulture but with her own face shaped to have a vulture beak; on a vulture's body.

 

I imagine that she is there hovering around us just waiting for our marriage to die so she can swoop in and feed off the remains.

 

Not a very flattering analogy I know but I only conjure up this vision in my darkest moments.

 

I guess it helps me to know that I'm one of the ones that never have and never will knowingly become an other women. ...because I don't want to see my own distorted face on the vulture. Given I'm well into my 50s and was a part of the free-love generation of the late 1960s and 1970s I think I can safely say never.

Edited December 18, 2009 by moaningmyrtle

[jennie-jennie]

Given I'm well into my 50s and was a part of the free-love generation of the late 1960s and 1970s I think I can safely say never.

 

LOL You just described me! Just wait until you are divorced and the only available good men are married men! Then this old sweetheart (who happens to be married) from your past turns up... and voila... you are the OW!

[moaningmyrtle]

LOL You just described me! Just wait until you are divorced and the only available good men are married men! Then this old sweetheart (who happens to be married) from your past turns up... and voila... you are the OW!

 

No you and I are very different even if we are of a similar age.

 

I may one day be divorced - I hope not, but given my H's track record I have to consider the possibility. I married very late in life (age 36) and have had enough opportunities with MM while I was both single and married to know that I will never knowingly be an OW.

 

A man married to someone else and willing to have an A with me will never be a man that I would consider 'good' for me, in my opinion. I would rather be single than be with a MM as an OW. I have been very happy as a single woman at different stages of my life.

 

As I already said I don't want to be somebody hanging around waiting for someone else's marriage to die - or to put it more euphemistically (as others have): "waiting for him to be ready to leave his marriage". I would consider it vulture-like behaviour and disgusting for me to do.

[White Flower]

Hey stamp.... told ya so.

Reboot! You're back! Where have you been lurking???

[White Flower]

Amen to everything you said SD....I totally agree with everything, but just remember one thing I was a MM seeing a MW and left my marriage and got my divorce. So I guess that makes me the one in 1000?

That makes you a man who knows what he wants and makes it happen. You ain't confused no more.

[OWoman]

But should we encourage people to go spend all their money on the lottery in the hopes that they'll be the one to "beat the odds" and win millions enough to support them the rest of their lives?

 

No...in fact, most people would cry out against those that would encourage people to do that as being horribly irresponsible in telling someone to take that kind of risk.

 

Owl, I think there's a HUGE difference between telling someone to take the risk - if they're wanting a "happy ever after" outcome - when the odds are heavily stacked against them, and advising someone - who's already in an A, or who's considering embarking on an A "just for some light fun" - how best to make the situation they're in work for them. They're two very different things.

 

If someone wants some light, no-strings fun on the side, and they're aware of all the risks and have taken all the potential consequences on board - and then some - and they're still prepared to go through with it, well then, I'd be a hypocrite to damn them to hell. OTC, I've had a great many wonderful years like that, and I'm not going to pretend that that didn't work for me insofar as that was what I wanted at the time. If that is what they want, fair enough.

 

Similarly, if someone is already in an A, and it's at least in part working for them, I'm not going to advise them to run screaming from it unless they're ready or wanting to do that. But I will advise them, as best as I can, what to watch out for, how to minimise their pain or how to make the R work better for them - or, if it can't, to make an informed choice on whether what they have is enough (to continue putting up with the pain) or whether to accept that it's never going to be enough, and to consider the alternative (leaving).

 

But, if someone is in an A that's clearly not working for them, or working for them only in a clearly dysfunctional way, then I don't see anyone encouraging them to stick it out. No one likes to see someone here suffer (well, perhaps some of the haters enjoy that kind of thing, but none of the normal people do) and so they're not going to be encouraging someone to do themselves further damage. THAT would be irresponsible, IMO.

 

Just because YOU "beat the odds" still doesn't mean that the huge numbers of others out there will end up with your success story...or even anything remotely close to it.

 

We've seen over and over here how this plays out for the vast majority of people...broken hearts all the way around.

 

I would agree that it's not "ALWAYS" the case that the whole thing ends in tragedy for everyone...but it's "nearly always"...and that people should seriously listen to those that advise them to realize that their situation will ALMOST certainly end up going that way as well.

 

If you read my post, you'll see that that's not all that different from what I was saying.

 

I'd also add that all "A's" ARE INDEED damaging...to someone. I'm sure that your husband's ex-wife likely feels "damaged" by the affair in some fashion.

 

On that point - she's been damaged forever. That was part of her original attraction, to both her xHs. They both thought they could fix her, and they both landed up becoming damaged themselves in the process, while she refused to consider herself damaged in anyway and refused to seek any kind of professional help. But, post-D, I hear she did feel "damaged" enough to seek some kind of counselling. I'm not sure if she's stuck with it this time, but I really do hope so. And, frankly, I consider that a positive outcome of the A - I don't care what got her into counselling, as long as she got there, and got the help she so desperately needs. For everyone's sake.

[OWoman]

I am in this relationship as long as the benefits outweigh the consequences, as long as I am happier in this relationship than out of it.

 

Which is the best way to approach any R. Once the costs outweigh the benefits, it's time to go.

 

And the costs, and benefits, of any R are known best to those inside it - not all factors are weighted equally by all people.

[tami-chan]

I think that it's highly likely that MW's and MM's are more gutless than the general population is when they involve themselves in affairs.

.

 

or not...maybe they are just people who are willing and unafraid to put their marriages on the line because they have weighed the odds and the odds are they will probably get away with it...or that the betrayed spouse will probably not leave....pain, hurt, anger...notwithstanding...