With all this pain we seem to cause each other ..

[karnak]

I soon became a sounding board. "Why do men do this or that?" Yes they were starving for attention. Especially in the the bedroom. Lack of sex was the most common complaint. And I can tell you they were all very attractive. Most of them were unhappy in their marriages, were trying to get the H's to notice them, and were wanting their H's into MC. They were all scared of moving out and living alone. That was the only thing keeping them at home

 

Why do people act like children and expect to solve their problems with sex? This I don't understand. Sex only lasts about 15 min.

I guess sex must be the only way a couple feels like they're "in touch" when they stop communication and feel they're not emotionally connected anymore.

Regardless of how good a partner looks a man or a woman will always, in the long run, get tired of his/her partner's body. The only way this won't happen is if there's some sort of emotional attachment.

 

The first WAW was one you would have never suspected. She had met her H in college, he had been her first and only, they were both successful, and very happily married. Their goal was to buy a house, then pay off all of their college loans, build a nest egg and begin having kids. Their goals were met and coming up on their fifth wedding anniversary, they had decided it was now time to begin having kids. The plan was that they would try their best to conceive their first child on the night of their anniversary. They made reservations for an out of town romantic get away. Two days before the weekend the H informed her his buddy had heard that there was to be a poker tournament in Vegas (poker tournaments were in their infancy). He canceled their plans and went to Vegas with his buddy. He came back to an empty house.

 

She came back to work on Monday and told the flock "bigger was better" and the other dominos began to fall

 

People are looney and childish (sigh).

[EcstasyX6]

"Why do people act like children and expect to solve their problems with sex? This I don't understand. Sex only lasts about 15 min.

I guess sex must be the only way a couple feels like they're "in touch" when they stop communication and feel they're not emotionally connected anymore.

Regardless of how good a partner looks a man or a woman will always, in the long run, get tired of his/her partner's body. The only way this won't happen is if there's some sort of emotional attachment."

 

Er, um maybe for you. Even when my STBX were intimate, we averaged an hour even when I had lost physical attraction for him. It didn't solve problems, but helped us stay bonded...for awhile anyway. Sex is more important to some people than others, and find that it's an integral part of a relationship and way to connect with their partner. It's extremely frustrating to have a partner not be able to meet your needs. I've learned by reading posts here, that being sexually mismatched can lead to big problems.

 

However, if the quantity and/or quality of sex is the only issue of concern, and a couple's relationship is otherwise sound, it would seem to be fixable problem.

[karnak]

[quote=EcstasyX6;2555665

 

Er, um maybe for you. Even when my STBX were intimate, we averaged an hour even when I had lost physical attraction for him. It didn't solve problems, but helped us stay bonded...for awhile anyway. Sex is more important to some people than others, and find that it's an integral part of a relationship and way to connect with their partner. It's extremely frustrating to have a partner not be able to meet your needs. I've learned by reading posts here, that being sexually mismatched can lead to big problems.

 

However, if the quantity and/or quality of sex is the only issue of concern, and a couple's relationship is otherwise sound, it would seem to be fixable problem.

 

Yes, the sex issue differs from one people to another. From what I've read in some posts of yours I think sex is very important to you in a relationship.

Yet, unlike some people, I find myself unable to make sex with a person I don't feel a strong connection to.

[2.50 a gallon]

Simon:

 

"Why do women do this . . . ?"

 

I sure did, and I did get some ideas, but like their questions for me, sometimes they did not have an answer.

 

Here is one for you, "Why doesn't my H go down on me? He sure spent a lot of time down there before we got married. Now, his version of oral sex is a BJ"

 

And the answer is ____________?

 

No they were not playing sexual games and witholding sex, in fact it was the opposite, they were wondering why their H's were no longer interested in sex. The ladies were truly frustrated. I was the one who went with them to the adult store, as they were uncomfortable about going by themselves. It was an eye opener for them, and yes they did make purchases.

 

Next question, why would a man mock his wife for raising guppys, even if they were only plain guppys? Why not take an interest in her life? She went to most of his races. And I got to know him quite well, as I tried to help him with his race car. He had no chance, and yet he continued to put all of their money into that pit, instead of investing for their future, and putting money in their kids college fund.

 

Yes after the first one stepped out, and survived the other two quickly followed. All 3 of the H's saw the light and tried to win them back but it was too late. They weren't being vindictive, they no longer cared, and as they put it "too scared" to try again. Afraid that the H would eventually go back to his old ways.

 

Karnak

 

I have yet to meet a woman who wanted to live in a large house, A three bedroom with a den was more than enough for them. They have their own jobs, then do almost all of the cooking and cleaning, and any more rooms would have been just more work.

 

As to men, have you not heard the old saying "The difference between men and boys is the size of their toys" I've seen men go out and buy the biggest 4x truck with all of the whistles, bells and rims, not because they would actually use the truck to haul things, but because it was the manly thing to do.

 

Hey I am just as guilty. I had one of the badest El Caminos you could buy, a formula race car, an RV and half interest in a boat. The wife, a little Datsun

Edited December 24, 2009 by 2.50 a gallon
missing word

[Simon Attwood]

Simon:

 

"Why do women do this . . . ?"

 

I sure did, and I did get some ideas, but like their questions for me, sometimes they did not have an answer.

 

Here is one for you, "Why doesn't my H go down on me? He sure spent a lot of time down there before we got married. Now, his version of oral sex is a BJ"

 

And the answer is ____________?

 

No they were not playing sexual games and witholding sex, in fact it was the opposite, they were wondering why their H's were no longer interested in sex. The ladies were truly frustrated. I was the one who went with them to the adult store, as they were uncomfortable about going by themselves. It was an eye opener for them, and yes they did make purchases.

 

Next question, why would a man mock his wife for raising guppys, even if they were only plain guppys? Why not take an interest in her life? She went to most of his races. And I got to know him quite well, as I tried to help him with his race car. He had no chance, and yet he continued to put all of their money into that pit, instead of investing for their future, and putting money in their kids college fund.

 

Yes after the first one stepped out, and survived the other two quickly followed. All 3 of the H's saw the light and tried to win them back but it was too late. They weren't being vindictive, they no longer cared, and as they put it "too scared" to try again. Afraid that the H would eventually go back to his old ways.

 

Gallon,

 

There are no simple answers to your questions.

 

I used sexual value games as one example of many. The drive/instinct to play these games (and by game, i am not inferring that it is played in any sense for fun, but rather to achieve an unconscious goal, a result, that the person is not at all consciously aware of desiring) is totally unconscious. And not only is it unconscious, in order to defend our illusion of authorship over our selves, we will often, violently if necessary, defend our illusion of self agency and deny any involvement of something within us that we are not in control of, or that is "not us".

 

One of the best answers I have come up with so far comes from Daniel Goleman's book; Vital Lies, Simple Truths; The Psychology of Self Deception.

 

But it is such a complex issue that there is not one answer that our minds are equipped to comprehend. We can only answer the question in small snippets, because the human brain is incapable of understanding itself consciously. Only when we begin to see without the clouding of consciousness and ego, does the veil begin to lift.

 

"The Total bath of brain chemicals in the stress response elegantly (and unconsciously and automatically) prepares a person to deal with danger. In early evolution, this meant either fight or flight. After the danger passed, the body could relax. But with the advent of civilisation, neither fight nor flight are called for with any regularity, if at all. More often than not, we are left to stew in this bath of chemicals. As pain enters the psychological domain, it's source becomes more abstract and diffuse. A lion's bite is specific; it can be dealt with decisively. If one gets the opportunity: flee, or if trapped, the body floods with endorphins 100s of times more powerful that morphine, which in effects numbs awareness to the point of detachment. But mental pain is more elusive. Financial woes, an uncommunicative spouse, existential angst - none of these stressors necessarily yields to a single simple solution. Neither fight nor flight is satisfactory; the fight could make matters a lot worse, the flight even more so. Therefore the simple fight or flight mechanism is vastly inadequate in dealing with the complexities of modern fears.

 

While stress arousal is a fitting mode to meet an emergency, as an ongoing state it is a disaster. Sustained stress arousal leads to pathology: anxiety states or psychosomatic disorders such as hypertension. These diseases are end products of the stress response, the cost of an unrelenting readiness for emergency.

 

That response is in reaction to the perception of threat. Tuning out the threat is one way to short circuit stress arousal. Indeed, for those dangers and pains that are mental, selective attention offers relief. Denial is the psychological analogue of the endorphin attentional tune out. I contend that denial, in it's many forms, is an analgesic, too."

 

Daniel Goleman

 

And Jung; Paths in Psychology;

 

We know that the wildest and most moving dramas are played not in the theatre but in the hearts of ordinary men and women who pass by without exciting attention, and who betray to the world nothing of the conflicts that rage within them except possibly by a nervous breakdown. What is so difficult for the layman to grasp is the fact that in most cases the patients themselves have no suspicion whatever of the internecine war raging in their unconscious. If we remember that there are many people who understand nothing at all about themselves, we shall be less surprised at the realization that there are also people who are utterly unaware of their actual conflicts.

 

and Erich Fromm; Fear of Freedom;

 

Life has an inner dynamism of it's own; it tends to grow, to be expressed, to be lived. It seems that if this tendency is thwarted (by others, or perhaps by ones own unconscious fears) the energy directed towards life undergoes a process of decomposition and changes in to energies directed towards destruction. In other words the drive for life and the drive for destruction are not mutually independent factors but are in a reversed interdependence. The more the drive towards life is thwarted, the stronger is the drive towards destruction; the more life is realised, the less is the strength of destructiveness. Destructiveness is the outcome of unlived life. Those individual and social conditions that make for the suppression of life produce the passion for destruction that forms, so to speak, the reservoir from which particular hostile tendencies - either against others or against oneself - are nourished.

 

The answer is out there in many forms, but it is only when we start putting the pieces together in ourselves, do we begin to feel the answer. And yes, feel is the right word here, because the answer cannot be expressed in words in it's totality due to the limitation of the word, and the limitations of human comprehension.

 

I suggest that all of the examples that you list above, are symptoms of the states suggested in the quotes I have attached.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Simon Attwood

[Simon Attwood]

I am going to rekindle this one

 

I've had a bit of an epiphany moment in my studies thanks to Sue Gerhardt

 

It has focused me away from only seeing the symptoms and trying to decypher them, towards seeing the root cause of all problems of behavioural and emotional instabilities.

 

I strongly suggest, to anyone who has or is experiencing a relationship with someone who appears to have behavioural and emotional instabilities to give this book a read. Even if you think to yourself that your wife/husband/significant other occasionally behaves irrationally or if you have fights in your relationships and wonder to yourself "how did that start?". If you have had a husband, wife, boyfriend or girlfriend walk/run away, or try to push you away. If you yourself have behavioural problems that you are aware of yet don't truly understand.

 

This site is so full of stories of relationship conflicts, and we so like to give it this name, or that name, or give our significant other half's behaviour a label like; WAW, WAH, Borderline, BPD, DNP, etc. here we are only labelling the symptoms and not the cause, the biochemical seed that was sewn in the beginning, and that flowered in to so many varieties of comforting taxonomies.

 

Read Sue Gerhardt's book

 

Please.

[You Go Girl]

Did you reply "why do women do this or that?"

 

see my earlier posts on "sexual value" games.

 

Women withold intimacy as a means of getting more attention and raise their sexual value. The thinking (if you can call it that) is that; the harder the man will work for it, the greater my value is to him. this is actually driven by a low core value in themselves.

 

Subsequently, the male is getting subconscious signals of "Keep your distance physically and emotionally". The female is actually pushing the male away which is totally counterproductive to her aims. Sexual value games nearly always backfire.

 

Because the female's motive for her behaviour is unconscious, she is not aware that she is manipulating the male and pushing him away emotionally and physically. So she blames it on him and says he doesn't pay her enough attention.

 

I have a lot to say about this thread, great thread!

But first I must address the above, because it is SO OFF.

Women do not withhold sex as some type of bargaining tool. So many men think that, and they are WRONG.

Women withhold sex when their man acts as if he is entitled to it, without making the warm loving connection emotionally beforehand. This irks women to NO END. We refuse to be treated as an object, we've been over this on countless threads, yet some still don't get it. The perfect example is the H who angrily complains to his wife that she's not giving him enough sex. think about it. Anger as a means of wooing? I think NOT. Who wouldn't rebel to that kind of wooing? Umm..it's not wooing, that's why!

 

And the line I underlined above in Simon's post--that women have a low core value? hahaha...you gotta be kidding. Women withhold sex from an angry demanding partner because they have a HIGH CORE VALUE. Yeah, that withholding to a demand for sex is an assertion of her self-esteem, not a lack of it.

Men who demand, or become angry and complain about their sex lives, in a wife's view--have just declared sexual war. Sex is now a battleground, for someone to win, and someone to lose.

What H gets a lot of sex? Simply a warm loving one who NEVER complains or acts as if the W isn't meeting some duty.

You want more sex? Simply let out the sweet loving mushy guy inside you, caress and rub up against her, bring out that side of her that finds that sweet boy in you irresistable and unable to deny.

You want less sex? Complain angrily about it===WAR!

Edited August 15, 2010 by You Go Girl

[You Go Girl]

and Erich Fromm; Fear of Freedom;

 

 

Quote:

Life has an inner dynamism of it's own; it tends to grow, to be expressed, to be lived. It seems that if this tendency is thwarted (by others, or perhaps by ones own unconscious fears) the energy directed towards life undergoes a process of decomposition and changes in to energies directed towards destruction. In other words the drive for life and the drive for destruction are not mutually independent factors but are in a reversed interdependence. The more the drive towards life is thwarted, the stronger is the drive towards destruction; the more life is realised, the less is the strength of destructiveness. Destructiveness is the outcome of unlived life. Those individual and social conditions that make for the suppression of life produce the passion for destruction that forms, so to speak, the reservoir from which particular hostile tendencies - either against others or against oneself - are nourished.

 

Now this, is excellent. I was a WAW in my first marriage. I imploded. I can't think of any other word to describe it--absolute marital suicide, destruction having almost no bounds. It was very scary. I didn't even understand what I was doing. I didn't know my motivations. I do remember saying one thing over and over again to people--"I don't want to be defined by this person any longer".

WAW's, and I'm sure WAH's too, will get off on some extreme high of destruction. It is true, I did it. It caused me much pain many years later when I finally took a look at what I had done, and then, it was crushing, and depression was severe.

I can say that my exH's role partly was what Gallon has so eloquently pointed out in several posts. The man who won't dance with his W for example, but waves his W on to dance with other men. The W doesn't ONLY view this as a rejection of dancing, period, no, she views this as dancing with my W isn't important, I have no need for romance, and I am rejecting my W on a certain level.

Many little scenarios played out like this. My exH had zero interest in romance of any kind. Was he flawed? No...he was innocently ignorant, and I can say that for sure as a much older more mature woman. I don't blame him for that, for not innately realizing the dynamics of staying together as a couple were unknown to him.

It is very scary how many WAW's there are, it seems far more than WAH's. The stories are so familiar, that is scary too. We are onto something if we examine this deeply. We might, were we to really use our brains here, put together a thread that would finally have this figured out to a degree that it could be printed and handed to W's in the process of walking away, and they would see themselves outlined to such a degree that their could be no more denial, and marriages might be saved.

It would take some real work on our part to do this, but I think it could be done.

[blizzard]

I like what 2.50 gallon says...

 

Marriage does take a work. But I think the work should come before the marriage is in shambles. By then, it's really too late. The love is gone. Resentent sets in.

 

I am not sure if I classify myself as a walkway wife. Maybe loosely because I am still in the marriage but seperated and living under the same roof (because you do what you have to do when kids are involved). I just lost it one day during an argument/mistreatment and I broke. Spewed it all out. I wanted a seperation. He was taken back...and accused me of an affair because lord forbid how could I have just let go like this so "suddenly". How could I have just been this unhappy? Actually he accused me of doing a 360 in our marriage. I found myself telling my husband in these exact words that I was tired of walking in his shadow...a doormat, piece of the furniture and I had lost me. Yes, like you go girl said, I was tired of him defining me. He was always better at everything, knew everything and did his own thing. He hated my friends. So we did things with his friends and I was just "his wife." I felt like so awkward to be around other married couples because we never fit in. No, he never asked me to dance while they did. I would go dance alone. Pathetic. I recall when I took up running...I ran my first race. Finally something for me! He tried so hard to steal my thunder. Telling me that yeah, I can outrun you because I am faster...you couldn't beat me in a 40yard dash! I challenge you. So it got to the point that I had too.

 

We went to counseling. Didn't do any good. He still remained closed off. Swearing an affair was happening. He tried doing the dishes, buying flowers. But that wasn't the root of the problem! He even took me for an overnight date night. Which was great, he got me out of the house!? But my heart sank because he went into a story about his friend's wife affair that happened 10yrs ago. When he walked me to the room, I was hoping he would take my hand...maybe walk along with me...nope. We were intimate that night. And sex felt like sex. I cried. And he looked me in the eyes and asked me if were having an affair. He just couldn't fathom the way I had been feeling for so long I guess. So a year later, I had an affair. I gave up on us.

 

So maybe I am a walkway to a degree. I am flat out amazed after reading all the posts how everything that has been said I have said it or felt it. WAW situation has to do with failed communication really. I didn't know how to argue aggressively. I despise confrontation. And I didn't know how to talk to him. He is a closed off individual. I tried showing/discussing my unhappiness for years. Crying behind bathroom doors because he would say that I took everything too personally. He would sweep every argument under the rug and pretend it never existed. And all of what 2.50 gallon said applies as well.

The walkaway wife does try. She tries for years. But sometimes he just refuses to listen.

Edited August 15, 2010 by blizzard

[Simon Attwood]

But that wasn't the root of the problem!

What was the root?

But sometimes he just refuses to listen.

What was he supposed to be listening to? I've heard this one and variations of it, often, but often when asked "what were you trying to tell them?" the woman has stuggled to answer; as if she may have had something to say, but just couldn't put it in to words. It wasn't because he wouldn't listen at all, it was because she couldn't put in to words the feelings she was trying to express.

 

I've often suggested that the root cause of all relationship conflicts, are internal conflicts within the individuals within the relationship. This works in business relationships as much as it does romantic ones. It works in all conflict, whether between individuals, groups, or even countries. These internal conflicts are often caused by what is now being referred to as cortisol dysfunction. All our feelings are rooted in chemical processes in the brain. Simply put, chemicals and receptors like cortisol and norepinephrine, give an uneasy feeling and are involved in the fear function, disgust and distaste, repulsion, etc. Chemicals like Serotonin and Dopamine are responsible for feeling good. A cortisol dysfunction usually has it's roots in the way the foetus and infants brain develops and the development relies upon stimulus. Once developed (late infancy) the pattern is more or less set and unchangeable. A brain that lacks the skills of regulating it's chemicals, skills that are learned in early nurture, lacks the skills to regulate it's emotional world. This can certainly lead, in it's extreme, to disorders in some people, but in others that cannot adequately regulate these chemicals, they get feelings that often need expressing, feelings that conflict with other feelings or environments, an explanation needs to be given to the conscious mind for these otherwise inexplicable feelings, we will often create external conflict as a way of releasing these internal feelings. We will invent things to fight about yet give ourselves rational explanations and situations to blame them on. Explanations and situations that to others, might seem totally without basis and maybe even irrational.

 

So many conflicts in relationships start this way. And they are maintained because the person does not want to let go of the "story" she or he has told herself or himself because that would threaten the illusion and myth of self authorship that has been the backbone of our social world. No one likes to be thrown in to a world where they have to face that they do not make their own choices, but rather these choices are made by mechanisms within us, that are hidden from our perception of our image.

 

And so many relationships have ended because of this.

[Simon Attwood]

I have a lot to say about this thread, great thread!

But first I must address the above, because it is SO OFF.

Women do not withhold sex as some type of bargaining tool. So many men think that, and they are WRONG.

Women withhold sex when their man acts as if he is entitled to it, without making the warm loving connection emotionally beforehand. This irks women to NO END. We refuse to be treated as an object, we've been over this on countless threads, yet some still don't get it. The perfect example is the H who angrily complains to his wife that she's not giving him enough sex. think about it. Anger as a means of wooing? I think NOT. Who wouldn't rebel to that kind of wooing? Umm..it's not wooing, that's why!

 

And the line I underlined above in Simon's post--that women have a low core value? hahaha...you gotta be kidding. Women withhold sex from an angry demanding partner because they have a HIGH CORE VALUE. Yeah, that withholding to a demand for sex is an assertion of her self-esteem, not a lack of it.

Men who demand, or become angry and complain about their sex lives, in a wife's view--have just declared sexual war. Sex is now a battleground, for someone to win, and someone to lose.

What H gets a lot of sex? Simply a warm loving one who NEVER complains or acts as if the W isn't meeting some duty.

You want more sex? Simply let out the sweet loving mushy guy inside you, caress and rub up against her, bring out that side of her that finds that sweet boy in you irresistable and unable to deny.

You want less sex? Complain angrily about it===WAR!

 

I think the first bit you have underlined probably is more personal. Some women surely play this game, just as some men play their games too. We all play games, many many games; you should look up Eric Berne; The Games People Play. for an insight in to Transactional Analysis.

 

The second bit you underline; The phrase "An assertion of self esteem" is exactly what sexual value games are all about. If you need to assert yourself, then you are trying to raise yourself, i.e. raise your value, whether it is in another's mind, or your own.

[BetweenHere&There]

Women withold intimacy as a means of getting more attention and raise their sexual value. The thinking (if you can call it that) is that; the harder the man will work for it, the greater my value is to him. this is actually driven by a low core value in themselves.

 

We all play games, many many games; you should look up Eric Berne; The Games People Play. for an insight in to Transactional Analysis.

 

The second bit you underline; The phrase "An assertion of self esteem" is exactly what sexual value games are all about. If you need to assert yourself, then you are trying to raise yourself, i.e. raise your value, whether it is in another's mind, or your own.

 

Whoa!! I feel a little bit of a mind game on this topic going on here. A woman withholds sex due to low self value (esteem) but if she asserts herself in the relationship because a man is devaluing her self worth, again she is exhibiting low self esteem...is that what I am reading here between these lines?

 

I realize that the topic is about withholding sex in a relationship and the premise is that women do this as a perceived punishment to a man; however, I do not see where there is recognition that perhaps the man is placing a higher value on the bedroom than all the other things that a woman brings to a relationship.

 

I tend to agree with YGG's analogy that if a woman feels like an object, or a man tends to treat her as having "ownership" of her, a game of wills does develop. In my own marriage, I do not recall withholding sex as a game of wills or a means of punishment; however, I did feel that this was the only value my ex placed on our relationship. It did build up resentment and I openly challenged why this was the only time that my ex seemed to value my contributions to our marriage. As information, if a woman is able to openly discuss with their husband what makes them feel happy and valued, it behooves a man to not listen to this and have an adult discussion concerning those issues, instead of retaliating with his own complaints of lack of sex (which tends to be the typical complaint as most men tend to perceive that everyone else is having sex except them).

 

As to transactional analysis, Parent - Adult - Child, if a man spends his time in the relationship ignoring the emotional needs of his partner and the developmental needs of the relationship I can see how a woman asserting herself (becoming the Parent or the Adult) can damage the male counterparts Child ego. This may, in turn, be due to a man's own low self esteem that he is not able to make an Adult connection to his wife.....perhaps stuck in a state of the game of Parent/Child or Child/Parent. I can attest that this happened in my marriage as I never felt that my ex and I ever reached Adult to Adult TA.

[You Go Girl]

I think the first bit you have underlined probably is more personal. Some women surely play this game, just as some men play their games too. We all play games, many many games; you should look up Eric Berne; The Games People Play. for an insight in to Transactional Analysis.

 

The second bit you underline; The phrase "An assertion of self esteem" is exactly what sexual value games are all about. If you need to assert yourself, then you are trying to raise yourself, i.e. raise your value, whether it is in another's mind, or your own.

 

It's really not personal. It's rather universal with women. However, calling it a "game" is incorrect. There is no gaming involved in this. Withholding sex because the emotional connection hasn't been made is not a game, simply a choice, as in --I am not interested in the sex for sex's sake. I have read the games people play.

On the second bit, NO. You are incorrect. To assert oneself is not trying to raise oneself. It is a demand as to how others may treat us, as in, You will treat me this way, you will not treat me that way. To assert oneself is not a game either. To imply that everytime a person asserts themself they are playing a game is twisted. Some people simply have a standard, a bar of respect that they demand be met if there is to be any relationship at all. When I'm playing a game, there is room for winning, losing, or draw. In this case, there's no game because I'm not playing. I'm serious, and it is non-negotiable.

[You Go Girl]

As to transactional analysis, Parent - Adult - Child, if a man spends his time in the relationship ignoring the emotional needs of his partner and the developmental needs of the relationship I can see how a woman asserting herself (becoming the Parent or the Adult) can damage the male counterparts Child ego. This may, in turn, be due to a man's own low self esteem that he is not able to make an Adult connection to his wife.....perhaps stuck in a state of the game of Parent/Child or Child/Parent. I can attest that this happened in my marriage as I never felt that my ex and I ever reached Adult to Adult TA.

 

My gawd, that's frickin' BRILLIANT!

You so NAILED IT.

[BetweenHere&There]

My gawd, that's frickin' BRILLIANT!

You so NAILED IT.

 

Gracias....I have also read "Games people play"...a required reading in the business world if you are a woman. In addition, both Freud and Berne are referenced in many group therapy sessions in psychology. Another good book to read is If Life is a Game, These are the Rules by Cherie Carter-Scott, Ph.D.

 

Unfortunately, in the game of life too many people attach the word "game" to love and relationships. If there truly is love there, then there should not be a game but a quiet comfort of the embodiment of two people at peace with each other. If a man or a woman feels the need to assert themselves in the relationship, then the other partner should attempt to respect that and understand the reason behind it. That is adult to adult TA.

 

Are we all capable of it...no, emotional stability gets thrown into the mix, and as much as men would not like to admit it, women are not as emotionally unstable as men would like to think...men have the same issues and insecurities as women do. Events can rock any persons' stability to the inner core.

 

As an example, a man criticizes or berates his wife but expects her to later become a tigress in the bedroom that same day, did she become the victim of her own low self esteem or did she become the victim of a Parent/Child TA? She is as unwilling to submit as a man would be to submit to changing a light bulb if he were berated by his wife. It's not a game of wills, but it is a transactional, or reciprocal, event.

[Woggle]

I just think that for many women love has an expiration date. Once the initial chemical high wears off they are done and there is nothing a man can do about it.

[BetweenHere&There]

I just think that for many women love has an expiration date. Once the initial chemical high wears off they are done and there is nothing a man can do about it.

 

Wow, that is a sad statement Woggle. I would say that a woman's intuition runs fairly high as the relationship changes. All relationships do change....staying on a "chemical high" for 30 to 50 years is impossible on either the man or the woman's side of the equation.

 

Once a woman senses that a man's chemical high wears off, which it does as well, what is the next step? Giving up or moving the relationship to a new level? If both are not on the same page, I could see how your perception is that a woman gives love with an expiration date.

[Woggle]

Wow, that is a sad statement Woggle. I would say that a woman's intuition runs fairly high as the relationship changes. All relationships do change....staying on a "chemical high" for 30 to 50 years is impossible on either the man or the woman's side of the equation.

 

Once a woman senses that a man's chemical high wears off, which it does as well, what is the next step? Giving up or moving the relationship to a new level? If both are not on the same page, I could see how your perception is that a woman gives love with an expiration date.

 

It is a sad statement but it is true. How else can you explain the WAW epidemic. Now that women have their independence they are walking which shows most never loved us in the first place.

[candymoon]

I think a lot of time here is spent trying to rationalize what can never be rationalized. Emotions by definition are irrational. How I feel about this makes no sense to you because you feel like that about it. Marriage dynamics are based on our experiences in life before and during a union, as part of how we shape our internal and external worlds, which is as individual as blades of grass.

 

One couple might have an adult/child relationship, another can have two domineering and opposing POVs, another can have issues of abuse. One of the spouse's could withhold sex for these reasons and a myriad of others. It's all a crazy slice of chaos we call life. The best bet is to 'know theyself' before settling into something with someone for the long haul...

 

Of course we don't do this. Hell, I didn't.

[blizzard]

Gracias....I have also read "Games people play"...a required reading in the business world if you are a woman. In addition, both Freud and Berne are referenced in many group therapy sessions in psychology. Another good book to read is If Life is a Game, These are the Rules by Cherie Carter-Scott, Ph.D.

 

Unfortunately, in the game of life too many people attach the word "game" to love and relationships. If there truly is love there, then there should not be a game but a quiet comfort of the embodiment of two people at peace with each other. If a man or a woman feels the need to assert themselves in the relationship, then the other partner should attempt to respect that and understand the reason behind it. That is adult to adult TA.

 

Are we all capable of it...no, emotional stability gets thrown into the mix, and as much as men would not like to admit it, women are not as emotionally unstable as men would like to think...men have the same issues and insecurities as women do. Events can rock any persons' stability to the inner core.

 

As an example, a man criticizes or berates his wife but expects her to later become a tigress in the bedroom that same day, did she become the victim of her own low self esteem or did she become the victim of a Parent/Child TA? She is as unwilling to submit as a man would be to submit to changing a light bulb if he were berated by his wife. It's not a game of wills, but it is a transactional, or reciprocal, event.

 

You go girl and betweenhere&there...Yep to both of you! Exactly.

[spriggig]

It is a sad statement but it is true. How else can you explain the WAW epidemic. Now that women have their independence they are walking which shows most never loved us in the first place.

 

Nah, women just see "true love" as the butterflies, the honeymoon stage. After that, their hormones balance out, they get antsy and start blaming the husband. So, the expiration date on a relationship with virtually all women is 18 to 36 months. The lesson here is don't bother getting married. Or, if you just love punishment, wait five years and then demand an airtight pre-nup.

[2.50 a gallon]

Simon

 

It seems as though you are hung up on women playing sexual games. What is you hang up? Why do you have to attribute all WAW to playing sexual games.

 

True it does happen, and there are some of us who are blindsided. But if you had really read my posts and some of the recent posts of ladies who are telling their side of the story. They were not playing games, quite simply their needs were not being met, their lives were empty and they decided life was too short to live like this and they walked away.

 

You give the impression, just because they are married they need to bow down to their husbands sexual needs. Alas many men are similarly clueless.

 

In my past I was a player. I do not fit the tall, dark and handsome profile. More along the lines of the short, skinny 125 pound weakling. And yet I had women knocking on my door and asking me if they could come in a play. My secrets, first, I listened to women, I asked them about their lives. I learned if I listened they would tell me how to seduce them. And the truth be known, many of them wanted to be seduced, they made themselves available.

 

Why, because, "Girls just want to have fun" and that included sex. First thing was to find out what made them laugh. Laughter made them relax, feel at ease. Then I listened as they told me what they liked, food, music, movies, fashion, politics. And even sex, what they had tried and what they wanted to try.

 

By far the easist was married women. They had been in this emptines that they called marriage, all it took was for me to notice them, and they chased me down.

[Woggle]

There are some women like that but more often a man is willing to do anything and I mean anything to please a woman yet it is still not enough.

[wrencn]

There are some women like that but more often a man is willing to do anything and I mean anything to please a woman yet it is still not enough.

 

I'm not discounting your experience, but I've learned men sometimes think they are doing anything and really aren't doing much.

 

This is a jab at my husband not you. He thought he was a great husband because he paid the bills, didn't beat me, wasn't an alcoholic and didn't cheat. It takes a lot more than that to be a good husband.

[You Go Girl]

In my past I was a player. I do not fit the tall, dark and handsome profile. More along the lines of the short, skinny 125 pound weakling. And yet I had women knocking on my door and asking me if they could come in a play. My secrets, first, I listened to women, I asked them about their lives. I learned if I listened they would tell me how to seduce them. And the truth be known, many of them wanted to be seduced, they made themselves available.

 

Why, because, "Girls just want to have fun" and that included sex. First thing was to find out what made them laugh. Laughter made them relax, feel at ease. Then I listened as they told me what they liked, food, music, movies, fashion, politics. And even sex, what they had tried and what they wanted to try.

 

By far the easist was married women. They had been in this emptines that they called marriage, all it took was for me to notice them, and they chased me down.

 

You definitely are onto something here Gallon.

It's not the tall dark and handsome man that women are vulnerable to. It's the man that will listen to them, and see just where the void is. That void is usually comfort. A man who will say,"let me give you a hug" to a woman in some kind of distress has just done the magical thing that will make her vulnerable to him.

H's get distant, hard, and unavailable emotionally. They can cut the grass 7 days a week, it won't get to their wives hearts. The H that comes home everyday and then holds his wife and looks in her eyes and stays tuned into her, is the one that she will find her rock of gilbralter, and that's what women are looking for.

Of course there are women who want to act out and have an affair, just as there are men. Of course there are women too that are emotionally distant or unavailable.

But for most women, there is a void in the comfort dept. First, be your wife's rock of protection. Don't violate her trust, protect it as if guarding a castle. Girls want to have fun may be true, but it's not nearly as important.

If another man comes along when she's in distress and acts like that castle guard, she's going to be vulnerable. Women really do want a knight.