Something about my X

[Goatsbreath]

ok- I have a X from about 7 years ago. Somehow we managed to keep in touch even though she moved to maine and I lived in michigan. Well, recently she moved back to michigan about 4 hours away still. We have been seeing each other every few weeks. When we hang out we have fun, go out and eat, go play some pool and then usually end up back at my house and fall asleep together on the couch. Oh- she has a boyfriend. So this confuses me. After the last time she was up she sent me a email, here is a insert that sort of captures this.

 

[thanks for the lengthy email. i appreciate your objective view of me in relationships. i guess i don't always see myself clearly and have a hard time judging how i act in relationships. i think that i just always assume the worst of myself. yes, i do chase love all around, though. you're right about that. most of the time i chase it away, too!! but, alas, what can i do about that? not much, apparently. sean was slightly miffed about me staying the night at your house. he says he trusts you more than other guys, but it still bothered him. he said that he doesn't think we'd sleep together, but he worries more about us cuddling. so i told him we didn't/don't. i don't think he'd understand. what do you think?]

 

Ok- this seems to imply that I am in some secret understanding club. Ofcourse- I am not. I don't understand. What the hell is the cuddling. She does confess that her boyfriend always abandons her to go do other things on days off together that just seem irrelevant to her. Such as football and video games. She says that she dont know how much longer things will continue like this and even though she has brought it up to him- nothing has changed.

 

So, I guess I just wonder what I should do. I mean I have played sort of stand off- listen to her- but pretend that cudding was just a innocent comfort thing. I mean, I have always liked this girl even after our break up but she has never been clear about what she feels for me. There have been times weve hooked up, then other times she did not want to. I just dont know what the hell she is thinking. It really seems the more I pretend to be not interested, the more interested she becomes. So I act this way but should I just be real and ask her. I mean, I hate games but is this the way into some peoples hearts.

[Goatsbreath]

Hmm...., I know it is tuff. I dont want to make our friendship strange either. I guess I am supposed to go and see her tomorrow. I will prob just keep acting like friends until I know what to do, even though our friendship is somewhat obscure to me. Recently she made me a photo album with pics of me and her, alot of them were from when we were dating. She also made me a Cd. I dont know, I guess these things can be friendly gestures but when I add everything up in my head it speaks otherwise. I mean the gifts- the cuddling- the topic of conversation about her boyfriend not giving her the attention she deserves. I mean add this up and its seems to be pointing toward a possibility. Then I remember that she is writing the equation and I become doubtful....hmmm.......

[mandrews1119]

Goatsbreath,

All the best to you. I am going through a situation in a long term relationship, and you have no idea how many of us would love to be in your shoes. After all the therapy, the "no contact", chat rooms, advice and all - most of us would die to have a chance to do it over agaain, only better. Those of us who have grown and honestly want to make it work. It is only natural to have fear. It is always in proportion to the love. The only real question is what do the two of you want from/for/with each other? Obviously no time frame applies, does it? Seven years, I think that is a record for a return!! If you have grown and she has and you both are ready to make the necessary improvements (let's not say changes, shall we?) to try and work it out - go for it I say!! Let her know about your fears and you should hear her side and try to go from there if you can. Nothing beats a failure but a try. Don't keep playing the friendship dance unless that is all you really want. That being said, only you and her know what the right time is to progress. Keep us posted.

[NatoPMT]

hi goats - sorry you are in this position. have got a couple of comments..

 

in her email she says her bf trusts you more than other guys? what other guys?

 

'i don't think he'd understand. what do you think' - very conspiratorial, designed to create a secret bond between you and exclude the person who she is supposed to be with, ie her boyfriend, this is a manipluative tactic if you ask me. shes guiding your thoughts for her own ends, if not to create this bond, then to allow her to continue her deceptive behaviour without being rumbled for doing things she doesnt want her bf to find out about.

 

she has never been clear about what she feels for me - shes not being clear now so why should anything else have changed? sounds like her negative behaviour is recurrent and she IS behaving badly.

 

I mean, I hate games but is this the way into some peoples hearts - i am questioning this myself at the moment. my question is if you have to play games as a way in, is what is in their heart geniune or also based on skullduggery?

 

i am also deliberating whether to ask someone direct what their feelings are - the whole games thing is such a risky strategy, but at the end of the day, whatever actions you take are part of you and if you somehow break the bond you have created by whatever actions you take, its an incompatability.

 

her actions seem more than friendly to me too, shes definately making gestures that suggest more feeling behind them, but its JUST enough to pique your interest without making any verbal commitment to what she wants from you. i dont quite know what to make of that.

 

sorry to sound so negative about it, i am just concerned that her actions are so conflicting that that until she knows what she wants, shes going to keep confusing you. her strategy in allowing herself to be nearly available while she decides means thats shes giving you signals that are tuned into allowing your feelings to develop and theres no guarantee she'll want to be with you at the end of it

[Goatsbreath]

Mandrews- thanks for your reply. I hope I can set the record although I am still at ends with my ability to trust the situation for what it is. Its just funny how it happened. I mean- she had been helping me work through issues with a recent X when she relayed the info to me that she might be moving back near me with her mom. Then I run into one of her X boyfriends that lives near me and I give him her phone number because he had lost touch with her. Then she moves back here and is dateing him and chumming around with me like buds. Then she starts coming to me with realationship trouble. So see- its very complicated- if fate is putting us back together then it sure is going about a screwed up version of putting things back into place. Good luck to you

 

Big Belm.---:_) I always love to get your take on the subject and I am going to reply to your post over the course of the night....Im at work so its hard to type something when I keep coming and going. Plus I had a pretty rough night of dancing myself- ha ha. Im going to bring you up to date .....

[NatoPMT]

always a pleasure goaty, always a pleasure

 

your reply to mandrews put a slightly different take on the situation as i was seeing it - shes casual with this other guy, yes? how long has she been seeing him? is it exclusive? his trusting you comment in her email suggests its exclusive so i stand by what i said actually. i should stop thinking out loud. and hes an ex too? (just getting that straight in my underfunctioning head).

 

not quite sure yet how i think that changes things. need to have a think on my chin about it. i'm still concerned about her not being open with you (and never has been open with you) - whats your gut feeling on it? how do you think she feels about you? and how do you think she feels about this other guy? at this stage you hav ethe benefit of intuition which kind of gets clouded by feelings the closer you get to someone.

 

have there been any more developments since you first posted?

 

boo at being at work.

[Goatsbreath]

Big Belm- Ok- First off- I do understand the points you are making and they are well taking. I am sure some of my uncertaindy stems around these issues and some others. Still- this situation has made me realize that my recent X didn't actually hold the depth of my heart that I know I am capable of giving. I mean- I remember what it felt to love this other girl and it was definately not the same. Now- when Im with her- everybody in the room or bar or where ever I am dissapears but her. This probably is not healthy considering.

 

Ok (let me give the update) :

 

She has openly talked with her boyfriend about the situation with him, feeling neglected. She has told me that she is not all that much into the realationship as she should be. She feels she is not a priority and that in order to be a part of his life she has to fit into his schedule. Then for new years she surprises me and ask if we can do something that night. I asked why she wouldn't be with her bf and she said he was going to chicago and did ask her but at the same time said "but, it will be expensive." She took this as you dont want me to go. Understandable. So we spent new years together and again, spent the night together just cuddling...yes, again. Then two nights later we hang out again and shoot some pool at a local bar. She tells me this night that she is ashamed of her behavior in the realationship even though she was not into it based on his attitude toward the realationship. When the night winds down- again she comes back to my house but says she prefers to sleep alone this night. I say ok and go to my bed and wonder if it had something to do with what she said earlier about being ashamed of her behavior. Anyways- yesterday I talked with her on the phone and she told me she was ending things with him that night. I have not talked with her today. I sort of dont want to call up and be like- hey- so how did the break up go.

 

Ok- so BIGBELM- See- the thing I do respect about her is that even though she did some not so nice things in the realationship she took the initiative to end the realationship and not just keep lieing. I mean- she talked with him plenty about her feelings and he did not change. I do trust her to tell truths- I mean, from the past I have known her to cheat- (not on me) - but others she dated. She always told them and accepted the consequence. Im not saying she is a serial cheater- just a few times when a realationship was going bad anyway. The point is she admits or takes responsiblitly save for this about cuddling- but then she ends realationship a few weeks later. I guess- I think that she follows her heart but is just confused about where it tends to take her. If this makes sense.

 

Well, sorry for the long post- I will try to make these shorter. Anyway- thanks for listening to me ramble and maybe someday I will be in London BIGBELM and we can go dancing and I will say........."You go girl<" ..>>with my american accent....lol

[Goatsbreath]

BigBELm- yes he is a X as well. I think he said he trust me more than other guys meaning if it would of been someone else they would of tried to have sex with her. There are no other guys. He just knows me and knows that me and this girl have been friends for a long time. They have been together for about 3 months- the time she has been back in michigan. See- they live 4 hours from me and she lives with her brother, her mom lives in my town. She did not want to move to this town because its real small and she likes bigger cities so she moved with her brother to a bigger city while her mom came back up here. They dont want to be to far apart. This other X just happens to live in the city where her brother is living and now her.

 

Also- when I say she has never been clear with me. I guess I didn't mean back when we were dating. Just ever sense, like if something would happen between us, like this cuddling- we never talk about it and for some reason I find it hard to approach.

[Goatsbreath]

Oh and also, when shes up here she says she really dont like the place she is living. It dont feel like home she says and where I live is more familiar to her. Still- its unclear if she wants to make the move back up here but there seems to be uncertain hints to it. I think. Oh boy.

[NatoPMT]

haha i will take you up on that - and a few people said 'you go girl' to me last night, in cockney accents, just not the same.

 

your update adds a lot of clarity to the situation & i'm glad you have got the recent ex situation straight in your head now.

 

this girls actions do sound not unrealistic considering how her boyfriend is treating her, and i get the thing about her not being a natural cheater - more due to circumstance. and gotcha on that you already knew what i had said and that being the basis of your concern. thing is, shes still behaving badly. she should be dealing with her current fella before reeling you closer to her, and it may also be that shes getting the confirmation that shes important from you in the absence of getting it from her current bf, shes getting validation about her self esteem from you. which is again understandable and i know that i am capable of such actions, and in that knowledge i also know i am capable of absolute loyalty to someone who deserves it, so i have to say that i am sure she can be too. i also find it difficult to disclose my intentions and feelings so i am actually starting to feel some empathy for her. it also brings to mind the fact she is capable and could treat you badly, unless you fulfil ALL her expectations, and grim as it is she WILL have expectations of you. and thats when disappointments occur when expectations arent fully met. thats not a fault of yours as you well know, but a fact that you cant be what someone else thinks they want from you. if you can touch her emotionally enough to release all the different conflicting feelings she has, you may well make it and if you cant, you arent meant to be.

 

the fact she hasnt lied is encouraging, but in her email to you shes said shes lying to the current bf. but again, you have to trust your instincts, and i know all your instincts arent rosy and the corncerns o threw up in my first post you already had. she sounds quite impulsive & hectic, and shes either looking for someone to match her pace, or some serenity from her partner to be a peaceful haven from herself, which means shes relying on you which puts you in a position and a half. i am making a lot of assumptions but youll have an idea if i am right.

[NatoPMT]

if she doesnt like where shes living and you are familiar, it sounds like shes looking for the serene haven thing off you - thats what she needs right now, but soon shell also need excitement and fun but within the boundaries of safety with a relationship with you. i am basing this stuff on how i think btw. not from any deeper understanding of human nature. not vg at that

[Goatsbreath]

BIGBEL:::::::she sounds quite impulsive & hectic, and shes either looking for someone to match her pace, or some serenity from her partner to be a peaceful haven from herself, which means shes relying on you which puts you in a position and a half.::::BIGBELM

 

Yes, I think you know her. Thats the girl, ha ha. The thing is I dont know which extreme she is looking for, the safe haven or someone impulsive and hectic as her. I am more the safe haven I think which means I am in trouble. The thing is she has always held a spot in my life and its funny. When ever we go anywhere together people just assume we are a couple. For instance: we go into a small shop and are looking around and talking to the person behind the counter and he says you guys are a cute couple. Then at a bar one time someone makes the insinuation that we look alike. Then we are like what? and they say- well you dont look alike- but you both give the same vibe or something. I dont know what this is. It happens alot.

 

Anyway, this is what it boils down to. I can't help what I feel- I guess Im stuck. So- ONE- I can tell her what Im feeling- just open up and confess I have lots of feelings and just be done with it. Or TWO- perhaps I can stand back a bit- dont let this out yet- let her situation with X complete itself and stand by as a comforting friend. Then see what happens. This is hard though.

 

Ok- gut feeling- for some reason I feel if I let myself be known that she will say her feelings are unclear and tend to pull away- If I start to pull away she will begin to show interest. I hate games but this is what my gut feeling tends to think. Are games worth it or should I just come clean and live with the result.

[NatoPMT]

if you feel that you are on the safe haven side of the fence, you could be in trouble, you need to be able to provide a calming influence while being able to indulge her impulsive side if its to work long term - id like to be able to say stop jumping the gun, just go with the flow, but i think a logical approach will help you organise what you want from this - and lets face it, you cannae stop thinking about her so lets at least use that energy effectively. she sounds like quite an idealist, and they are the hardest to please - she wants someone who can offer everything she needs WHEN she needs it, shes going to be pretty high maintence. brave boy.

 

my feeling is to say that you are right in holding back for a little longer. i dont think you should lay all your cards down yet. you answer your own questions - i agree that she will probably pull away or it will pressure her into making a decision shes not ready to make and that decision will not be in your favour if shes been rushed. or if she makes it in your favour then she may have some feelings of her hand being forced which will affect things negatively. softly softly catchy monkey - i love that saying. its hard yes, but you have the advantage here over her current fella, he doesnt know whats happening and his obvious jealousy and insecurity are going to push her further away, after all, he does have reason to be insecure.

 

the whole game playing thing is completely over my head. my impatience and natural tendancy is to know exactly where i stand and i cannot understand this whole thing about waiting and seeing how things develop, i have never managed a 'successful' relationship with someone who holds back and doesnt feel crazy in love within half an hour of meeting me - thats an exaggeration but you get the jist. so i dont know if what you get at the end of it is worth it - other people manage it, but i never have. youve dated her before so you do know what to expect by the time you have got past this bizarre ritual we are subjected to, so i suspect your question is more rhetorical and a symptom of your frustration and need for answers now now now rather than a serious questioning of whether you want to be with her.

 

one other thought on the talking about the cuddling - if you find it hard to broach it with her, its probably for a reason - your subconsious is reading the signs better than your conscious and stopping you self destructing. that prob applies to my situation too. we should listen to our inner voices more.

 

ive had a thought on my situ too, i can get a free trip to amsterdam through work, i mentioned it to J a couple of weeks ago and he said hed love to go so am going to arrange a long weekend away from london for us to have some time without all our mental friends turning up at the house at 3am and the like. and give me a bit of a chance to relax and stop babbling like a moron every time i see him. hes back off his holiday tomorrow so am getting nervous already, and i wont see him til the weekend. i have 4 more days of hot flushes and near faints. baaah.

[Goatsbreath]

Hey, Bigbelm, well sort of out of the blue, without me even bringing anything up I got this email which kind of puts things where they are going to be. I guess Im glad about it cuz i dont have to wonder about things. heres the email.

 

hey there. just another email from lil old me. i am actually thinking of trying to get up there. i was thinking about trying to make a doctor's appointment to get some happy pills. this i was going to try to do on friday. and i have the weekend off. i figured that since i won't be getting insurance through my work until spring time, i might as well go up there and see someone for it, so i don't sink into a depression over the winter blahs and sean. plus the anxiety thing i'm sure will not be held at bay forever by my reminders to myself to take deep breaths! although it seems to help me relax because i constantly feel like my stomach is in a knot unless i'm making a conscious effort to relax (and take deep breaths). ah the subtle glories of mental illness!!!

i think you're at work now...you work during the week and then have the weekend off...is that right?

and i really do have some extra mittens, if want. i have some pink ones with flowers on them. white flowers. and then i have some lake state ones that are blue with the yellow anchors on them. also a matching fleece headband thing to go with those. you just say the word and they can be yours. actually, i wouldn't take those if i were you...they're not even very warm.

i take issue with your statement that 'there are friends to be made' from your last email. i thought that we had already discussed how summer does not seem to be the friends-making type?

and no i am not blaming you for what happened. i'm just trying to make sense of it all...and defend myself (to myself) as the non-instigator of the kiss. if any of that makes sense. forget it!!! it's done and over with.

but one thing that i do have a question about...at some point that night you got upset with me for whatever went down on the dance floor, i think it was when those guys created a pseudo-situation or whatever it should be called. when we got off the dance floor, you said alot of things to me, and some of them were of the 'i know we're friends but you know i have these feelings.....' nature. i guess i just want to know how much of that was for real. i know that we're friends no matter what but lately(like in the past year!) there's just been too many of the guys that i thought were my friends pretty much saying that the only reason that they're friends is because they want something more, and if there won't ever be anything more, than there might as well be no friendship. or that they can be friends with me, but if they ever start dating someone else, then we won't be friends anymore. please reassure me that this won't happen between us. i don't want anything more than to be friends with you. tell me the same.

ok bye.

hope to hear from you soon!

love, summer

 

Hmm, this sort of makes me mad cuz I think she knows I have always kept feelings for her. Oh well, no use expending my energy. I mean, I will be her friend but Im not going to let this situation ruin me. OK, bigbelm ....take care

[Goatsbreath]

just wanted to add..../ do you think I should email some long explanation or just like something short. Like dont worry about that night, sorry, I just had a few drinks and I only want friends. Then totally change subject, not give her much on the subject. or should I email long explanation,...........>>welll, i have to tell the truth, I have always .....yada yada yada.....

what do you think

[NatoPMT]

hmmm. thats very frustrating because she was initiating or at least allowing a lot of physical contact from you - she saw it coming because she knew her behaviour was inappropriate.sounds like shes in this situation with quite a few men. do you still want to be friends with her? was the potential of this developing into something more the only thing keeping you in touch with her?

 

did you have a kiss as well? what happened? as the 'none instigator' did she allow the kiss to happen or did she pull away immediately and say this isnt what she wanted?

 

she sounds either pretty thoughtless or like she is prepared to take this far enough for her to get what she wants from you. this has happened to me recently, with a friend i have been close to for 9 years - except i havent allowed any physical contact at all and for 7 years of my friendship with him, he was my ex ex's best friend. now he tells me that theres always been something more and i am fizzing mad at him. there hasnt and i did nothing to encourage it. shes manipulated you if shes encouraged you and it sounds like she has - theres an extremely fine line between being with a friend who makes you feel good and using that friends feelings to make yourself feel good at their expense - shes done the latter. shes not a friend to you and i suspect that deep down if you stay friends you will always have a spark of hope something may happen in the future - it may, it may not.

 

but like you said, this situation isnt the end of the world, but i suspect that it may dredge up recent feelings of your other ex who DID cause you a lot of pain. did summer help you get over the ex? just by being a distraction? its hard to distinguish if the feelings are entirely none related, but you have the knowledge that you can get through this.

 

if i was you i would respond in whatever way you feel will help you. by asking if you should mail a long explaination, are you asking whats the best way to keep her friendship or the best way to keep the potential of something happening alive? if you want to keep her friendship iw ould be very dismissive of the whole thing likeyou suggest. ifyou are doing this for yourself, do whatever you feel you should or whatever will make you feel better. in general, the whole ex thing doesnt seem worth it to me, got find yourself a new bird goaty!

[Goatsbreath]

Hey Bigbelm, thanks for advice. I will write more of this later but right now I am at work. Just wanted to clear up the kiss. No, we did not kiss. She kissed another girl when we were on the dance floor. I dont know why she is making a big issue out of it. I guess she said something about thinking those crazy days of doing stupid **** with no basis were behind her. I mean, its not liked she like the girl. I think this upset her because she dont want to bring this to the table of a relationship, no matter whos table she is sittting at.