Brother in trouble... ?

[Econ_Dagney]

Hi All,

 

I am really struggling with this one. My brother is 21, he'll be 22 in February, and he has always been irresponsible. He is definitely not mature for his age and has some anger issues. These 2 factors have caused him to have a lot of trouble with jobs, school, and friends.

When he first went to college 3 years ago, I was afraid that he wouldn't be up to the challenge and would end up messing it up. I suggested that he get some counselling, but he never did. My fears were justified.

He skipped classes a lot during his freshman year, and dropped down to part-time each term. The first semester of his 2nd year at university he stopped going and only told us afterwards. Oh yeah, and he forgot to drop his classes so now he has 4 F's on his transcripts, and he also decided that he was taking the spring semester off. Well, when he tried to go back to school they wouldn't let him go back. The school said that he owed money because financial aid had stopped paying for his classes after he kept dropping classes the first year.

I paid off the bill at the university because we all really wanted him back in school and no-one else had enough money to foot the bill, but then financial aid told him that he would have to pay for school for a semester before they would reinstate his aid. I didn't have the resources for the school fees so he got a job and was supposed to save up and pay for one semester at a junior college.

Yeah, he ended up spending every dime he earned, and therefore never saved up enough to pay for school. He's been out of school for a little over 2 years now.

Last week his ex-girlfriend called my mom at 3 in the morning and asked her to check on him. My mom said that he was very upset and even crying. She stayed up talking to him for an hour. He said he was depressed because he lost both of his jobs over the summer (anger related), and his girlfriend in the fall (he was cheating), and he still didn't have enough money for school(because he spent it). He told her that he just wanted to quit trying because everything was too hard. My mom called me the next day and told me about the conversation, and said that she was going to make sure he was in school next term even if she had to pay for it herself so that he would have something to look forward to. I told her that I would pay for him to go to school part-time for one semester, but that I was done after that and if he couldn't get it together then maybe he needed counselling more than he needed school.

I'm helping him out because I know my mom can't really afford to, and I have some savings so it doesn't really hurt me financially to do so. I worked for 2 years after university and saved.

I have made it clear to him that he can't rely on me financially after the next term is over. I am a married graduate-student, with my first baby on the way and once my child is born she will have to be my top priority financially and emotionally. In the past I have always been there for my family, and at times they have taken advantage of me because they knew I cared about them enough to sacrifice for them...but I know I can't be responsible for them any more. It wouldn't be fair of me to do that to my child.

My question is...Am I doing the right thing now? Should I pay for his school if it helps put him back on the right track? Or, should I leave it be and force him to sort his life out for himself.

 

The only reason why my mom and I keep stressing the education thing is because we're both convinced that if we don't take drastic measures now, then he's going to end up as one of those guys who never has a steady job and never leaves home. My mom is almost 50 and doesn't want to still be taking care of him when she turns 60, but we also want to make sure that he's still around 10 years from now and hasn't harmed himself. This is such a difficult situation for me. I love my brother and I want him to be okay, but I can't keep footing the bill. He's an adult now when will he finally grown up? Adulthood is hard sometimes, but should the prospect of acting like a real adult really be suicidally depressing?

[Econ_Dagney]

I just want to state that I am not heartless, just hard-core. I am 27 years old.

My family didn't have money so I used scholarships, grants and a job to put myself through university. I worked 2-3 jobs at a time to pay school bills, and help my mom out at home. I paid for my brother's and sister's school supplies and school clothes for 5 years straight (that stopped 2.5 years ago), and I even kept our family from getting evicted by taking over full responsibility whenever my mom lost her job. I weaned my mother off of my support and helped her to become financially responsible for herself and my younger siblings. Now she pays all of her own bills, keeps a steady job and never has to ask me for money that I won't give her. My aid to them stopped 2.5 years ago when I moved out after graduation and finally started taking care of myself.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Econ_Dagney

[Ronni_W]

Oh, the joy that is guilt induced by our beloved family members, huh?

I get your love, commitment and concern...believe me I do. I did pretty much *exactly* what you're doing, to my younger brother. It was a dysfunctional, codependent mess of my "good intentions".

He's an adult now when will he finally grown up?

The answer is: He will finally grow up as soon as you and your mom give him the space in which to do that.

 

I KNOW that it has been well-intentioned...but. You've been preventing him from experiencing the consequences of his own actions; blocking him from learning his own Life lessons; interfering with his own human-spiritual path/purpose.

 

In short, you've been trying to control his experiences so that they match up with YOUR desires for him and YOUR ideas of what it means to "be an adult"...instead of allowing his experiences and outcomes to match up with HIS reason(s) for being alive on this planet at this time.

 

If he is like my brother was, at this point, he has low-to-zero self-esteem -- he has NO idea of what he really is capable; no way of assessing his own talents, skills, intuition, judgment, values. He would be feeling inadequate and incompetent because he has been limited/prevented from becoming adequate and competent -- in the way that HIS life purpose requires him to be adequate and competent.

 

You could start by asking him about him -- what does HE value, how does HE feel about not having an education or eventually being a homeless drifter? Where does HE see himself in 5 years? 10? 20?

 

Maybe it's NOT what you have in mind for him...but maybe you (and your mom) can find it in your hearts to let him have HIS life?

 

I KNOW it is difficult...believe me, I do. It hurts, and there's guilt, and there's fear. We need to deal with that on our own (with our own therapists), and we need to trust that their own Creator and Soul WILL look after them in ways that will serve THEIR best interests and Higher Purpose.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Ronni_W

[Left in a Lurch]

Sounds like my younger brother. Still very immature at 30. Be prepared, he will never thank you for the money or effort and at some point you will have an argument, particularly after you cut him off, and he will refuse to talk to you and probably tell everyone how horrible and dumb you are.

 

He will not take criticism well, and he believes the world is out to get him and the universe is set up so only he cannot succeed, but he believes he deserves success more because he has suffered more than anyone.

 

Cheating on his GF, failing school, losing his jobs, when it comes down to it, in his mind it is someone else's fault, or he is always a victim of circumstance. If you try to make him accountable or stop the money from flowing, it will all be your fault somehow. He will rewrite your family history and talk about he was probably abused or tortured throughout his childhood. Because in his mind, how else could he not be an incredible success in life, regardless of the effort he put in?

 

The problem is deep down he feels he is doing things right but they are not working out when in reality he is self-destructive because it is easier than working hard and finding a job he likes.

 

I am guessing when he talks about how he keeps failing and opens up, you'll feel like he is getting somewhere, but when he makes the same mistakes and you call him on it he turns on you, or gets angry and tells you off.

 

Personally, I don't think paying for everything is helping him. You are teaching him it is ok to keep doing what he is doing because there is no real consequence. SOMEONE will come through and bail him out when things get bad. If it's worked for 21 years, he figures why wouldn't it work for 22, or 23, or 24, or 25.... If money gets tighter for you, he'll just have to cry a little more and seem a little more desperate to get what he needs from you.

[Eve]

Wow, you and Mum are a mega patient people! I can only second what others have said. I suppose because you care for him you dont want to see him suffer and fear that there is something underlying that is causing this behaviour. I mean, what is all that anger about? However, money isnt going to fill that gap. Also, I think the emphasis on education right now is ill placed. Maybe he isnt good at studying and simply needs to find his own path via work etc?

 

... Maybe even he needs to travel a bit and find other examples of what it means to live a good life?

 

Take care,

Eve xx

[cybersister]

I agree with the posters but know it is hard- I fell for my brother's sob story and loaned him money for a deposit to rent a house last month- he is 49!!- after he ran out of other family members to bail him out.

Then too, I have a son living at home for 2 years not working after dropping out of college. On one level I know I am just enabling this behaviour, but think of the consequences if I didn't - I have a neice who could become homeless and I know how hard it is for young people to get on track without a secure home.

In retrospect I thought the money might be better spent on therapy for people to sort themselves out, but actually RonnieW is right. People should be allowed to choose their own track, and feel the consequences of those choices.

If they do not feel the consequences they will not start to make informed choices.

I just need to remember this next time I am tempted to intervene- it is a sign of co-dependency on my part.

[Peaceful Guy]

I love my brother and I want him to be okay, but I can't keep footing the bill. He's an adult now when will he finally grown up? Adulthood is hard sometimes, but should the prospect of acting like a real adult really be suicidally depressing?

 

hey, back off. it sounds like you guys are pressuring him into a situation that he's not comfortable with and is not prepared to handle. more importantly, its not for him. help him figure out what he really wants, and how to do it.

[Econ_Dagney]

Just for the record...when I said that we were emphasizing education, I meant that in terms of the fact that his education is something I was willing to help him with. He has told us that he wants to go back to school, and yes he even got angry at other family members when he asked them for money for school and they wouldn't bail him out. The school thing is his choice and it is the one and only thing I would give him money for. I wouldn't give him any to go and travel with. If he wants to travel, then he can pay for it himself. Why would I do that when I can't even afford to travel like that myself?

 

I agree that he has low self-esteem, and I have asked him about this but he's a guy and he only wants to open up when it suits him. He doesn't want to show when he is weak, and he has absolutely nothing going on in his life right now. Is that my fault? No.

Have I enabled him? Only by paying off the school bill. I haven't given him a cent, or paid for my mom's bills or contributed in any other way since he's graduated from high school. Was he grateful when I helped him out with the school bill? No. He kind of slapped me in the face and said that I should let him sort out his own life, but that was mostly because I classified it as a loan that I expected repayment for and of course he didn't want to think about repaying me. Am I patient? maybe, but what he did and the way he treats me still hurts. He supposedly didn't want anyone else's help any more, and yet here he is again giving everyone a sob story.

And, yes! It is always someone else's fault. According to him he never wanted to quit school and it's all on FAFSA, the university, and my mom for having our grandfather living there at the time. There's always an excuse. There's always something to ask for. He always feels slighted when he doesn't get what he wants. The boy actually asked my sister to ask one of my aunt's for some money for him during Thanksgiving. My sister told him NO. Then, when he got home from dinner he complained about how my aunt never does anything for him. Our little sister, she's 19 and the baby, is actually starting to resent his behaviour and his sob stories. He even asks her for money and she tells him hell no.

I am not making excuses for his behaviour at all. I am not in any way trying to contribute to this behaviour, and I don't know where he gets it from other than my mom. Was I there for her? Yes. She was the irresponsible role model when I was growing up. She was the one always getting evicted, and when I got old enough I made sure that I always had a job because I needed stability in my life. If she couldn't make sure that the bills were paid, then I would. Just because I said they had clothes and school supplies doesn't mean I was spoiling them. I got my brother and sister the bare minimum they needed to get through the school year. They didn't have name brand clothes or ipods, but they had more than I did. I can remember loads of times when I had school assignments and my mom either couldn't be bothered or didn't have the money to go and get the adequate supplies for me. At the very least, I wanted them to have adequate school supplies and clothes that fit. If you want to vilify me for that, then so be it...but I didn't give him unrealistic expectations about the future. I tried to show him through my actions that you have to work hard to get anything out of life..and that ethic didn't just apply to school or work.

 

The boy can't even be bothered to go and get applications for himself. He sent me an email today about how he had filled out some applications for jobs, and then when I talked to my sister I found out that she had gotten extra copies of applications because she is looking for a job too. So yeah, he is pretending like he has made an actual effort with me. I'm not the one trying to control his life. If he doesn't want to school, then fine. If he doesn't work, then fine, but I'm not taking care of him any more. I feel like I've been taking care of my mom and him my whole life and I've reached my limit. If he wasn't talking about school funds, then this question wouldn't have even been posted because I am not planning on being his enabler. But, how do you deal with a person who acts like this? What are you supposed to do? Do you let them flounder? My mom is never going to kick him out.

[Peaceful Guy]

But, how do you deal with a person who acts like this? What are you supposed to do? Do you let them flounder? My mom is never going to kick him out.

 

do what you can.. i empathize.. but you've got this thing where you're belittling him because he's making poor decisions.. he's not a boy, he's not useless, he's not stupid.. lay it out for him.. ill do this.. because this.. stop dissing your bro! **** man, he's gonna get enough of that from the rest of the world.

 

tell him what you can do and what you can't do and why.. most of all, be there for him.. forgive him.. help him be at peace with his decisions..

 

just so you know, im not writing this cause i think you suck.. im trying to actually help here.. not just say, well, he's right about this.. and your right about that.. get over being right so you can do the right thing.. got me?

[Econ_Dagney]

When did I diss him? What have I done other than try to help in whatever way I could? Have I ever said anything discouraging to him in person? No. Am I entitled to my own feelings and opinions? Yes.

[Econ_Dagney]

Since it seems as though I'm the bad guy here and I'm going to get dissed no matter what I say since some people are obviously taking my statements personally, then I think I'm going to just leave it. I'll talk to people who actually know me and aren't trying to treat me like the antichrist for not always knowing what the right thing to do for other people is, and for not wanting to make things worse.

Thanks again!

[Peaceful Guy]

When did I diss him? What have I done other than try to help in whatever way I could? Have I ever said anything discouraging to him in person? No. Am I entitled to my own feelings and opinions? Yes.

 

"The boy".. i agree that you have helped him.. i do not agree that you should now resent him for it. this is not an affront to you.. nor are his actions. cmon man.

[Peaceful Guy]

"and he has always been irresponsible".. forgive him.. for real. i gotta go, that's all you can do.

[Eve]

Maybe I shouldnt answer because you have gone off on one a bit... but hey, this is the internet. Maybe you needed to vent or something? However, I must say that I did not interpret the comments made as being attacking in nature. The posters who commented arent the sort who post for their friends here or because they are vindictive. You should read other parts of the board!

 

So, for my part I didnt mean that you should pay for him to go travelling! I said he could get a job remember. No, no, no, didnt mean that. Having to rely on himself in a different environment could do him the world of good!.. and give you both some space.

 

Anyhow, basically, I think that you have answered you own question... yes, its time to let him deal with things his own way. How to do that? Maybe just focus on doing brotherly type things. It seems that in amongst you taking on a fatherly role, the brother role has become lost. So maybe you need to draw a line in the sand and let the only thing you buy him from now be the odd beer and just do one on one brother type stuff.

 

It may be that he is a **** up.. or maybe he will sort himself out but dont jump to his tune so much. The moment resentment creeps in is the moment to think about doing things differently. From the sound of things this has been brewing up in you for a while. Whatever you did for the family in the past, be glad that you were able to do it but let him know that enough is enough now and the strain is too much on you.

 

Really Mum should have done a lot more.

 

Take care,

Eve xx

[TaraMaiden]

Since it seems as though I'm the bad guy here and I'm going to get dissed no matter what I say since some people are obviously taking my statements personally, then I think I'm going to just leave it. I'll talk to people who actually know me and aren't trying to treat me like the antichrist for not always knowing what the right thing to do for other people is, and for not wanting to make things worse.

Thanks again!

 

Econ, listen very carefully.

Hard as it may be to realise this, folks here really are just trying to help.

 

What you are experiencing is "Idiot Compassion".

 

You want to help him, but you have an Agenda. Your Agenda is conditional; in other words, you want to be supportive, as long as he....does something.

You want to help him out, but he.... has to return the kindness.

The problem is, 'Idiot Compassion' is doing something for somebody out of a sense of obligation that is dependent on you getting something out of it.

Unfortunately, because he has been accustomed to being helped out of bad situations, in a way, he has been 'conditioned' by those who know him, to remain weak and dependent.

So a pattern has now set in.

"I do something.

I mess up.

I feel bad.

people get frustrated and impatient with me.

I ask them for help.

I get it.

For a while, things work out.

Then I lose heart.

I mess up.

I feel bad.

people get frustrated and impatient with me.

I ask them for help.

I get it.

For a while, things work out.

Then I lose heart.

I mess up.

I feel bad...."

 

See the pattern?

 

For your part, you play into that pattern.

 

And here's the blinder:

 

there's a pay-off in it for you.

Up to now, you've played into it, because somehow, there was something in it for you.

What?

Well, the sense that you were being grandiose, magnanimous, charitable, supportive and family-like.

I mean, families do that for each other, right?

but it keeps you stuck in a holding pattern.

And it keeps him stuck too.

 

So now, you're realising and appreciating the utter wearisome, repetitive and monotonous cycle....

And now, you want to break it, but still remain compassionate.

Because if you just break it, that's cruel, heartless, callous and just plain spiteful.

Not labels anybody wants to wear.....

You want to remain a good person in his eyes, and everyone else's - but you want to stop the vicious circle, too.

 

Ever heard of 'Tough Love'?

 

Well, that's what you have to do.

 

What others do - is their choice, their consequence.

What you do, is your choice - and your consequence.

but idiot Compassion is ultimately self-defeating.

And Wise Compassion enables the person to feel loved, supported - and able to exercise will-power, independence and self-motivation.

 

You can still be a soft place for him to fall.

But you gotta be a hard nut with it.

[Econ_Dagney]

Thanks Maiden.

Maybe I jumped the gun a little bit last night, but I am dealing with pregnancy hormones here. I am a pregnant 27 year old female just in case that point wasn't obvious in previous posts.

Maybe I do resent him, or if not him specifically, then the neediness and craziness that is rampant in my family. I kind of feel like I have already been through this with my mother, and yes my kindness is based on one ulterior motive: I want him to do something with his life. I went through 5 years of therapy to kick the habit of allowing my mother to use me and I'm not exactly eager to start a second round with my brother.

My mother has played on my emotions and sympathy in the past. She even flat out stole from me once. Well, she drained the savings account I had in high school before I turned 18 and didn't tell me about it until the day after my 18th birthday when I was on my way to transfer the account from savings to a checking account. She spent my money even though I was already helping her out with bills because she didn't want me to use the money to go away for the summer, or use it to move out. I was accepted to Cornell and she begged me to go to a nearby state school because she said she couldn't cope without me, and I did what she asked...and yes, I did resent the hell out of her for asking me. These are issues that I dealt with in therapy. I know that sacrificed and put myself at a disadvantage when I was doing what I thought I had to do for my family.

I don't want to sit by and watch my brother turn into a younger version of what my mom used to be now that I'm older, married, and finished with therapy. My therapist taught me how to deal with my mom in a way that pushed/shoved her in the right direction. I flat out refuse to go through this all over again with him. When I said that maybe he needed therapy, I wasn't making a disparaging comment. I know from personal experience that therapy can help.

If my brother goes to school, then fine. If he does not want to go, then fine he can do something else once he figures out what that is. I just can't bear the thought that he will still be telling the same sob stories 10 years down the road. I don't want this anger/bitterness he feels because he thinks that people with money have it easy, and that the world is conspiring against him, to be an excuse he continually uses to flush his life down the toilet.

 

All that being said...I GET THAT HE IS THE ONE WHO HAS TO MAKE THE CHOICE ABOUT WHAT KIND OF LIFE HE IS GOING TO LIVE. I won't enable him. I'll listen and I'll offer emotional support, but I'm saying no about the money. I just can't be sucked back into that role. I never wanted to be anyone's saviour, and I certainly don't get a warm glow from bailing my relatives out financially; I was thrust into the role by being the oldest child of a single and habitually irresponsible parent. The only reason I wanted to help him out at all is because I know what it feels like to not have anyone there to rely on; just as I know what it is to be completely self-reliant.

 

Thanks for all of your posts. I've made my decision, and I'm sticking to it. Now all I have to do is tell my brother and my mother that I believe he would be better off sorting himself out financially. Of course, that just means that my mother is going to pay for it herself but at least my conscience will be clear and I can go back to just being his big sister and not the go-to person for financial maladies.

[Eve]

Thanks for all of your posts. I've made my decision, and I'm sticking to it. Now all I have to do is tell my brother and my mother that I believe he would be better off sorting himself out financially. Of course, that just means that my mother is going to pay for it herself but at least my conscience will be clear and I can go back to just being his big sister and not the go-to person for financial maladies.

 

Just remember that what you have said does make sense. Sometimes because validation has been missing at key points, situations can feel laden with tension that really belong to past encounters.

 

So when the time comes for the big talk, remember to stay in the present when speaking - above all else... even when they dont.

 

Take care,

Eve xx

[Boundary Problem]

Don't throw good money after bad, particularly as you have a child on the way.

 

He has to stand on his own two feet, financially.

 

He seems to be getting a lot of attention from the family with his screw-ups. Which won't really encourage him to turn his life around. Some of these mistakes he makes might be attention-driven, rather than an impulse-control problem.

[tahoebuffy]

It seems like there is nothing more you can do for him. My brother was like that, and it wasnt until we all finally withheld all support and refused to help him, the last time being when he went to jail over some stupid ticket he never took care of. We just left in in jail, refused to bail him out, and let him stew in his own problems. In fact, school just might not be for your brother at all. He seems like he needs to find himself and cant so it in his current location. A change of scenery could be what he needs. He kind of sounds like the kind of guy that would do really well in the military. The military has an unbelievable capacity to sort that kind of problem out, make him a man so to speak. Maybe you should suggest he join the Navy. He'll get to see the world, learn a trade, and when he gets out, they'll pay for him to go to school. Win win.

[Norman Bates]

It sounds like he doesnt even want to go to school anyways and is always angry because he doesnt know what to do.

 

He didnt have enough money for school "because he spent it" its obvious going to school isnt in his priority list. IMO he should jump into an apprenticeship in doing something like brick laying, car spray painting or something else that includes some labour.

 

Might not be up to your standards, but getting physical is not only good for your body, but good for your mind and it would help out with his anger issues.