What about the other man?

[dprtman09]

That was the OP, which everyone has ignored (me too, but I have fun on this post for other reasons as many can see)..... I even asked in an earlier post, since you have asked the OM for answers, whether you ever asked him straight, whether they slept together and that you have never answered.

 

Really I am happy that you are past this, but I still am not sure whether you have all the answers from your wife. I however think differently then others, and am not sure you need or want to have all the answers from your spouse. What you want is for you two to be happy, and if that means keeping a secret, so be it.....

 

Jeez! I missed something again. No, I never asked him straight. You know what, though, the jackass wouldn't tell me anyway. He would prefer that I stew for the rest of my life. For that matter, he probably doesn't care what I think. He took my W's moves seriously and didn't care if she was married because she appeared not to care if she was married. Once again, he could have stood the moral high ground and told her to come back when the marriage was over, but when I asked him what made him think that what he was doing was right his only reply was "I"m single". So what does that tell you about what I've learned here? The answer to my original question is: I'll never know because he does not have to give a d**n. I don't have to hear the why's from him, his lack of response is as loud as a tree falling in the forest. It's what you don't hear that counts. By the way, I still do not believe she slept with him even after pouring over every word of this thread. No one here has been wrong in their thinking, but I reserve the right to sift through the evidence and deliver the verdict.

 

TDP--The voice of reason.

[Chrome Barracuda]

D09 has a point.

[imagine]

Asking OM does not guarantee the truth. Getting the complete truth from WW does speed up recovery. She does have to be amenable and a polygraph is the best bet.

 

Hopefully -she will make the suggestion. A polygraph will help you understand her emotional responses to OM. Again, this is about reading her and protecting your marriage.

[Jeff1962]

Dude, get the hell out and kick her to the curb.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Silverplanets finally answered the OP.... Very telling, honest and scary (the 5 years later part).

 

No I don't expect the OM to answer the question and not sure I'd believe him after all this time. I just posted that thought based on you continuing to beat yourself up about it.

 

I'd forget about him, not the fact what your wife did, but do the best to move on as you want to stay with her....

[silverplanets]

Silverplanets finally answered the OP.... Very telling, honest and scary (the 5 years later part).

 

 

Thanks TDP ... I did try and answer the original question as posed.

 

Incidentally (and it probably won't put anyones mind at rest) .. After 5 years when she contacted me we had a very open conversation at that time (and there was no reason for it not to be honest, she knew I was no longer interested and it was more like an old friends type chat) ... (we even laughed at the lies she told ... which were about 10x bigger than I thought !!!)

 

A couple of the, relevant things to this post, she told me was:

 

a) the emotional pressure put on her by her H was immense ... tears, threats, promises of change, offers of a "different" future, commitemnt to change work patterns

b) the pressure on her from everyone else was immense ... family, friends, colleagues,society etc ... she said she felt judged and pressurised in every direction ..

 

She also said, once she caved in, she caved in completely .. "they" had won, she would be the dutifull wife and everyone would be happy and the pain of the pressure would go away. J (ie herself) would have to wait/learn to live with it.

 

So they had two kids etc etc, got on with life, did the same as everyone else until eventually she realised that she was killing who she was deep inside to live up to what "life" expected her to be.

 

She realised (over the years) that she just didn't want to be there but that the pressure of the time didn't allow her to fully understand herself.

 

I have never betrayed anyone I loved .. although I have done the dirty on people who I didn't love enough. I know when I love someone and I argue that it's impossible to betray someone you truly love ... you just can't do it.

 

I have loved two such people in my life and I would have found it physically impossible to betray them .. And I love them no less due to the fact that life never allowed us to be together.

 

As I said before I really do wish you guys the best and I am not saying she doesn't love you. What I am saying again is that the answer is inside you .. do you love her ... could you betray her ... what does her love for you feel like to her ...

 

I'm a firm believer that ultimately if you truly love someone then you encourage them to soar to the highest heights they can reach and encourage them to open doors and realise potential in themselves that they don't yet know ...

 

I *love* my daughter with every breath of my being, and I know that as I encourage her to grow and see the beauty of life and her own soul that she will go places that I can't ...

 

And love means I want that for her ... no matter that it means playing a lesser day to day role in her life ..

 

And somewhere in this there is a point worth considering I tend to feel ..

 

When I D'd (my choice) I encouraged my wife to have counselling, supported her financially to get on her feet and even counselled her and her new love later in the year when they had some issues .. not out of guilt but because love has many forms.

 

People thought i was mad, but why would I not want someone who I'd cared enough to marry (albeit I was too young to understand what part of me I was giving up) to soar and reach the maximum heights they could?

 

When my relationship with the mother of my child ended I did the same .. made sure that we fought for an arrangement that was best for OUR child for BOTH of us (even though I could have gone for sole custody as I was the main carer) ... and we still do ... I supported her through getting a law degree even though we were no longer together ...

 

It may be a bit wierd, but again, why would I not want the mother of my child to be a succesful, happy adult ...and to experience all she wants in this life??? The one thing I cannot give her is me in a relationship ... anything else, provided it doesn't hurt me, I try and give my support.

 

Most of us would do it for strangers or friends (ie try and support them) but sometimes it's hard to do it for the ones we love because our own needs are affected ...

 

Sorry for the digression, but it all comes down to what do you believe love is? It seems to me that your wife must have been unhappy in some way or form (not necessarily with you I agree ) and that even at it's very least the A was a cry for help?

 

Sometimes helping someone involves helping them grow to a new position in life and sometimes that means you're role in their life changes ... unconditional love to me is doing that which is best for them.

 

Which rambling brings me back to my point .. this is all about her and not about the OM. And what you want to do with your life is all about you and not her.

 

Support each other, encourage each other to fly as high as you can .. and forget about him ... if you end up flying together then that's a bonus if you don't then you've still done love proud by brining out the best in each other ...

 

Three final thoughts:

 

first - No-one can soar from a cage .. (and perhaps that's the challenge of any relationship)

second - sometimes when we fly we need to rest a while, and maybe for you two that's what this time is about, resting, looking down on where you've been, considering where you might fly now ...

third - there's never any guarantee that your paths will always be the same ... but as long as they are, then forget about the OM's path and enjoy flying together ...

 

Be well guys

 

Chris

 

ps: People tell me I see the best in everyone ... I always disagree I just look for the person in everyone ...

Edited January 8, 2010 by silverplanets
Added the part about resting, as felt it helped relation to op's current position ...

[2sunny]

Sometimes helping someone involves helping them grow to a new position in life and sometimes that means you're role in their life changes ... unconditional love to me is doing that which is best for them.

 

i agree with this. if your M is to have growth and success - it needs to change and evolve into something better than it was before the cheating occurred - when the M was vulnerable.

 

change so much that it never looks or feels again like it once did - if it doesn't change enough to withstand this temptation that she's been having - it will surely succumb to the ways of the temptation again. if we go back to our old ways - we get the same result as before.

 

are you both willing to change enough for the end result? are you willing to do the hard work to get to a different place? it's uncomfortable getting there when you're not sure what that end result is supposed to look like.

[Dexter Morgan]

Understand this above all else. I will never absolve my wife. The Catholic church split apart over the subject of absolution in the middle ages. She has yet to absolve herself. It's a matter of forgiveness.

 

but you are making excuses for her and blaming him more than her.

[silverplanets]

Silverplanets:

 

Your post reminds me of colleagues of mine who are good at interacting in all the facets of our field, but not particularly expert in any of them.

 

They may be a mile wide, but they're only an inch deep.

 

Not how I would have expressed it but yes, I was encouraging the OP to look at the big picture.

 

As I said they should be focused on themselves, not the OM.

 

And also as I said, I genuinly wish them well with it.

 

[2sunny]

the hard part about helping in this thread is that we all still feel as though the OP never has had the full truth. if and when the effort is made to know the truth - we may be able to help further.

 

his W is unwilling to help the M along by proving her position.

[Space Ritual]

I agree. and I think the OP became understandably frustrated because I think in many ways we strayed off the main question that he wanted answered....and that was a question of any single men who had been in the same position as the OM in this case.

 

Of course it didn't help either that I pointed out the denial aspect to the OP on more than one occasion. I was not trying to do it to slam the OP but it I think it was taken that way.

 

I can only ask Dprtman...are you 100 percent confident that you have gotten everything answerwise you sought from your wife? I know you want more answers from the OM but I think you can see for yourself that no more answers wish be coming from him.

 

I wish you well. Now if you will excuse me I am going to watch BANACEK

[2sunny]

ok - so to the original premise...

 

you asked about the single guy... he answered - he could - because he's single. yep, he is right. he also stated that your W pursued... we all know that she hasn't exactly ben forthcoming...

 

so...

 

if she was pursuing and hasn't given the full truth - then what are we left to believe?

 

that she doesn't want you to know the truth because she wanted him, pursued him until he paid attention, then got caught.

 

so what is a gal to do? deny, and leave out info so she can have you take her back.

 

 

now that you seem to think things are ok - she's unwilling to revisit her truth. without the truth, nothing can be better, it is just a cover up about what the real problem may be. and how it can be repaired.

 

are you willing to have this be enough for a happy M? has she fixed what was wrong in the first place within her... the thing that made her hunt down an available man when SHE was married?

 

if she hasn't - the M is doomed.

 

so ask her if she's found what made her do it - and what she has done to make things different so she doesn't do this again. (and for you, this has nothing to do with you - SHE is the one who did this- and she is the one that needs to find out and work through it).

 

so my question to you is - considering everything i have just written - where do you (and the marriage) stand with your wife's recovery?

[Spark1111]

I want to add this:

 

In IC I was told that an obession with the OM/OW is really a diversion from the feelings of anger you feel towards the WS. That you wished your WS was communicating more with you; the details of the affair, the feelings or "WHY" that lead to the affair; and the feelings that were felt during the affair.

 

I, too, had a hard time wrappping my head around a person who would engage with a MP.

 

But, upon further examination and healing and growth, I had no choice but to examine that it takes two to tango.

 

And then the really hard part of forgiving my WS began.

[dprtman09]

ok - so to the original premise...

 

you asked about the single guy... he answered - he could - because he's single. yep, he is right. he also stated that your W pursued... we all know that she hasn't exactly ben forthcoming...

 

so...

 

if she was pursuing and hasn't given the full truth - then what are we left to believe?

 

that she doesn't want you to know the truth because she wanted him, pursued him until he paid attention, then got caught.

 

so what is a gal to do? deny, and leave out info so she can have you take her back.

 

 

now that you seem to think things are ok - she's unwilling to revisit her truth. without the truth, nothing can be better, it is just a cover up about what the real problem may be. and how it can be repaired.

 

are you willing to have this be enough for a happy M? has she fixed what was wrong in the first place within her... the thing that made her hunt down an available man when SHE was married?

 

if she hasn't - the M is doomed.

 

so ask her if she's found what made her do it - and what she has done to make things different so she doesn't do this again. (and for you, this has nothing to do with you - SHE is the one who did this- and she is the one that needs to find out and work through it).

 

so my question to you is - considering everything i have just written - where do you (and the marriage) stand with your wife's recovery?

 

You covered a lot of territory here. Let me see if I can give you the answers you deserve.

 

First--Witness(s) have reported that he had an eye on her for a while before it all began. She sensed it but paid no heed at first. It was brought to her attention by her Asst. Mgr. The fact that he constantly hung around her office when he didn't have to and the fact that he tried to get her to transfer to the office that was supposed to be his headquarters speaks volumes. She didn't.

 

She has told me repeatedly that she was unhappy with several events that had taken place in the first four years of our marriage (none of which could really be blamed on either ONE of us). She began to think that our marriage would be a stream of negative events.

 

That's when, according to her, the escaping began. He had been hinting around about taking her to her favorite restaurant for a while (again, witnessed) and she finally took him up on it. That night, they ate and he asked her to go to his place. They went and watched TV. She had a bottle of water and when she was ready to leave, she took it to his kitchen. On her way out of the kitchen, he grabbed her and kissed her. She then thought, "what have I gotten into now?". She does not take to being physically touched in that forward a manner by someone with whom she has no prior relationship. She never let him get any further and he figured the reason why was because we still slept together. That's why he objected to that.

 

The big problem was that he "made her laugh" and didn't challenge her in any way. They didn't have to talk about bills or our son or any domestic problems. It gave her an escape from her perceived insurmountable problems at home. They basically had nothing domestic to talk about. That was out of the scope of his ideas and he could tell her whatever she wanted to hear. He had nothing to lose. The insurmountable problem occurred on dday.

 

After dday, he said he'd "take care of her and (our son)" if we lost our jobs (there was an issue in Ohio that could have caused that). She didn't trust him that much. I mentioned elsewhere that she has a difficult time trusting people who smile too much. They went on line and he offered to buy her expensive things. She did not want to be beholding to him. She earns her own way.

 

Basically, the relationship was going nowhere and she knew it. She just resisted telling him that because, for a while she either saw or desired no way out. Meanwhile, he told one of her close friends that he wanted to be with her if I was out of the way. She never intended to leave me. I offerred her the opportinity to do so. She declined. He knew that. It ate him up.

 

She is not unwilling to revisit events at this point. We have just revisited them many times already. All of the evidence points to the fact that she was pursued until she caught him. Granted, it was totally wrong for her to be caught, but the concept is age-old in the rearing of a male child. Pursue the woman until she catches you, aka, courting.

 

If you really step back, you might have to ask yourself if she really made that good an effort not to get caught. Even she said that she could have covered her tracks a whole lot better than she did. It would have come out no matter what, but how much later or further along? My best friend said I was fighting a fantasy, not a man. He was right.

 

Now, she realizes that I can be the man she married. I like to have fun--always did. I don't like to be burdened with constant talk of life's problems, I like to solve them. She cannot carry so much baggage and be a manager, a mother, and a wife. Her priorities no longer include a fantasy relationship. She knows now that he had nothing to lose and she had a lot to lose. Moreover, he didn't and doesn't care about that.

 

She now acknowledges that we are two smart people and together, we can overrun much more that we can alone.

 

I may never know exactly what signal she kept giving him up until NC. She can only say that it went on because she kept taking his calls after she would tell him not to. She kept backsliding. Once he tipped his hand and told me that she did not want to save our M, she realized that it was HER responsibility to end one of the relationships. She dumped him. NC was broken twice since September of "08. The last thing she texted to him was"f**k off", and the last thing he texted was f**k you, too". I don't know what got it there and I don't care. It just backed up what I told her all along. He was just along for the ride (which, in a real sense, he never got).

 

This past Christmas, I saw her smile and laugh more than she has in a few years. It was good to see because she was acknowledging that she could be happy within the boundaries of our relatioship.

 

Lastly, NO, just because he is single does NOT make him right. He's just a jackass that saw a hot piece and went after it.

[dprtman09]

I want to add this:

 

In IC I was told that an obession with the OM/OW is really a diversion from the feelings of anger you feel towards the WS. That you wished your WS was communicating more with you; the details of the affair, the feelings or "WHY" that lead to the affair; and the feelings that were felt during the affair.

 

I, too, had a hard time wrappping my head around a person who would engage with a MP.

 

But, upon further examination and healing and growth, I had no choice but to examine that it takes two to tango.

 

And then the really hard part of forgiving my WS began.

 

You are positively 100% right. I still have private moments of anger over what she put me through. Perhaps I had to redirect it in order to focus on the first priority of healing. However, with the help of this thread, I am finally resolving that problem. She knows how hurt I was and that I have "flashbacks". When I act that way, she reminds me of her objectives in a kind way, not by warning me not to bring it up. Her actions speak louder than words. It may have been driven by guilt at first, but it has evolved into a process on her part of managing the remnants of the conflict and rebutting my fears by showing me what she has decided rather than describing it. That is a big step forward. I don't expect her to forget that she had feelings for the OM. I just know that she will not act on them again. Everyone remembers everyone that had an effect on them, it's just a matter of deciding whether it was a positve or negative effect and putting it in its place.

 

I no longer want to waste my time and energy on a man who, as I pointed out to 2sunny, was no more than a jackass who saw a hot piece and went after it. Whatever drove my W to do what she did is in its place now and we need to continue to leave it behind. We own it, it doesn't own us. We own our marriage, it doesn't own us. Most important, she no longer feels unduly constrained by her responsibility to the marriage. If she owns it, it is her duty to do her part to keep it in good repair. No one can jump up all of a sudden and replace what she already has.

 

I'd still like to get the OM alone with me and a baseball bat, but I am, after all, a guy and he broached my territory. We just have to use rationality over instinct sometimes.

[dprtman09]

I agree. and I think the OP became understandably frustrated because I think in many ways we strayed off the main question that he wanted answered....and that was a question of any single men who had been in the same position as the OM in this case.

 

Of course it didn't help either that I pointed out the denial aspect to the OP on more than one occasion. I was not trying to do it to slam the OP but it I think it was taken that way.

 

I can only ask Dprtman...are you 100 percent confident that you have gotten everything answerwise you sought from your wife? I know you want more answers from the OM but I think you can see for yourself that no more answers wish be coming from him.

 

I wish you well. Now if you will excuse me I am going to watch BANACEK

 

Thank you. I guess the reason I took it as a slam was becuse I never denied what was happening from the moment I suspedted through dday and through the whole grisly process. I never denied what COULD have happened, but I never ceased going after, to the best of my ability and resources what PROBABLY happened (NUMB3ERS).

 

At times, we all play the devil's advocate. It allows for more objectivity in the long run. I do it all the time. Y'all come back now, y' hear?

[2sunny]

now that you seem to think things are ok - she's unwilling to revisit her truth. without the truth, nothing can be better, it is just a cover up about what the real problem may be. and how it can be repaired.

 

are you willing to have this be enough for a happy M? has she fixed what was wrong in the first place within her... the thing that made her hunt down an available man when SHE was married?

 

if she hasn't - the M is doomed.

 

so ask her if she's found what made her do it - and what she has done to make things different so she doesn't do this again. (and for you, this has nothing to do with you - SHE is the one who did this- and she is the one that needs to find out and work through it).

 

since you keep avoiding the real questions and answering the same thing over and over - it gets us no where... except the same place as before.

 

for growth in your M - you need NEW info... NEW answers... otherwise you just keep staying stuck in the same place.

 

if you are unwilling to ask her for all of the truth - and she's unwilling to give more... it will always look the same.

 

i know it's painful to grow, but it does help to make progress.

[dprtman09]

but you are making excuses for her and blaming him more than her.

 

OK, I am a minor expert in semantics. Here goes. I don't give a flying f**k what he thinks. He lost. That's what I've learned here. He came on to her and she followed. She has admitted that. Why beat a dead horse? Where it is possible that she may still be making some excuses, guilt plays many tricks and I have to give her time to present whatever is left of her side. There is no excusing what she has done from an ethical standpoint, but human ethics are precluded by higher commands. Do onto others as you would have them do onto you.

 

You are right, but don't read me wrong. I had a right to be really, d**m angry and I was. The trick is to redirect energy to something productive and two-sided, not to remain adversaries over something that is now dead (the A).

 

He had the ability to NOT have an A, but chose to pursue it and try to build it. That won't change, either, but--he lost.

[dprtman09]

Thanks TDP ... I did try and answer the original question as posed.

 

Incidentally (and it probably won't put anyones mind at rest) .. After 5 years when she contacted me we had a very open conversation at that time (and there was no reason for it not to be honest, she knew I was no longer interested and it was more like an old friends type chat) ... (we even laughed at the lies she told ... which were about 10x bigger than I thought !!!)

 

A couple of the, relevant things to this post, she told me was:

 

a) the emotional pressure put on her by her H was immense ... tears, threats, promises of change, offers of a "different" future, commitemnt to change work patterns

b) the pressure on her from everyone else was immense ... family, friends, colleagues,society etc ... she said she felt judged and pressurised in every direction ..

 

She also said, once she caved in, she caved in completely .. "they" had won, she would be the dutifull wife and everyone would be happy and the pain of the pressure would go away. J (ie herself) would have to wait/learn to live with it.

 

So they had two kids etc etc, got on with life, did the same as everyone else until eventually she realised that she was killing who she was deep inside to live up to what "life" expected her to be.

 

She realised (over the years) that she just didn't want to be there but that the pressure of the time didn't allow her to fully understand herself.

 

I have never betrayed anyone I loved .. although I have done the dirty on people who I didn't love enough. I know when I love someone and I argue that it's impossible to betray someone you truly love ... you just can't do it.

 

I have loved two such people in my life and I would have found it physically impossible to betray them .. And I love them no less due to the fact that life never allowed us to be together.

 

As I said before I really do wish you guys the best and I am not saying she doesn't love you. What I am saying again is that the answer is inside you .. do you love her ... could you betray her ... what does her love for you feel like to her ...

 

I'm a firm believer that ultimately if you truly love someone then you encourage them to soar to the highest heights they can reach and encourage them to open doors and realise potential in themselves that they don't yet know ...

 

I *love* my daughter with every breath of my being, and I know that as I encourage her to grow and see the beauty of life and her own soul that she will go places that I can't ...

 

And love means I want that for her ... no matter that it means playing a lesser day to day role in her life ..

 

And somewhere in this there is a point worth considering I tend to feel ..

 

When I D'd (my choice) I encouraged my wife to have counselling, supported her financially to get on her feet and even counselled her and her new love later in the year when they had some issues .. not out of guilt but because love has many forms.

 

People thought i was mad, but why would I not want someone who I'd cared enough to marry (albeit I was too young to understand what part of me I was giving up) to soar and reach the maximum heights they could?

 

When my relationship with the mother of my child ended I did the same .. made sure that we fought for an arrangement that was best for OUR child for BOTH of us (even though I could have gone for sole custody as I was the main carer) ... and we still do ... I supported her through getting a law degree even though we were no longer together ...

 

It may be a bit wierd, but again, why would I not want the mother of my child to be a succesful, happy adult ...and to experience all she wants in this life??? The one thing I cannot give her is me in a relationship ... anything else, provided it doesn't hurt me, I try and give my support.

 

Most of us would do it for strangers or friends (ie try and support them) but sometimes it's hard to do it for the ones we love because our own needs are affected ...

 

Sorry for the digression, but it all comes down to what do you believe love is? It seems to me that your wife must have been unhappy in some way or form (not necessarily with you I agree ) and that even at it's very least the A was a cry for help?

 

Sometimes helping someone involves helping them grow to a new position in life and sometimes that means you're role in their life changes ... unconditional love to me is doing that which is best for them.

 

Which rambling brings me back to my point .. this is all about her and not about the OM. And what you want to do with your life is all about you and not her.

 

Support each other, encourage each other to fly as high as you can .. and forget about him ... if you end up flying together then that's a bonus if you don't then you've still done love proud by brining out the best in each other ...

 

Three final thoughts:

 

first - No-one can soar from a cage .. (and perhaps that's the challenge of any relationship)

second - sometimes when we fly we need to rest a while, and maybe for you two that's what this time is about, resting, looking down on where you've been, considering where you might fly now ...

third - there's never any guarantee that your paths will always be the same ... but as long as they are, then forget about the OM's path and enjoy flying together ...

 

Be well guys

 

Chris

 

ps: People tell me I see the best in everyone ... I always disagree I just look for the person in everyone ...

 

Your last few paragraphs were (to me) outrageously, flagrantly, fatastically correct. Been there, done that. WOW! Don't even have a point to make here that you didn't make. Don't know who or where you are, just keep being there and follow your own advice. You'll succeed if you haven't already.

 

THIS IS NOT SARCASM. I'M TRULY AMAZED.

[dprtman09]

I've been a OM and also had an A .. seperate relationships, a long time apart and after my A I stood up for myself and divorced.

 

Even with this "experience" I just can't work out where you're trying to go with this?

 

- Has your wife told you the truth .. maybe, maybe not .. only time will tell

- Is the marriage saved .. maybe, maybe not ... only time will tell

 

Either way a joint obsession with what the OM thought seems odd at best .. and pretty toxic at worst.

 

You're treating him as if he's a differnet species .. he's not .. he's a human being just like you. If you want to understand him then just put yourself in his shoes ..

 

- perhaps he was at a point of low confidence in his life and therefore his "common sense" radar wasn't working ...

- perhaps he has issues from childhood which means he can only connect with poeple he can't have

- perhaps he really liked your wife and was suprised (and pleased) to find out she was available ...

- perhaps he had a bet with his mates he could get in her pants ...

- perhaps he loves red and your wife always wore red ...

 

OK, it's getting silly, but the point is that these are some possibilities and there are many more ... but there are two truths in all of them ...

 

1) NONE of these situations on their own caused an affair .. your wife willingly did that all by herself in taking part in a relationship whilst she was married

2) The other man doesn't need to tell you which one it was .. you wife can tell you ..

 

Did it feel like love to her? Given that it was a slowly developng emotional based affair rather than a one night stand then that looks likely. (Did she tell him she loved him?).

 

What did she also tell him (real or implied) to signal her availability/willingness. Did she tell him your marriage was over. Did she say she was thinking of leaving you. Did she manage to spend whole evenings and nights with him (which a normally married person just cannot do?). He got some sign for sure .. he;'s a guy like you and I and we both know we're not that bright at reading signs !!! so it was a pretty damn obvious one !!!!

 

Your poor wife knows this already ... and if that hasn't been shared with you then I'd be concerned for you both.

 

If she has shared it then what do you need him for .. to confirm what she says. If you need that then you don;t trust her and you still have issues - so again I'd be concerned for you.

 

Something that might be worth both of you pondering ... my married woman's husband reacted exactly like you ... took control, mastered a plan, decided he wanted to win .....

 

.... only I was never an enemy .. yes I really did care for her but heck she was an adult and it wasn;t up to me (or him) whether she chose to be in her marriage or not (it was up to her and her alone)

 

5 YEARS after she stayed with him she contacted me desperate to leave him ...

 

My point here is not what my answer was but that it was 5 years and she was chasing me.

 

So you;ve won .. but do you know at what cost ... (and do you know the enemy ... I'll give you a clue it perhaps wasn't the OM)

 

And your wife .. she;s been "shock and awe'd" by your operation .. but again, do you know at what cost???

 

Incidentally, my reason for being the original OM ... I was at a vunerable period in my life and wasn;t respecting MY boundries (ie avoiding relationships which were likely to do me harm) AND she told me her marriage was over and she was leaving him ... and I believed her.

 

She was a decent person, I genuinly liked her and I feel sorry that she is not happy now.

 

Wishing you both the best individually and as a couple if that's what you both decide ..

 

Chris

 

One final thought .. I do hope that working out how the OM thinks is not part of a plan to put in place an operation that will keep all OM away from your wife in the future. If so that's scarily controlling. Like I said, I hope it;s not , just an afterthought :-)

 

Thank you for answering my original question.

 

Upon examination and discussions with my W, I have concluded that your first and third "perhapses" are most likely true. Also your points 1 and 2 are absolutely true. She said she did not love him, but she felt that he loved her. She said that she never told him she would leave me (that was one of his issues), but he thought the marriage might be over (he told me that). She never spent the night with him. Early evenings with a cover story and interrupted phone calls when he was on call waiting, yes, but, as I pointed out elsewhere, a total of about 3 days out of eight months if you really add up the time on the phone and together. That blew her away when she digested it. I asked her straight out on these points, by the way. She says that the "sign" was that she kept calling him or taking his calls several times after she had told him that she no longer wanted to see or talk to him any more. The OM was not my enemy, he was an enemy to the M. Once my W and I decided that our M was worth saving, we won and he lost. Glad you set that straight! I don't have to have a plan to keep the OM away, she does. I don't think he'll be around anyway. Indications are he's been a womanizer for a long time.

[road]

"He had been hinting around about taking her to her favorite restaurant for a while (again, witnessed) and she finally took him up on it. That night, they ate and he asked her to go to his place. They went and watched TV. She had a bottle of water and when she was ready to leave, she took it to his kitchen. On her way out of the kitchen, he grabbed her and kissed her. She then thought, "what have I gotten into now?". She never let him get any further and"

 

And you believe this?

 

What woman does not know what is on a mans mind when he takes her out to a restaurant that she really wants to go to, then agrees to go back to his place just for water and TV?

 

The OM wanted desert after the restaurant back at his place and your WW put herself on the menu. Because every one knows what the OM was about including your WW.

 

Except for you.

[2sunny]

"He had been hinting around about taking her to her favorite restaurant for a while (again, witnessed) and she finally took him up on it. That night, they ate and he asked her to go to his place. They went and watched TV. She had a bottle of water and when she was ready to leave, she took it to his kitchen. On her way out of the kitchen, he grabbed her and kissed her. She then thought, "what have I gotten into now?". She never let him get any further and"

 

And you believe this?

 

What woman does not know what is on a mans mind when he takes her out to a restaurant that she really wants to go to, then agrees to go back to his place just for water and TV?

 

The OM wanted desert after the restaurant back at his place and your WW put herself on the menu. Because every one knows what the OM was about including your WW.

 

Except for you.

 

i highly doubt that is the way that scenario went down... it's just the version she told.

 

she went to dinner knowing she had no business going with him to begin with. then she accepted an offer to watch tv at his house ... (do you see how utterly lame this excuse sounds)?

 

first of all - it's correct - a MW doesn't go to another man's house without her H unless she has something in mind. it just doesn't happen. she had no right going to dinner much less to his house. second, she had to have been giving him major body language vibes that told him she was willing to have him kiss (or more?) her. and water? highly doubt that to... ask her if the dinner included alcohol - and what exactly she drank at his house... i bet it was more alcohol.

 

but that's just my own take from hearing the real version from so many folks in her position. the cheating partner will always present a more innocent, watered down version to the spouse - always.

 

 

believe what you want - but i can guarantee you don't have half the truth.

[Dexter Morgan]

OK, I am a minor expert in semantics. Here goes. I don't give a flying f**k what he thinks.

 

then why do you want to contact him?

 

 

He lost.

 

you really think so? I think he was actually spared. Thats like running in a race and the prize is a good punch in the nose. Losing only makes sense unless one is a masochist.

 

 

He came on to her and she followed. She has admitted that. Why beat a dead horse?

 

dunno...again, you are the one wanting to contact him. if the horse is dead, then let it be.

[dprtman09]

"He had been hinting around about taking her to her favorite restaurant for a while (again, witnessed) and she finally took him up on it. That night, they ate and he asked her to go to his place. They went and watched TV. She had a bottle of water and when she was ready to leave, she took it to his kitchen. On her way out of the kitchen, he grabbed her and kissed her. She then thought, "what have I gotten into now?". She never let him get any further and"

 

And you believe this?

 

What woman does not know what is on a mans mind when he takes her out to a restaurant that she really wants to go to, then agrees to go back to his place just for water and TV?

 

The OM wanted desert after the restaurant back at his place and your WW put herself on the menu. Because every one knows what the OM was about including your WW.

 

Except for you.

 

Of course that's what he wanted! I'm a guy and I know that sex is first and then love. I also know that love is first before sex on a woman's mind. He figured he paid for the extras. She was a d**n fool for even letting him think he would get them. You know about women. too. But, my W is old school. No sex on the first date. For seven years following her first husband's death, no sex at all. She is in control of her "urges", if you will, and a long investigation of her history and self-image would bear that out. I don't think it's necessary at this point to go into those details. Suffice it to say that she would have every reason not to tell me if she had gone to bed with him, but she admitted that they kissed more than once. I don't know about you, but in my years, I have dated and physically touched or kissed more than one woman without going to bed. Did she know he wanted a piece? She's not stupid. She also knew that he was not a rapist.

 

Etc., Etc., Etc.

 

Read the whole thread. It's an education.

[dprtman09]

i highly doubt that is the way that scenario went down... it's just the version she told.

 

she went to dinner knowing she had no business going with him to begin with. then she accepted an offer to watch tv at his house ... (do you see how utterly lame this excuse sounds)?

 

first of all - it's correct - a MW doesn't go to another man's house without her H unless she has something in mind. it just doesn't happen. she had no right going to dinner much less to his house. second, she had to have been giving him major body language vibes that told him she was willing to have him kiss (or more?) her. and water? highly doubt that to... ask her if the dinner included alcohol - and what exactly she drank at his house... i bet it was more alcohol.

 

but that's just my own take from hearing the real version from so many folks in her position. the cheating partner will always present a more innocent, watered down version to the spouse - always.

 

 

believe what you want - but i can guarantee you don't have half the truth.

 

First off, my W has not touched alcohol in fifteen years. She won't even take prescription drugs unless there is no alternative. Her first husband and father were sober alcoholics (in AA). Put it to rest!

 

Secondly, men are really bad at reading signals form women. The fact that she was available in the way she was would be construed by anyone to be totally wrong, but available for what? That was up to her and I'm not going to rehash the reasons why it is hard to believe that she was EVER loose with her favors. In fact, it bothered her that he didn't, for lack of better words, ask for permission, when he approached her that way. By the way, let's not get silly and start arguing over what WOULD HAVE happened had he asked. He didn't and it bothered her. Leave it alone. Fact is, you and others talk in nebulous terms about "something in mind" and such, but you won't admit that thae something was anything less than everything. Dirty minds are also the devil's playground.

 

Wherever you were the last time I replied to you, go back there and look to your own words.