Can the OW "cheat" on her MM????

[elle01]

I have been in relationship with MM for ~9yr. I have grown tired of being alone on special occassions and holidays so he can be with his family. I told him that I have been unhappy for quite some time (this was not a suprise since we have been togehter so long). I have been talking to &friends with another man for a couple of months and went out with him two weeks ago. I didnt feel like I was obligated to say hey I have a date tonight.... so I didnt. Long story short, MM found out about the date I had with my new single friend and blew a gasket because he said I cheated on him because I kissed the new (single) guy.... I told him I kissed the friend and that I really liked him... He called me a whore and a cheater and nasty names and asked why he would want to marry a woman that would turn to another man when things got tough in the relationship (oxy-moron?) He said since his W has been transferred recently to another state and he stayed here... with me in my house with my older son and our son that we are at the pinnacle of having everything we have wanted for so long....

(BS BS BS) thats all I hear... After 9 years I really dont expect alot of change other than she will basically become the OW on weekends and holidays....

I just want to know if I am crazy??? I dont think I can cheat on him regardless of the circumstances since I am SINGLE and he is MARRIED....

His opinion is that he is not being deceitful to me and that I knew he was married very early on in the relationship and my opinion is he knew he was married too and he knew I was single...

He makes me feel like I am wrong... even a whore for wanting to be with someone besides him....

But as I type this "cry for an outsiders point of view" it is almost laughable. Of course he would try to make me feel like that so I would want to stay right here with him...... ???? right????

[Woggle]

Why not just dump him and find somebody that you can be with on the holidays? I am very much against cheating but a man who is cheating himself has no right to demand you be faithful.

[Shouldacouldawoulda]

OMG this touches home for me. I have been asked out on several dates, and I always turn them down because of MM. He says "While I can't tell you not to go because of my situation, I'd much rather you didn't and just be mine." Or something to that effect. So I haven't gone out with anyone else. But lately I've been thinking I might. How will I ever know if there's not someone AVAILABLE out there for me? I don't personally think it's cheating as in effect, the R with the MM is already based on cheating. Plus, I wouldn't lie about it. I would tell MM if I went out with anyone else. In your case, I don't think he had a right at all to get angry with you. Remind him that he "goes out" with someone else every night he goes home to his BW. You are no whore for exploring your options especially when he quite obviously is exploring his! It's their way of making us feel guilty, of staying with them. It's totally ok for them to have two (maybe more??) women, but if we try to have an innocent dinner or date even a kiss, it's not ok? Double standard to the extreme! I say keep doing what you're doing. If it bothers him enough, then maybe he will finally make his choice firmly! (Now, if I could only have the strength to do as I preach...LOL)

[elle01]

I am glad to hear that I am not the only person on earth going through this right now, I just feel like I am passing up a potential future with someone in order to maintain this ridiculous relationship... We do have a child and BW knows and knows how long we have been together but after 9 years and a child I have grown tired of the chaos..

[Shouldacouldawoulda]

Elle - I totally get it. I have been in a 3 yr. R with my MM. BW has no clue. There's a small part of me who loves hearing him say "I want you for myself." Then my brain kicks in and says "What an S.O.B.! Of course he does because then he might lose his bit on the side!" Now, finding the strength to move on and actually get back out there to date and meet men to have healthy Rs with is a whole other story. I'm still trying to figure that one out. I just wanted you to know that you are by no means a whore for kissing another man. We also are by no means whores just by virtue of being OW.

 

I hope you and your child enjoy the holidays. I have two of my own children by my xH (not MM). Christmas and New Years (with my bday) are two of the hardest days of the year for me in regards to the A. I can't even think about what MM is doing at the moment or I will go to a bad place in my mind, and that's not fair to my family. I hope you can continue to explore available, healthy relationships. Who knows? Mr. Right could be your next date!

[torranceshipman]

God what a bunch of complete abusive, selfish, nasty freaks these guys are. A whore? Are you kidding me? That guy is complete trash for saying that to you, and trash for making you hang around 9yrs for him. what a complete b@stard. You have it in your power to walk away-in fact, so does everyone on this thread. You really shouldn't be putting up with this crap.

[Shouldacouldawoulda]

I think we all know we shouldn't be putting up with any part of an A...

 

I think the OP is a real, valid issue (one I have struggled with myself). We have it in our power to walk away, of course, but this forum is also for those of us who are having difficulty with that. Calling her a whore or saying they don't want you to date is just a passive-aggressive form of control.

Edited December 25, 2009 by Shouldacouldawoulda
I hate typos of my own!

[White Flower]

I have been in relationship with MM for ~9yr. I have grown tired of being alone on special occassions and holidays so he can be with his family. I told him that I have been unhappy for quite some time (this was not a suprise since we have been togehter so long). I have been talking to &friends with another man for a couple of months and went out with him two weeks ago. I didnt feel like I was obligated to say hey I have a date tonight.... so I didnt. Long story short, MM found out about the date I had with my new single friend and blew a gasket because he said I cheated on him because I kissed the new (single) guy.... I told him I kissed the friend and that I really liked him... He called me a whore and a cheater and nasty names and asked why he would want to marry a woman that would turn to another man when things got tough in the relationship (oxy-moron?) He said since his W has been transferred recently to another state and he stayed here... with me in my house with my older son and our son that we are at the pinnacle of having everything we have wanted for so long....

(BS BS BS) thats all I hear... After 9 years I really dont expect alot of change other than she will basically become the OW on weekends and holidays....

I just want to know if I am crazy??? I dont think I can cheat on him regardless of the circumstances since I am SINGLE and he is MARRIED....

His opinion is that he is not being deceitful to me and that I knew he was married very early on in the relationship and my opinion is he knew he was married too and he knew I was single...

He makes me feel like I am wrong... even a whore for wanting to be with someone besides him....

But as I type this "cry for an outsiders point of view" it is almost laughable. Of course he would try to make me feel like that so I would want to stay right here with him...... ???? right????

What a piece of work this guy is.

 

People are allowed to change and redefine their Rs at any given time. Fashions change, people change, and so do relationships. You decided you do not like the dynamics of your R anymore and rather than give him up you decided he needed to share you. JUST LIKE YOU ARE SHARING HIM.

Tell him to put on his big boy panties and take it like a man.

 

Or he can make some changes you both can live with.

[White Flower]

I am glad to hear that I am not the only person on earth going through this right now, I just feel like I am passing up a potential future with someone in order to maintain this ridiculous relationship... We do have a child and BW knows and knows how long we have been together but after 9 years and a child I have grown tired of the chaos..

No, you aren't the only one going through this. There are hundreds of guys out there waiting to be your Prince Charming and you keep turning your nose up at them because your MM likes where he sleeps at night.

 

The key is chemistry. If you find a guy that you can relate to AND find chemistry with him then dump the MM! Sounds like it's his way or the highway and you need to change that.

[elle01]

thank you all for your supportive replies.... I need to know that I am not crazy...(they like to make you think that in order to maintain control).... I am definitely tired of sharing him...

He says that because I knew he was married he is not lying and deceiving me so it is not the same.... What the hell....

[fooled once]

So why are you still with a guy who calls you a whore?

 

Is that what you want for your sons to hear/see?

 

Real nice guy you are having an affair with

 

To answer your question, which I really don't think is a question -- no, you aren't cheating on him. HE is cheating on his wife. Single people who date aren't cheating on anyone and he has got you believing all this crap.

 

walk away from him. Just because you have a child with him doesn't mean you need to stay with him and put up with his abuse.

[bentnotbroken]

What a douche. Fidelity to an unfaithful butt. Did you say you had a child together?

[elle01]

yes we do have a son he is 2. yes his W knows....

[torranceshipman]

Of course, I agree this forum is for people who have trouble walking away, which is exactly why I made the comments that I did. You guys are in abusive relationships and i am not going to help facilitate anyone to stay in that type of situation. If you have trouble leaving for yourself then think about your child-does he deserve parents where his dad calls his

mom a whore, who is a bully and who hides him/her as well as his mom as dirty little secrets for years on end? what kind of role models are they? That's an awful situation for a child-you need to give them a better head start on that. Really there are so many good guys out there who you could look after you and be a great role model for your child. Don't say you can't walk away-there is no such thing as can't in this type of situation.

[elle01]

So why are you still with a guy who calls you a whore?

 

Is that what you want for your sons to hear/see?

 

Real nice guy you are having an affair with

 

To answer your question, which I really don't think is a question -- no, you aren't cheating on him. HE is cheating on his wife. Single people who date aren't cheating on anyone and he has got you believing all this crap.

 

walk away from him. Just because you have a child with him doesn't mean you need to stay with him and put up with his abuse.

 

Funny thing... he asked me if I was a whore... I guess he wanted to stop short of calling me a whore.. Again its the crazy thing that makes me question myself...

He says are you crazy... why would I want to marry a woman that thinks it is ok to turn to another man when the relationship gets bad....funny right.. I think there is a pot and kettle saying about this...

[elle01]

Of course, I agree this forum is for people who have trouble walking away, which is exactly why I made the comments that I did. You guys are in abusive relationships and i am not going to help facilitate anyone to stay in that type of situation. If you have trouble leaving for yourself then think about your child-does he deserve parents where his dad calls his

mom a whore, who is a bully and who hides him/her as well as his mom as dirty little secrets for years on end? what kind of role models are they? That's an awful situation for a child-you need to give them a better head start on that. Really there are so many good guys out there who you could look after you and be a great role model for your child. Don't say you can't walk away-there is no such thing as can't in this type of situation.

 

I agree its a form of abuse and not the best situation for a child... there are better situations and worse...

Walking away is easier said than done (like most hard things in life) especially after 9 years are invested. But I do understand and respect your opinion

[torranceshipman]

But don't you see, he DID call you a whore. He's just good at manipulating you. He's completly abusive. He's a nasty piece if work and he knows that what he is saying (about you being unfaithful) is absolute crap. He KNOWS this. It's just an excuse to emotionly beat on you when you aren't 100% controled by him. Reasoning with an abuser is the biggest waste if time as logic doesn't come into this. Particularly cruel is the way he pretended he was maybe closest to leaving his W (bull****) then you went and (shock horror) went in a date so ruined everything. This is the biggest crock ever-punishing you like that. I would truly kick this guys sorry pathetic little ass if I met him.

[fooled once]

I walked away from a 9 year marriage with a 6 year old.

 

Was it hard? Yes and No.

 

Was it needed?

 

YES

 

Until you respect yourself, no one else will respect you. Until you love yourself, no one will love you.

 

Your child is caught in this game you and his father are playing. STOP IT. Love your child more than you love yourself and do NOT continue to raise him in this abusive environment.

Edited December 26, 2009 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[jwi71]

Elle...the problem is YOU.

 

For 9 years(!) you accepted the crumbs he offered.

You bore him a son. His W knows.

 

In this A...you have ZERO power. You lost it years ago.

 

Sorry but YOU gave HIM this power and control. And you did it by accepting it for years. Oh...he may have never called you a whore before...he just treated you like one. And you accepted it.

 

Why would HE change this again? Exactly what incentive does he have?

 

People train others on HOW they are to be treated. And, by your ACTIONS, you gave yourself to him. So yeah, he's pretty pissed you cheated on him. Hypocritical? Not to him. Mostly because his W knows and he is, in a perverted sense in two R's - one a marriage and the other...you, his long term known A. See how I believe he views you. As HIS. Not free to live outside the confines of HIM. Just like a W. HE can see others...but you cannot. There are more than one set of rules here...you have your place, the W heres...and he can damn well do what he pleases.

 

So when you check out of the A...he FEELS and ACTS like a BS. And, in a rage, says some really unpleasant things. In his mind...it all makes PERFECT sense.

 

And here you are...nine years gone, with a new son and wanting more.

 

Well..the only you are going to get it (and you deserve it) is by throwing HIM to the garbage pile (presuming the garbage pile doesn't reject him).

 

Now...I have my own ideas on how YOU accomplish this. Normally I would spout them forth. Not this time.

 

What can YOU do to have the LIFE you deserve? What actions can you take?

[Fallen Angel]

An OW can cheat on her MM, if the ground-rules they both decided on are that they are to be mutually exclusive (for example, the MM who does not have sex with his W and asks his OW to not seek sex outside of their A) but unless it has been discussed, and agreed upon etc, then a single OW is just that, single.. and by virtue of being single is free to date, kiss or fu*k anyone she damned well pleases. If the MM doesn't like it, then he is free at any time to change his own relationship status, either freeing himself to be in a position to commit to the OW (DIVORCE) or, get the hell out of the A.

 

I am apalled that this assclown has the nerve to call you names after you have spent nine years and a child, waiting for him to... what exactly are you waiting for?? ... what is the outcome that YOU want??

 

Anyway, I say.. if he doesn't like it, maybe you can draw him a map to the door!!

[elle01]

I walked away from a 9 year marriage with a 6 year old.

 

Was it hard? Yes and No.

 

Was it needed?

 

YES

 

Until you respect yourself, no one else will respect you. Until you love yourself, no one will love you.

 

Your child is caught in this game you and his father are playing. STOP IT. If you can't, then give your child to someone else so that child doesn't have to grow up hearing daddy calling mommy a whore. Love your child more than you love yourself and do NOT continue to raise him in this abusive environment.

 

Before you spout those types of things please realize that I did not come here for advice about being a good mother... I manage that just fine... My son was at day care when this disagreement occurred.

Give my child to someone else because I am in an A? Really? Is that YOUR good judgement? His father and I both love him madly... Which is more than can be said for a lot of children in the world.

I will make sure that he understands the dynamic of all types of relationships good and bad, but we as humans are emotional beings and are some times (not validating) caught in situations that we look back on and regret getting involved with.

This is one of those situations. We were together for about 7 years before I got pregnant (wasnt a trap...we were careful... protection failed and abortion wasnt an option) and I do not regret that for a moment... this is a situation that will require two strong parents independent of the A and we will do that fully... regardless of the outcome.

There is no abuse in this household. Emotionally between myself and MM I can see the term abuse being used, but as far as arguments, loud screaming, crying, physical abuse...those are non existent so my child is not an abusive household.

Now with that being said, I appreciate your concern for my child and self as far as needing to STOP this. I agree 100% he needs to leave me alone or get a divorce... regardless we have created a disaster for our child, MM, W, and myself. We will all suffer from this A regardless of what decision is made...

[elle01]

An OW can cheat on her MM, if the ground-rules they both decided on are that they are to be mutually exclusive (for example, the MM who does not have sex with his W and asks his OW to not seek sex outside of their A) but unless it has been discussed, and agreed upon etc, then a single OW is just that, single.. and by virtue of being single is free to date, kiss or fu*k anyone she damned well pleases. If the MM doesn't like it, then he is free at any time to change his own relationship status, either freeing himself to be in a position to commit to the OW (DIVORCE) or, get the hell out of the A.

 

I am apalled that this assclown has the nerve to call you names after you have spent nine years and a child, waiting for him to... what exactly are you waiting for?? ... what is the outcome that YOU want??

 

Anyway, I say.. if he doesn't like it, maybe you can draw him a map to the door!!

 

First, I would never believe a MM in an A saying he is not sleeping with W. You dont have to agree the opinion is just mine. Of course he says it rarely happens, but I think they say what they think we expect to hear....

He has expected me not to seek sex outside the A (which I havent just a date and a goodnight kiss)

**I love your spunk by the way and agree with what you say** he just tells me that the two arent the same since I knew he was married and he is not lying to me about a relationship with her... He tells me that I must be crazy if I make the two things the same....OF course that is his manipulation of the situation to make himself look like a saint.... But I do question from time to time if he is right or if I am.... Its pure maddness

He is in a position now where she has transferred to another position out of town so he just says now that he is not going to move with her and get a divorce but after all of this time I wont believe it till I see it... Maybe the pressure of the OM wanting to date was the straw that broke the camels bacK... I dont know...

 

The outcome I used to want was for him to make a committment to me and for us to marry and be together and build a life together... but the longer I am here the less I think I want the W's life.... At one point it would have made me the happiest woman in the world, but now my joy is gone because I have waited so long and been through so much its not so special anymore...

[fooled once]

Before you spout those types of things please realize that I did not come here for advice about being a good mother... I manage that just fine... My son was at day care when this disagreement occurred.

Give my child to someone else because I am in an A? Really? Is that YOUR good judgement? His father and I both love him madly... Which is more than can be said for a lot of children in the world.

I will make sure that he understands the dynamic of all types of relationships good and bad, but we as humans are emotional beings and are some times (not validating) caught in situations that we look back on and regret getting involved with.

This is one of those situations. We were together for about 7 years before I got pregnant (wasnt a trap...we were careful... protection failed and abortion wasnt an option) and I do not regret that for a moment... this is a situation that will require two strong parents independent of the A and we will do that fully... regardless of the outcome.

There is no abuse in this household. Emotionally between myself and MM I can see the term abuse being used, but as far as arguments, loud screaming, crying, physical abuse...those are non existent so my child is not an abusive household.

Now with that being said, I appreciate your concern for my child and self as far as needing to STOP this. I agree 100% he needs to leave me alone or get a divorce... regardless we have created a disaster for our child, MM, W, and myself. We will all suffer from this A regardless of what decision is made...

 

Most women in abusive situations don't realize it nor are willing to admit it.

 

You think showing your son the dynamic that married people have affairs is a good thing??? I am confused -- why exactly would he need to know that?

 

The married man you are having an affair with is obviously NOT leaving his wife. If he was going to, he would have. You have shown him he doesn't have to value you or be true to you. His actions and his words show you he doesn't respect you. Is that what you want your son to learn? To not value females or respect them???

 

I remember the day my SS16 came here, furious that his mother had a guy spend the night. He called his mother a slut and a whore because she had been with one guy during the day and another during the night (she had sex with both according to him). He saw the actions his mother was doing and it disgusted him.

 

I would hate for your son to one day to and call you names because of YOUR actions.

 

Good luck and I hope you can find the strength to get out of this affair. It isn't going anywhere and you are wasting your life on a man married and committed to another woman.

 

I apologize if my saying a child shouldn't have to live in an abusive family upset you. I have a niece and a nephew living this life and the family is trying very hard to get the situation changed. My niece and nephew are hurting

Edited December 26, 2009 by fooled once

[Fallen Angel]

First, I would never believe a MM in an A saying he is not sleeping with W. You dont have to agree the opinion is just mine. Of course he says it rarely happens, but I think they say what they think we expect to hear....

He has expected me not to seek sex outside the A (which I havent just a date and a goodnight kiss)

**I love your spunk by the way and agree with what you say** he just tells me that the two arent the same since I knew he was married and he is not lying to me about a relationship with her... He tells me that I must be crazy if I make the two things the same....OF course that is his manipulation of the situation to make himself look like a saint.... But I do question from time to time if he is right or if I am.... Its pure maddness

He is in a position now where she has transferred to another position out of town so he just says now that he is not going to move with her and get a divorce but after all of this time I wont believe it till I see it... Maybe the pressure of the OM wanting to date was the straw that broke the camels bacK... I dont know...

 

The outcome I used to want was for him to make a committment to me and for us to marry and be together and build a life together... but the longer I am here the less I think I want the W's life.... At one point it would have made me the happiest woman in the world, but now my joy is gone because I have waited so long and been through so much its not so special anymore...

 

Then by his own logic, he knew you were single, and he has chosen to see to it that you remain that way, so as long as you are honest about the fact that you are dating other people, he has no reason to complain. After all, what is good for the gander, should be good for the goose...

[Shouldacouldawoulda]

Wow. There are far worse forms of "abuse" than a child being in daycare when his FATHER asks his MOTHER if she is a whore. Trust me, I work in a very low socioeconomic school district, and I have seen children who need to placed in other homes. Elle, your child wouldn't even be a blip on my radar (unless of course s/he is unfed, unclothed, and doesn't have other health/emotional/mental/physical needs met). Good God. Just because you are bitter about your A or your WS or for whatever reason doesn't automatically mean everyone else's situation amounts to **** also. I agree that your MM semi-calling you a whore was uncalled for, but an isolated incident (which it seems to be) doesn't amount to hideous abuse IMO. YMMV. I don't know one single person who has never uttered a nasty word or called someone else a nasty name, not one single person. Does that make us all abusers? And there are hundreds of thousands of people having affairs who are damn good parents. A child is going to realize something is wrong in a M with or without an OW/OM, and obviously, if MM/MW is turning to someone else there IS something wrong in that marriage. From what I read, Elle really seemed to be over the situation already and is just trying to gather strength/support to leave. Bashing her as a mother though? Seriously?

Edited December 26, 2009 by Shouldacouldawoulda
wrong pronouns end up making no sense!