Can the OW "cheat" on her MM????

[fooled once]

Wow. There are far worse forms of "abuse" than a child being in daycare when his FATHER asks his MOTHER if she is a whore. Trust me, I work in a very low socioeconomic school district, and I have seen children who need to placed in other homes. Elle, your child wouldn't even be a blip on my radar (unless of course s/he is unfed, unclothed, and doesn't have other health/emotional/mental/physical needs met). Good God. Just because you are bitter about your A or your WS or for whatever reason doesn't automatically mean everyone else's situation amounts to **** also. I agree that your MM semi-calling you a whore was uncalled for, but an isolated incident (which it seems to be) doesn't amount to hideous abuse IMO. YMMV. I don't know one single person who has never uttered a nasty word or called someone else a nasty name, not one single person. Does that make us all abusers? And there are hundreds of thousands of people having affairs who are damn good parents. A child is going to realize something is wrong in a M with or without an OW/OM, and obviously, if MM/MW is turning to someone else there IS something wrong in that marriage. From what I read, Elle really seemed to be over the situation already and is just trying to gather strength/support to leave. Bashing her as a mother though? Seriously?

 

If you read the first post, there was NO MENTION of where the child was when dad was asking mom if she was a whore.

 

So before jumping on ME - tell me where in the ORIGINAL post it stated that the child wasn't there???? I never bashed her as a mother - again - READ what was written. I showed MAJOR concern for a child. The innocent victim in affairs. The ones whose worlds are blown apart many times. Excuse me for being concerned about a child.

 

Bitter? ME? LOLOLOL

 

Sorry to burst that bubble, but I am happily married You are reading someone else's life, not mine. The Affair I was in was over 12 years ago. I have healed from it. But all MM are liars and cheats, UNLESS of course their WIVES know about the affair and are okay with it.

 

So much defensiveness ......

 

I post here to help and advice and share experiences. That is what this site is for. Not all people will agree with situations and that is what is great - because it offers people the chance to grow, to see things from another angel and to ponder situations. I don't think there is a single PERFECT person or PERFECT life. But I DO believe affairs only bring people down, cause emotional damage and internal hurt. I will continue to advocate leaving an affair, just like I would advocate leaving an abusive situation.

 

Feel free to use the ignore feature!

[Shouldacouldawoulda]

Not bitter or defensive in the least. Just have seen REAL abuse in children, and don't like seeing the term thrown around so loosely.

 

I also don't need to use the ignore feature because everyone is free to speak their own mind and opinion (just as I am). I just try to stay open-minded and not throw down the gavel of judgment on situations I am neither in nor know the nuances and subtleties of. Jumping right in with "Your child should be removed" was a little overboard IMO. Like I said, YMMV. No need to get panties in a wad.

 

I also think if someone is happily married and had an A over 12 years ago but is still posting in a support/discussion forum for OM/OW and saying ALL MM are slime (which of course would include YOUR MM - I didn't see the distinction of all MM who are WS?), perhaps total healing has not taken place. I'd like to think if I were in a long-term happy marriage, I wouldn't still be perusing this forum. But again, YMMV.

[elle01]

I dont think being in an argument with a significant other (insignificant in my case:p) heated or not is a detriment to a child. That, I do not consider abuse. And yes I think that my child should know that MM/MW and OW/OM have A and problems to boot. I think he should know that people are imperfect and R take a lot of work and commitment. I do not want him to believe that M is a fairy tale... because there is no castle or fairy tale. I want him to be wise and aware.

Mothers and Fathers participating in the up bringing of a child is far less detrimental to a child than having a parent be absent for the sole purpose of the child being protected from knowing the father was M...

He is a good father and I am a good mother and he is 2. He has no clue (at this point) that his father is M... I am sure that topic will come up at some point and he will not be lied to in order to protect him from knowing that sometimes things in life seem to be one thing and turn out to be something completely different.

He is loved beyond measure by both parents... and we do not use him as a tool against one another and are far too mature to do that. We both realize the position we have put him in and we also realize that if we assure him with love and understanding he will walk with confidence knowing he was created from the love of his parents.

However, I must say I think he will be just fine if I get mad and call his dad an as*hole for doing something totally stupid (as we know most men do) and he shouldnt be removed from his home because his daddy got pissed and said what are you, a whore? regardless if he was at daycare or home... He wouldnt distinguish the word any more than if his father said what are you, a horse.... at 2 even his vocabulary isnt that expanded... Lucky for me.... no???

[torranceshipman]

Oh please...I am a teacher, work with teens and have tutorials with a lot of them and don't even try saying that a marries man as a father who calls the mother a whore isn't an abusive situation. I see all types of abuse and all types happen...this situation can and will totally mess up a kid. Pretend to yourself it isn't abuse or isn't detrimental to the kid if it makes you feel better but let's just get a reality check here - this type of situation causes a lot of damage.

 

Btw this sounds harsh but isn't meant to be flame-or directed specifically at you-it is just saying that this situation will hurt a child, unfortunately. You'll discover this when he/she hits their teens. Good luck with it all.

Edited December 26, 2009 by torranceshipman

[elle01]

Oh please...I am a teacher, work with teens and have tutorials with a lot of them and don't even try saying that a marries man as a father who calls the mother a whore isn't an abusive situation. I see all types of abuse and all types happen...this situation can and will totally mess up a kid. Pretend to yourself it isn't abuse or isn't detrimental to the kid if it makes you feel better but let's just get a reality check here - this type of situation causes a lot of damage.

 

Btw this sounds harsh but isn't meant to be flame-or directed specifically at you-it is just saying that this situation will hurt a child, unfortunately. You'll discover this when he/she hits their teens. Good luck with it all.

 

Wow well since you are a teacher... I should put all my eggs in your basket.. and let me guess you and your SO have never spouted a bitter word to one another in front of your fragile children. They must be living a perfect life free from ill words or arguments or situations that occur life. My child is 2 and has no idea his father is married. He could very well be a traveling salesman now couldn't he. Dont put too much stock into an argument that happened when the child wasnt at home. It is not abuse to argue with a SO or to name call (it happens to the best of us when we are angry)... It is abuse if it is detrimental to the person being called the name. I am in no way a whore so him asking if I was .... was just a tactic to pull me back into his web and keep me from straying from our (unhealthy...non abusive) relationship...

[You'reasian]

I am glad to hear that I am not the only person on earth going through this right now, I just feel like I am passing up a potential future with someone in order to maintain this ridiculous relationship... We do have a child and BW knows and knows how long we have been together but after 9 years and a child I have grown tired of the chaos..

 

Never been married. Don't want to date married folks either or get involved outside if I get married. Is this wrong nowadays? lol

[Shouldacouldawoulda]

I'm also a teacher Elle. We work with children which means we understand the dynamics of children. Sometimes we aren't the best at understanding adult situations because of all of our time immersed with children. I have no idea which parents of my students are having EAs, usually have no idea which are even stepparents as opposed to biological parents. But I do hear all about which students are hungry, which are being touched inappropriately, which have no homes. Yes, family dynamics do affect a child, but I still stand by my original post on this: Him asking you if you're a whore isn't even a blip on the radar of abuse. I suppose I am "abusing" my kids by getting a no contact order and keeping their father away. At least your son has a loving, supportive father who is actively involved in his life. I see your situation as no different than if you had been married to his father, divorced, and his father remarried. Of course when your son is old enough to understand, it will come up. But also like you, I'd like to teach my kids that there are all types of relationships, and life is not a fairytale. I have often thought about what I would tell my daughter if she came to me as an adult and were in my situation. I think I would warn her to guard her heart, keep her eyes wide open, and love unabashedly. I don't ever see love as something that is wrong. (Sorry..not feeling well this morning and having a hard time being eloquent. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say here! LOL)

[torranceshipman]

Sorry that you were so offended by my post Elle. But you do sound so defensive and really, I am not surprised as you're in a tough situation. I'm simply telling you about my years of experience with teens, and yes, this situation is going to damage your kid. Sorry, I wish I could tell you something nicer & different but I'd be lying. Your MM made a disgusting comment to you about being a whore, and here you are, defending him, typical abused behavior. He's the enemy here, and you and your kid are in a very unhealthy situation. There are so many great single guys out there who could make you and your child so much happier, who would never treat you like crap, etc so it is so frustrating to see you willingly sticking around for such a crappy deal when you could do sooooo much better.

 

And in terms of a perfect R, noone cam have that but on the flip side you cam give a child the type of father he can look up to, who has respect for his/her mother, who isn't a congenital liar who has affairs, who has integrity, etc. That's really not so much to ask.

[Shouldacouldawoulda]

Hey torrance... do you know any men who will show respect and have integrity are and if so, will you send one my way? LOL Although I'm beginning to realize the problem lies within myself. I seem to have a knack for finding MM who want PA, single men who want PA, drug addicts, abusers, serial cheaters, and men with no jobs or ambition. I have had IC before, and I think it's time to go back!

 

Sorry, I KNOW I'm defensive in some of my posts, and I really am not like this IRL. I think I just feel like I'm "boiling over", you know?

[You'reasian]

Hey torrance... do you know any men who will show respect and have integrity are and if so, will you send one my way? LOL Although I'm beginning to realize the problem lies within myself. I seem to have a knack for finding MM who want PA, single men who want PA, drug addicts, abusers, serial cheaters, and men with no jobs or ambition. I have had IC before, and I think it's time to go back!

 

Sorry, I KNOW I'm defensive in some of my posts, and I really am not like this IRL. I think I just feel like I'm "boiling over", you know?

 

I would avoid Craig's List. I would avoid using the net to meet people. Need to be able to get a feel for a person face to face, learn about them, see them, be with them etc.

[torranceshipman]

Honestly, I think you'd do a good job of picking good ones if you put yourself out there! Not your fault if you meet idiots-the trick is to define strict boundaries and never ever compromise them and just leave, no matter what, at an unacceptable red flag. That way you make a list first without emotions making you accept less, then if a guy ends up doing something bad, in the heat of the moment instead of letting him off, you walk away!

 

Believe me I've dated my fair share of idiots and was once duped by a guy with a partner for a short time but I forced the break, despised him for being such a liar...was single for a while, dated some idiots (lol), had some fun times then met the love of my life-via Internet dating! Use a good site and it is possible to find someone great. If I'd stayed and tried to make it work with one of the less than good guys, I'd have missed meeting this amazing one I'm with now. Now I am literaly smug at my old self (funny!) when I compare my situation now with all that time ago with that guy who had a girlfriend. What a loser, an embarrasment actually, and not a patch on what I have now.

 

The other thing is, you won't see it now, but the A is taking away from oter great things that you would have in your life if u had a supportive partner. Next yr you could be having the coolest Xmas - you just need to walk away from bad news!

[fooled once]

Not bitter or defensive in the least. Just have seen REAL abuse in children, and don't like seeing the term thrown around so loosely.

 

I also don't need to use the ignore feature because everyone is free to speak their own mind and opinion (just as I am). I just try to stay open-minded and not throw down the gavel of judgment on situations I am neither in nor know the nuances and subtleties of. Jumping right in with "Your child should be removed" was a little overboard IMO. Like I said, YMMV. No need to get panties in a wad.

 

I also think if someone is happily married and had an A over 12 years ago but is still posting in a support/discussion forum for OM/OW and saying ALL MM are slime (which of course would include YOUR MM - I didn't see the distinction of all MM who are WS?), perhaps total healing has not taken place. I'd like to think if I were in a long-term happy marriage, I wouldn't still be perusing this forum. But again, YMMV.

 

 

No idea what YMMV means and seriously enough already. Still posting? I only found this site a year ago. And For your information, I didn't have a MM - he wasn't MINE. He was his wife's.

 

You don't know me. I have no long term hurt issues. I am very PRO marriage and against cheating. Call me a nut that way, but cheating is wrong. It hurts too many people, especially innocent people. But way too many OW are hurt by the lies. I mean, why are you here? Because the guy you want is married. So are you hurting? Why are you hurting? You knew he was married. Why are you pursing him? Why? Does his wife know you are pursing him? If not, why? If you believe affairs are okay, then you shouldn't care what I think. So - again, back off. I am a little sick of this crap.

[torranceshipman]

Many people hang around on this board long after an A has ended as they want to pass on what they learned to other OWs in the hope they can help some of them avoid making the same mistakes they did. I owe a lot to LSers who gave me a great advice even if I didn't want to hear all of it at the time-things might have worked out much worse if I hadn't found all the stories and advice on here...so I like to try and give some advice myself

these days. This place really can help if you're open to it.

[Shouldacouldawoulda]

Thanks torrance. You are right about needing to set boundaries. That is definitely not a strong suit of mine. I'm so glad to hear that you have moved on and have such a positive outlook on things. I have tentatively set up a couple of profiles on the two major internet dating sites. I just haven't delved into them yet. It's nice to know that is an option that works though.

 

FO - I never said I had a MM either or if I did use that word, it wasn't specific enough. I realize I don't know you. You also don't know me. I am also very pro-marriage if it is a healthy one. I also said somewhere that I knew I was causing my own misery. So what is your point? I am not pursuing him. He is pursuing me. I'm only allowing it to happen. The A will change when I decide to make a change which, once again - I think you asked me this on my post? - is why I am here: to gather information, support, and hope about making that change. I've also answered a bazillion times about his wife. She doesn't know I exist. Why not? Well, I suppose you'd have to ask him that question. I never, not once said As are okay. I believe I specifically said I believe in LOVE.

 

I'm still not quite understanding why someone who is so happily married, has been for years, and is very pro-marriage is posting in a forum that's very description says it is a support forum for OM/OW. I'm not attacking or bashing you. It's just a personal observation which is why YMMV. I'm sorry if you take offense by my honesty and candor, but I don't think I'll be going anywhere anytime soon. If you don't like my posting style, I'd suggest following your own advice and clicking ignore. I've gotten too much valuable information and support from people like torrance, Elle, Fallenangel, pureinheart...

 

YMMV - Your mileage may vary. I posted for several years on internet forums while pregnant with my children. I picked up a lot of acronyms along the way.

[elle01]

He is now claiming that he wants to leave and be here and build a life together..yet has stopped short of directly telling W that he wants a D.... and is very upset that I am not doing cart wheels because he is severing ties at home to be here??? Not at all sure what that means besides he is acting distant and unresponsive while there for the holiday.

He had been saying for years that he is working on getting out of the marriage (I had no idea it took that long to get out of a marriage that you didnt want to be in) without so much as saying I think we need to consider getting a divorce. He is accusing me of seeing someone else because I did go on a date with the guy I originally posted about (which I told him about and was very honest about)... He is out of town at the new house (where she transferred to) and thinks that I have been talking to the guy while he is gone... (which is not true) I just dont think its ok for me to keep giving up on my happiness so everyone else can have theirs... He says all I have done while I have been here is miss you and think about you... so why is he there??? Why isnt he here..why hasnt he said look I want to be with someone else or I dont love you anymore and we need to get a divorce?? Why am I wrong for saying look if you want to leave her then leave and work on winning me back but I am not making promises that I will be here waiting in the wings when and if he decides to finally make a decision on what he wants and where he wants to be with whom.... Havent I proven my love in the 9 years that I have been sitting here waiting for him to want this as bad as I did...

Why is everything different now because he SAYS he is leaving now???

[Shouldacouldawoulda]

Many people hang around on this board long after an A has ended as they want to pass on what they learned to other OWs in the hope they can help some of them avoid making the same mistakes they did. I owe a lot to LSers who gave me a great advice even if I didn't want to hear all of it at the time-things might have worked out much worse if I hadn't found all the stories and advice on here...so I like to try and give some advice myself

these days. This place really can help if you're open to it.

 

I love BTDT advice! I'm glad people who have ended things stay around. There's just a difference in honest, even sometimes hard to hear or harsh advice and passive aggressive jabs or outright bashing. I guess I don't understand why those people hang around. It seems like a lot of people who have moved on don't remember the pain and anguish, the indecision, the fear that comes along with it, and basically just say "Suck it up because you are wrong." I already know I'm the OW.

[Shouldacouldawoulda]

He is now claiming that he wants to leave and be here and build a life together..yet has stopped short of directly telling W that he wants a D.... and is very upset that I am not doing cart wheels because he is severing ties at home to be here??? Not at all sure what that means besides he is acting distant and unresponsive while there for the holiday.

He had been saying for years that he is working on getting out of the marriage (I had no idea it took that long to get out of a marriage that you didnt want to be in) without so much as saying I think we need to consider getting a divorce. He is accusing me of seeing someone else because I did go on a date with the guy I originally posted about (which I told him about and was very honest about)... He is out of town at the new house (where she transferred to) and thinks that I have been talking to the guy while he is gone... (which is not true) I just dont think its ok for me to keep giving up on my happiness so everyone else can have theirs... He says all I have done while I have been here is miss you and think about you... so why is he there??? Why isnt he here..why hasnt he said look I want to be with someone else or I dont love you anymore and we need to get a divorce?? Why am I wrong for saying look if you want to leave her then leave and work on winning me back but I am not making promises that I will be here waiting in the wings when and if he decides to finally make a decision on what he wants and where he wants to be with whom.... Havent I proven my love in the 9 years that I have been sitting here waiting for him to want this as bad as I did...

Why is everything different now because he SAYS he is leaving now???

 

I think you would be best to tell him to get a D then call you. Just saying he's "leaving" leaves things wide open & doesn't really change the situation for you anyway, does it? You really sound like you are so over it anyway...

[torranceshipman]

Because you know that he's just lying. He's on holiday with his W so is distant ad he is enjoying his family holiday and it is not convenient for him to give you time right now. He's such a douche for treating you like this. Yknow, it us probably because you are a nice, trusting, naive person that you are able to be manipulated and so trusting-men like him prey on nice trusting people. Don't lose those qualities as they make you a great person but being this way, you more than anyone (& shouldacouldawouda) need to draw up strong boundaries and STICK to them more than anyone else so you're not completely taken advantage of. I have to do this myself as I am naturally very trusting. Look how he has ruined your christmas-no one that loves you would make you feel like this!

[elle01]

come on now, nine years? you don't deserve to be hanging on like this, waiting for a man who will never really be able to commit to you... if he truly loved you, wouldn't he want you to move on and find someone who can really be "with you' and not only a portion of the time?

 

Seriously, you deserve better than this... and so does your child. I know it may be hard to end the relationship, but if you find it too painful to do it for yourself, then do it for your child. This must be hard on them.

 

I agree that I have gone above and beyond what most would do in this situation but I do truly love him. He is now "in the process" of leaving. She has transferred jobs to another state and he is staying here with me. He did go for this holiday (which I am not excusing) but I dont want to walk away if he is truly leaving....

[fooled once]

Thanks torrance. You are right about needing to set boundaries. That is definitely not a strong suit of mine. I'm so glad to hear that you have moved on and have such a positive outlook on things. I have tentatively set up a couple of profiles on the two major internet dating sites. I just haven't delved into them yet. It's nice to know that is an option that works though.

 

FO - I never said I had a MM either or if I did use that word, it wasn't specific enough. I realize I don't know you. You also don't know me. I am also very pro-marriage if it is a healthy one. I also said somewhere that I knew I was causing my own misery. So what is your point? I am not pursuing him. He is pursuing me. I'm only allowing it to happen. The A will change when I decide to make a change which, once again - I think you asked me this on my post? - is why I am here: to gather information, support, and hope about making that change. I've also answered a bazillion times about his wife. She doesn't know I exist. Why not? Well, I suppose you'd have to ask him that question. I never, not once said As are okay. I believe I specifically said I believe in LOVE.

 

I'm still not quite understanding why someone who is so happily married, has been for years, and is very pro-marriage is posting in a forum that's very description says it is a support forum for OM/OW. I'm not attacking or bashing you. It's just a personal observation which is why YMMV. I'm sorry if you take offense by my honesty and candor, but I don't think I'll be going anywhere anytime soon. If you don't like my posting style, I'd suggest following your own advice and clicking ignore. I've gotten too much valuable information and support from people like torrance, Elle, Fallenangel, pureinheart...

 

YMMV - Your mileage may vary. I posted for several years on internet forums while pregnant with my children. I picked up a lot of acronyms along the way.

 

I suggest YOU not worry about why I am posting

[Lizzie60]

I waited 11 years..

Finally got him.. and kept him 18 more years.. then left him.. He also wanted exclusivity.. but I cheated on him..

 

I have my theory on MM who wants exclusivity.. he wants you to sleep ONLY with him cause, that way, he's not worried about getting a STD... because, most of the time, they sleep with their W and their OW... so he's expecting both to be 'faithful' so he's safe.. from diseases.

 

Methink you're getting fed up with his bulls*it..

 

Tell him that you will do whatever you want ... regardless of what HE thinks.. and if he doesn't like it.. he can 'go to hell'... He's a control freak and he needs a little 'lesson'..

[Shouldacouldawoulda]

I'm not worried about why you are posting, I'm not worried about your situation, I'm not worried about whether you like me or approve of my morals, and I'm also not clear on why the need to hijack Elle's thread. I was trying to respond to Elle.

[skylarblue]

Wow…a wh*re…really…after sticking it out for 9yrs. I would have thrown his ass out the door for that.

You have every right to want to be in or pursue a R with a single man. Especially if you’ve been the one alone while he played H when expected or convenient for him. So I guess it’s convenient for him to have you play W now since his W has been transferred recently to another state and he stayed here. Well, I guess until weekends and holidays when he still leaves you at home alone to be with her. And that’s what he considers being at the pinnacle of having everything we have wanted for so long? Do you consider it your pinnacle? And if it’s the pinnacle it’s going to be a pretty sorry ride for here on.

If you had an “exclusive” R I guess I could see his view of being “cheated on”, but what a jerk to express himself that way. My thought is he seems more selfishly concerned about himself than you since it’s not like he’s separated from her to be exclusively with you. My MM recently told me that he would still want to see me, but he expects me to tell him if I starting dating someone. Prior to us having the conversation, I don’t think I would have told him nor would I thought of it as cheating if I saw someone else, but now I know what he expects and I agreed so I think that changed things. I would consider it cheating on him if I didn’t.

[elle01]

Wow…a wh*re…really…after sticking it out for 9yrs. I would have thrown his ass out the door for that.

You have every right to want to be in or pursue a R with a single man. Especially if you’ve been the one alone while he played H when expected or convenient for him. So I guess it’s convenient for him to have you play W now since his W has been transferred recently to another state and he stayed here. Well, I guess until weekends and holidays when he still leaves you at home alone to be with her. And that’s what he considers being at the pinnacle of having everything we have wanted for so long? Do you consider it your pinnacle? And if it’s the pinnacle it’s going to be a pretty sorry ride for here on.

If you had an “exclusive” R I guess I could see his view of being “cheated on”, but what a jerk to express himself that way. My thought is he seems more selfishly concerned about himself than you since it’s not like he’s separated from her to be exclusively with you. My MM recently told me that he would still want to see me, but he expects me to tell him if I starting dating someone. Prior to us having the conversation, I don’t think I would have told him nor would I thought of it as cheating if I saw someone else, but now I know what he expects and I agreed so I think that changed things. I would consider it cheating on him if I didn’t.

 

After 9 years it should be fine if I humped a donkey in the front lawn IMO and not tell him anything as nothing is all I have gotten as answers from him about this relationship. P.S. I would not really hump a donkey... anyway the relationship has lasted 9 years because I have allowed it to without change (due to crying begging pleading showing up on my doorstep unannounced) and he cant understand why the "SUDDEN" change i guess 10years would have been less sudden. lol. You can not cheat on a MM regardless if he says he is sleeping with his W he is in a committed relationship with someone else. He has obligations to another woman (and possibly children) that he does not have to you, yet he wants you to be AS OBLIGATED to him as his W and ALERT him if you are going to see someone else... Lets make sure you are on the up and up so his feelings dont get hurt... While in the mean time he goes home and plays house... ask the W of any MM that was caught having an A and I bet OVEWHELMINGLY it was not nearly as bad at home as mine or your MM has made it out to be...

[White Flower]

thank you all for your supportive replies.... I need to know that I am not crazy...(they like to make you think that in order to maintain control).... I am definitely tired of sharing him...

He says that because I knew he was married he is not lying and deceiving me so it is not the same.... What the hell....

You knew what you signed up for. That was the past. Your ideas about that club have changed as you have grown. Time to look for a different club, that's all.

 

It was OK for you at the time. It's not OK for you anymore. Let him sign up for YOUR club. I can't wait to see the look on his face when you tell him that!