dyermaker Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Just from reading threads here, I understand that when a man looks at porn, it upsets the woman. I'm sure a few of you are going to say you don't mind, but for the rest of you, I'm going to attempt to defend it, or at least give a picture of how I understand it. Let's examine the classic one-night stand, in which two people have sex, and depart the next day, with no words spoken. There is certainly sexuality present, but no intimacy, correct? It is in this element of relationships that men and women generally diverge. A man will look for sexuality as long as he can, and a woman longs for intimacy. When a man puts his one-night stand days behind him, he too is committing to intimacy. But what most women don't seem to understand, is that intimacy is a lot of work, at least for a man. It means communication, as well as a sensitivity to the needs of a partner. Sexuality, however, just needs a little bit of friction. I agree that a man who only wants to please himself, and not his partner, isn't ready for an intimate relationship. However, why is it that a man that does enjoy intimacy, but decides to pleasure himself once and a while, when he doesn't feel like working at intimacy, is painted as a bad guy? There are a lot of female partners who make it their crusade to stamp out this problem. "Honey, this bothers me, so stop." However, the flaw in that logic is, it's not a problem. It only becomes a problem when the woman lets it hurt her. If she thinks that a man looks at porn because she's not good enough, she's crazy. If that were the case, why would he be with you at all? Porn is cheaper, and less work. Talking to him about it, going into counseling, shutting him out--NONE OF THESE THINGS HELP. If you confront him about it, and "make" him stop, you're only hurting the relationship. Because, he will instead do it when you're not looking. That's when it becomes a problem, when people are sneaking around. First, if he's obsessive over pornography, or spending tons of money on it, that's not okay. Nor is not wanting sex from you anymore. However, if your man pleases you, and makes you feel valued, why do you have to be bothered with being jealous of the women in pornography? He should be respectful, and not rub it in your face, compare you to the porn people, or do it around you or anything. Beyond that, if you're obsessing over it, it's your trip. You are going to drive him to secrecy if you push on this issue. I love communication, but this is one thing where communication isn't going to help, because women have such a skewed perception of what role porn plays in male sexuality. [color=white]if he says he doesn't, he's lying[/color] Link to post Share on other sites
bark Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Good post, man. For most of us average joes, occasionally watching porn is the male equivalent of shopping for shoes--only much more stimulating. Although we don't care about our woman's shopping bouts, many women care deeply about our porn riffs. It's all about control... Apart from the addiction example, female opposition to porn, whether couched in terms of religion, intimacy or equality, is usually about power in a relationship. Women want to control what we do down to the deepest level of sexual expression. It's about maintaining her monopoly over sexual expression. Tied into porn is male self-pleasure. Porn is a gateway to masturbatory delights, where your female partner is temporarily rendered superfluous. I believe the fear of sexual rejection, and the concomitant loss of control in the relationship, is what drives female efforts to stop even occasional porn consumption. Again, the language or rationale varies with the belief system of the woman, but, in nonaddictive situations, the goal is the same: stop the porn, prevent the man from pleasuring himself and maintain the female monopoly over sexual expression. She doesn't want to lose her market share. Link to post Share on other sites
cindy0039 Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Originally posted by bark Women want to control what we do down to the deepest level of sexual expression. It's about maintaining her monopoly over sexual expression. Hey, don't even begin to speak for all of "us." And for the record, I have no objection to my husband ocassionally looking at porn, as long as it doesn't interfere with our sexual relationship or intimacy. But I don't think all women who oppose porn are trying to control their man. That's just much too general of a statement. Link to post Share on other sites
bark Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 You're right, Cindy. Many women are like you, fortunately. I was referring to a possible reason for porn phobia by the type of woman described in the thread starting post. That was my frame of reference. As for being too broad, the beginning premises of most threads are usually too broad-- especially gender threads like this one. I was just riffing... Happy holidays to you and your loved ones. Link to post Share on other sites
Caddy Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 If you can look at it together, that's just groovy. If he's sneaking behind your back, then it depends on how secure his mate is whether it's going to threaten the relationship or not. I myself don't really get too turned on by porn. I think it's kinda funny. But if I had to tell/ask my partner to stop looking at it all the time, then maybe we shouldn't be together anyway. Give me some pictures of a hot naked guy anytime! Link to post Share on other sites
bark Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 So right, Caddy. Porn is best consumed together as a type of foreplay. At best, porn is a means to an end--satisfying lovemaking, and should not be an end in itself. But that sometimes happens, especially when the wife is away. Link to post Share on other sites
Caddy Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 What will be, will be right? I know I can't stop anyone from looking at porn if they really want to. So I'm ok with it. Does that mean I want to watch/look at porn with someone now? Well I'm not in that kind of relationship. But I'll definetly let you know when I am!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Author dyermaker Posted December 23, 2003 Author Share Posted December 23, 2003 I wasn't saying that the reason women object to control is that it's a control issue. I am however saying, in general, that it's their trip, and not something to worry about. Edit: I don't know if anyone's noticed, but occaisonally I hide little white messages at the bottom of my posts Link to post Share on other sites
jenny Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 eveytime i see this thread reappear, i just feel very very sorry for the man involved and wonder how he tolerates such gross intrusions of privacy. [color=white]dude, i had noticed, but now it's not fun[/color] Link to post Share on other sites
Author dyermaker Posted December 23, 2003 Author Share Posted December 23, 2003 Aww, they weren't fun unless someone noticed. [color=white]i won't stop though[/color] Link to post Share on other sites
bark Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 i just feel very very sorry for the man involved and wonder how he tolerates such gross intrusions of privacy. You're privacy concerns, jenny, especially in a marriage are not shared by many. Very few oppositional wives are sensitive to the privacy interests of their porn consuming spouses. This obliviousnesses probably flows from the marriage state--with its diminished expectations of privacy--and the "bad" acts being performed: Marriage as a prison colony, spouse as a warden. Women opposed to porn will trample the privacy rights of their spouses for higher, ethical reasons. Virtue is used as a license to invade, oppress, humiliate and control. Porn is the new battleground in the ongoing battle between the sexes. Link to post Share on other sites
Author dyermaker Posted December 23, 2003 Author Share Posted December 23, 2003 Porn is the new battleground in the ongoing battle between the sexes. It makes you wonder why things like that have to be a batlleground? [color=white]because the women make it a battleground, dammit [/color] Link to post Share on other sites
mjk Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Scorn Porn, It Grows Like Corn, Leaves One Forelorn, And Some Hearts Torn. Okay, enough poetry! A couple of the relationships that I've been in could have led me to check out some porn occasionally. Why? Well here's a scenario, * All day long my girl is at work lookin' great, comes home, immediately changes, removes any make-up, and throws on the old sweat-pants. I'm thinkin' "Man, she sure looked great today" in my head *. When you are first dating you are always on your best, manners, looks etc. When you get to the "I'm comfortable stage" a lot of that falls by the way-side. Attraction levels drop, and people don't do what it takes to keep the "mystery" alive, or the passion. It sometimes becomes all business. I know that part because it happened to me. You need romance, passion, and desire to keep your relationship on track. Maybe the porn escape is kinda what Dyermaker is talking about. Just Sex...with yourself. In the first paragraph don't get me wrong.I'm not sexist at all. Its the same with a guy. He used to be fit and work-out, now there's a beer belly, and a football game on TV. Neither person should have to "go out of their way" just because the Signif other wants excitement, but break the routine a little and see what happens! Link to post Share on other sites
Author dyermaker Posted December 23, 2003 Author Share Posted December 23, 2003 Yeah, seriously, cool it on the poetry [color=white]It grows like corn, and it's just like food For we only indulge because it tastes good It's not the trashy women for whom we're pining It's an escape from her, and all her whining.[/color] Link to post Share on other sites
jenny Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 i think the knee jerk pathologizing about porn is dangerous too. i agree that if money is being spent, or relationship sex is not happening, that's a problem. but i cannot believe how many people hysterically jump to "porn addiction" diagnosis with very little evidence. it's like they are desperate for some way to dramatize the issue and oblige sympathy. though admittedly armchair analysis is an issue in general with me, i hate seeing terms like addiction misused for such controlling motives. this is something for an accredited, legitimate, and educated professional to decide. [color=white]damn it. i had a limerick but i could not rhyme "histrionic defamation" with anything[/color] Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 I happened to hear Dr. Phil on the subject. It is his take that women who get in a lather about men watching porn are selfish and controlling! Don't bite MY head off - it's his opinion. Link to post Share on other sites
bark Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Yikes! Dr. Phil and I agree on something!!! Who would have thunk it. Link to post Share on other sites
cindy0039 Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Originally posted by dyermaker I wasn't saying that the reason women object to control is that it's a control issue. I am however saying, in general, that it's their trip, and not something to worry about. Edit: I don't know if anyone's noticed, but occaisonally I hide little white messages at the bottom of my posts I agree. Love the hat Dyer. And they're no longer subliminal messages once you point them out. (I had been noticing them too. Aren't you proud of me?) I also noticed your typo in this post...totally out of character for you. Link to post Share on other sites
cdn Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 I don't know if anyone's noticed, but occaisonally I hide little white messages at the bottom of my posts I did notice, but only after I realized that it wasn't just my eyes going. As to your post... I just got back from the gym and need coffee before I can even consider this issue inteligently. Link to post Share on other sites
cdn Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 As to your post... I just got back from the gym and need coffee before I can even consider this issue inteligently. Or type, apparently. intelligently Link to post Share on other sites
cindy0039 Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Originally posted by bark Happy holidays to you and your loved ones. Same to you! Link to post Share on other sites
cdn Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Ok, my brain has cleared some. I think it's too facile to say that women who don't like their men looking at porn have control issues. For some women, this may be the case. But I think there are other components. One is that for some people, porn is simply immoral. They see it as degrading to women, something that turns women into objects. And, in fact, if I am reading correctly, that IS exactly why men enjoy looking at it -- the women are not real, they are just fantasy pictures. So that's one possible reason for a woman not liking porn. Another is that some men actually do compare their gf's to other women. I have an aunt whose husband is always commenting on the physiques of other women and, on occasion, compares my aunt to these women (unfavorably). Although she is a beautiful woman with an attractive body, she feels inadequate because her husband has told her he would prefer it if her breasts were larger, etc. I think that for women whose men make these sorts of comments, and even slightly less direct ones, it is not easy to see porn as just a harmless hobby. Certainly I wonder how many men would feel the same level of nonchalance they want their women to espouse were the woman to be making comparisons of their penises against those of naked men they had viewed on tv (or wherever). So that's another possible reason for a woman not liking her man to watch porn. I suspect there are more but I am out of time. Again, I am not saying that control issues aren't a part of the mix for some women, but I don't think that does the issue justice. I think it is far too complex to be so easily summed up. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 I don't know if anyone's noticed, but occaisonally I hide little white messages at the bottom of my posts I vaguely noticed it, but I keep my contrast turned WAY down so have to highlight them to read them - if I see them at all. So that's another possible reason for a woman not liking her man to watch porn. The reasons you mention are the sorts of things one hopes the couple would have discovered about each other prior to marrying. To have one partner who believes porn is 'immoral' and the other who does not seems to indicate that they didn't do a whole lot of talking about values before they decided to commit their lives to each other. Link to post Share on other sites
bark Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 To have one partner who believes porn is 'immoral' and the other who does not seems to indicate that they didn't do a whole lot of talking about values before they decided to commit their lives to each other. Great point, moimeme. My control theory was not meant to be an all encompassing reason for spousal opposition to occasional, non-dysfunctional porn consumption. It just seemed logical to me as one among a few. I wasn't, fortunately, speaking from experience. As for comparisons with porn performers, to live is to compare and be compared. One just has to be comfortable enough to tolerate an occasional unfavorable comparison and tactful enough not to express any unfavorable comparisons. Link to post Share on other sites
cdn Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 My control theory was not meant to be an all encompassing reason for spousal opposition to occasional, non-dysfunctional porn consumption. It just seemed logical to me as one among a few. I wasn't, fortunately, speaking from experience. Just to clarify: I didn't think you were offering up an all-encompassing explanation. I was just pointing out other reasons that could exist. Like you, I am fortunate not to have had any real life issues in this area. I also agree that partners should have a pretty good idea of where they stand on issues not just of morality, but of children, family, outside friendships, religion, etc., etc., before getting married or becoming committed. Sadly, that happens less often than it should. And a forum like this one, by its very nature, tends to attract exactly those folks who did not completely think or talk through all the issues before committing and are now here, wondering what's normal or how to cope with differences that have come to light. As for comparisons with porn performers, to live is to compare and be compared. One just has to be comfortable enough to tolerate an occasional unfavorable comparison and tactful enough not to express any unfavorable comparisons. To live is to compare and be compared but to love is to accept and cherish. :-) Link to post Share on other sites
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