disappointed in all these MM.

[pureinheart]

If your a woman and you don't know how to get along with other women... I think there is a deeper issue.

 

I'm sorry, but as has already been stated in this thread, men are not typically friends with women for altruistic reasons.

 

Did I say I did not know how to get alone with other women? I get along with with women that are not psycho and and do not operate in jealously...that is very hard to find with a lot of woment these days.

 

Because a particular opinion "is stated", does this make it true? Not all men think with the lower half of their bodies, there are men with class out there and respect, I am sorry that you have not met any of those men yet....it is a very good experience.

[Trimmer]

Trimmer....I know what you are getting at....why should it matter the gender that she chooses to talk to. Sometimes daughters can be more open and get better answers from their fathers....so should this not be due to gender....could the daughter be subconsciencely coming on to her father....NOT....

That's such a completely inappropriate analogy - I don't even know how to reply. A relationship between a daughter and a father is not IN ANY WAY analogous to platonic or romantic relationships between peers, I don't think there's anything in that analogy that applies here, except that I feel like I need to go take a bleach shower now that you associated a father/daughter relationship with this, even if to draw a distinction...

 

And as far as whether it matters what gender you're talking to, of course it matters. I'm not - for an instant - excusing the predatory behavior of the jerks that are making suggestive advances on her while she's separated, whether they are married or not. But I am surprised that anyone is acting shocked that such jerks are out there.

 

If you need any more evidence whether it matters what gender you choose for various peer interactions, look no further than the OP's experience she's relating here.

 

And as to the "don't get along with women" thing, (I'm not claiming this to be true of the OP, as she hasn't responded to this comment yet - I intended to present it as food for thought and discussion, not as my mighty judgement laid upon the OP...), and your denial that it's possible for someone to "give off a vibe," can't you see this very scenario: a woman does not/can not establish emotionally supportive relationships with other women, so to get those needs met she turns to men, hoping they can be "friends" that will substitute for what would normally be women friends. So in order to get those needs met, she ends up being emotionally open and sharing with her "friends." (In the OP's words: "...where things are so difficult i would love to reach out to a friend to talk to...") She's not talking about hoisting a beer with a group or going for a run, she's talking about leaning on someone to help work out emotionally difficult and intimate issues, which implies an exchange of trust, and inherently a level of emotional intimacy. Jeez, don't you see where this is going? What does this trigger in a guy? How do men interpret emotional openness, trust, and intimacy?

 

My point is that MAYBE (and again, I'm not judging her, I'm brainstorming ideas as to why she might run into this problem on an apparently regular basis...) it's possible that the kinds of interactions she initiates with men - which are substitutes for the kinds of close, emotional, trusting, interactions that women apparently do with each other quite naturally - may be sending different signals to a man than it would to a woman, or perhaps more precisely put: offering emotional intimacy and trust to a "friend" comes easily and obviously to a woman, but on the "friend's" side, it might be received and interpreted differently by a woman than it is by a man.

 

Again, I want to be very clear: the OP has not checked in on this line of the discussion, and it's an interesting one, but I recognize that my thoughts - as they might apply to the OP's situation - are based completely on speculation until she comments. Food for thought, not a judgement.

 

Did I say I did not know how to get alone with other women?

My interpretation of that comment was that the phrase "if you don't know how to get along..." was constructed generically to apply to our discussion of the OP's situation, as this thread is about her. My comments in this post should be interpreted in the same context.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Trimmer

[Untouchable_Fire]

Did I say I did not know how to get alone with other women? I get along with with women that are not psycho and and do not operate in jealously...that is very hard to find with a lot of woment these days.

Because a particular opinion "is stated", does this make it true? Not all men think with the lower half of their bodies, there are men with class out there and respect, I am sorry that you have not met any of those men yet....it is a very good experience.

 

That is simply an excuse to rationalize your need for male friends. It's not that hard to find women who are not crazy or crazy jealous. How bad do you need male attention?

 

Don't be naive. I am a man, and I am as classy and respectful as you will ever find IRL. This isn't about character traits. It's about testosterone and biology.

 

I cannot have a deep meaningful and intimate friendship with an attractive woman without developing feelings. Very, Very, Very few men can.

[OWoman]

That is simply an excuse to rationalize your need for male friends. It's not that hard to find women who are not crazy or crazy jealous. How bad do you need male attention?

 

Don't be naive. I am a man, and I am as classy and respectful as you will ever find IRL. This isn't about character traits. It's about testosterone and biology.

 

I cannot have a deep meaningful and intimate friendship with an attractive woman without developing feelings. Very, Very, Very few men can.

 

I've always had more, and closer, male friends than female. I've had no problem with letting them know that I'd filed them as friends, not as lovers. They may not have liked that, but they respected it.

[silktricks]

So I continue with my stand that the problem is not with the OW...

:lmao::lmao:

 

Ever heard the phrase "it takes two to tango?" Of COURSE the problem is with the married man, but sweetie, if you don't take him up on it, then where's he gonna go?

 

BTW, I used to have a lot of guys hit on me, both married and single, they learned very quickly they were never going to get off home plate, but it made me wonder what was going on, so I started reading. There have been a LOT of studies done on human "mating" rituals.

 

From what I've read, there seems to be a consensus that a man will never approach a woman who doesn't give "signals" that she's available. I started examining what I was doing, and had discussions with my then counsellor about it. After I modified some of my behavior, the hitting on me stopped like a train wreck. At first it felt really weird, but then it was quite a relief.

 

It's not just the guy....

[OWoman]

From what I've read, there seems to be a consensus that a man will never approach a woman who doesn't give "signals" that she's available.

 

I beg to differ!

 

IME it's when you least want guys to hit on you - because your dance card is quite full enough, thank you - that they descend in their plagues!

[silktricks]

I beg to differ!

 

IME it's when you least want guys to hit on you - because your dance card is quite full enough, thank you - that they descend in their plagues!

 

Of course, that doesn't mean we aren't giving signals.

[Got it]

I think showing happiness or "in love" shows on people and other people are receptive to it. So I think that will attract the opposite sex at some level.

 

The same for when you are down, there are many men and women who have a knight in shining armour complex and are then attracted by someone who is showing signs of needing saving. I think men are most suseptible to this.

 

So more of a little out of column A and a little out of column B.

[Trimmer]

IME it's when you least want guys to hit on you - because your dance card is quite full enough, thank you - that they descend in their plagues!

 

Of course, that doesn't mean we aren't giving signals.

Indeed - in fact, logically it supports the idea that signals are being given off, althougn not necessarily the ones you would consciously prefer...

 

So I continue with my stand that the problem is not with the OW...

Well, whether you consider it a problem with her, there's no question that it's a problem for her, yes? So she can either complain and leave things as they are, or think about what she might be able to change. For example, consider this:

 

I've always had more, and closer, male friends than female. I've had no problem with letting them know that I'd filed them as friends, not as lovers. They may not have liked that, but they respected it.

... which acknowledges that there is a gender difference, and supports the assertion that such a close, emotionally intimate relationship will generally create some kind of dissonance in a man - the fact that "they may not have liked that..." doesn't surprise us, does it? But this poster was able to communicate and enforce boundaries, up front, that enabled such a relationships to proceed on a respectful basis. Seems like there may be something here for the OP to consider. It's a similar setup, "close" male friends who might otherwise want more, but a clearly communicated and enforced boundary that allows it to work.

 

It may depend on the subtleties of what the OP is trying to get from her male friends - I think she needs to be really honest about this. If she's looking for validation as a woman, but then to say "oh, but we're just friends..." again, this is going to create friction and confusion. She may not have considered the nuances in the interaction between what she is expecting from the relationshiop, what she is "telling" them by being open and sharing, and what she is telling them with her words. And then there's the uncontrolled factor that even if she declares a clear boundary, not every man is going to be able to handle that - you'll still have to "pick 'em carefully." Even by stating and enforcing a strong boundary, you won't be able to turn every man into a girlfriend...

Edited January 7, 2010 by Trimmer

[atlnay]

As a guy it's hard to explain, but here it goes.

 

There is a large component of male sexuality that is about power, dominance, and control. Some guys feel this much stronger than others.

 

Do you get it?

 

Crystal clear! You broke it down perfectly. Thank u

[silverplanets]

Reasons I can think of why they hit on you ..

 

a) they believe (not without reason) that you're ok with sleeping with married men

b) they mistake you sitting down with them and opening up to them for help as an expression of interest (it is NOT unknown for a woman to do this)

c) in chatting to you they open up about their own issues .. and that leads to a common bond and a mistaken assumed pact

 

There's probably more ...

[mybrowneyedgirl]

ive sought support from both my men and women friends. same sort of conversations, same feelings involved, same topics.

 

i do welcome advice from my male e friends because sometimes im looking for the male point of view.

 

BUT...i'm only getting hit on by the men, not the women. am i doing something wrong, or what???

[Untouchable_Fire]

I've always had more, and closer, male friends than female. I've had no problem with letting them know that I'd filed them as friends, not as lovers. They may not have liked that, but they respected it.

 

Hope is part of the human condition. You tell them no... and they hope some day you change your mind.

 

If you had said that to me, I have 2 typical responses. Either your not attractive to me, so we can be friends or I have no interest in just being a friend. I don't play games.

[Untouchable_Fire]

ive sought support from both my men and women friends. same sort of conversations, same feelings involved, same topics.

 

i do welcome advice from my male e friends because sometimes im looking for the male point of view.

 

BUT...i'm only getting hit on by the men, not the women. am i doing something wrong, or what???

 

Does getting hit on make you feel good about yourself? Does it make you feel attractive?

[mybrowneyedgirl]

actually it had the opposite effect on me. made me feel worthless and used. like i was only good for one thing. here i am working through things with friends and then i find out that theyre probably only being friends because they have other motives.

[Trimmer]

actually it had the opposite effect on me. made me feel worthless and used. like i was only good for one thing. here i am working through things with friends and then i find out that theyre probably only being friends because they have other motives.

Then let that be a referendum on their worth, not on your own. The fact that you ended up feeling worthless as a result of their advances is still a marker that you are looking to them for validation of some kind - if not romantic/sexual.

 

I know there's been a lot of heat in this thread about women who don't or can't have close friendships with other women, and I don't want to inflame that, but in all of that, I don't know remember whether you said whether you have any women friends to whom you can turn for this kind of "working it out" process... Any potential there?

[mybrowneyedgirl]

I have both men and women friends. I actually spend the majority of my time talking to things with my girlfriends. But men sometimes offer a different point of view on these things...and when this thread started it wasnt about having good friends or what not. it was that recently ive had several MM hit on me...one of which i wasnt even friends with...just a coworker. maybe im more aware of it now.

[Trimmer]

I have both men and women friends. I actually spend the majority of my time talking to things with my girlfriends. But men sometimes offer a different point of view on these things...and when this thread started it wasnt about having good friends or what not. it was that recently ive had several MM hit on me...one of which i wasnt even friends with...just a coworker. maybe im more aware of it now.

OK, I hear you, and I'm glad you have friends on both "sides..." In the end, I'm with you that it's double-sleazy that a MM would hit on you when you are separated and trying to figure things out - both from the "you're trying to figure things out" perspective, and from the "he's married" one...

[mybrowneyedgirl]

i would also like to add that i'm separated from the trying to figure things out perspective. not separated as in waiting my time until my divorce is final. so maybe im just sensitive because i dont view myself as available, because i'm not.

 

just interesting that its MM coming on to me...not the single men who ive known for years...it seems nothing has changed with them...just the married ones.

[bestplayer]

i would also like to add that i'm separated from the trying to figure things out perspective. not separated as in waiting my time until my divorce is final. so maybe im just sensitive because i dont view myself as available, because i'm not.

 

just interesting that its MM coming on to me...not the single men who ive known for years...it seems nothing has changed with them...just the married ones.

 

best of luck mybrowneyedgirl

[White Flower]

Reasons I can think of why they hit on you ..

 

a) they believe (not without reason) that you're ok with sleeping with married men

b) they mistake you sitting down with them and opening up to them for help as an expression of interest (it is NOT unknown for a woman to do this)

c) in chatting to you they open up about their own issues .. and that leads to a common bond and a mistaken assumed pact

 

There's probably more ...

a) they have THEIR OWN REASONS for why they believe you're ok sleeping with them. Some men think ALL women want to have sex just because you smile at them.

b) they're mistake.

c) when you assume you make an ass out of u and me.

[OWoman]

a) they have THEIR OWN REASONS for why they believe you're ok sleeping with them. Some men think ALL women want to have sex just because you smile at them.

 

Yep - isn't it amazing how some men think that just because a woman wants sex, she automatically wants sex WITH THEM. Talk about narcissism!

 

Luckily, though, those men are not the majority, and most men realise they're not god's gift to womenkind....

[Trimmer]

a) they have THEIR OWN REASONS for why they believe you're ok sleeping with them. Some men think ALL women want to have sex just because you smile at them.

b) they're mistake.

c) when you assume you make an ass out of u and me.

 

Yep - isn't it amazing how some men think that just because a woman wants sex, she automatically wants sex WITH THEM. Talk about narcissism!

Good points, and this is why I said not to take their advances as a judgment of your own worth or self-image: it's a referendum on who they are, not on who you are. Let them own their sleaziness; you don't have to carry their burden around by assuming it devalues you.

[Devil Inside]

MBEG...it could just be that you are a very attractive woman and men like to hit on you. If you are attractive and easy to talk to some guys will take a shot. I am not sure why it is the MMs, but maybe you are being hypervigilent to cues from them because of your A. Try paying more attention to the single men and see if they are vibing you too. You may just be a woman that men are naturally drawn to. I would think that is more likely then all MM are scum...seeing as you are the common denominator in all these interactions.

[White Flower]

Timmer and Devil Inside, great posts! (number 73 and 74). You provide a lot of insight and rationale from the male point of view on this thread.

 

OWoman, spot on as usual!

 

MBEG, there will always be men, M or not, who will try to hit on you. If it bothers you, try to ignore them for now. You've been through a lot lately and that experience may be overshadowing your opinions of MM currently. Trust me, I'm right there with you and have to force myself to see clearly when it seems impossible.