Miracles

[Moai]

Unfortunately, the thread that this quote comes from has been closed. I read in another section that perhaps another thread should be started in that event, so that is what I am doing. I returned too late to respond on that thread, so i am going to do so here.

 

From Eve:What explanation could be given for miracle? The fact that it is a miracle is a statement of its unexplainablility, is it not?

 

No. There are many things that we now have explanations for that were not available in the past. And there are phenomena now we struggle to explain, but that doesn't make them miraculous. We do not understand gravity, but that doesn't make gravity magical or miraculous.

 

In this sense, even the story in the link below can only be accepted by this thing called faith and answered prayer. The Doctors dont know why the man recovered. They could not help the man..

 

It can only be accepted by faith and prayer because you declare it so? As much as we understand about the human body, there is a great deal more that we do not know. Given the fact that faith and prayer fails in so many instances shows that the explanation lies elsewhere.

 

A child with leukemia prays for a cure, her parents pray, the doctors use all the weapons at their disposal, and the child dies. This happens by the thousands every day. When it does, it is excused as "God's WIll" or "it was his/her time" or somesuch. But when the child gets better, it is not the medicine or the hard work of the doctors, but the prayer that caused the child to get better. And the number of children who et better is exactly what we expect by test results.

 

Thats it really. There are so may miracles, large and small that occur daily and throughout the ages but if you dont want to know, you dont want to know. You are what you put your energy into.

 

There is no such thing as a "small" miracle. Hence the term "miracle". A miracle, by definition, is an event occurring that is impossible--something that only supernatural intervention can explain.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/feat...an-happen.html ... but yeah, maybe this guy should have asked for the cure for malaria while he was at it though.. silly man!

 

Yep, maybe he should have. Why would go take the time to give this man a "miraculous" cure and ignore the agonized pleas of dying children? And not just a few children, but roughly 2 million children a year?

 

Why do you think dying children is "silly"? Why do you think preventing their suffering and death does not merit even prayer--whether ti works or not?

 

It may be true that you are what you put your energy into. Singling out one (minor) instance of a person recovering that is difficult to explain at the moment validates your entire belief system, yet the millions upon millions of instances of failure does not make a dent.

 

Anyhow, I dont know how you missed all the medically recorded stuff via those Catholics. There are SO many recorded miracles! Where have you been?

 

Just because Catholics claim a certain miracle is "verified" does not make it so. In point of fact, each and every one of these miracles relies on the testimony of witnesses, few of whom have any training in the field in question, and the tales of which grow in the telling.

 

Take St. Francis. It was supposedly miraculous that he could "talk" to animals. We know know this is a common symptom of schizophrenia, and those who experience this are treated medically, not revered as saints.

 

Honestly, if you met someone who claimed he could speak with animals would you immediately assume you were in the presence of a miracle, or someone who was imbalanced?

 

.. but you are a clever man, I am sure that you can find whatever you want. I just dont get why instead of trying to disregard faith, just say that you prefer other explanations..

 

It's true. I prefer explanations that are verifiable and repeatable. And so do you. If you are sic, do you got to a faith healer or witch doctor, or to someone who has studied medicine?

 

There is no inbetween. Those who are interested in looking at aspects of prayer being answered/faith for themselves will do, those who are not interested will not do so beyond idiosyncratic musings... because it is actually impossible for them to do anything else. Those sorts of breakthroughs are often regarded as miracles too.

 

"Miracle" is often used colloquially, but it is equivocating to say that when used in such a way it is the same as saying miracles are real. In sports, a team may come back from way behind and fans call it a "miracle" but nobody really believes that such was a supernatural event.

 

BTW, no animosity here from me. I realise that you are harmless and only speaking about your own interests.

 

I am a big fan of miracles because I am one!

 

Take care,

Eve xx

 

Hmmm. I could same as you, regarding your interests. WHy is it your belief somehow trumps mine, especially since mine is based on evidence and reason, and yours seems to be based on what makes you feel good? Isn't the truth more important than anyone's feelings?

 

And, lest you think that the belief in miracles is harmless, it demonstrably is not. Thousands die every year because they reject modern medicine in favor of prayer and faith. Millions more are taken to the poor house as "faith-healers" prey upon their desperation and fear, only to die anyway.

 

Go to a Benny Hinn Crusade sometime. The truly ill being wheeled in on hospital beds hooked up to all sorts of machines and tubes, many of them children will break your heart. Continue to watch as they are shuffled to the back, with no chance of making it onstage, while others walking with a cane are encouraged to take a wheelchair and are moved right up front.

 

Benny Hinn promised that he would not claim any miracle healings had taken place unless the cure was verified by physicians weeks afterward. He still claims to cure thousands (and even raise the dead!) and yet there has not been ONE verified instance of ANYONE being cured at one of his events.

 

You may say that is because he isn't a True Christian or something like that, but aren't those who show up True Christians? And why isn't their faith enough? Should we all convert to the belief system of the man in the article you quoted?

 

What about all the Muslims who claim miracles and Divine Healing? Or the Hindus who make the same claims?

[Ronni_W]

A miracle, by definition, is an event occurring that is impossible--something that only supernatural intervention can explain.

Maybe it's the definition that is in some or another way incomplete?

 

What if a miracle would be more along the lines of "an event that was thought to have been impossible and that cannot be explained with our (humanity's) current understanding, knowledge or technology"?

 

What if it turns out that both elements -- science AND spirit -- are somehow involved in "miracle" healings and other "miraculous" events? What if the science and technology that will be able to detect/measure "spirit" just isn't known to us yet?

 

So many questions...

But we don't even have a flying car yet, so I'm not holding my breath for definitive answers anytime soon

[quankanne]

hmmm ... my take on "miracles"? Not that they happen, because events happen as they are meant to unfold, but when they happen.

 

most of us are familiar with the Biblical story about Moses parting the sea. One scientific explanation put out there says that there was no miraculous "event" or force that allowed a mere man to forge a path through a body of water without losing a soul, but that more likely, the fleeing Hebrews discovered a way across the water because, thanks to natural occurrances the water levels had dropped and they could safely cross. So them being able to cross the sea wasn't really a miracle, and I get that.

 

however, given the era these folks lived in – and the fact they were not privy to scientific knowledge or were able to predict this event of suppressed sea levels or even figure out travel plans for the best weather conditions/etc – the "miracle" was that they were in the right place, at the right time, with the right conditions in place so that they could safely cross ...

 

regarding "miraculous" cures of health problems: Sometimes it's not merely about healing the body, but healing the soul. From what I understand, priests who have dealt with the crowds going to Lourdes, in France, for miracles, a good deal of the time, said miracle takes place when the people leave with a change of heart about what's going on within their bodies. That they are not so much afraid anymore of what's in store because they understand that they're more than just the sum of body parts.

[NoIDidn't]

I hate to be so dismissive, but who really cares?

 

If someone chooses to label an event in their lives as a miracle, how does it hurt someone who doesn't believe in them?

 

People are prone to disagree. Religious people across religions even moreso.

 

On the "small" miracle thing. Be more flexible in defining it. In the case where if someone had turned their steering wheel just one more degree to the left and started a domino effect of chaos, I'd say that was a "small" miracle. Emphasis on the "small", not the miracle part. This really is just semantics. And not something to ever build an argument on, IMO.

[Eve]

Gosh Moai.. I dont even know how to multi quote.

 

Cant add much more to my initial thoughts and to what else has been said... except perhaps to accentuate that the element of God revealing Himself is the ulimate key here. Yes, even moreso than all the horrible things that go on in this world. In fact, to get stuck on that point is to disable the ability to speak for oneself and ones place within the order of such events. The actual revelation that God is real is THE most terrifying thing that can happen to a person. It is for this precise reason why we now have pieces of Him shown to us within the grooves of what we see as miracles.

 

Following is the measurement of what constitutes a miracle according to the Catholic Church with examples. It looks as though skeptics are present and a medical perspective must be evidenced.

 

http://www.doxa.ws/other/Miracles.html

 

I added this link because at about one minute in there are pictures of those who are incorruptible even in death .. this interests me greatly. Also it speaks of accounts of great masses who are party to miracles.

 

http://vodpod.com/watch/2499288-catholic-miracles-unexplained-by-science

 

The rest unfolds and the person becomes the evidence of faith/miracles.. But if there is no room within a persons dialogue for belief then it is impossible for any of this to makes sense. This is my main and really only point. Faith is the pathway but we are not forced to walk it, you have to want it.

 

I do also believe in interfaith miracles and miracles that occur to those who are unbelivers... story of my life..

 

Take care,

Eve xx

[quankanne]

St. Augustine: "Miracles are not contrary to nature, but only contrary to what we know about nature."

[Moai]

Gosh Moai.. I dont even know how to multi quote.

 

It's easy. You just add html tags where you want to quote, at the beginning and the end. You use "["quote"]" at the beginning and "[/quote"]" at the end--without the quotation marks.

 

Cant add much more to my initial thoughts and to what else has been said... except perhaps to accentuate that the element of God revealing Himself is the ulimate key here. Yes, even moreso than all the horrible things that go on in this world.

 

Which begs the question. First, you must believe in god for this "evidence" to be considered. This is quite obvious, as Christians have miracles no accepted by Muslims, and vice versa.

 

In fact, to get stuck on that point is to disable the ability to speak for oneself and ones place within the order of such events. The actual revelation that God is real is THE most terrifying thing that can happen to a person. It is for this precise reason why we now have pieces of Him shown to us within the grooves of what we see as miracles.

 

Where do you get the idea that knowing god is real is terrifying? Roughly 86% of the world's population believe in a god of some sort, and learned about said god from a very young age. Terror has nothing to do with it. I think that most people are more terrified by the realization of the opposite, which is why they hold on to non-evidence and anecdotes so desperately.

 

Following is the measurement of what constitutes a miracle according to the Catholic Church with examples. It looks as though skeptics are present and a medical perspective must be evidenced.

 

http://www.doxa.ws/other/Miracles.html

 

I checked it out, and the logical fallacies contained in just the statement of what constitutes a miracle are laughable. Moreover, he uses a "case" where a man's lungs grew back (!) as evidence, but then whines that because this happened in 1916 and there is no record of it in a scientific journal "atheists' don't accept it. The very definition of credulity.

 

Notice how miracles are more incredible the further the example is in the past. <rhetorical>Wonder why that is.</rhetorical>

 

I added this link because at about one minute in there are pictures of those who are incorruptible even in death .. this interests me greatly. Also it speaks of accounts of great masses who are party to miracles.

 

http://vodpod.com/watch/2499288-catholic-miracles-unexplained-by-science

 

The number of people who believe something is not indicative of its truth. Notice in the video example where said "miracle" occurred and how it was documented. It speaks for itself.

 

Thousands of people recently gathered around a garage door in Boston because the Virgin Mary could be seen on it. People pay $25,000" for a cheese sandwich that has the face of Jesus. It seems that people would rather believe in these "miracles" than read a book about how the brain and vision work.

 

Not only that, if Our Lady of Fatima made so many famous predictions that are concrete evidence of miracles and her miraculous nature, why do other believers doubt it? In fact, he asserts that your entire religion is false:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/hoax_of_our_lady_of_fatima.htm

 

So, not only does this guy believe in miracles and God and Jesus too, he rejects your miraculous evidence. How can that be, since you are both praying to the same Holy Spirit?

 

One miracle I would accept would be all Christian sects to suddenly agree and mere into one.

 

The rest unfolds and the person becomes the evidence of faith/miracles.. But if there is no room within a persons dialogue for belief then it is impossible for any of this to makes sense. This is my main and really only point. Faith is the pathway but we are not forced to walk it, you have to want it.

 

True. Magic doesn't work unless you believe in magic. And believe it or not, it all makes perfect sense and is quite possible to explain. Humans can be very irrational and credulous, especially when you WANT something to be true instead of looking for evidence of WHAT is true.

 

I do also believe in interfaith miracles and miracles that occur to those who are unbelivers... story of my life..

 

Take care,

Eve xx

 

WHy would interfaith miracles exist? Wouldn't that mean that god is leading people away from His True Church?

[quankanne]

Moreover, he uses a "case" where a man's lungs grew back (!) as evidence,

 

funny you should mention that ... my coworker's husband, who is a deacon at the cathedral here, had gotten really sick a couple of winter's ago, and was diagnosed with pneumonia. Story got out in the parish that he lost his lung, and one sweet, very devout parishioner told him to hang in there, that her nephew learned to live successfully with only HALF a lung. Then lo! Deacon's lung grew back! Miracle of miracles! :D:D

 

we laugh about it still, but it's easy to see how something completely loses factuality the more often it's told, and I'm guessing some of these so-called miracles are precisely that: Misunderstandings about what's going on.

 

yet that doesn't mean there's not room for such things as miracles, I guess it's just in how you perceive things. I'm a skeptic when it comes to televangelists "healing" in the name of God, because I'm pretty sure it's all about glorifying self than it is about glorifying God, yet I've got to admit that I'm simply bowled over by the simplest of all things: That we are somehow perfectly formed to exist on the level we do. I don't think about what the mitochondria or hormones or even blood does in my body, but I am in awe that somehow, it's set up to work perfectly (and independently of me concentrating on it). Or the whole thing about conception. I know egg + sperm = baby, but as someone who has never gotten pregnant (and I had many different opportunities inside and outside of marriage), it's nothing short of a "miracle" that something like that can even take place because of so many variables involved.

 

for me, it all boils down to how you perceive things.

[Eve]

 

True. Magic doesn't work unless you believe in magic. And believe it or not, it all makes perfect sense and is quite possible to explain. Humans can be very irrational and credulous, especially when you WANT something to be true instead of looking for evidence of WHAT is true.

 

 

There is a different level to sight and a different walk to what you speak off. But it is ample to summarise that it is not possible to get past my proposal that there needs to be faith or a something-else-ness there to be evident in order to believe in miracles. There are many testimonies of faith and miracles and much insight can be gained from them but once again there is no test available to name what these occurrances are. Yeah, it is probably easy to disregard the examples I gave.. but I tried.

 

Life isnt a written assignment or a tick list Moai. By virtue of the fact that we dont walk around systematically assessing everything within elaborate forms of scientism, well, it is the same with faith. I mean, when was the last time you used science as a way to actually live your life? What I am saying is that even in explaining cognition, we dont know how the mind operates. All is reflection and faith matches the way the mind works in its natural moment by moment state more than ... well .. actually, what precisely are you proposing is there then?

 

Aloneness?

 

Really, you are saying that the 86% of people who believe in God are all really alone and misguided? Thats so sad! I think that everyone has the right to express what they have seen and experienced, regardless of conflicts of different faiths! Why not say that you are alone? Why must you say others are alone before stating that you think that you are alone? Anyhow, I shouldnt get so personal because it can be taken the wrong way and that is not my intention...

 

.. but nope, I am not alone anymore. Many of us arent and the power of faith is credited as being the reason. For some this includes the working and/or witnessing of miracles.

 

Take care,

Exe xx

[disgracian]

funny you should mention that ... my coworker's husband, who is a deacon at the cathedral here, had gotten really sick a couple of winter's ago, and was diagnosed with pneumonia. Story got out in the parish that he lost his lung, and one sweet, very devout parishioner told him to hang in there, that her nephew learned to live successfully with only HALF a lung. Then lo! Deacon's lung grew back! Miracle of miracles! :D:D

Any medical evidence (chest x-rays or anything) to back that up? I don't mean to ask can you post anything, because I really don't expect you to have access to somebody else's medical details, but do they exist? Was there a write-up in a local paper about it? It seems rather newsworthy to have a lung regrow (from a stub, or nothing at all?). Is there anything non-anecdotal at all to suggest that this event ever actually happened?

 

Pardon my cynicism, but this is approximately the 347th such story I've heard along these lines, and not a single one of them had anything to support it. Not even a "LOCAL MAN REGROWS LUNG|LEG|ARM|TORSO|HEAD" in the local rag...

 

Cheers,

D.

[TaraMaiden]

D, Quankanne is saying that this miracle came about due to Chinese whispers....

Rather like a person's ingrowing toenail becoming some weird tropical flesh-eating disease caused by swamp parasites, simply because someone hears someone else, telling someone else that someone else said those little bleeders are painful....

 

Q isn't claiming it's a miracle.

Q's relating how miracles 'come about'. Through exaggeration and vivid imagination.

 

I was just telling my neighbour the same thing...

You know, the one whose head grew back, after the barber got a bit snip-happy with the clippers.....

[quankanne]

oh, he didn't lose his lung (or regrow it), I was just illustrating how facts can devolve into whole other bits of information; we joke about him "growing back" a lung because of that misunderstanding about his pneumonia by some well-meaning, concerned people.

 

that said, I know the Vatican is VERY picky when it comes to accepting "proof" of miracles as it considers causes for canonization. And the whole Marian apparition thing is also very carefully looked over because they have at their hands the means to dispel "evidence" of miracles, including use of scientific fact.

[disgracian]

Sorry quank, sometimes it's so hard to tell.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Moai]

The comfort of an imaginary friend is small at best, and unfortunately the "friend" that believers have leads them to do some very inhumane things.

 

Consider that Fundamentalist Muslims are forbidden ti listen to recorded music. For starters. There are far more horrific things, to be sure, but consider that: One of the great pleasures provided by technology and the immense beauty of the music are denied people, because their imaginary friend doesn't like it. What's more, their imaginary friend has commanded them to not let anyone else listen, either.

 

They have witnessed miracles that lead them to believe that the deity in question is real, and that his will matters.

 

I agree that 86% of people believing a falsehood is indeed sad. Beyond that, the Universe never made any promises regarding feeling alone or significance or whatever. One of the things that rational people do is face things as they are, not the way they want them to be.

 

That said, for all your joy you find in your belief, do not assume that non-beleif is joyless or bleak--far from it. You do not feel sorrow because you don't believe in elves, do you? Are you sorry that people no longer worship Thor--yourself included? Does the Oracle at Delphi weep, because none come to visit?

 

The fact that the Universe is indifferent to my life and eventual death does not invoke feelings of loss, dread, or fear. In fact, is is beautiful, for I know that my life is my own, the meaning of my life is determined by me, and every sunset, sunrise, and laugh shared with friends is incalculably precious.

[TaraMaiden]

if you want 'miracles', let's just look at what an extraordinary phenomenon the human body is:

So many different organs and processes, all working in harmony together, basically keeping us alive: Voluntary AND 'involuntary' muscles:

 

The process of walking is just a person stopping themselves from falling over. Throwing themselves forward off balance, and putting the other leg forward, smoothly to create a 'step'...that's actually just a mechanism from preventing your nose smacking the sidewalk....

Your nervous system can actually increase your pain threshold, through release of adrenalin and endorphins... if you put your hand on a radiator, you can recoil, because the damn thing's warm... pick up a cup by its rim, and discover it's hotter...your system can actually up your threshold until (more often than not) you can put the cup back down safely (and blow your fingers...curse a little....

And we've all heard of incidents when people in critical situations had no idea they were injured until the crisis had passed....

 

And the female releases a substance in her uterus to prevent the menstrual blood from clotting...on purpose!

heck, how incredible is that - ?

our whole physical system, from the skeleton to the skin, is just an incredible piece of machinery...

And we forget it, and take it for granted, and abuse it, and subject it to extraordinary stresses, every single day....

 

The human body?

It's brilliant!

[pureinheart]

Miracles are real and ever present....what a sad existance to not believe in them when they happen continuously.....

[Ariadne]

It can only be accepted by faith and prayer because you declare it so?

There is no such thing as a "small" miracle. Hence the term "miracle".

 

If you are so concerned about these mysteries that you keep arguing about.

 

Why don´t you believe already?

[disgracian]

Miracles are real and ever present....what a sad existance to not believe in them when they happen continuously.....

No they don't.

 

Cheers,

D.

[theBrokenMuse]

Miracles are real and ever present....what a sad existance to not believe in them when they happen continuously.....

Well sure they do if you want to include everything that's less statistically likely to occur as a miracle however, they aren't exactly up to par with the miracles discussed in religious writings such as Mohammad riding on a winged horse to the heavens, the parting the reed sea and such.

[redtail]

Miracles are real and ever present....what a sad existance to not believe in them when they happen continuously.....

 

I'm sure you think that this is well intentioned. But the presumption that someone can only be happy if they believe as you do, is very sad indeed.

[Eve]

The comfort of an imaginary friend is small at best, and unfortunately the "friend" that believers have leads them to do some very inhumane things.

 

Consider that Fundamentalist Muslims are forbidden ti listen to recorded music. For starters. There are far more horrific things, to be sure, but consider that: One of the great pleasures provided by technology and the immense beauty of the music are denied people, because their imaginary friend doesn't like it. What's more, their imaginary friend has commanded them to not let anyone else listen, either.

 

They have witnessed miracles that lead them to believe that the deity in question is real, and that his will matters.

 

I agree that 86% of people believing a falsehood is indeed sad. Beyond that, the Universe never made any promises regarding feeling alone or significance or whatever. One of the things that rational people do is face things as they are, not the way they want them to be.

 

That said, for all your joy you find in your belief, do not assume that non-beleif is joyless or bleak--far from it. You do not feel sorrow because you don't believe in elves, do you? Are you sorry that people no longer worship Thor--yourself included? Does the Oracle at Delphi weep, because none come to visit?

 

The fact that the Universe is indifferent to my life and eventual death does not invoke feelings of loss, dread, or fear. In fact, is is beautiful, for I know that my life is my own, the meaning of my life is determined by me, and every sunset, sunrise, and laugh shared with friends is incalculably precious.

 

I dont quite understand how it is possible to level all spiritual belief to that of the same quality of 'imaginary' friend The comparison of either non belief or belief being happier states is also a point that can be counter productive. To me it is more a state of self reflection and adoration than a pointed finger to another person as the emphasis is that 'The kingdom of God is within you'. Still, no man is an island and we do see people living various lives and make whatever judgement we come to, so yes, I get that part. However in substance the points made are too different to equate and can and do exist without any religious notion being attached. Miracles are not so.

 

No, I am talking about something else.

 

Over time I have come to see faith as being something which all people have and it is up to them how they invest it. We all have to have some level of faith in order to live. Currently my thoughts are that faith used as a sustanance is probably focused upon willing things to manifest. I think all manner of good and bad acts can be committed under this banner by believers and unbelievers alike. Faith as a defined substance however is different in my mind. The thought is not to replicate anothers behaviour in order to achieve this state but to draw upon a substance higher than oneself in the absolute positive of a given state/situation. So the emphasis is mainly upon being thankful, using words and patience to see things through, defining others not by their errors but by thier potential, essentially, acts of love. It is here, in this place, where miracles are actuated on levels within and above what we know as natural law.

 

To clarify faith - any of the statements below.

 

faith (fth)

n.

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.

3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.

4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.

5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.

6. A set of principles or beliefs.

 

Idiom:

in faith

Indeed; truly.

 

So, there you go! Makes sense to some, nonsense to others! I suppose in many situations its like that line, 'you had to have been there..' There is more to this life than our bodies and our minds. There is a way to be the ultimate 'you' that is not directed by self or ego.

 

 

Take care,

Eve xx

Edited January 8, 2010 by Eve

[Moai]

If you are so concerned about these mysteries that you keep arguing about.

 

Why don´t you believe already?

 

Because there is no evidence for them.

[Ariadne]

Because there is no evidence for them.

 

You can´t have explanations for everything. Some things are beyond you.

[Rooster_DAR]

Miracles are real and ever present....what a sad existance to not believe in them when they happen continuously.....

 

 

Miracles don't exist in reality, sorry chief!

[Rooster_DAR]

You can´t have explanations for everything. Some things are beyond you.

 

 

This is a true statement, however there is no true evidence showing that miracles are some divine act. Many people believe in ghosts, but there is no evidence to support their claims at this time.

 

Until then, scrutiny and skepticism are the topics of the day.

 

Cheers!