TaraMaiden Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 You can´t have explanations for everything. Some things are beyond you. Like what? Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 rooster/moai, when my husband is able to go about his "husbandly duties," I count it as a miracle each and every time, because the dead truly has come back to life! :laugh: again, it all boils down to what you think comprises a miracle. Some folks need big, flashy proof, some realize them in small, seemingly insignificant stuff. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for others. Link to post Share on other sites
Rooster_DAR Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 rooster/moai, when my husband is able to go about his "husbandly duties," I count it as a miracle each and every time, because the dead truly has come back to life! :laugh: again, it all boils down to what you think comprises a miracle. Some folks need big, flashy proof, some realize them in small, seemingly insignificant stuff. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for others. funny..... I think MOAI is debating the true meaning/definition of a miracle. I think we can all agree we have used the term "Miracle" sometime in our lives, but it's more of a cultural phenomenon and has derived a broader definition. Cheers! Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 (edited) Some say that childbirth is a miracle. In some colloquial way, maybe it is, but in reality there's nothing miraculous about it. It's a chemical reaction, it's observable, minutely understood through hundreds of years of study, and it happens constantly. That doesn't make it any less profound for the new parents, but a miracle it ain't. The only capacity in which miracles exist is in the definition of an unexplainable phenomenon. It must be pointed out, though, that "unexplainable" is in no way a synonym or any kind of launching platform to "goddidit". I think some people here need that reminder. In fact, the very unexplainable nature of miracles logically prohibits any kind of conclusion being reached, other than to try harder to understand them. And, given 100% historical precedent, there will be no god found at the end of that road to discovery. Cheers, D. Edited January 8, 2010 by disgracian Speeling Link to post Share on other sites
Ariadne Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 Like what? Like your body right now doing a million things at once that you have no idea or what is driving it. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Moai Posted January 9, 2010 Author Share Posted January 9, 2010 Like your body right now doing a million things at once that you have no idea or what is driving it. it is true that I am not a medical doctor, that does not imply that there is no such thing as a medical doctor. Moreover, I may not understand how digestion really works but it does not follow that magic is a rational explanation for it, or that digestion cannot be understood. I doubt that you can program in C++ or have extensive knowledge of UNIX-based servers, binary, or can write a printer driver, yet you don't think that when you hit"print" on your computer that something "supernatural", "magical" or "unexplainable" is going on, do you? In point of fact, we do not understand GRAVITY. We do not know what causes it, and we don't understand how it works. Does that mean gravity is "magic"? or a "miracle" that proves the existence of some supernatural being? Of course not. Link to post Share on other sites
Ariadne Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 it is true that I am not a medical doctor, that does not imply that there is no such thing as a medical doctor. Yes, there are medical doctors that try and fix stuff. But is more like God gave you a brand new car and the keys and told you, have fun. And you go vroom vroom with the car and you think you are doing something. Link to post Share on other sites
marlena Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 rooster/moai, when my husband is able to go about his "husbandly duties," I count it as a miracle each and every time, because the dead truly has come back to life! Too funny and a good example of how "miracles are in the eyes of the beholder". In fact, the very unexplainable nature of miracles logically prohibits any kind of conclusion being reached, other than to try harder to understand them. Exactly. Miracles, even in the event that they could be proven, by definition would cease to be miracles once they were. So, whether proven or not, they can not logically exist. The best we can do as D says is to try to understand what APPEAR to be miracles. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Moai Posted January 9, 2010 Author Share Posted January 9, 2010 Yes, there are medical doctors that try and fix stuff. But is more like God gave you a brand new car and the keys and told you, have fun. And you go vroom vroom with the car and you think you are doing something. Um, more like natural processes resulted in a car, but because of superstition and lack of understanding probability said result is attributed to one magical being or group of beings and instead of "vroom vroom-ing" in the car, the cars sits and rots for lack of decent manual and upkeep. Not only that, but other people who treat their car differently are attacked and killed. Some cars interact with other cars differently, and those cars a persecuted, and in some cases murdered and imprisoned. The truth about the development of the car is forbidden to be taught, though there is indisputable evidence that the car resulted from natural processes. Not only that, but these superstitious followers make statements about "car-ness" as if they are facts, though there is no possible way they could know what they are so certain about. They claim to somehow know what happens when the car eventually wears out. And funny if not so sad, there are literally hundreds of thousands such claims about "car-ness", the vast majority of which are mutually exclusive. And why is it assumed that "god" (singular) made the car instead of "gods" plural? If it is plausible and rational to accept one god, why not many? In fact, the idea of many gods has been around longer than the idea of only one. Link to post Share on other sites
Ariadne Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 natural processes resulted in a car the car resulted from natural processes Yes, natural processes that have order and intelligence of their own and that is the mind of God. You can call it whatever you want. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 Like your body right now doing a million things at once that you have no idea or what is driving it. Don't try that one... What your body does may be 'miraculous', but every process is explicable.... Unlike the conventional miracles you were referring to. Try again.... Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 Yes, there are medical doctors that try and fix stuff. But is more like God gave you a brand new car and the keys and told you, have fun. And you go vroom vroom with the car and you think you are doing something. This makes no sense. Cars aren't miracles and you're grasping at straws. Yes, natural processes that have order and intelligence of their own and that is the mind of God. order? yes. Intelligence? Gimme a break... You can call it whatever you want. I call it physics and geology. It certainly has nothing to do with God. It's a natural process.... it's Science, not Religion..... Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 Slight correction: It's nature, not religion. Science is our way of exploring the former. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 (edited) Yes, I meant that we use science to explain it. not religion, to explain it.... Edited January 9, 2010 by TaraMaiden Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 Hmm, actually you were proably right the first time. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
627 Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 (edited) miracles fall under one of the following(in my opinion): 1) things that have a very rare chance of occurence: example healing from cancer. chemotherapy heals cancer, it has some percentage of success(low but still it exists) many miracles I heard of were about people who had cancer, did sessions of chemotherapy and radiation and all that, and when they healed they ran around screaming "it was a miracle, it is because I was praying to saint*insert name here* and he/she cured me" ya right 2) miracles where there was only one witness or 2 witnesses and we believe them because "they said so" good example on this are the miraculous appearences of saints and angels... there is no proof of these things except the word of the person who claims to have seen it and the catholic church announces it a miracle. why? because you can't disprove it. if I run around in a christian society telling people that an angel appeared to me last night, who is going to dare call me a liar? 3) unexplainable things so far claimed to be miracles: and it happened in the past, things that were claimed to be miracles weredisproven by science in later years I have heard of one of these miracles, before world war 2 it is said that one night the sky light up. people thought that was a warning from God that something bad was gonna happen(refering to the world war 2 that came after) in later years it was discovered that every given set of years the sun emits a certain radiation that creates that effect, and it happened later in(I think) Canada year 1990 or so(meh I can't be bothered to check for the details) you want to know what a miracle would be? if an amputee grows an arm or a leg back, that's a miracle. if a person who has the down syndrome wakes up one morning like a regular person, that's a miracle, that is divine intervention. that is something that has 0 chance of happening and yet it happened you know how many times such things occured? they never did Edited January 10, 2010 by 627 Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 you want to know what a miracle would be? if an amputee grows an arm or a leg back, that's a miracle. There is no shortage of hoaxes out there and people (strangely or not so strangely) perfectly willing to blatantly lie for their god and spread this nonsense. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 I think that a thread on miracles, started by a non-christian who patently thinks they're nonsense, on a 'spirituality and Religious beliefs' forum, that is still running - is a miracle in itself...... Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 No they don't. Cheers, D. Yes they do. Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 Well sure they do if you want to include everything that's less statistically likely to occur as a miracle however, they aren't exactly up to par with the miracles discussed in religious writings such as Mohammad riding on a winged horse to the heavens, the parting the reed sea and such. I have miracles occure everyday....big ones and littles ones! Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 I'm sure you think that this is well intentioned. But the presumption that someone can only be happy if they believe as you do, is very sad indeed. Oh quite the contrary, anyone can be happy, no matter what they believe...it's just to me it is a sad existance because miracles are such a big part of my life, and for the most part understand them when they happen...for one not to believe them or understand them is sad imo....jmo though ...and yes well intentioned, thank you for not seeing any malice, as there was none meant ! Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 No they don't. Cheers, D. Yes they do. I have miracles occure everyday....big ones and littles ones! Examples, please? I think if you say that you are witness to such phenomena, we should at least be party to what they are..... Link to post Share on other sites
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