Not coping, after breakup with CP man

January 9, 2010

I got "I'm so scared I'll screw this up!" Um, well... don't screw it up, then? I don't go about my day thinking "I'm so scared I'll rob a bank!", do I?

HA HA HA HA!!!!! Brilliant!

And my book is a memoir, not a novel. I'm going in to meet with my publisher on Monday to approve the final line edits and speak with the marketing staff about my book tour. So crazy!!

Edited January 9, 2010 by sedgwick

January 9, 2010

And my book is a memoir, not a novel. I'm going in to meet with my publisher on Monday to approve the final line edits and speak with the marketing staff about my book tour. So crazy!!

Hey Sedgwick, think about this. Only a most valuable life would be published in a memoir. Obviously you have something grand to contribute to the world!! As for your ex-bf, I bet his worldly contributions don't even come close!!

January 9, 2010

Hey Sedgwick, think about this. Only a most valuable life would be published in a memoir. Obviously you have something grand to contribute to the world!! As for your ex-bf, I bet his worldly contributions don't even come close!!

Ugh...I just found out his band spent the summer opening for Bob Dylan. I'm feeling pretty inferior now that I know that. But I'm trying hard to tell myself that the book is just as good.

Why do we let ourselves feel "less than" the men we love? I mean, I got a pretty prestigious publisher, my dream publisher, and at the time it felt like getting into Harvard or something. But now I'm feeling like it's nothing on playing music with Bob Dylan. And here's the craziest thing of all -- my publisher just published a book by Pete Seeger, the ex's hero. Yet still I feel like my accomplishments pale next to his. What makes women do this?? I know I'm not the only one.

Edited January 9, 2010 by sedgwick

January 9, 2010

Catseye

A suggestion if i may. The day you decided to go no contact, you still had your power. Because he beat you to the punch so you may feel you never really had that power.

But you did.

If he is the last one to reply to you, even if it is bad (especially if it is bad) then you can start NC now. Forget practical issues, let him worry about those in a few months when he realizes you won't.

You will suprise yourself, the day you start, you will feel control and power come back into your life. It will take time but you will smile, laugh and love again.

January 9, 2010

I was out with some friends tonight and I told them that I plan to give him a call, set a boundary and walk away from it all for good. I just can't have someone who effects me in this way in my life or lurking in the back of my mind as having any potential. I know that it's fully up to me to put a stop to it once and for all and to use some thought stopping tecniques to get him out of my head.

Good for you and good luck with it! You are totally right that he can't expect you and your feelings to just be on 'pause' any time he gets scared. You do not exist at his convenience.

I also speculate that once he becomes fully aware that I'm no longer an option for when he's ready that he's really going to become unglued. And then . . . likely . . . I'll be his excuse as to why he never married or settled with someone because he couldn't replace me!! I'm NOT saying this to boost my own ego either. I really think he's trying to keep me on ice for when he's ready . . . which may be never. He's middle aged, never married, and will likely live his life out as a very lonely man but it will be of his own doing.

Oh yeah, I know that. My CP ex told me several times how terrified he was that he'd end up living and dying alone - and if he doesn't get his act together he's going to end up doing exactly that, and have nobody to blame but himself. And I'm sure I'll end up being The One That Got Away in his head, in some sense - I only know of one other girlfriend that he fell close to this hard for, and she broke up with him after a couple of months, and he pined for her for three years. He was always so terrified of messing things up with me... well, now he gets to live with the knowledge that he did.

BUT. . . you are SO right . . . you cannot have a relationship with him solely on his terms because its not fair to you and it will rip your insides out!! And then where will you be!! And I really think that's what they push for, a relationship on their terms with no expectations!!

Yes! My counsellor pointed out that that's exactly what he's doing now, and that's why he acted so weird and panicky when I got angry with him this week.

As for the depression, I still feel bad for him but... had he stayed with me, I would have been one hundred per cent supportive and helped him through it. He made the choice to leave.

My counsellor does think that all the bad stuff that's going on in his life at the moment likely triggered this behaviour in him now even though it's clearly problems he'd just temporarily managed to brush under the carpet, so I don't really know how I feel about that. To start off with I even more upset - "great, we were making it work before, and this didn't have to happen!" And then I thought, "okay, so if he hadn't had a lot of Bad Stuff to deal with recently, maybe all this CP panic would have stayed hidden for a while, maybe it would have been five, six years in the future, maybe we'd have had a kid by then... and then something would have happened to trigger it, because it's not going to go away until he gets help, and I'd have been in this place anyway, except maybe with a baby and a mortgage on top of the heartbreak."

At least I know I always kept my boundaries in place and stuck to them throughout the relationship. He used to tell me that he'd never had a girlfriend so willing to call him on his bull**** before (and that was praise!). I remember one of the only arguments we had before all this bull**** happened was near the beginning of the relationship, and he was crying and saying "I've let you down..." I said "Yes, you have," and he gave me this really surprised look, like he honestly was expecting me to comfort him and say oh no, honey, you haven't, you're fine really! Um, no, I do not think so....

Been there EXACTLY!! Most definately mixed signals and you're NOT going crazy!! During the process of ending it, he once sent me an e-mail 8 short hours after I thought it had ended that was signed off with xxoo. I called him out on it, told him he was confusing and asked him why he did it. He immediately blurts out as though it's an everyday thing, I sign off with ALL my friends that way!!!!!! Muuuuuuuuhahahahahahahahahaha Yes, and I bet if I asked him now, he brings red roses just like he did on his recent visit to all his friends too!!

Bwaha! Yeah, I can imagine that. "Roses? Oh THESE roses? No, I've been giving red roses to everyone this week, didn't you know?"

What do ya think??!! Maybe we should start a mixed message thread olympics and choose someone from LS to declare the winner!!

Yes! I also nominate, from my breakup with this guy:

Me: "Can't we even agree to meet up and talk about things in, I don't know, a month or something?"

Him: "No, because that would still be a connection to you, and I can't deal with a connection to anyone right now! I can't take that responsibility! I KNOW a clean break would be the best thing for both of us."

Me: "So there's honestly no hope for this relationship at all?"

Him: "Oh, I'm sure I'll try to come crawling back to you, but you should tell me to go to hell when I do."

Under the circumstances, can you believe the guy actually brings red roses??????!!!!!!!!! I about fell over when he handed me those. It was awkward at first but in the end . . . through the course of events . . . he effectively sucked me back into him . . . and it's of my own doing because I allowed it.

Well, it's his doing! You expected him to act like the well-balanced adult he was telling you he was. There's nothing wrong with that. (And yeah, red roses... wtf! Did he think that would just make up for everything?)

LOL!!!! I'm SURE he IS reading all your blogs to assure himself that he hasn't lost you. The thing is, he needs to find himself and get a grip or he will lose you.

Yeah! There's nothing about him on my blog since the breakup that he can see (it's all locked and protected)... wonder how he feels about that... ah well, if he wants to know how I'm feeling he can ASK ME like a normal person would.

Having a pretty tough evening again, although I'm coming out of it now I think. God, I miss him. I know he sounds like such a bastard here, and I am still really angry at him about the stuff he pulled around the breakup (and is still pulling now!), but for most of the relationship he was great, we were great together. The way I feel tonight, I know he could turn up on my doorstep saying "Nothing's changed, but let's get back together anyway!" and I'd say yes even though I know that would end up hurting me even more. I have to get tougher than this, I can't risk that happening... I hate missing him this much!

January 9, 2010

And my book is a memoir, not a novel. I'm going in to meet with my publisher on Monday to approve the final line edits and speak with the marketing staff about my book tour. So crazy!!

Awesome! Well done - I can only imagine how much hard work you've put into that! And definitely don't feel like you come second to your ex, in any way. You don't.

January 10, 2010

Ugh...I just found out his band spent the summer opening for Bob Dylan. I'm feeling pretty inferior now that I know that. But I'm trying hard to tell myself that the book is just as good.

Why do we let ourselves feel "less than" the men we love? I mean, I got a pretty prestigious publisher, my dream publisher, and at the time it felt like getting into Harvard or something. But now I'm feeling like it's nothing on playing music with Bob Dylan. And here's the craziest thing of all -- my publisher just published a book by Pete Seeger, the ex's hero. Yet still I feel like my accomplishments pale next to his. What makes women do this?? I know I'm not the only one.

Hey again Sedgwick,

This past fall I met a guy who was staying at the same hotel as me. He used to play in a band that's very well known and in their early days, they opened for Dylan, Van Morrison, and the Stones. He was an interesting person, but I wasn't interested in him in the same way he was interested in me. The fact that he's a well known musician made no difference. What it all boils down to is that it really doesn't matter the level of fame someone has achieved, it's what's inside that really counts. So what if his band is opening for Dylan. Don't put him on a pedestal based on fame. What's really important is how he relates or doesn't relate to you. And from what you've said . . . he's got boat loads of work to do before he can ever engage in a healthy adult romantic relationship, the kind of relationship you're ready for and deserve, and opening for Dylan won't help him at all in this process.

January 10, 2010

As for the depression, I still feel bad for him but... had he stayed with me, I would have been one hundred per cent supportive and helped him through it. He made the choice to leave.

I'm sure you would have stood by him and supported him through his depression. It's his choice AND his loss!!

My counsellor does think that all the bad stuff that's going on in his life at the moment likely triggered this behaviour in him now even though it's clearly problems he'd just temporarily managed to brush under the carpet, so I don't really know how I feel about that. To start off with I even more upset - "great, we were making it work before, and this didn't have to happen!" And then I thought, "okay, so if he hadn't had a lot of Bad Stuff to deal with recently, maybe all this CP panic would have stayed hidden for a while, maybe it would have been five, six years in the future, maybe we'd have had a kid by then... and then something would have happened to trigger it, because it's not going to go away until he gets help, and I'd have been in this place anyway, except maybe with a baby and a mortgage on top of the heartbreak."

I'm not so sure about his life difficulties triggering his CP either. With CP, it's the closeness of the relationship that triggers it regardless of the events outside the relationship so . . . I'm not sure how or if these other things tie in. I suspect it would have happened when you reached a certain level in the relationship regardless of outside events and it sounds like what triggered him was the two of you living together.

At least I know I always kept my boundaries in place and stuck to them throughout the relationship. He used to tell me that he'd never had a girlfriend so willing to call him on his bull**** before (and that was praise!). I remember one of the only arguments we had before all this bull**** happened was near the beginning of the relationship, and he was crying and saying "I've let you down..." I said "Yes, you have," and he gave me this really surprised look, like he honestly was expecting me to comfort him and say oh no, honey, you haven't, you're fine really! Um, no, I do not think so....."

I too kept my boundries in place for the most part in the relationship and I felt good about that, that I called him out on his nonsense and didn't let him walk all over me. And the first resurfacing, I had HUGE boundaries up and walls around me. It's these recent 2 resurfacings where I feel like my boundaries have been violated and I feel foolish for allowing it to happen.

Bwaha! Yeah, I can imagine that. "Roses? Oh THESE roses? No, I've been giving red roses to everyone this week, didn't you know?"

He's SUCH a tool!!! I called and left him a voicemail to call me the night before last and I haven't heard a peep. Usually, he calls immediately upon receiving a message and always explains without being asked why he was unavailable for the call. It's curious, but then again, because I haven't been the one to initiate contact since the breakup and only responded to him initiating contact (with the exception of sending a b-day card when I felt sorry for him), he was probably not expecting me to call and thinking that he could just initiate contact at a time of his comfort. So now, I'm REALLY irritated because it's completely disrespectful to ignore my call!! A friend of mine suggested last night that maybe he just used me over Christmas and maybe she's right?? But then again, she doesn't understand CP behavior and is perceiving things based on what it would mean if a normal person behaved in this way. And he's NOT normal!!

Yes! I also nominate, from my breakup with this guy:
Me: "Can't we even agree to meet up and talk about things in, I don't know, a month or something?"
Him: "No, because that would still be a connection to you, and I can't deal with a connection to anyone right now! I can't take that responsibility! I KNOW a clean break would be the best thing for both of us."
Me: "So there's honestly no hope for this relationship at all?"
Him: "Oh, I'm sure I'll try to come crawling back to you, but you should tell me to go to hell when I do.

AMAZING example and worthy nomination!! I had a similar experience during the breakup and suggested that we get together in person to discuss things. It didn't happen and it all took place over the phone. Anyway, when he resurfaced the first time 5 weeks after the breakup after absolutely NC I asked him, "Why have you come here??!!" He said, "You said you wanted to get together to discuss things." I said, "Yes, but that was 5 weeks ago and BEFORE you broke up with me!!" But, my nomination for mixed messages (my God, there's SO many) is his frantic expression of:

"I can't believe you want to continue because what if it deteriorates?????!!!!"

I remember at the time (I wasn't so wise then) thinking, WTF, does he think he can somehow fossilize and preserve this as it is and for what purpose???!!! Now I know his meaning was to press "pause" and freeze it in time to be continued exactly where it left off at a later date. And as I type this, I'm becoming completely clear that I am dealing with someone who is truly one brick shy of a full load!! WOW!!

Yeah! There's nothing about him on my blog since the breakup that he can see (it's all locked and protected)... wonder how he feels about that... ah well, if he wants to know how I'm feeling he can ASK ME like a normal person would.

Good for you in locking up your blog!! You're right, if he wants to know about you, he can ask like a normal person!!!!

Having a pretty tough evening again, although I'm coming out of it now I think. God, I miss him. I know he sounds like such a bastard here, and I am still really angry at him about the stuff he pulled around the breakup (and is still pulling now!), but for most of the relationship he was great, we were great together. The way I feel tonight, I know he could turn up on my doorstep saying "Nothing's changed, but let's get back together anyway!" and I'd say yes even though I know that would end up hurting me even more. I have to get tougher than this, I can't risk that happening... I hate missing him this much!

Oh man, I've been there with all the emotions the missing him, the yearning, the anger, the hurt, the obssesive thoughts of him. I can tell you that it DOES get easier. The process is not linear day to day, but it is linear over time. I hope for your sake that he doesn't show up on your doorstep too soon because the resurfacing can really mess with the healing process. And think of it this way, if this relationship is to have any hope, you've got to be strong enough to set firm boundaries otherwise it will be unhealthy!! You'll get through this stronger and wiser.

And just so you know that it really DOES get easier with taking time away from it to heal and get stronger, I'm no where near as rattled by this recent resurfacing than I was or would have been earlier in the process. The "pause" button is irreparably damaged and I have a date on Thursday with someone I met through a mutual friend. And . . . as a result of this experience, there's no way I'm again diving into anyone's pond without fully checking out the waters first!! Keep your chin up!!

January 11, 2010

He's SUCH a tool!!! I called and left him a voicemail to call me the night before last and I haven't heard a peep. Usually, he calls immediately upon receiving a message and always explains without being asked why he was unavailable for the call. It's curious, but then again, because I haven't been the one to initiate contact since the breakup and only responded to him initiating contact (with the exception of sending a b-day card when I felt sorry for him), he was probably not expecting me to call and thinking that he could just initiate contact at a time of his comfort. So now, I'm REALLY irritated because it's completely disrespectful to ignore my call!! A friend of mine suggested last night that maybe he just used me over Christmas and maybe she's right?? But then again, she doesn't understand CP behavior and is perceiving things based on what it would mean if a normal person behaved in this way. And he's NOT normal!!

So, I got the call tonight and told him I was surprised that I hadn't heard from him. He was engaged in an athletic activity this weekend and said that he'd been busy with work this week and that's why he hasn't called. Yaaaa riiiiight!!!! Too busy to call . . . NOT . . . Too emotionally overloaded about us to make the call . . . YES!! So, I said I wanted to discuss where we are in this. He said we can discuss it mid-week because he was too tired to talk about it tonight. Give me a break!!!! I said OK, who is calling who. He said, "I don't care." I said, "OK, you call me then and have a good night." I suppose it's a VERY tiring a frightening thing to discuss where you are in something when your mind flip-flops back and forth and you haven't got a clue. Hopefully he will not call when I'm out on my date Thursday night because I really need to answer his call when it rings in order to establish my boundaries and expectations of the relationship.

January 11, 2010

I'm not so sure about his life difficulties triggering his CP either. With CP, it's the closeness of the relationship that triggers it regardless of the events outside the relationship so . . . I'm not sure how or if these other things tie in. I suspect it would have happened when you reached a certain level in the relationship regardless of outside events and it sounds like what triggered him was the two of you living together.

I do wonder what the relationship between this freakout and his depression is... I'm pretty sure it's the same issues (family/childhood stuff) that triggered his depression that have something to do with his CP issues as well. The inside of his head is a very very tangled place, I think! My counsellor says that right now all his problems and stress-causing things, me included, are probably tangled into one big ball of stress-fear-panic in his head right now, and he's going to keep acting bizarrely around me unless and until he detangles that. But yeah, he really needs professional help!

friend of mine suggested last night that maybe he just used me over Christmas and maybe she's right?? But then again, she doesn't understand CP behavior and is perceiving things based on what it would mean if a normal person behaved in this way. And he's NOT normal!!

Ah yes, I have friends trying to interpret this weird CP behaviour in terms of how a normal person would act too! And it just doesn't quite fit, ever... they AREN'T normal in this sense, and they do not act the way other people would. I've had times in my life when I wasn't interested in long-term relationships or the kind of commitment that involved, and I didn't act at all like these men do even then.

But, my nomination for mixed messages (my God, there's SO many) is his frantic expression of:

"I can't believe you want to continue because what if it deteriorates?????!!!!"

That is just... twisted! How is it possible to go through your life thinking that way? "I can't believe you want to go out and enjoy the sunshine because what if it clouds over!"

My absolute best mixed messages moment ever was actually with another man... we had an on/off FWB thing for about a year, and then he told me he loved me. The next day, I texted him to say we should talk about what we wanted to do - and he replied to say we'd have to talk soon, then, because he was selling his house and moving 150 miles away that week! LOL. (Er, I have actually been involved with normal men too, I swear!)

So, I got the call tonight and told him I was surprised that I hadn't heard from him. He was engaged in an athletic activity this weekend and said that he'd been busy with work this week and that's why he hasn't called. Yaaaa riiiiight!!!! Too busy to call . . . NOT . . . Too emotionally overloaded about us to make the call . . . YES!! So, I said I wanted to discuss where we are in this. He said we can discuss it mid-week because he was too tired to talk about it tonight. Give me a break!!!! I said OK, who is calling who. He said, "I don't care." I said, "OK, you call me then and have a good night." I suppose it's a VERY tiring a frightening thing to discuss where you are in something when your mind flip-flops back and forth and you haven't got a clue. Hopefully he will not call when I'm out on my date Thursday night because I really need to answer his call when it rings in order to establish my boundaries and expectations of the relationship.

If he does call on Thursday night, you should totally make sure your voicemail message says you're out on a date at the moment! Good luck with it anyway - here's hoping he can get his act together for that conversation... and I hope Date Guy is awesome!

I'm having a weird day... I still haven't responded to his last email (chatty friendly one sent on Friday), and I'm not sure I'm going to, at least not for a while. I considered sending him a big declaration of how I was done with this and he needed to get out of my life, or at least telling him not to contact me until he could talk like an adult, but then I thought, well, I don't NEED to - I can just go radio silence for now, and see how that works for me.

It feels odd to say this, but I'm actually a lot happier about going quiet on him after he's sent me the stuff recently (kiss and letting me know he'd been reading my old blog stuff about him). I don't quite know why... It feels like I have some of the power back this way.

Meanwhile I've been trying to focus on getting out and doing stuff! Went to a funfair with a friend yesterday (the rides that tip you upside down were EXCELLENT, and I've never dared go on the scary ones before!) And tonight, I'm curled up in bed watching Harper's Island. It's getting me through

Edited January 11, 2010 by Catseye8

January 12, 2010

I do wonder what the relationship between this freakout and his depression is... I'm pretty sure it's the same issues (family/childhood stuff) that triggered his depression that have something to do with his CP issues as well. The inside of his head is a very very tangled place, I think! My counsellor says that right now all his problems and stress-causing things, me included, are probably tangled into one big ball of stress-fear-panic in his head right now, and he's going to keep acting bizarrely around me unless and until he detangles that. But yeah, he really needs professional help!

My guy struggles with depression too but I'm not sure how it connects to his CP. A mind that's a tangled mess is an excellent way to put it!! That's why they speak such nonsense, their mind does not make sense!!

Ah yes, I have friends trying to interpret this weird CP behaviour in terms of how a normal person would act too! And it just doesn't quite fit, ever... they AREN'T normal in this sense, and they do not act the way other people would. I've had times in my life when I wasn't interested in long-term relationships or the kind of commitment that involved, and I didn't act at all like these men do even then.

It's tough when friends just DON'T get it. Yes, they attempt to interpret it logically from a perspective of how normal people behave and you're right, these guys are anything BUT normal.

That is just... twisted! How is it possible to go through your life thinking that way? "I can't believe you want to go out and enjoy the sunshine because what if it clouds over!"

I WISH I had thought of your quote at the time because it would have been the PERFECT response!! It was all just insane!! And he kept on saying, "I know it's great now but 'what if' 6 months down the road, 'what if,' 'what if,' 'what if,' 'what if'" and I tried to reason with him but there is no reasoning with someone who is unreasonable!!

My absolute best mixed messages moment ever was actually with another man... we had an on/off FWB thing for about a year, and then he told me he loved me. The next day, I texted him to say we should talk about what we wanted to do - and he replied to say we'd have to talk soon, then, because he was selling his house and moving 150 miles away that week! LOL. (Er, I have actually been involved with normal men too, I swear!)!"

THAT'S a good one!! I have no doubt that you've been out with normal men too!!

If he does call on Thursday night, you should totally make sure your voicemail message says you're out on a date at the moment! Good luck with it anyway - here's hoping he can get his act together for that conversation... and I hope Date Guy is awesome!!)!"

I think he'd freak if he knew I was out on a date because after all, he's pushed the "pause" button!! LOL! As it stands, he and I have nothing established at the moment so I'm free to do as I choose. But . . . I just don't think being in a casual relationship with him is going to work for me because we were so close and had an established monagamous relationship that was growing. My feelings for him are still there and it's just too difficult emotionally to shift to casual. So . . . he's got to decide whether he wants to take the leap of faith, be "all in" and see where it goes or, he's got to be "all out" and I'm the one that's going to have to keep him there because I know I can't control his resurfacing. What I can control is how I react to his resurfacing. This is SO tough and I need to get a grip!! But who knows, when he calls he could very well be the one to cut the cord and run into hiding again!! Don't these men (or women) understand that when they freak and run it's a rejection and it hurts??!!

Date guy is German and I'm from the states so it should be interesting.

I'm having a weird day... I still haven't responded to his last email (chatty friendly one sent on Friday), and I'm not sure I'm going to, at least not for a while. I considered sending him a big declaration of how I was done with this and he needed to get out of my life, or at least telling him not to contact me until he could talk like an adult, but then I thought, well, I don't NEED to - I can just go radio silence for now, and see how that works for me.

It feels odd to say this, but I'm actually a lot happier about going quiet on him after he's sent me the stuff recently (kiss and letting me know he'd been reading my old blog stuff about him). I don't quite know why... It feels like I have some of the power back this way.!!)

You DO have some power back and you'll gain more power back by pulling away further. I REALLY think that it's in your best interest, and in the best interest of the relationship to go radio silent and not to respond. Use the time to really get yourself centered and strong and only reconnect if he's fully demonstrated that he's evolved enough to be commited to work through his issue no matter what!! You owe this to yourself!! You DON'T want to go back only to have him freak and run again and then have to go through this all over again from square 1!! And . . . you don't want to establish a pattern where he thinks this back and forth behavior is acceptable. Let him sit there with his issues and have time to fully miss you and experience the loss of you. If you respond, he may charm you back in and/or think he has you on ice and he may think that he can take his time. You DON'T want to be on ice for anybody and you DON'T want to risk another freak out!! YOU derserve better than that!! After all, he ended it right??!! So, as far as you're concerned it's finished unless he reconnects in such a way that you have total reassurance that he's resolved or resolving his issues. You don't need to say anything. You can just ignore him. Believe me, he KNOWS where he left it with you and he's trying to chaaaaarm his way back in without having changed. I went through this whole dance during the breakup period naively responding to the signals you're getting now and it was utterly confusing!! If I'd known then what I know now I would have gone into radio silence much sooner.

Meanwhile I've been trying to focus on getting out and doing stuff! Went to a funfair with a friend yesterday (the rides that tip you upside down were EXCELLENT, and I've never dared go on the scary ones before!) And tonight, I'm curled up in bed watching Harper's Island. It's getting me through

Getting out and doing things and living your life is the BEST medicine!! Life moves on with or without these CP guys and the worst thing we can do is to be so wrapped up in their tangled mind that we end up missing out life in the process!! You're doing great!!

January 12, 2010

My guy struggles with depression too but I'm not sure how it connects to his CP. A mind that's a tangled mess is an excellent way to put it!! That's why they speak such nonsense, their mind does not make sense!!

I think the depression's connected to my CP ex's weirdness in some way, because his previous relationship ended around the time depression hit the first time. And that was depression for external life reasons not connected to the relationship, but... I know he ended up treating that girlfriend pretty badly, and I suspect that's not a hundred miles away from what happened with us. She's one of his only exes who still won't speak to him (he's quite friendly with most of the others). OTOH - there were other reasons for breaking off that relationship, and he broke it off much more cleanly and without all this mixed-signals and weird contact stuff he's doing now. So, I still don't know what on earth he thinks he's doing with me!

It's tough when friends just DON'T get it. Yes, they attempt to interpret it logically from a perspective of how normal people behave and you're right, these guys are anything BUT normal.

Oh yeah. I used to get so frustrated when my friends would say things like 'Well, why do you want to be with him if you have to talk him into living with you, when he obviously didn't want to?' It was his idea! He was the one making plans! Argh! And I do honestly think that on one level, the one that's not all 'terror fear panic trapped RUN!', he desperately did want to as well - he wants to be 'normal'. At least he knows he's not, I suppose.

Luckily, his behaviour towards me recently has been so bizarre that my friends have given up trying to interpret him as anything other than messed up!

I think he'd freak if he knew I was out on a date because after all, he's pushed the "pause" button!! LOL! As it stands, he and I have nothing established at the moment so I'm free to do as I choose. But . . . I just don't think being in a casual relationship with him is going to work for me because we were so close and had an established monagamous relationship that was growing. My feelings for him are still there and it's just too difficult emotionally to shift to casual. So . . . he's got to decide whether he wants to take the leap of faith, be "all in" and see where it goes or, he's got to be "all out" and I'm the one that's going to have to keep him there because I know I can't control his resurfacing.

Yeah, I can sympathise with that. I'm not sure what kind of relationship I'd be okay with if mine resurfaced - I really don't think I could do casual, but on the other hand I wouldn't want to let him get too close to me until he'd proved he'd got his act together, either.

Don't these men (or women) understand that when they freak and run it's a rejection and it hurts??!!

You'd think they'd have to, but... I don't know if they're even able to look past themselves enough to get that perspective. Like... mine broke up with me saying that he couldn't handle an adult relationship and knew he'd end up hurting me if he stayed with me and couldn't stand the idea of hurting me - and I honestly think it did tear him up to hurt me - but then, why not just not hurt me? Is it honestly that complicated?

(My counsellor says it's actually pretty positive and honest that he can acknowledge he isn't emotionally whole enough right now to have the kind of relationship he wants, or to give me what I need without letting me down. But, damn. He was doing fine before this! Why not just try harder, rather than cutting and running? Does he honestly believe this is the way to not hurt me?)

You DO have some power back and you'll gain more power back by pulling away further. I REALLY think that it's in your best interest, and in the best interest of the relationship to go radio silent and not to respond. Use the time to really get yourself centered and strong and only reconnect if he's fully demonstrated that he's evolved enough to be commited to work through his issue no matter what!! You owe this to yourself!! You DON'T want to go back only to have him freak and run again and then have to go through this all over again from square 1!! And . . . you don't want to establish a pattern where he thinks this back and forth behavior is acceptable. Let him sit there with his issues and have time to fully miss you and experience the loss of you.

Weird thing... but honestly, before the serious mixed-messages stuff recently, even though everybody was telling me he was trying to keep some connection to me with all the contact and clearly didn't want me out of his life just yet, I couldn't quite believe it. I thought maybe he was just humouring me because he knew I was upset and missed him, or something. It's not until this recent stuff, where he knew I got annoyed with him and started to go OTT with the kisses and reminding me of the good times stuff, that I realised everyone's right - this is not typical breakup behaviour, and he does not want me gone for good.

So it does feel a bit like I'm playing games: "ah, now I KNOW you get something from having me around, I'm going to back away!". But at the same time it feels like I'm refusing to play his game.

It's as if he's decided we're going to play some game of chess. Except this isn't normal chess, this is chess by some bizarre rules he's made up. So I have three choices:

- keep trying to work out what the rules are and apologising to him if I get them wrong;

- yell at him about having the stupid rules in the first place, and demand to play by the actual normal-person rules;

- get up and walk away from the game for a while.

At this point, even yelling at him that he's being unreasonable and that he's hurting me feels like it keeps me stuck in the game, negotiating the rules. If I just disappear... well, he's not expecting that.

Also, I am terrified and feel sick at the thought that he'll end up getting involved in a relationship with someone else - someone he doesn't have to feel guilty and/or vulnerable around, someone who's never seen him freak out and run. And if that happens now, well... it'll still hurt like nothing on earth, but at least I'll have some comfort in knowing I walked away at a time of my choosing, when he was starting to chase me a bit. (That's where the panicky stuff about 'omg, he's walking a different way to work!' I posted earlier in this thread came from. Turns out that's the way to work if he's coming from the counselling place... so that's another possible explanation! Heh, I'll probably never know.)

If you respond, he may charm you back in and/or think he has you on ice and he may think that he can take his time. You DON'T want to be on ice for anybody and you DON'T want to risk another freak out!! YOU derserve better than that!! After all, he ended it right??!! So, as far as you're concerned it's finished unless he reconnects in such a way that you have total reassurance that he's resolved or resolving his issues.

That's one thing that I've been wondering about recently - how would I know that he'd resolved them? I mean, he's obviously very, very good at freaking out quietly by himself in a way that I won't see it coming until everything goes ka-BOOM, and I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend a whole relationship thinking 'when's this going to happen again?'. So if he came back I'd still need some guarantee that wouldn't happen - but I have no idea what that kind of guarantee would look like. 'Promise me' is hardly going to cut it when he can kid himself about it. Something to think about. Hmm.

Getting out and doing things and living your life is the BEST medicine!! Life moves on with or without these CP guys and the worst thing we can do is to be so wrapped up in their tangled mind that we end up missing out life in the process!! You're doing great!!

Thank you! I'm trying... like you said, it WILL get better with time. It still feels like a torpedo hit me, though.

January 13, 2010

I think the depression's connected to my CP ex's weirdness in some way, because his previous relationship ended around the time depression hit the first time. And that was depression for external life reasons not connected to the relationship, but... I know he ended up treating that girlfriend pretty badly, and I suspect that's not a hundred miles away from what happened with us. She's one of his only exes who still won't speak to him (he's quite friendly with most of the others). OTOH - there were other reasons for breaking off that relationship, and he broke it off much more cleanly and without all this mixed-signals and weird contact stuff he's doing now. So, I still don't know what on earth he thinks he's doing with me!

So . . . he's quite friendly with most of his exes . . . it rings a bell! My ex-bf was quite proud that he was able to maintain friendships with some exes, including the one that came a year before me. Their relationship was a short 3 months, and this friends with the exes thing, including the more recent one never used to bother me . . . BUT . . . when I really started to look at things . . . friend zoing may be a way of keeping an ex on ice in case the CP changes their mind.

Oh yeah. I used to get so frustrated when my friends would say things like 'Well, why do you want to be with him if you have to talk him into living with you, when he obviously didn't want to?' It was his idea! He was the one making plans! Argh! And I do honestly think that on one level, the one that's not all 'terror fear panic trapped RUN!', he desperately did want to as well - he wants to be 'normal'. At least he knows he's not, I suppose.

Luckily, his behaviour towards me recently has been so bizarre that my friends have given up trying to interpret him as anything other than messed up!!

I'm glad for you that your friends have gotten a clear picture. I still don't think some of my friends have got it. One of my friends recently said, "Why don't you just get over him. Let him go. He's just playing you and using you. He put his dating profile back up so it's obvious he's dating other women. Why are you hanging on. Just let gooooooooooooo." It was humiliating to me and I responded:

"LOOK!! I still have feelings for him and only reconnected with him a couple of weeks ago and I did NOT seek him out. This is why my feelings are on the surface again. I WAS moving on and now it's fresh in my mind again. If he's a player, I'm sure there are plenty of opportunities in his local area and he's not going to go to all the trouble of seeking me out and reconnecting with me with me in this way. And regarding his online dating profile, he's had one for years and nothing ever comes of it. It's a way for him to fight the lonliness and engage in fantasy dating and have virtual relationships in a virtual world and get his ego stroked all behind the saftey of the computer screen and not in real time in the real world. The REAL question is, if HE doesn't really want a relationship with me, why does HE keep on seeking me out and reconnecting in this way making it difficult for me??!! He's the one who broke up and I did not run after him or pursue him, I let him go. And if he's over and done with me, why does HE keep on seeking me out, why doesn't HE just let go and move on!! Geeeeez!! The comments would be applicable if I was the one pursuing and contacting him and seeking him out for reconnection at all costs!! Sometimes people just DON'T get it because it's NOT normal, it's weird!!

Yeah, I can sympathise with that. I'm not sure what kind of relationship I'd be okay with if mine resurfaced - I really don't think I could do casual, but on the other hand I wouldn't want to let him get too close to me until he'd proved he'd got his act together, either.

In the earlier stages of the breakup, as you know, I gave him his walking papers when he resurfaced. At this stage, it IS a tough call, but I know I can't do casual with him just thinking he can float in or out at will. It raises too many emotions for me and it's not like starting a relationship from scratch. So . . . I don't know??

You'd think they'd have to, but... I don't know if they're even able to look past themselves enough to get that perspective. Like... mine broke up with me saying that he couldn't handle an adult relationship and knew he'd end up hurting me if he stayed with me and couldn't stand the idea of hurting me - and I honestly think it did tear him up to hurt me - but then, why not just not hurt me? Is it honestly that complicated?

Mine was ALL stressed out during the breakup, kept on expressing with

excrutiating pain, "Whyyyyy is this so hard??????" and even had the audacity to suggest that he "thought we could help and support each other through this." He also said, "I hope we both find a long term relationship that's just like this one." This is when he was blaming it on a physical move that is still within driving distance knowing full well that I'm not tied to a 9 to 5 and was able and willing to travel to maintain the relationship. Eventually, post move, he had to look for reasons other than physical distance and that's when he became REALLY stressed out and said, "This is really stressing me out and I can't stop thinking about it." I said, "I'm sorry I'm stressing you out." He snapped back at me, "YOU'RE not stressing me out, I'M stressing me out and I don't have to tell you WHY because WHY doesn't matter!!" WOW!! What do you make of all that??!!

(My counsellor says it's actually pretty positive and honest that he can acknowledge he isn't emotionally whole enough right now to have the kind of relationship he wants, or to give me what I need without letting me down. But, damn. He was doing fine before this! Why not just try harder, rather than cutting and running? Does he honestly believe this is the way to not hurt me?)

It IS good that he is self-aware that he isn't emotionally whole enough to have a healthy relationship. However . . . he WASN'T doing fine before this because if he was, his CP issues would have been resolved and well behind him and he wouldn't have freaked and run. In a healthy non-CP relationship, he would have turned to you for support in dealing with his depression and issues. If he's CP, these outside issues are NOT what caused him to freak and run. They may have accelerated the process, but they are in no way the cause. Unresolved CP is always going to rear its ugly head in some way at some point in time! Nothing will change that except very hard work on the part of the individual to distinctly resolve the issues of CP. Even if he resolved all his other issues including depression, if he doesn't face and resolve the CP, it's still there.

(Weird thing... but honestly, before the serious mixed-messages stuff recently, even though everybody was telling me he was trying to keep some connection to me with all the contact and clearly didn't want me out of his life just yet, I couldn't quite believe it. I thought maybe he was just humouring me because he knew I was upset and missed him, or something. It's not until this recent stuff, where he knew I got annoyed with him and started to go OTT with the kisses and reminding me of the good times stuff, that I realised everyone's right - this is not typical breakup behaviour, and he does not want me gone for good.

I have no doubt that he does NOT want you out of his life. The question becomes, do YOU want him in your life and if so how?? Do you want him in your life in his current form? I don't think so from what you've said. Once you get further removed from it you'll be able to see and think more clearly and decide for yourself what it will take for him to have a part in your life, if at all. Trust me, the key is backing away through NC and seeing the forest as well as the trees.

So it does feel a bit like I'm playing games: "ah, now I KNOW you get something from having me around, I'm going to back away!". But at the same time it feels like I'm refusing to play his game.

There's no games here!! He's the one who broke up with you and it's reasonable for you to back away and it's also reasonable for you to feel some power in the fact that you know HE still wants you around. The key is to maintain your power by not getting sucked in and charmed. All you're doing by backing away is doing what YOU need to do for yourself to gain a greater perspective and get healthy and strong. There are no game on your part here.

It's as if he's decided we're going to play some game of chess. Except this isn't normal chess, this is chess by some bizarre rules he's made up. So I have three choices:
- keep trying to work out what the rules are and apologising to him if I get them wrong;
- yell at him about having the stupid rules in the first place, and demand to play by the actual normal-person rules;
- get up and walk away from the game for a while.

At this point, even yelling at him that he's being unreasonable and that he's hurting me feels like it keeps me stuck in the game, negotiating the rules. If I just disappear... well, he's not expecting that.

You're right, it is like a bizarre twisted game of chess and when your heart's involved it makes the stakes feel higher. But here's the deal, if you don't get up and walk away from the table, chances are high you'll end up playing the same game of chess with the same old twisted rules. Walk away, gain strength, and decide on YOUR rules. To do this takes time and distance. And then, only after becoming strong and secure in what your own rules are, engage only if he can fully meet YOUR rules and expectations!!

Also, I am terrified and feel sick at the thought that he'll end up getting involved in a relationship with someone else - someone he doesn't have to feel guilty and/or vulnerable around, someone who's never seen him freak out and run. And if that happens now, well... it'll still hurt like nothing on earth, but at least I'll have some comfort in knowing I walked away at a time of my choosing, when he was starting to chase me a bit. (That's where the panicky stuff about 'omg, he's walking a different way to work!' I posted earlier in this thread came from. Turns out that's the way to work if he's coming from the counselling place... so that's another possible explanation! Heh, I'll probably never know.)

Oh maaaaan, I used to have this feeling. And at times I thought selfishly, all he's learned and gained from me is now going to benefit someone else. I thought, he's now ready for a healthy relationship with someone else because of what he gained from the relationship with me. Those were pretty selfish thoughts on my part because really, I hope all individuals I touch in life gain something rather than lose something as a result of their experience with me. They were selfish thoughts and they were also irrational thoughts because after all, this guy is deeply CP. He may form a relationhip with someone else . . . but it will be a relationship with distance because he can't be close and attached . . . and if he becomes close and attached he'll freak and run because he has CP. He could even marry someone and he'll still go through this pursuit/panic dance within the relationship because he has CP. He felt intense emotions for me and got attached at a level he could not handle so he freaked and ran. There's no way he can ever replace me and what I offered him or what we had. He won't even come close. I was there for him heart and soul and he knows it and he opened up to me in a way that is not ordinary for him because he guards his heart. Sure . . . he can have another relationship . . . and maybe all he can handle is a relationship with distance . . . but whatever future relationship he has will never replace our relationship. And, I could walk away knowing that I conducted myself with respect, grace, and dignity throughout our time together. Maybe he is more suited to someone more like him who is unstable and volitile and the drama maintains the distance.

That's one thing that I've been wondering about recently - how would I know that he'd resolved them? I mean, he's obviously very, very good at freaking out quietly by himself in a way that I won't see it coming until everything goes ka-BOOM, and I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend a whole relationship thinking 'when's this going to happen again?'. So if he came back I'd still need some guarantee that wouldn't happen - but I have no idea what that kind of guarantee would look like. 'Promise me' is hardly going to cut it when he can kid himself about it. Something to think about. Hmm..)

In life and love, as I'm sure you already know, there are no absolute guarantees. As you get further away and more secure within yourself and what YOU want and need from a relationship you'll be able to define what your expectations are and what you need for assurances in order to re-engage, if that's what you end up choosing to do. It's stepping away from it and gaining that strength and security in yourself that is important in being able to discern this.

Thank you! I'm trying... like you said, it WILL get better with time. It still feels like a torpedo hit me, though.

I'm sure it does feel like a torpedo hit you head on. And it's especially difficult and takes even greater strength because he's attempting to maintain and rekindle the connection . . . but on his terms! That's what's so hard about relationships with CPs. They can't commit to being with you . . . and they can't commit to being without you. You're strong. I'm strong. We'll get through this!!

PS I just got word this afternoon that my date for Thursday has been cancelled. I met this guy through a mutual friend Saturday and he came to the event with another friend of my friend. So . . . he cancels by telling his friend to tell my friend to tell me and and his reason. So, I e-mailed my friend back and said, "This is a very interesting mode of communication." I said, "Please tell (friend's friend) to tell (him), 'Thank you very much for telling (friend's friend) to tell (my friend) to tell me that you will be unable to make it on Thursday and I hope you have fun with your friends.'" Is this ridiculous or what??!! I know he does not have my contact info. but he could have easily gotten it and called me directly. He not only communicated through a second party, he communicated through a third party!! We are middle aged adults here, not teenagers!! To think I've frightened a big strapping German man to the point where he needs to cancel a date and doesn't dare to call me directly and does so through a third party. WOW!! Does it ever end!! LOL

January 13, 2010

So . . . he's quite friendly with most of his exes . . . it rings a bell! My ex-bf was quite proud that he was able to maintain friendships with some exes, including the one that came a year before me. Their relationship was a short 3 months, and this friends with the exes thing, including the more recent one never used to bother me . . . BUT . . . when I really started to look at things . . . friend zoing may be a way of keeping an ex on ice in case the CP changes their mind.

Yeah, plus the fear-of-abandonment thing in overdrive. I never minded mine being friends with exes either, and in fact I thought it was a good thing - if he'd had a history of ex-girlfriends who refused to speak to him and wanted his head on a stick, that would have been a warning. So I don't think he's pulled the large-scale CP freakout over and over again in his past, either, because I find it difficult to believe the exes would all still think so well of him if he had! That said... there must be small-scale CP freakouts that these men do too... and maybe those aren't as headspinningly weird to encounter?

I think also, CP weirdness is going to get more obvious as people get older and start trying for more serious things. Fairly sure my ex's CP issues aren't new, but when he was, say, 24 and not looking for any kind of serious relationship, they weren't going to get in the way so much. With me... he's in his 30s now, he'd been re-evaluating his life after losing some people very close to him, decided he wasn't happy with carrying on living the way he had been and really wanted to change stuff... and so when he fell totally in love with me and we were planning a future and long-term stuff, he was really happy because that's what he wanted... and then... big-scale CP freakout, because the issues of course hadn't gone away.

I'm glad for you that your friends have gotten a clear picture. I still don't think some of my friends have got it. One of my friends recently said, "Why don't you just get over him. Let him go. He's just playing you and using you. He put his dating profile back up so it's obvious he's dating other women. Why are you hanging on. Just let gooooooooooooo."

Ugh yeah, that's annoying - like you're the one who can't let go, and he's already moved on!

The last one of my friends to use the 'he's just not that into you' and 'he's just letting you down gently, he's over it' type of line did it quite recently after his behaviour got really weird - so I said "OK, a few days ago he annoyed me, so I backed off - didn't even yell and cry, just backed off - and since then he's sent me emails signed off with kisses and has made sure I know that he's reading all the 'my boyfriend is so awesome!' entries on my blog from 2008, now what do you think he's doing?" My friend: "Uhhhh... yeah, that's... just weird."

And regarding his online dating profile, he's had one for years and nothing ever comes of it. It's a way for him to fight the lonliness and engage in fantasy dating and have virtual relationships in a virtual world and get his ego stroked all behind the saftey of the computer screen and not in real time in the real world.

Ah-ha, now that sounds familiar! Yeah, mine did that too - always had online dating profiles in the past. He deleted them when he was with me (we actually met online, so I was a lot less comfortable with him having dating profiles up, even though I knew he wouldn't be seriously trying to meet people with them). So that was one of the sabotage things he did - set up a fake profile on a social networking site where he knew I'd probably see it, and flirt with some girls online, even without any way or intention of meeting them in real life. WTF, dude, watch porn like everybody else.

Sometimes people just DON'T get it because it's NOT normal, it's weird!!

Yeah, like your guy's 'I can't believe you want to continue because what if it deteriorates!' line. Normal people don't think that way - it doesn't make sense to the rest of us!

Towards the end of the relationship mine was actually trying to explain some of the ways his mind worked when he got panicky - to himself as well as to me, I'm pretty sure - and it was weird to hear. He said he thought he was scared of us moving in together because "if I lost my own space, I wouldn't have anywhere to run away to if things got bad." He couldn't give me any reason to think things would go bad (apart from "you might come to your senses and leave me!"), couldn't explain what 'going bad' meant... but he obviously needed to have some escape route in place.

And I think that's how his mind worked with everything, especially emotional stuff, especially especially feeling close to and vulnerable around me. There had to be some way out - and if getting that escape route meant kicking holes in the walls of the relationship (with the sabotage stuff) so he'd have a safety hatch, then obviously, he'd do that.

In the earlier stages of the breakup, as you know, I gave him his walking papers when he resurfaced. At this stage, it IS a tough call, but I know I can't do casual with him just thinking he can float in or out at will. It raises too many emotions for me and it's not like starting a relationship from scratch. So . . . I don't know??

Oh yeah, you do not want to encourage that putting-you-on-pause behaviour! It sounds like he'd just keep doing it... and you don't want to end up 10 years in the future, about to marry Brad Pitt, and have this guy show up with a bunch of red roses going "But you said you wanted to talk!" And exactly, you can't start from scratch. I think you'd need to know he's willing to work on some of the commitment issues by having him show you he's willing to face them.

Mine was ALL stressed out during the breakup, kept on expressing with excrutiating pain, "Whyyyyy is this so hard??????" and even had the audacity to suggest that he "thought we could help and support each other through this."

Ha! I got "Maybe in a little while we can chat online and find out how we're both doing." Um what? I confronted him on that and said "and where exactly do you see us in the future, hmmm?" and he said "I would hope that in the future, we could at the very least be very good friends." That's about the time I lost my temper! I went from begging him to reconsider to yelling furious, and tore absolute strips off him. I do not regret it.

I said, "I'm sorry I'm stressing you out." He snapped back at me, "YOU'RE not stressing me out, I'M stressing me out and I don't have to tell you WHY because WHY doesn't matter!!" WOW!! What do you make of all that??!!

Weird! My ex did some stuff like that too... I can only make sense of it by translating it as "Why DOES matter, but if I thought about it I'd have to look at all the scary stuff inside my head and YOU CAN'T MAKE ME so THERE!"

It IS good that he is self-aware that he isn't emotionally whole enough to have a healthy relationship. However . . . he WASN'T doing fine before this because if he was, his CP issues would have been resolved and well behind him and he wouldn't have freaked and run. In a healthy non-CP relationship, he would have turned to you for support in dealing with his depression and issues. If he's CP, these outside issues are NOT what caused him to freak and run. They may have accelerated the process, but they are in no way the cause. Unresolved CP is always going to rear its ugly head in some way at some point in time! Nothing will change that except very hard work on the part of the individual to distinctly resolve the issues of CP. Even if he resolved all his other issues including depression, if he doesn't face and resolve the CP, it's still there.

Yeah exactly, you are right there. Even if the CP issues weren't affecting him for lots of the relationship, they were still there lurking and waiting to come exploding back out.

It is hugely frustrating to me that in the weeks before we broke up (after one near-breakup after his weird sabotage stuff) he was starting to really look inside his head and work out what was going on... and why he did what he did and thought the way he did... he even got a journal to write down his thoughts because he thought he'd be able to understand them better that way... and he honestly seemed to be getting somewhere with that (all the 'I think I'm scared I won't have anywhere to run away to if things get bad!') stuff, and then he just ran. But, maybe that's why he ran... maybe starting to really look at the way his mind worked was just way too scary?

I have no doubt that he does NOT want you out of his life. The question becomes, do YOU want him in your life and if so how?? Do you want him in your life in his current form?

Not in his current form, I don't, no. And especially the mixed-messages stuff he's doing right now. I don't want him in my life when he feels like he can switch into his evil messed-up twin whenever the mood suits him!

You're right, it is like a bizarre twisted game of chess and when your heart's involved it makes the stakes feel higher. But here's the deal, if you don't get up and walk away from the table, chances are high you'll end up playing the same game of chess with the same old twisted rules. Walk away, gain strength, and decide on YOUR rules. To do this takes time and distance. And then, only after becoming strong and secure in what your own rules are, engage only if he can fully meet YOUR rules and expectations!!

Plus, I've been thinking about it, and it strikes me that this is a really good time to drop contact with him - he knows he did something to annoy me (so now he gets to see the consequences), and he's also going to learn this way that just turning back on the kisses and remember-the-good-times! is not going to make me forget it. Plus... he's seen me upset, he's seen me confused and hurt, he's seen me yell at him and he's seen me cry and plead with him. He has never, in all the time he's known me, see me say "Yeah, I've had enough" and walk away. He won't be expecting me to do that.

Oh maaaaan, I used to have this feeling. And at times I thought selfishly, all he's learned and gained from me is now going to benefit someone else. I thought, he's now ready for a healthy relationship with someone else because of what he gained from the relationship with me. Those were pretty selfish thoughts on my part because really, I hope all individuals I touch in life gain something rather than lose something as a result of their experience with me.

It is selfish but... I think the fact that they're CP and weird makes it so much harder to not think that way. Even the worst breakup I've had in the past, I look back on it now and think 'well, I hope he did gain something from being with me, I hope he's living a happy life now even if I never want to see him again.' But with breakups because of CP issues, you don't have the comfort of knowing 'it was never going to work between us' - it could have worked fantastically (for all we knew until the CP issues became clear!), it was going great, etc etc.

He felt intense emotions for me and got attached at a level he could not handle so he freaked and ran. There's no way he can ever replace me and what I offered him or what we had. He won't even come close. I was there for him heart and soul and he knows it and he opened up to me in a way that is not ordinary for him because he guards his heart. Sure . . . he can have another relationship . . . and maybe all he can handle is a relationship with distance . . . but whatever future relationship he has will never replace our relationship.

That's how I'm trying to think of it as well. In a weird way, the big-scale CP freakout is a sign that this relationship did mean something hugely important to him - it's because he did get so close and so attached that he freaked and ran, not because he didn't. So it's a kind of double-edged sword... on one hand, me and this relationship meant a huge, huge amount to him, which is nice to know; but on the other hand, at some point in the relationship, me and the relationship became the problem - the thing he needed to find an escape hatch from. And that's one of the things that's going to be tough to address if he does resurface, because I feel... betrayed to think that some of the time when he was saying 'I want to spend the rest of my life with you', part of him was thinking 'How can I get out of this?' I'm sure his CP issues are very deep-rooted and nothing to do with me and come out of some really bad stuff in his past and blah blah blah whatever, but that hurts.

I'm sure it does feel like a torpedo hit you head on. And it's especially difficult and takes even greater strength because he's attempting to maintain and rekindle the connection . . . but on his terms! That's what's so hard about relationships with CPs. They can't commit to being with you . . . and they can't commit to being without you.

Yes! God it's frustrating. I've just finished Men Who Can't Love, and thinking in retrospect that I'm kind of lucky - I can see lots of my ex's patterns in the examples there, but at least he wasn't one of the really bad ones (men who left when their SOs were in the shower and never contacted them again!), and he didn't blame me for the problems, and he does acknowledge he has issues that he needs to get professional help for. So at least... it could have been worse. But what he's doing now with the come-here-go-away stuff, ARGH.

You're strong. I'm strong. We'll get through this!!

Yes! And we will NOT let ourselves get dragged around in the wake of someone else's CP issues by letting them have everything on THEIR terms. (What is this weird control thing they have?)

PS I just got word this afternoon that my date for Thursday has been cancelled. I met this guy through a mutual friend Saturday and he came to the event with another friend of my friend. So . . . he cancels by telling his friend to tell my friend to tell me and and his reason. So, I e-mailed my friend back and said, "This is a very interesting mode of communication." I said, "Please tell (friend's friend) to tell (him), 'Thank you very much for telling (friend's friend) to tell (my friend) to tell me that you will be unable to make it on Thursday and I hope you have fun with your friends.'" Is this ridiculous or what??!! I know he does not have my contact info. but he could have easily gotten it and called me directly. He not only communicated through a second party, he communicated through a third party!! We are middle aged adults here, not teenagers!! To think I've frightened a big strapping German man to the point where he needs to cancel a date and doesn't dare to call me directly and does so through a third party. WOW!! Does it ever end!! LOL

LOL! Brilliant... I presume he usually asks people out on dates by handing them a note saying 'Do you like me? Tick: yes [] no [] maybe []'

January 13, 2010

Yeah, plus the fear-of-abandonment thing in overdrive. I never minded mine being friends with exes either, and in fact I thought it was a good thing - if he'd had a history of ex-girlfriends who refused to speak to him and wanted his head on a stick, that would have been a warning. So I don't think he's pulled the large-scale CP freakout over and over again in his past, either, because I find it difficult to believe the exes would all still think so well of him if he had! That said... there must be small-scale CP freakouts that these men do too... and maybe those aren't as headspinningly weird to encounter?

One thing that I have wondered about in regard to this friends with the exes thing is described on www.baggagereclaim.com as the "fallback girl." Sometimes I've thought . . . maybe it really is a way of collecting a harem of sorts. Have you ever visited the site?

I think also, CP weirdness is going to get more obvious as people get older and start trying for more serious things. Fairly sure my ex's CP issues aren't new, but when he was, say, 24 and not looking for any kind of serious relationship, they weren't going to get in the way so much. With me... he's in his 30s now, he'd been re-evaluating his life after losing some people very close to him, decided he wasn't happy with carrying on living the way he had been and really wanted to change stuff... and so when he fell totally in love with me and we were planning a future and long-term stuff, he was really happy because that's what he wanted... and then... big-scale CP freakout, because the issues of course hadn't gone away.

I think you're absolutely right. It's quite typical for a younger person to not want anything serious and not want to settle down. Therefore, at a young age, running from anything serious feels normal . . . and then later. . . running from relationships attributing it to the quest for the perfect partner seems normal . . . but then, as the years go by . . . they start to run out of excuses for running and they reach an age and think . . . WOW . . . do I really want to be alone for my life. That's why there's a greater chance of people overcoming this in middle age.

Ugh yeah, that's annoying - like you're the one who can't let go, and he's already moved on!

The last one of my friends to use the 'he's just not that into you' and 'he's just letting you down gently, he's over it' type of line did it quite recently after his behaviour got really weird - so I said "OK, a few days ago he annoyed me, so I backed off - didn't even yell and cry, just backed off - and since then he's sent me emails signed off with kisses and has made sure I know that he's reading all the 'my boyfriend is so awesome!' entries on my blog from 2008, now what do you think he's doing?" My friend: "Uhhhh... yeah, that's... just weird."

It's good that your friends are starting to get it!! It can be really hard to get through this when friends just don't understand and misinterpret it. When you've completely backed off, initiated NC, and THEY resurface seeking reconnection . . . excuse me . . . but WHO is having the problem letting go??!! LOL

Ah-ha, now that sounds familiar! Yeah, mine did that too - always had online dating profiles in the past. He deleted them when he was with me (we actually met online, so I was a lot less comfortable with him having dating profiles up, even though I knew he wouldn't be seriously trying to meet people with them). So that was one of the sabotage things he did - set up a fake profile on a social networking site where he knew I'd probably see it, and flirt with some girls online, even without any way or intention of meeting them in real life. WTF, dude, watch porn like everybody else.

In our case, we didn't meet online, but we discussed online dating which I hadn't and haven't much experience with. He talked about how it was an ego boost when someone tags you as a favorite. I responded, "It would depend on who tags you." He said, "Well, you're not normal." I guess any attention from anyone serves his needs!!

Setting up the profile that you would see was definately an attempt at sabotage. I also see it as a way to attempt to detach and create distance. I think it's used in an effort of distraction and running away from the relationship. You'd think with ALL this effort at sabotage and disconnection that they'd be able to just go, and be gone!!

I had a friend of mine say to me last week, "Look, he's put his online dating profile back up. Can't you just accept that he doesn't want this and let gooooo." I tried a to explain a little "this act is meaningless . . . other than he's running again" but why bother!! It just doesn't compute in people's brains when they haven't been through it because it's ALL bass ackwards!!

Yeah, like your guy's 'I can't believe you want to continue because what if it deteriorates!' line. Normal people don't think that way - it doesn't make sense to the rest of us!

Towards the end of the relationship mine was actually trying to explain some of the ways his mind worked when he got panicky - to himself as well as to me, I'm pretty sure - and it was weird to hear. He said he thought he was scared of us moving in together because "if I lost my own space, I wouldn't have anywhere to run away to if things got bad." He couldn't give me any reason to think things would go bad (apart from "you might come to your senses and leave me!"), couldn't explain what 'going bad' meant... but he obviously needed to have some escape route in place.

I think your guy is much more self aware than my guy!! At least he could isolate the thought "moving in together" that was causing his emotion "scared" although he wasn't able to examine the irrational thought of why he feared something good would go bad, but it's a start!! The only thing my guy could conclude was there was no logical reason for ending it, that normally he's very logical, it was just a "gut" feeling and he had to go with his gut. So . . . he's got a looooooooooong way to go! When he was here over the holidays, he did say to me, "Believe me, I've thought about this alot, and sometimes you just gotta go for it." But then he also said during that same conversation, "I still just have this feeling" referring to that "gut" thing. (there's those freaky mixed signals again!!). I said, "Love is a choice . . . And some people, when they give their heart, they give it fully, and risk vulnerability, and that's the way I am because I want to experience love fully. . . And other people, to protect from vulnerability and being hurt, guard their heart, and don't experience love fully." And he immediately responded with an expression of exasperation, "Are you saying that's not normal????????" I said, "I'm just saying that's the way it is." (side note: If the shoe fits . . . . LOL)

And I think that's how his mind worked with everything, especially emotional stuff, especially especially feeling close to and vulnerable around me. There had to be some way out - and if getting that escape route meant kicking holes in the walls of the relationship (with the sabotage stuff) so he'd have a safety hatch, then obviously, he'd do that.

BINGO!! This is right on the money!!

Oh yeah, you do not want to encourage that putting-you-on-pause behaviour! It sounds like he'd just keep doing it... and you don't want to end up 10 years in the future, about to marry Brad Pitt, and have this guy show up with a bunch of red roses going "But you said you wanted to talk!" And exactly, you can't start from scratch. I think you'd need to know he's willing to work on some of the commitment issues by having him show you he's willing to face them.

LOL ...LOL...LOL!! Your response is hilarious!!!! I can just see it!!! Show up in ten years with roses when he's far back in the archives of my memory and say, "But you said you wanted to talk!!!!" hahahahaha. I do need greater assurance if we are to continue and I don't want him to get the idea I'm on "pause" because it affects my pride. Pushing "play" and then "pause" is disrespectful and I want him to be aware I won't tolerate it. For all I know when we talk he could come up with some cockamamie excuse as to why we can't continue ("then why'd you seek me out and reconnect in the first place, crazy boy!!") or he could genuinely want to establish something or it could be anything in between. I have no idea of what to expect. But what I do know, is what I expect and either he can meet my expectations and have a genuine adult relationship with me or he can go wander off into his virtual world of online dating with the quest for the non-existent perfect partner and repeat his cycle(s) with someone else. (Come to think of it, during the breakup he said, "I've got to break the cycle!!" and it was said out of the context of anything being said, so apparently he has some awareness that he has an issue having to do with "cycles"!!).

It is hugely frustrating to me that in the weeks before we broke up (after one near-breakup after his weird sabotage stuff) he was starting to really look inside his head and work out what was going on... and why he did what he did and thought the way he did... he even got a journal to write down his thoughts because he thought he'd be able to understand them better that way... and he honestly seemed to be getting somewhere with that (all the 'I think I'm scared I won't have anywhere to run away to if things get bad!') stuff, and then he just ran. But, maybe that's why he ran... maybe starting to really look at the way his mind worked was just way too scary?

Sometimes looking in a mirror can be very scary . . . and so . . . people go back to unhealthy defense mechanisms and denial.

Not in his current form, I don't, no. And especially the mixed-messages stuff he's doing right now. I don't want him in my life when he feels like he can switch into his evil messed-up twin whenever the mood suits him!

"Evil messed-up twin" is a REALLY good way of putting it because that's what it really feels like!! The good-boy, ever so attentive and charming twin comes out and the partner feels like, ohhhhh, this is so wonderful, everything is bliss, it couldn't be better until all at once and out of the blue as far as the partner's concerned, the evil messed-up twin appears to raise havoc, sabotage, and create a comfortable distance. It's like, "Excuse me, are these two personalities truly living in the same body??!!"

Plus, I've been thinking about it, and it strikes me that this is a really good time to drop contact with him - he knows he did something to annoy me (so now he gets to see the consequences), and he's also going to learn this way that just turning back on the kisses and remember-the-good-times! is not going to make me forget it. Plus... he's seen me upset, he's seen me confused and hurt, he's seen me yell at him and he's seen me cry and plead with him. He has never, in all the time he's known me, see me say "Yeah, I've had enough" and walk away. He won't be expecting me to do that.

It is ABSOLUTELY the best time!! You've kept your pride and dignity intact, and by dropping contact, you are issuing a consequence and establishing a boundary that you will NOT tolerate this type of behavior and he can NOT ever do this again to you!!

You know . . . having written that . . . it makes me wonder what these guys were like as kids . . . were they the type that were always pushing the boundaries and limits with their parents?? I have no idea of what the answer is to that question.

It is selfish but... I think the fact that they're CP and weird makes it so much harder to not think that way. Even the worst breakup I've had in the past, I look back on it now and think 'well, I hope he did gain something from being with me, I hope he's living a happy life now even if I never want to see him again.' But with breakups because of CP issues, you don't have the comfort of knowing 'it was never going to work between us' - it could have worked fantastically (for all we knew until the CP issues became clear!), it was going great, etc etc.

The breakup with CPs is especially hard because they break it off not because they're NOT into you, but because they're TOO into you. It's all bass ackwards with a CP!!

That's how I'm trying to think of it as well. In a weird way, the big-scale CP freakout is a sign that this relationship did mean something hugely important to him - it's because he did get so close and so attached that he freaked and ran, not because he didn't. So it's a kind of double-edged sword... on one hand, me and this relationship meant a huge, huge amount to him, which is nice to know; but on the other hand, at some point in the relationship, me and the relationship became the problem - the thing he needed to find an escape hatch from. And that's one of the things that's going to be tough to address if he does resurface, because I feel... betrayed to think that some of the time when he was saying 'I want to spend the rest of my life with you', part of him was thinking 'How can I get out of this?' I'm sure his CP issues are very deep-rooted and nothing to do with me and come out of some really bad stuff in his past and blah blah blah whatever, but that hurts.

His CP has NOTHING to do with you and EVERYTHING to do with him. I think that when he said he wanted to spend his life with you he really DID mean it, it was taking the action to actually do it that freaked him out. I bet he had every intention of following through when he said it . . . but then when it came time to start acting on it . . . his anxiety became overwhelming and his body went into a "fight or flight" response and he instinctively ran. Never the less, it STILL hurts!! And without help, he'll run again!!

Yes! God it's frustrating. I've just finished Men Who Can't Love, and thinking in retrospect that I'm kind of lucky - I can see lots of my ex's patterns in the examples there, but at least he wasn't one of the really bad ones (men who left when their SOs were in the shower and never contacted them again!), and he didn't blame me for the problems, and he does acknowledge he has issues that he needs to get professional help for. So at least... it could have been worse. But what he's doing now with the come-here-go-away stuff, ARGH.

Yes! And we will NOT let ourselves get dragged around in the wake of someone else's CP issues by letting them have everything on THEIR terms. (What is this weird control thing they have?)

I've read lots of the Carter and Sokol books on CP too, and some other material, and it IS helpful to have it put into words as to what's going on. Like you, I believe it could have been alot worse but it really rattled my brain because it was a first encounter with someone like this and they're so bass ackwards!! I'm new to the single world having been divorced 3 years ago after a LT marriage. On the other hand, my CP ex-bf has never been married and I don't know if he's experienced a "real" live together situation so . . . we came together from VASTLY different starting points!!

My hypothesis regarding the "control thing" is that anxiety produces a feeling of being "out of control," therefore, the "weird control thing" is a way of alleviating the anxiety by trying to gain control. This is what I think . . . but God knows!!

Take extra good care of yourself and keep your chin up. It will get easier and easier. I promise!!

January 14, 2010

One thing that I have wondered about in regard to this friends with the exes thing is described on www.baggagereclaim.com as the "fallback girl." Sometimes I've thought . . . maybe it really is a way of collecting a harem of sorts. Have you ever visited the site?

I haven't, but I'm combing through the archives now!

Yeah, in my ex's case it's sort of like a harem of approval - 'I'm not with these people any more, but loooooook, they still like me!' These aren't women he's strung along or messed around, which has to make it easier for him to maintain that. That said... I know there's only one ex in there he didn't actually want to lose (she broke up with him), and he pined for her for three years. So at least... if he's not over me today, he's probably not going to be over me by next week either! That is comforting to know. *sniffle*

I do not plan to end up as part of the harem. Either I'm in his life on my terms, or I'm gone. Friendship is not the runner-up prize.

but then, as the years go by . . . they start to run out of excuses for running and they reach an age and think . . . WOW . . . do I really want to be alone for my life. That's why there's a greater chance of people overcoming this in middle age.

My guy told me once that one of his deepest fears was ending up alone for the rest of his life. Maybe that's why he actually did get to the stage of 'I'm a mess, I need help'? (Or maybe I should've taken that as a warning, because hmmm, why was he so worried that might happen?) I think he honestly knew he had a problem with the CP stuff, but also believed a) it wasn't that bad a problem and b) he was over it in the relationship with me. He actually apologised about this during the breakup, saying "I'm sorry, I knew I should have had more time to fix myself before getting involved with someone, but I was greedy and selfish and I wanted you and I thought it would be okay." Um yes it WAS greedy and selfish... sigh!

It's good that your friends are starting to get it!! It can be really hard to get through this when friends just don't understand and misinterpret it. When you've completely backed off, initiated NC, and THEY resurface seeking reconnection . . . excuse me . . . but WHO is having the problem letting go??!! LOL

Oh yeah, it is so frustrating when everyone around you is seeing it through the lens of What A Normal Person Would Do. I had so many people telling me all these different ideas of what my ex wanted from me and wtf he was doing (well, I was asking everyone!), but they've mostly given up on explanations past "He's just acting weird!" now, which does help a bit. (What I did find odd - a lot of my female friends went for the 'He's just a slimeball who never loved you, men just do this sort of thing sometimes!' angle at first, but my male friends almost all went straight for 'That's just bizarre - it sounds like he needs a psychiatrist or something').

Clearly what we need is a support group for victims of Hurricane CP!

In our case, we didn't meet online, but we discussed online dating which I hadn't and haven't much experience with. He talked about how it was an ego boost when someone tags you as a favorite. I responded, "It would depend on who tags you." He said, "Well, you're not normal." I guess any attention from anyone serves his needs!!

Ha! I've done a bit of online dating, and some of the men who tagged me as a favourite were less 'ego boost' and more 'omg, restraining order'! I got this one message from someone who spent about 2 lines telling me I looked interesting and pretty and he'd like to get to know me better, and then two PARAGRAPHS saying 'so I'm recently divorced and looking for a relationship with a woman who isn't a gold-digger who'll cheat on me and use me because my ex-wife has left me so bitter and cynical and I HATE women who do that and I am NOT looking for someone who's just going to act that way, even though I'm starting to think all women do!!!!!!!!', and so on and so on. Woah, um, maybe I won't be emailing you back...

Setting up the profile that you would see was definately an attempt at sabotage. I also see it as a way to attempt to detach and create distance. I think it's used in an effort of distraction and running away from the relationship.

That was actually his explanation too when I called him on it - "It was just a distraction!" Uh, a distraction from what, me? "No, not you! I was just worried because I knew I wasn't ready to move in with you and you'd be really angry with me if I backed out again and that would mess things up!" So... you... did this as an attempt to not mess it up? Oh, good one.

I think your guy is much more self aware than my guy!! At least he could isolate the thought "moving in together" that was causing his emotion "scared" although he wasn't able to examine the irrational thought of why he feared something good would go bad, but it's a start!!

Yes - it does seem to be getting somewhere! But even that insight into a CP mind was just so freaky and terrifying. One of the things he said, in the context of living together and why his behaviour had been so uncharacteristically weird and selfish recently - and he really wasn't ever selfish with his time around me before -: "I need to work out why doing all the things that are normal in an adult relationship suddenly feels like giving parts of myself away, and I know that's not right and I need to work out why I think that way." You whaaaaaaat? I know that his CP issues aren't coming from me, but, ouch

The only thing my guy could conclude was there was no logical reason for ending it, that normally he's very logical, it was just a "gut" feeling and he had to go with his gut. So . . . he's got a looooooooooong way to go! When he was here over the holidays, he did say to me, "Believe me, I've thought about this alot, and sometimes you just gotta go for it." But then he also said during that same conversation, "I still just have this feeling" referring to that "gut" thing. (there's those freaky mixed signals again!!). I said, "Love is a choice . . . And some people, when they give their heart, they give it fully, and risk vulnerability, and that's the way I am because I want to experience love fully. . . And other people, to protect from vulnerability and being hurt, guard their heart, and don't experience love fully." And he immediately responded with an expression of exasperation, "Are you saying that's not normal????????" I said, "I'm just saying that's the way it is." (side note: If the shoe fits . . . . LOL)

You are a lot stronger than me with that last line - I don't think I'd have been able to resist saying it out loud! Weird... so... it's a 'gut feeling', but he trusts his gut? He doesn't think his intuitions have ever been unreliable in the past, even though he usually operates by logic? From that line about 'breaking the cycle', he clearly knows he's got some issue somewhere... does he appreciate that it's a panic-and-run thing? Maybe he's getting there verrrrrrrrry slowwwwwwwwwly? Has he called yet?

Speaking of the cut-and-run thing, one thing that did really annoy me about my break-up was that he got as far as identifying the fact that he panics and runs - and then panicked and ran by breaking up with me. But in his head, that wasn't panicking and running away! That was a perfectly rational sensible choice and 'the best thing for both of us'. Gah.

"Evil messed-up twin" is a REALLY good way of putting it because that's what it really feels like!! The good-boy, ever so attentive and charming twin comes out and the partner feels like, ohhhhh, this is so wonderful, everything is bliss, it couldn't be better until all at once and out of the blue as far as the partner's concerned, the evil messed-up twin appears to raise havoc, sabotage, and create a comfortable distance. It's like, "Excuse me, are these two personalities truly living in the same body??!!"

Yes, exactly! And it seems it's even MORE obvious with all this weird mixed-signals-Olympic-champion stuff he's done since the breakup. When I suggested we meet up to talk and he bit my head off for trying to trick him into talking about more serious stuff, and then two hours later he was sending me really friendly emails with kisses at the bottom, one of my friends said "Wow, you should ask him which one of him plans to show up to that talk."

It is ABSOLUTELY the best time!! You've kept your pride and dignity intact, and by dropping contact, you are issuing a consequence and establishing a boundary that you will NOT tolerate this type of behavior and he can NOT ever do this again to you!!

Yeah. I feel a lot better for making that decision, I really do! I still don't know what I'll do if he contacts me again; if it's chatty irrelevant stuff I'm happy to ignore it, but if he starts pulling out the bigger guns, hmmm.

The thing is... when he got me the first time, he did it by playing the long game. I liked him but wasn't really interested in starting something just yet (hectic work-life plus wasn't sure if I was over another ex), and he spent months just hanging around, being friendly, being chatty, occasionally signing off with kisses, getting closer, getting closer... The man has patience.

You know . . . having written that . . . it makes me wonder what these guys were like as kids . . . were they the type that were always pushing the boundaries and limits with their parents?? I have no idea of what the answer is to that question.

Hmm, interesting! Yeah, I wonder. Pretty sure mine had a messed-up childhood in some ways, too... I read an interview with Steven Carter saying that CP issues often come from the CP's relationship with their parents as kids. And my ex's mother... well she's lovely, but she's a whole other post. If we get back together I'll be on here posting 'Heeeeeelp!' in the Family forums, I'm pretty sure!

The breakup with CPs is especially hard because they break it off not because they're NOT into you, but because they're TOO into you. It's all bass ackwards with a CP!!

Exactly - it just does not make sense the way we understand things.

That's one of the main reasons I'm so glad for the Internet after this breakup, and finding out about CP behaviour from places like this! It is such a head-spinning bizarre experience, and none of my friends or family seems to have experienced anything quite like it. I'd heard of commitmentphobia before, but I thought it was fancy psychobabble talk for 'doesn't want to settle down', and not wanting to settle down seems reasonable enough. I'd never encountered or heard of anything like this. The first time I heard actual CP behaviour described online, it was someone just giving a summary of how these people act and saying "THEY ARE NOT NORMAL!" Oh that was good to hear!

It sounds odd to say, but it was such a relief to start reading other people describing this weird horrible experience happening to them as well - and I realised it wasn't just me, and I wasn't going crazy. Ha, now I'm thinking we totally do need some support group! So glad for places like LS

I've read lots of the Carter and Sokol books on CP too, and some other material, and it IS helpful to have it put into words as to what's going on. Like you, I believe it could have been alot worse but it really rattled my brain because it was a first encounter with someone like this and they're so bass ackwards!! I'm new to the single world having been divorced 3 years ago after a LT marriage. On the other hand, my CP ex-bf has never been married and I don't know if he's experienced a "real" live together situation so . . . we came together from VASTLY different starting points!!

The longest-term relationship I've had was a 5-year living-together one - we were engaged but thankfully never got married. My ex has actually had more 1-year-plus relationships than I have, which is a bit odd in terms of CP behaviour, I think? Then again... they never got to the really serious point until the last one, which was getting there but had other problems too that it sounds like would've sunk it regardless of his CP issues, and then me. And when he got there with me... look what happened.

One of my friends asked if it was actually helping me to try to analyse his behaviour, rather than stopping me moving on. But I think it really does help, when CP behaviour is so downright strange - it helps to realise that you're not the only one who's had this hit them, that the weirdness came from the CP rather than you or anything bad about the relationship. And when they're being all mixed-signals-madness after the breakup, it really helps to know where they're coming from so you can protect yourself. Also, it helps to know that it is mixed-signals-madness and not just you going crazy!

Take extra good care of yourself and keep your chin up. It will get easier and easier. I promise!!

You too! I think it is getting a bit easier - I feel like I have a bit more control over the situation now, which definitely helps. Other things that have been helping: nachos, lots of bad TV, long walks in the fields with my dad's dog, and making a huge multi-coloured sign saying 'IT'S NOT YOU!' to hang on my bedroom mirror, for every time I start off on the post-breakup if-only-I'd-said... path to madness!

Edited January 14, 2010 by Catseye8

January 14, 2010

Hey everyone, Just been reading this thread about CPs and I wanted to get a bit more advice on my break up as there has been contact from the ex in a weird way...(I posted about the break up on here a couple of weeks ago)...we broke up almost 3 months ago and were together for two years (lived together for just over a year). We were happy but he ended it suddenly as he said he loved me but wasn't ready to settle down and he knew I was, blah blah blah. It was awful, we both cried and when we said goodbye, we told each other how much we loved each other. I moved out, left my job, moved back to my parents and we went NC more or less immediately. I deleted his number, email, my facebook, everything.

After all this time, he contacted my best friend last week. He found her on facebook (they aren't friends on there so he searched for her) and sent her a message saying that he knew he had to leave me to live my life but that he was having a bad time and had had a crap xmas & new year and wondered how I was doing! She told him that I am OK as far as she knows and that if he wants to know anything about me, then he should contact me himself.

He replied saying that he wasn't contacting me because he would only be doing it for his own benefit (?) as things aren't very good for him and also, he still loves me! What?! She didn't reply to that.

I think he is being very selfish. He must have realised she'd tell me what he said??! I'm so cross because I have been doing so well and getting on with my own life, new job etc and then he goes and says that and gets me thinking about him again. I just can't imagine what he is thinking. It's not fair! Any thoughts??!

January 14, 2010

Hi Tasha,

Oooh, what a weaselly move there, saying all that to your friend. I'm sure he knew she'd tell you about it, and you're right, it is really selfish of him. Although, it looks to me like he knows damn well it's selfish and that's why he's doing this complicated double-step here to stop you calling him on it - he acknowledges he'd only be contacting you for his own benefit, and he contacts your friend rather than you so he can claim it wasn't meant to get back to you! Sounds like your friend handled it really well - good for her, telling him to ask you himself.

(Mine told me by email last week that he'd been feeling really down over New Year, too. Are these guys reading from a manual?! In his case I was kind of worried, because he's been suffering from depression and I've had a really bad experience with a depressed ex in the past, omg why is he telling me he's unhappy is he okay - on the other hand, I thought "well, you wouldn't have been spending New Year alone and miserable if you hadn't broken up with me, would you now.")

It sounds like your ex is putting out feelers. You went NC, and now for all he knows you're out partying with a troop of male models every night. He wants you to be thinking about him and feeling sowwy for him, and maybe he does want you to phone up and go "Gosh, I've missed you too! How's it going? Should we give this another shot?" But... if he doesn't even want to take responsibility for getting in touch with you, he's unlikely to do anything but dither and hurt you if you do do that.

January 14, 2010

Hi Catseye,

Yeah that's what I thought, it's so cowardly of him. I really wish he hadn't said he loves me still, it's so out of order. It's like he's saying his feelings haven't changed about me but he is standing by his decision. Grrrr!

I think your ex and mine are feeling sorry for themselves and want sympathy. It must be worse if they are depressed anyway, but honestly, it just messes with your head doesn't it! I just don't understand why someone wouldn't want to be with me if they are so miserable without me and supposedly love me!!

I do wonder if my ex is waiting for me to contact him, if he is, he is going to have a very long wait! I would love to get back together and make everything great again but it was all down to him that we ended and I feel that if he really wants to give it another try then he has to contact me himself. It sounds childish but I gave up so much for him (moved to a new town away from friends, family, started a new job, etc) and then the night he ended it, I had to give it all up and go home and start my life again. I think this may be why he has made contact in this way as he is probably feeling a bit guilty about it all now and can't face me himself!

I think you are right - if he can't even contact me himself, he would only hurt me again at the moment.

This stuff is so hard isn't it.

January 14, 2010

Yeah, it is so, so hard. I feel like I'm going slightly mad, having to deal with all the 'omg, I miss him' stuff vs. the 'you bastard for doing this to me!' stuff, and then cope with all his weirdness and mixed signals on top of that.

I've been saying for a while that my ex's behaviour only makes sense if Mixed Messages is an international competitive sport, and he's trying to get onto the Olympic team. Sounds like your ex is another one for Team Great Britain too!

I just don't understand why someone wouldn't want to be with me if they are so miserable without me and supposedly love me!!

Doesn't make sense to me either. But, the reason it doesn't make sense to us is that we're thinking straight. They, for whatever reason, are off on Planet Weird, and communication lines with Planet Weird are always a bit patchy. I read your original breakup thread and it sounds like your ex is a bit of a mess too - saying he thought he'd eventually cheat on you and breaking down crying about it is a bit odd, to be honest. Maybe he needs to grow up a bit, maybe he needs to talk to someone about his daddy issues (one of my friends said re: my ex, that what the world really needs is some kind of Ghostbusters-esque counselling squad, and you could just send 'em in to all these messed-up men) - at any rate, he's messed up, and messed up men act in messed up ways. Hence, mixed signals.

He probably is waiting to see if you contact him, but you're exactly right - he needs to do a lot more than put out Facebook feelers if he wants anything from you. And it's not at all childish to resent him for all that you gave up in order to be with him! He should feel guilty.

January 14, 2010

Yeah my ex is definitely one for Team Great Britain too! hehe!

Thank you for reading my original thread, it is all a bit odd isn't it. I guess I just have to accept that he is a bit messed up and I can't make sense of him and his actions as most likely, he can't make sense of them himself. I definitely think he has some growing up to do yet and whilst he is the way he is, he is no good for me (I wish I could just think that all the time and not be bothered about him!)

I'm glad you agree, he's got to make much more of an effort with me if he ever does want me in his life. I hope he is feeling guilty!

January 14, 2010

I haven't, but I'm combing through the archives now!

Yeah, in my ex's case it's sort of like a harem of approval - 'I'm not with these people any more, but loooooook, they still like me!' These aren't women he's strung along or messed around, which has to make it easier for him to maintain that. That said... I know there's only one ex in there he didn't actually want to lose (she broke up with him), and he pined for her for three years. So at least... if he's not over me today, he's probably not going to be over me by next week either! That is comforting to know. *sniffle*

I do not plan to end up as part of the harem. Either I'm in his life on my terms, or I'm gone. Friendship is not the runner-up prize.

Exactly, being part of a harem of exes just doesn't cut it!! I frequented the baggagereclaim website immediately post-breakup and it really got me fired up in that whole perspective. So . . . when he resurfaced the first time, live and in person, after 5 weeks NC, my pump was primed with tidbits from that website and I said with agitation, "I am NOT going to be some fallback girl or demoted to friend or FWBs." He looked at me with this puzzled look and had no idea of what I was talking about. At one point he said, "Maybe its a Mars Venus thing." There are a few articles on baggagereclaim about Mars/Veunus and I snapped, "Mars Venus is just an excuse for men to blow hot and cold" and he shrugged his shoulders and responded, "I dunno?? Maybe it's me." I said, "Not MAYBE its you, it IS you . . . .one minute you're blowing hot saying xxxxxx and in the very next sentence you're blowing cold saying yyyyyyyyy and you sabotage a perfectly good relationship based on your 'gut' . . . yada yada yada" I give him credit because he sat there for 2 hours, really listened, took responsibility and never once tried to turn the tables on me except when he said something really bizarre to me which was, "You're hiding." I said, "Whaaaaaat???" He said, "You're holding back and you're not telling me everything. You're hiding." Excuuuuuuse me!! Talk about a classic case of projection!!! There's one for the textbooks!!

My guy told me once that one of his deepest fears was ending up alone for the rest of his life. Maybe that's why he actually did get to the stage of 'I'm a mess, I need help'? (Or maybe I should've taken that as a warning, because hmmm, why was he so worried that might happen?) I think he honestly knew he had a problem with the CP stuff, but also believed a) it wasn't that bad a problem and b) he was over it in the relationship with me. He actually apologised about this during the breakup, saying "I'm sorry, I knew I should have had more time to fix myself before getting involved with someone, but I was greedy and selfish and I wanted you and I thought it would be okay." Um yes it WAS greedy and selfish... sigh!

To me this says, he knew he had a problem, wanted a relationship with you and thought he could overcome it in his relationship with you. It's like the person with a fear of flying that really wants to travel and buys a ticket to get on that plane. They can live in the fantasy of "this time I'm really going to do it, I'm going to get on that plane and take that trip that I've always wanted" . . . but as the date draws closer and closer . . . their anxiety level rises higher and higher . . . until when it comes time to actually get on that plane and fly . . . they just cut and run and eventually when their mind settles . . . they think . . . next time I'll do it. You know, as I think of it, I think my guy saying during the breakup, "I need to break the cycle" meant that he thought he needed to cut and run and find a NEW relationship where he would engage in such a way so as to "break the cycle." There's no logic in it because using the same analogy, you've still gotta get on the plane and experience the flight whether it be United or American Airlines to get to and enjoy your destination.

Clearly what we need is a support group for victims of Hurricane CP!

Absolutely!! One thing I've gained from this expereince is I now know the warning signs of the storm, and I will be careful not to dive in with another "Hurricane CP." It's becoming disentangled from this one that is posing some difficulty . . . although not near at the level it was immediately post breakup! I know I have the power to completely disengage and cut it off completely . . . but I still have feelings for him . . . and this resurfacing is making it difficult. I wish they could just breakup and move on like a normal person so as not to force the dumpee to enforce NC to the attempts at reconnection coming from them!

That was actually his explanation too when I called him on it - "It was just a distraction!" Uh, a distraction from what, me? "No, not you! I was just worried because I knew I wasn't ready to move in with you and you'd be really angry with me if I backed out again and that would mess things up!" So... you... did this as an attempt to not mess it up? Oh, good one.

He did it in an attempt to disconnect and distract himself from the seriousness of the relationship with you. I suspect it's more like this (subconsciously), "'It was just a distraction' to disconnect from my scary attachment to you so as to alleviate my anxiety and convince myself I'm not attached (see, I'm looking online, I'm flirting online, I'm not attached, I'm not attahced, I'm not attached) and therefore not 'ready to move in with you' . . . because (probably unconsciously rather than subconsciously) if you really get to know me, for sure you'll reject me, and I just can't deal with the hurt."

You know, I even had my CP ex-bf say to me once out of the blue, "I'm detaching from you." It was a Sunday night, a night when he normally spent the night, and so I assumed he would. I said, "You're not spending the night??????" He said, "No, I'm emotionally detaching from you." I was flabbergasted. Nothing was wrong, there was no fight, there was no prelude, and I said, "Whaaaatttt????? We really need to talk about this." He said, "I'm just feeling awkward because I might be moving." And then right on the heels of this in the next breath he's trying to set up all these times to get together, looking for reassurance that we'll be together, etc. and I was cool, quiet and distant toward him, after all, I'd just been iced!! The next time we got together I said, "Look, I can deal with it if you need your space, just tell me, but emotionally detaching from me??!! . . . I just can't deal with that because in order to do that, you have to look for things you don't like about me, and I just can't deal with that!!" He said, "So you'd rather I say I need my space" and I responded, "Yes, I can deal with that." And then, on the heels of this conversation he wanted to spend even more time with me and became even closer. At the time I didn't understand it, but I do now!!

Yes - it does seem to be getting somewhere! But even that insight into a CP mind was just so freaky and terrifying. One of the things he said, in the context of living together and why his behaviour had been so uncharacteristically weird and selfish recently - and he really wasn't ever selfish with his time around me before -: "I need to work out why doing all the things that are normal in an adult relationship suddenly feels like giving parts of myself away, and I know that's not right and I need to work out why I think that way." You whaaaaaaat? I know that his CP issues aren't coming from me, but, ouch

Carter and Sokol (1998) indicate regarding issues of self:

#1 Issue of the Self: Low Self-Esteem

#2 Issue of the Self: Loss of Self

#3 Issue of the Self: Lack of Self

Carter, S. & Sokol, J. (1998). Challenge three: The courage to find and fight for self. In Getting to commitment: Overcoming the 8 greatest obstacles to lasting connection. Lanaham, MD: Rowman and Littelfield.

You are a lot stronger than me with that last line - I don't think I'd have been able to resist saying it out loud! Weird... so... it's a 'gut feeling', but he trusts his gut? He doesn't think his intuitions have ever been unreliable in the past, even though he usually operates by logic? From that line about 'breaking the cycle', he clearly knows he's got some issue somewhere... does he appreciate that it's a panic-and-run thing? Maybe he's getting there verrrrrrrrry slowwwwwwwwwly? Has he called yet?

NO, NO, NO I'm not stronger than you!!! Remember, I called him out in a BIG way over the "gut" thing during his first resurfacing. It's only in his most recent resurfacing that I was able to react in the way that I described and that's because I'm not invested in this relationship at the same level that I once was. I still have feelings for him, so, he still has the power to hurt me but nowhere near at the same level as before.

No call-back yet and I have no idea of whether I'll be getting a call from the caring nice guy, or his evil twin. So . . . I've thought about what I will say in either case . . . and including how I will react if he doesn't follow through with a call as agreed to at all . . . but . . . as I'm sure you know . . . these things often don't go as planned.

Speaking of the cut-and-run thing, one thing that did really annoy me about my break-up was that he got as far as identifying the fact that he panics and runs - and then panicked and ran by breaking up with me. But in his head, that wasn't panicking and running away! That was a perfectly rational sensible choice and 'the best thing for both of us'. Gah.

So, he identified the fact that he panics and runs . . . and then he rationalized the breakup due to this tendency . . . but he never rationalized the reason for the cutting and running in the first place. In other words, "I'm going to breakup because I cut and run." Okay, perfectly rational reason to breakup, but the question becomes, "Why do you cut and run when things are going well in the first place??" I don't think he has a logical, rational explanation for this question and within the answer lies the irrational, illogical thinking.

Yes, exactly! And it seems it's even MORE obvious with all this weird mixed-signals-Olympic-champion stuff he's done since the breakup. When I suggested we meet up to talk and he bit my head off for trying to trick him into talking about more serious stuff, and then two hours later he was sending me really friendly emails with kisses at the bottom, one of my friends said "Wow, you should ask him which one of him plans to show up to that talk."

Yeah. I feel a lot better for making that decision, I really do! I still don't know what I'll do if he contacts me again; if it's chatty irrelevant stuff I'm happy to ignore it, but if he starts pulling out the bigger guns, hmmm.

I would fully EXPECT him to pull out the bigger guns to try to draw you back in but here's the kicker, you now KNOW what you're dealing with so YOU'RE in control. You can kick back, watch the show as he tries to charm his way in with the xxx's and ooo's and say silently to yourself, "NO" and then as he turns up the volume and comes on louder and stronger you can still say, "NO" and then when he lets you know that he fully recognizes his problem you can say, well mayb. . . on second thought, "NO," and then when he demonstrates that he fully recognizes his problem and is commited to change . . . . and then when he demonstrates that he fully recognizes his problem, is commited to change, and has demonstrated concrete change . . . . The point is, you can let him back in at whatever level is comfortable for you but remember, the less evolved he is, the greater the risk for you!! And if he gives up trying at some level that you weren't willing to accept, so be it. You don't want him in that form anyway. And keep this in mind because it is VERY important, he may never evolve to a level where he can engage in a healthy relationship so whatever you do, don't stop living your life outside of being a spectator in watching and waiting for him!! You have many other experiences in life just waiting to be explored so don't let those pass you by.

The thing is... when he got me the first time, he did it by playing the long game. I liked him but wasn't really interested in starting something just yet (hectic work-life plus wasn't sure if I was over another ex), and he spent months just hanging around, being friendly, being chatty, occasionally signing off with kisses, getting closer, getting closer... The man has patience.

This is pretty typical!! They come on like gang busters and are "all in" in hot pursuit in the beginning because they're safe, as long as the partner isn't "all in." Once the partner is "all in" well "(gulp) this feels too deep and I'm drowning in real emotions and feelings and there are real expectations of me, I'm too submerged, I MUST ressurect my evil twin so as to detach, manage expectations down, and disconnect so I can swim to the surface and breathe again!!

(side note: Likely there are people reading this thread and thinking "What in God's name are these women DOING remaining attached in any way to these craaaazy men. Remove them once and for all from your life and place their memory way back in the archives of your mind!!" at least this is what most of my friends say. If they only knew . . . there is another side to the coin that we've seen that is so shiny bright . . . but . . . most unfortunately, the coin keeps on flipping and may never stop!!)

That's one of the main reasons I'm so glad for the Internet after this breakup, and finding out about CP behaviour from places like this! It is such a head-spinning bizarre experience, and none of my friends or family seems to have experienced anything quite like it. I'd heard of commitmentphobia before, but I thought it was fancy psychobabble talk for 'doesn't want to settle down', and not wanting to settle down seems reasonable enough. I'd never encountered or heard of anything like this. The first time I heard actual CP behaviour described online, it was someone just giving a summary of how these people act and saying "THEY ARE NOT NORMAL!" Oh that was good to hear!

It sounds odd to say, but it was such a relief to start reading other people describing this weird horrible experience happening to them as well - and I realised it wasn't just me, and I wasn't going crazy. Ha, now I'm thinking we totally do need some support group! So glad for places like LS

Ohhhhhh I know!! It's such a weird mind boggling experience, it is so bass ackwards, especially when you have nothing in your life experience to relate it to and neither do your friend. It's like a life saver to find others who have been or are going through it and can relate. The light bulb goes on and you realize, "I'm not nuts!! He's nuts!! And it's nuts because it's all bass ackwards!!"

One of my friends asked if it was actually helping me to try to analyse his behaviour, rather than stopping me moving on. But I think it really does help, when CP behaviour is so downright strange - it helps to realise that you're not the only one who's had this hit them, that the weirdness came from the CP rather than you or anything bad about the relationship. And when they're being all mixed-signals-madness after the breakup, it really helps to know where they're coming from so you can protect yourself. Also, it helps to know that it is mixed-signals-madness and not just you going crazy!

I think it can be helpful in the early stages to analyze and process what's happened, especially since with CP, the behavior is so bizarre. It helps to gain awareness and come to fully understand and KNOW that IT'S NOT YOU!! And interacting with others that have experience with this is helpful in gaining strength and getting your bearings. But then there comes a time, after you know what you need to know in understanding it, to move away from analyzing it, and toward moving on from it. You know better than anyone else what you need to do for yourself at any given time in order to get through this.

For a time, and after I'd processed it almost fully (LS was a BIG help with this), I needed to get away from it all and get it out of my head in order to "let goooooooooo and move oooooooon" (as some well-meaning friends have said), so I stopped participating in LS because it brought my focus back to the relationship. Every resurface has brought me back to LS and I've gotten some excellent advice and wonderful support and I try to contribute to others while here at LS also. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is DO whatever YOU need to do to get throughthis!! And if it's analyzing it for the time being, so be it!! If that's what gives you strength, do it!! I'm here on the LS board right now, because I need support, and I thank you for all the support you've given me!! And I'm also trying to give back what I am receiving.

You too! I think it is getting a bit easier - I feel like I have a bit more control over the situation now, which definitely helps. Other things that have been helping: nachos, lots of bad TV, long walks in the fields with my dad's dog, and making a huge multi-coloured sign saying 'IT'S NOT YOU!' to hang on my bedroom mirror, for every time I start off on the post-breakup if-only-I'd-said... path to madness!

I KNOW you have more control over the situation now as well as greater self control!! I think it's great that you've started a thread for new breakups centered on "progress!!" It's important to look at yourself and see all the progress you've made and will continue to make. You're amazingly strong!!!

January 15, 2010

Tick -tock -tick -tock and the clock is now almost past Thursday. "Mid-week" in my book is Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday." Since CP ex-bf was too tired to talk about what's happening with us when I returned his call on Sunday, and suggested he wanted to talk about it mid-week, and agreed to call mid-week, I'd say the deadline passed tonight on Thursday. In the past and during the relationship, he was always good about following through on calls, call backs, and has never once stood me up (although he has cancelled plans due to a freak out a couple of times). When he tells me he is going to call I fully expect him to call. I'm wondering whether this is limit testing behavior, an attempt to manage my expectations down, due to total disregard or due to a freak out. Perhaps the attentive good guy has exhausted himself due to anxiety and the evil twin has emerged to gain a sense of control. No matter what the motivation, since I planned to set a boundary and talk about my expectations when he called, how long should I give him to make the call before going NC and no longer accepting his call? My deadline for accepting his call was going to be tonight, but someone suggested it's an overreaction and that I should give it till Sunday, which is a week. What do you think is reasonable??

No call by (insert date) means NC going in either direction.

Thanks in advance. I'm not objective enough to be reasonable about setting a end date.

I swear, he's beginning to take up far too much space in my mind again since his holiday resurface. I should have slapped a "do not enter" sign on the door, bolted the door shut and never let him in again. But he was soooooooooo charming, the good twin was on his BEST behavior to worm his way back in with me, and now he's lurking about much too much in my mind again. What a FOOL I was!! And I KNOW better than to fall for this nonsense!! I think mine not only read the manual, I think he's the CP guru who wrote the manual!!

January 15, 2010

Tick -tock -tick -tock and the clock is now almost past Thursday. "Mid-week" in my book is Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday." Since CP ex-bf was too tired to talk about what's happening with us when I returned his call on Sunday, and suggested he wanted to talk about it mid-week, and agreed to call mid-week, I'd say the deadline passed tonight on Thursday. In the past and during the relationship, he was always good about following through on calls, call backs, and has never once stood me up (although he has cancelled plans due to a freak out a couple of times). When he tells me he is going to call I fully expect him to call. I'm wondering whether this is limit testing behavior, an attempt to manage my expectations down, due to total disregard or due to a freak out. Perhaps the attentive good guy has exhausted himself due to anxiety and the evil twin has emerged to gain a sense of control. No matter what the motivation, since I planned to set a boundary and talk about my expectations when he called, how long should I give him to make the call before going NC and no longer accepting his call? My deadline for accepting his call was going to be tonight, but someone suggested it's an overreaction and that I should give it till Sunday, which is a week. What do you think is reasonable??

I'd give it till Sunday (and fully expect to get the CP revisionism spin if he does call at the weekend - "But, we agreed by the end of the week!"). But yeah, 'mid-week' is before Friday by my definition too. How frustrating! Much support going your way.

You could always wait till he does call and then tell him you're 'too tired' to discuss things now...

January 15, 2010

except when he said something really bizarre to me which was, "You're hiding." I said, "Whaaaaaat???" He said, "You're holding back and you're not telling me everything. You're hiding." Excuuuuuuse me!! Talk about a classic case of projection!!! There's one for the textbooks!!

Ahaha! It's like he worked out enough to realise that one person in the room was holding back... and then... didn't quite get to the next stage. I sometimes wonder how these guys got this far in life so blind to their own minds and hearts, and even their own actions.

It's like the person with a fear of flying that really wants to travel and buys a ticket to get on that plane. They can live in the fantasy of "this time I'm really going to do it, I'm going to get on that plane and take that trip that I've always wanted" . . . but as the date draws closer and closer . . . their anxiety level rises higher and higher . . . until when it comes time to actually get on that plane and fly . . . they just cut and run and eventually when their mind settles . . . they think . . . next time I'll do it. You know, as I think of it, I think my guy saying during the breakup, "I need to break the cycle" meant that he thought he needed to cut and run and find a NEW relationship where he would engage in such a way so as to "break the cycle." There's no logic in it because using the same analogy, you've still gotta get on the plane and experience the flight whether it be United or American Airlines to get to and enjoy your destination.

Yes! And from our perspective, it's as if we're the pilots, and the ground crew's done all the checks, the plane's fuelled up with everyone aboard and everything's good and we're just about to go... and suddenly our co-pilot collapses to the ground and goes "OMG, I can't go up in a plane! What if it gets hit by lightning or falls into the sea or something? It's a big heavy metal object! It can't fly!" And on one hand, you're seeing a panic attack and realising that phobias aren't rational, oh, maybe he went through some bad flying experience in the past... and on the other hand you're thinking "You went through flight training school! You begged to get assigned to this flight! We're all ready to go! What did you think was going to happen?"

I wish they could just breakup and move on like a normal person so as not to force the dumpee to enforce NC to the attempts at reconnection coming from them!

And doubly difficult - they can break up like normal people do, sometimes, when it's not a CP freakout! I know mine's broken up with a girlfriend normally before and not put her through this wringer... and before this experience, I would've said that was all I needed to know to be confident he was a grown man who could handle breakups. Wroooooong.

He did it in an attempt to disconnect and distract himself from the seriousness of the relationship with you. I suspect it's more like this (subconsciously), "'It was just a distraction' to disconnect from my scary attachment to you so as to alleviate my anxiety and convince myself I'm not attached (see, I'm looking online, I'm flirting online, I'm not attached, I'm not attahced, I'm not attached) and therefore not 'ready to move in with you' . . . because (probably unconsciously rather than subconsciously) if you really get to know me, for sure you'll reject me, and I just can't deal with the hurt."

Yeah, I think that's it exactly. And he understands... maybe 50% of it, in bits and pieces, from what he's said.

Another thing that was really disorienting and weird about the "I'm not ready to live together yet" line is that the line in itself is perfectly reasonable - hell, I said it to him earlier in the relationship! But he'd use it for the last-minute freakouts where it just didn't seem to fit. I remember saying "Look, saying you're not ready is for when you make reasonable decisions about what you want, it's for when you're feeling apprehensive about it. But this is total terror, and I just don't get how it could be that scary when you were fine with it a week ago - 'not ready' is not the same as 'terrified'!" And he'd just keep repeating "It's because I'm not ready yet," as if he was reading from the only script he knew.

I started calling him on this stuff towards the end of the relationship, when he swore he'd start working on it and get to the bottom of why he 'panicked and ran away' (his words, even!). And he'd keep coming up with explanations that I think he even believed - "I'm worried about living with you because I once started going out with someone I already shared a house with, and then that relationship went wrong, so I'm worried about that happening again!" And I was saying, "no, that's not it. That would make people nervous, not totally terrified. I think there's something else going on here." Hmmm... well, he did always say that he really appreciated having a girlfriend who'd call him on his bull****... I suppose that just got too close to home!

You know, I even had my CP ex-bf say to me once out of the blue, "I'm detaching from you." It was a Sunday night, a night when he normally spent the night, and so I assumed he would. I said, "You're not spending the night??????" He said, "No, I'm emotionally detaching from you." I was flabbergasted. Nothing was wrong, there was no fight, there was no prelude, and I said, "Whaaaatttt????? We really need to talk about this." He said, "I'm just feeling awkward because I might be moving." And then right on the heels of this in the next breath he's trying to set up all these times to get together, looking for reassurance that we'll be together, etc. and I was cool, quiet and distant toward him, after all, I'd just been iced!! The next time we got together I said, "Look, I can deal with it if you need your space, just tell me, but emotionally detaching from me??!! . . . I just can't deal with that because in order to do that, you have to look for things you don't like about me, and I just can't deal with that!!" He said, "So you'd rather I say I need my space" and I responded, "Yes, I can deal with that." And then, on the heels of this conversation he wanted to spend even more time with me and became even closer. At the time I didn't understand it, but I do now!!

I had a version of that exact same thing! "I need my space!" followed by him arranging it so we were spending all our time together followed by "I need my spaaaaaaaaaace, we're spending all our time together!"

Carter and Sokol (1998) indicate regarding issues of self:

#1 Issue of the Self: Low Self-Esteem
#2 Issue of the Self: Loss of Self
#3 Issue of the Self: Lack of Self

Carter, S. & Sokol, J. (1998). Challenge three: The courage to find and fight for self. In Getting to commitment: Overcoming the 8 greatest obstacles to lasting connection. Lanaham, MD: Rowman and Littelfield.

Ahahaha, fantastic! Thank you! My God, it's like every weird thing they do that you think is just so bizarre there's no way it could be explained... turns out they're just reading straight from the big CP manual. (Which I am beginning to believe they all have copies of, and possibly also secret group meetings to discuss tactics from. "Quick! Everyone! To page 83, "Running Away And Then Acting All Wistful!")

I would fully EXPECT him to pull out the bigger guns to try to draw you back in but here's the kicker, you now KNOW what you're dealing with so YOU'RE in control. You can kick back, watch the show as he tries to charm his way in with the xxx's and ooo's and say silently to yourself, "NO" and then as he turns up the volume and comes on louder and stronger you can still say, "NO" and then when he lets you know that he fully recognizes his problem you can say, well mayb. . . on second thought, "NO," and then when he demonstrates that he fully recognizes his problem and is commited to change . . . . and then when he demonstrates that he fully recognizes his problem, is commited to change, and has demonstrated concrete change . . . . The point is, you can let him back in at whatever level is comfortable for you but remember, the less evolved he is, the greater the risk for you!! And if he gives up trying at some level that you weren't willing to accept, so be it. You don't want him in that form anyway. And keep this in mind because it is VERY important, he may never evolve to a level where he can engage in a healthy relationship so whatever you do, don't stop living your life outside of being a spectator in watching and waiting for him!! You have many other experiences in life just waiting to be explored so don't let those pass you by.

Yep, indeed. And if he never calls or contacts me again (I think unlikely, but possible), then after all this I'll know to just read that as a sign that he's incapable of a relationship in which I don't go running after him in a situation like this... and that isn't the kind of relationship I'm ever going to settle for.

This might sound weird but I'm also trying to anticipate possible tactics of his! Just to get my defences up. I know he's got a situation coming up that might end up in really upsetting bad news for him, and if he turns to me for sympathy then... well, uh, I don't know what I'd do. Trying to brace myself for that just in case.

I was telling one of my friends that I'm still kind of worried he'll turn up on my doorstep when I'm having a really woe-is-me day, and I'll just take him back no questions asked, and she suggested I make a contract with myself: if I can't be sure I'll say "no", then I can at least make sure I don't say "yes" either. So, if he resurfaces and I feel myself wavering, I tell him "Let me think about this, and I'll get back to you tomorrow." And then I phone as many friends as I can get hold of!

(side note: Likely there are people reading this thread and thinking "What in God's name are these women DOING remaining attached in any way to these craaaazy men. Remove them once and for all from your life and place their memory way back in the archives of your mind!!" at least this is what most of my friends say. If they only knew . . . there is another side to the coin that we've seen that is so shiny bright . . . but . . . most unfortunately, the coin keeps on flipping and may never stop!!)

LOL, yes! And the problem is that the coin really does have that bright shiny side. When these men fall in love with us, I really do believe they're not faking it... they're totally genuine about falling in love, totally genuine about wanting to be with us, totally genuine about getting close. What we're seeing isn't an act. It's just that we don't see the whole picture, either - the big cloud of "panic freakout TOO CLOSE RUN!" that's gathering overhead.

One of my friends said "This man clearly doesn't love you! You should find a decent man who'll fall head over heels for you and treat you like he's the luckiest man alive to be with you!" And I said "Yeah, I did find one... and then he pulled this." I think she thinks I'm delusional, but no, these men are just weird.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is DO whatever YOU need to do to get throughthis!! And if it's analyzing it for the time being, so be it!! If that's what gives you strength, do it!! I'm here on the LS board right now, because I need support, and I thank you for all the support you've given me!! And I'm also trying to give back what I am receiving.

Your support has been absolutely amazing here! It's so great to hear from someone who's going through this weird behaviour too and still has her head on straight about it. (Well, I know he's messing with your head recently, but you're still in a much more stable place about it than I am!)

I KNOW you have more control over the situation now as well as greater self control!! I think it's great that you've started a thread for new breakups centered on "progress!!" It's important to look at yourself and see all the progress you've made and will continue to make. You're amazingly strong!!!

I feel so much better about things now than I did at the beginning of this, even though I still feel awful and miss him in so many ways too. But even my perspective on this has changed so much.

Before... I was totally confused about why he sabotaged and distanced, totally confused about why he ran, totally confused about what I'd done to cause it, totally confused about whether the breakup was as mixed-message-ish as I thought it was or whether that was wishful thinking, totally confused about why he was acting so mixed-message-ish since then or whether that was just normal breakup behaviour I hadn't seen before, and pretty sure he could easily be the partner I wanted but a lot less sure he'd ever try to come back.

Now... I get why he sabotaged, distanced and ran (as much as we can ever 'get' what goes on in these twisted minds). I know it was him, not me. I'm totally sure that the breakup had all the mixed messages I think it did, and that he's been throwing mixed messages at me since - because committing to letting me go is almost as scary as committing to staying. And as for chances of a future, well, that's flipped right round too... I'm pretty sure he'll try to come back in some form at some point, but a lot less sure he'll be able to do all the work he needs to do in order to be the partner I want.

In a way, I'm glad that he sent me the snappy email that finally made me get mad at him! I spent several weeks walking on eggshells worrying about what he'd do or what he'd think or whether I'd drive him away for good.... and then he crossed a line, and I stamped on the eggshells. And oh, hey, suddenly he's sending me kisses and reminding me of the good times. But it's going to take a bit more than that!

(I still do have hope for a future with him, though, even though I feel a bit pathetic to hope for it. He does realise he has an issue with this stuff, he does think it's an issue he wants to get rid of, and he is going to counselling, so that's got to be good... but on the other hand, that mind is so, so tangled. I don't know.)

Not coping, after breakup with CP man

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