Why is there such a lack of understanding towards BSs?

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie, yes, Alberoni makes some very valid points regarding altruistic versus selfish reasons for denying oneself true love.

 

But I guarantee you, he did not speak, nor interview many BSs when he furnished his opinions.

 

It it NOT the development of strong, romantic feelings for another that ultimately crushes the spirit. That hurts the ego.

 

It is the lying and deception two people must engage in to continue in secrecy the clandestine relationship, that crushes the BSs spirit.

 

The lying and deception, done in an effort to protect the unkowing spouse and family, is the very thing that destroys it, destroys all trust and respect for the WS, IMO. The majority of BSs will agree, that is ten times harder to overcome the deception and secrecy, than the fact that your spouse developed romantic feelings for another.

 

The deception protects the WS from the emotional fallout from their actions, NOT THE SPOUSE OR THE FAMILY.

 

And their is nothing good or true or altruistic about that.

 

Well written post, Spark, I agree with you on this. Which is why I immediately told my (now ex) SO of MM. I have always put honesty very high in all my love relationships.

 

My MM feels he is protecting his family, his kids so well as his wife. I believe that he is teaching his sons to have mistresses and his daughters to become BSs or OW. Even if his EMR is not out in the open, this is the underlying current in the family.

[silverplanets]

And I get this. Who wants to think the AP made a decision based on love? It is so much more romantic to think they stayed out of obligation.

 

More romantic yes, and definately less painfull to deal with ...

 

But what did you think of him during and after the affair? Did you have to convince yourself she "settled." That you were the better choice? Kinder? Smarter? Stronger? More attentive?

I knew him before and he was an ok guy - worked out and a "real man" if you know what I mean. Was he kinder/smarter/stronger than me ... more aggressive I would say (and that's not necessarily a bad thing). I was married at that time and only knew them as friends - I never thought anything else of it

 

When I was single and after I started seeing her ... I mostly thought about her and not him but if I did think of him I actually just thought he didn't care about her ... she was able to spend all nights of the week and many weekends with me .. and her story of him just not caring seemed entirely true ..

 

After .. I had no feelings (or thoughts) for him .. I was alternating angry/grieving over her but him, no, no real thoughts on him. He was very aggressive and attentive all of a sudden to keep her busy, but I presume that's just to be expected. I never thought of him as an enemy (although I do think he viewed me as such) .. I knew that she needed to go with what was best for her.

[Devil Inside]

As I see it nothing is as simple or as black and white as it is sometimes portrayed on the boards. People stay with who they stay with for so many reasons...security, the kids, love, obligations, etc......

 

For anyone to assume they have another persons situation figured out because of their label (BS, OW/OM, WS) is just taking a guess.

 

I am glad to see this discussion has turned into a bash fest.

[Samantha0905]

I, on purpose, specified that I was talking about serial cheaters... If a man constantly cheat on his W... he doesn't love her... and probably doesn't love any of his OWs..

 

In the case where the A was short-term or a ONS.. then yes... I would believe that he still loves his W very much...

 

There are tons of reasons why a spouse cheats.. but in the end.. all the reasons are the same for all...

 

How about someone who has had a long term affair with one person? You're assuming that person does not love their spouse at all or if, once discovered, the marriage could not be worked on, continue and flourish?

 

In other words all of us, WS, BS and OW are human and all of us make human mistakes

 

True.

 

As I see it nothing is as simple or as black and white as it is sometimes portrayed on the boards. People stay with who they stay with for so many reasons...security, the kids, love, obligations, etc......

 

For anyone to assume they have another persons situation figured out because of their label (BS, OW/OM, WS) is just taking a guess.

 

I am glad to see this discussion has turned into a bash fest.

 

Yes, every situation is unique.

 

I think assuming anyone "settled" is really insulting.

 

I do agree with whoever posted about all the things the OW/OM has heard from their MP. I don't automatically assume it's all been said to intentionally deceive the person. A MP who is having an affair is one very confused individual. They may very well think they mean what they are saying when they say it. If the affair has not been discovered yet, however, it's a little easier to say it and think you mean it. Once discovered and having to face the actual dissolution of their marriage, they may start to understand just how important (or not) saving the marriage is to them. If the BS gives them the opportunity to try to save the marriage, often that route is taken for a variety of reasons.

 

We're all unique and special individuals -- who make really bad mistakes at times. This includes everyone -- BS, OM, OW.........

[wheelwright]

Spark you always give great comments, and offer a vary balanced view of what it feels like to be a successfully reconciling BS. Your lack of acrimony does you credit.

 

But I'm not sure the OW/OM you are questioning on LS really do on balance kick the BSs in the teeth.

 

I see a lot of understanding and compassion from both sides, and have given and received in this spirit. (I was a MOW involved with a MM).

 

And when they do kick? They have usually experienced some additional heartache beyond being dumped post DDay, from the BS. And from their point of view, it was a loveless s***ty M and they can't understand the hurt and anger of the BS.

 

I do not see my xMOM's BS as causing any of my heartache. Quite the opposite. It was caused by him and me, with the marriages as the scenic backdrop.

 

In my weaker moments, I wished that if she didn't love him she would let him go free. That was the worst thought I ever had about her.

 

Now, my respect for and ideas about marriage have changed. During the A I did not see myself as wronging her at all. Now I do. And him too.

 

Not all us OW externalise the damage of an A.

 

I wonder if you are sensitive to this because of the OW in your situation. In my situation, they in their M completely closed all communication with me, and I understand that, though not their thought processes. I think the OW in some situations do the same - close down so that others have to work things out for themselves, and them the same.

 

Having said that, I tend to ignore all the bashing posts; can't see the point of it!

 

Hope you are feeling OK yourself.

[White Flower]

more like bitterness when they understand they're pretty much just something to be used for his entertainment, while the wife is the one who legitimately recognized as his partner.

Hmm, I need to think about this one.

 

There is bitterness but not because I felt used. Well, there are some days I do feel that way but the bitterness comes from the fact that HE believed so much that he was leaving that he made me believe him. I'm bitter about that.

 

The statement about being legitimately recognized throws me again. Does he only stay because it is all legitimate? THAT is what ticks me off. And it should tick his W off too!

 

Does any BW really want him to stay JUST because she is the 'legitimate' one? Not me, I'd rather be chosen because he loves me. And I do believe for the record that many MM go back for love. Not all, but some.

[LakesideDream]

Lifestyle is a big deal to, especially with people ah.... past their 20's. It's very expensive to seperate a long term marriage into two individual lives. It's hard work too. It usually takes years (there are exceptions, like me, but that's rare) to get it all figured out.

 

It's a very rare person... and one that is deeply in love that can drop everything and start over with someone else at 40-50-60 years of age. If you find someone to make that kind of comittment, I bet you have found someone to spend the rest of your life with.

 

Hard to go from a very comfortable to lifestyle to struggling again... especially if your thought "struggling" was decades behind you.

[NoIDidn't]

I think assuming anyone "settled" is really insulting.

 

 

It is MEANT to be insulting.

 

It is generally used by the OP, NOT by the married partners, at the conclusion of an affair.

 

Said to the MP, its meant to make them feel like they have chosen the "lesser" partner.

 

Said to the BS, its meant to make them feel like they ARE the "lesser" partner.

 

The OP saying it obviously feels like they are the superior choice.

 

Unfortunately for the OP, even the MP sees through this very direct form of manipulation and most thinking people are insulted by it. Who wants to be told that they are "settling" for their spouse? No one. So it doesn't achieve its intended goal. It stays an insult instead of something to motivate the MP/WS to leave the marriage.

[jennie-jennie]

It is MEANT to be insulting.

 

It is generally used by the OP, NOT by the married partners, at the conclusion of an affair.

 

Said to the MP, its meant to make them feel like they have chosen the "lesser" partner.

 

Said to the BS, its meant to make them feel like they ARE the "lesser" partner.

 

The OP saying it obviously feels like they are the superior choice.

 

Unfortunately for the OP, even the MP sees through this very direct form of manipulation and most thinking people are insulted by it. Who wants to be told that they are "settling" for their spouse? No one. So it doesn't achieve its intended goal. It stays an insult instead of something to motivate the MP/WS to leave the marriage.

 

I have used the word "settling" and I never meant it to be an insult. I never meant that I was in any way superior to my MM's wife. In many ways I KNOW she is superior to me. We are two ordinary women, so it is bound to be the case, that I am "superior" in some areas, and she in some - nothing strange about that.

 

When I use the word "settle", I talk about having found a new lasting love, perhaps even a new level of love, and going back to the marriage for other reasons than love.

[DrIndigo]

I try not to assume what I don't know about anyone. But that being said....

 

I know only what my personal experience is. It includes hearing MM tell me on numerous occassions that he had decided a girl like me didn't exist and that the kind of passion we share together was nothing but a fantasy and so he married someone without all that. In his own words, he settled for her long before he ever met me. That's not to say he didn't/doesn't love her. He did, and he does, though now it's a platonic kind of love.

 

After D-Day, he left her, asked for a separation, and was open about the fact that he intended to keep seeing me. That fell apart because he felt so responsible for her pain that every time she called and asked him to see her, he agreed. Each of those meetings turned into an opportunity for her to cry, express her anger with him, and generally tell him that he was an awful person who had ruined her life. Eventually, that took its toll, both on him and on our relationship. After several months, he agreed that she could move back in and they could work on their marriage. He told me it was "the right thing to do," though not what he wanted. He told me that if love were enough, he'd still be with me. And then we did not talk for awhile. I considered it completely over.

 

But it wasn't long before he called and asked to meet me for coffee. Then we started iming nearly every day, him continually telling me that he had made a mistake in settling for a life he no longer wants. Ever since, he's been trying to find a way to leave the marriage without feeling guilty. Recently, he started IC to help him get there.

 

I am also under the impression, based on things he has said to me and things I have observed, that his W may love him but that mostly she does not want to be in her late 30s and divorced. She doesn't want to give up her lifestyle, and I think she recognizes that MM is attractive, helpful, kind, and exactly the kind of guy her friends all ooh and ahh about. I don't believe that about all BSs, but I do believe it about her. I realize I could be wrong - I realize she could be madly in love with him. I realize it might devastate her if he leaves. Maybe it's to make myself feel better that I choose to believe the former rather than the latter. And maybe it's to make myself better that when I think about the latter possibility, I respond: If she loves him, she should have acted like it before he started seeing me and he wouldn't have had an A to begin with. When I met MM, he was hurt, and she had done it. Before I was ever in love with him, I could see that this kind, attractive man had been incredibly hurt by his W's indifference, and I have hated her for it.

[jennie-jennie]

I know only what my personal experience is. It includes hearing MM tell me on numerous occassions that he had decided a girl like me didn't exist and that the kind of passion we share together was nothing but a fantasy and so he married someone without all that. In his own words, he settled for her long before he ever met me. That's not to say he didn't/doesn't love her. He did, and he does, though now it's a platonic kind of love.

 

Very interesting way of putting it. This is true about my MM as well. He had doubts when he agreed to marry his wife. He realized there was a part of him that there was no room for in this marriage, that would never get satisfied, and that he would have to live without that, yet he went on and got married. So, in fact, yes, he did settle already at this point.

[jennie-jennie]

These are completely my own thoughts. I have not discussed it with my MM. But perhaps his wife once settled for him as well. She had gone through a bad marriage with following divorce when she met MM. She was 30, wanted a marriage and kids. MM is a good guy. He would do. ???

 

One thing my MM missed throughout his marriage is the feeling that his wife desired him. I can't help but think that maybe she settled.

[RedDevil66]

I try not to assume what I don't know about anyone. But that being said....

 

I know only what my personal experience is. It includes hearing MM tell me on numerous occassions that he had decided a girl like me didn't exist and that the kind of passion we share together was nothing but a fantasy and so he married someone without all that. In his own words, he settled for her long before he ever met me. That's not to say he didn't/doesn't love her. He did, and he does, though now it's a platonic kind of love.

 

After D-Day, he left her, asked for a separation, and was open about the fact that he intended to keep seeing me. That fell apart because he felt so responsible for her pain that every time she called and asked him to see her, he agreed. Each of those meetings turned into an opportunity for her to cry, express her anger with him, and generally tell him that he was an awful person who had ruined her life. Eventually, that took its toll, both on him and on our relationship. After several months, he agreed that she could move back in and they could work on their marriage. He told me it was "the right thing to do," though not what he wanted. He told me that if love were enough, he'd still be with me. And then we did not talk for awhile. I considered it completely over.

 

But it wasn't long before he called and asked to meet me for coffee. Then we started iming nearly every day, him continually telling me that he had made a mistake in settling for a life he no longer wants. Ever since, he's been trying to find a way to leave the marriage without feeling guilty. Recently, he started IC to help him get there.

 

I am also under the impression, based on things he has said to me and things I have observed, that his W may love him but that mostly she does not want to be in her late 30s and divorced. She doesn't want to give up her lifestyle, and I think she recognizes that MM is attractive, helpful, kind, and exactly the kind of guy her friends all ooh and ahh about. I don't believe that about all BSs, but I do believe it about her. I realize I could be wrong - I realize she could be madly in love with him. I realize it might devastate her if he leaves. Maybe it's to make myself feel better that I choose to believe the former rather than the latter. And maybe it's to make myself better that when I think about the latter possibility, I respond: If she loves him, she should have acted like it before he started seeing me and he wouldn't have had an A to begin with. When I met MM, he was hurt, and she had done it. Before I was ever in love with him, I could see that this kind, attractive man had been incredibly hurt by his W's indifference, and I have hated her for it.

 

 

Listen, this is classis caking eating behaviour.

Of course he loves his wife. NO MAN would take any women back if he didn't love her.

What happened is their separation made them open up some communication they were lacking and he realized he didn't want to leave her.

Then they probably went back to their old way of life (no therapy) and he got bored again so he called you.

 

You have a long heartbreaking road ahead of you

[greengoddess]

Listen, this is classis caking eating behaviour.

Of course he loves his wife. NO MAN would take any women back if he didn't love her.

What happened is their separation made them open up some communication they were lacking and he realized he didn't want to leave her.

Then they probably went back to their old way of life (no therapy) and he got bored again so he called you.

 

You have a long heartbreaking road ahead of you

 

 

I agree. I also think her mm has not been honest with her about what occured after dday. She said he left her and then she said he agreed to allow her to move back in. So she left the house and he stayed in it? Then the scenario is probably more like she had the dday and grabbed her stuff and left him and then he pleaded and begged until she agreed to move back home and work on the marriage.

 

These men lie. You know that. If you read the infidelity boards you will see that it is very rare a woman will ask him to stay after the dday. The first reaction is to grab his stuff and throw it out the front door along with the groveling mm.

[Spark1111]

Okay....These scenarios could very well be the truth of your situations, of many EMR situations.

 

In my scenario, he certainly CONVINCED her that he had to try to piece his marriage together for the sake of his kids, the family, our history, his finances.

 

He missed her, wanted to be with her, have patience with him, give him time....blah, blah, blah

 

How noble! What a good guy!

 

(I was intercepting his texts to her after DDay, and not mentioning it to anyone..)

 

Meanwhile, he is here begging to reconcile and begging me not to tell anyone what I had discovered, a 1.5 year EMR. Fat chance.

 

I immediately realized the level of his confusion, uncertainty. What a mess!

 

I kept throwing him out. Did she know this? No, not all.

 

Did she know of his profession of love towards me, I made a mistake, it is you that I want, I forgot how much you loved me, I love you, please forgive me?

 

Of course not. How would she know this? Like a BS, all she knew is what he WAS TELLING HER.

 

Which unfortunately, was not the truth of the situation.

 

Why? To let her down gently.

 

Just wondering if she ever suspected that he was now being less than truthful with her?

 

If at first, he was protecting his wife and family from the affair, why is it such a stretch that he was now protecting his OW from his true feelings towards his spouse?

[reboot]

This will not be popular with certain people here. and will win me no friends among them, but I'm going to say it anyway. I was raised as a man, around other men, family and friends. I've observed them, and myself, in relationships and marriages, girlfriends, wives, all my life. I understand them. I'm convinced women don't really understand us any more than we really understand them. I say all that to say this.

 

Most men, if they truly love a woman, will find a way to be with them, no matter what the cost.

 

You think we're these cold, calculating, logical beasts who will put everything before love, but, for most of us, that's just not true.

[silktricks]

This will not be popular with certain people here. and will win me no friends among them, but I'm going to say it anyway. I was raised as a man, around other men, family and friends. I've observed them, and myself, in relationships and marriages, girlfriends, wives, all my life. I understand them. I'm convinced women don't really understand us any more than we really understand them. I say all that to say this.

 

Most men, if they truly love a woman, will find a way to be with them, no matter what the cost.

 

You think we're these cold, calculating, logical beasts who will put everything before love, but, for most of us, that's just not true.

 

Not once have I thought of my husband as cold or calculating - or willing to put everything (or even anything) before love.

 

Thanks for verifying its not true for other men either...

[PhoenixRise]

 

Meanwhile, he is here begging to reconcile and begging me not to tell anyone what I had discovered, a 1.5 year EMR. Fat chance.

 

I immediately realized the level of his confusion, uncertainty. What a mess!

 

I kept throwing him out. Did she know this? No, not all.

 

Did she know of his profession of love towards me, I made a mistake, it is you that I want, I forgot how much you loved me, I love you, please forgive me?

 

Of course not. How would she know this? Like a BS, all she knew is what he WAS TELLING HER.

 

Which unfortunately, was not the truth of the situation.

 

Why? To let her down gently.

 

Just wondering if she ever suspected that he was now being less than truthful with her?

 

If at first, he was protecting his wife and family from the affair, why is it such a stretch that he was now protecting his OW from his true feelings towards his spouse?

 

 

DITTO

 

In my case while he was telling her that he had to stay married for the child, finances, extended family, the cat, etc...I packed MY things and left him.

 

 

There was no way in HELL he was ever going to tell her the level of begging ME he was doing. The "I love you, the affair was a mistake, it was never going anywhere, I lost sight of the most important person in my life You. etc, blah, blah, blah.

 

So I am really not surprised if she thinks he settled. She has no idea the mountains he moved and the hoops he jumped through (actions not words) to get me back. AND it is not in her interest to look at it too deeply.

[jennie-jennie]

Okay....These scenarios could very well be the truth of your situations, of many EMR situations.

 

In my scenario, he certainly CONVINCED her that he had to try to piece his marriage together for the sake of his kids, the family, our history, his finances.

 

He missed her, wanted to be with her, have patience with him, give him time....blah, blah, blah

 

How noble! What a good guy!

 

(I was intercepting his texts to her after DDay, and not mentioning it to anyone..)

 

Meanwhile, he is here begging to reconcile and begging me not to tell anyone what I had discovered, a 1.5 year EMR. Fat chance.

 

I immediately realized the level of his confusion, uncertainty. What a mess!

 

I kept throwing him out. Did she know this? No, not all.

 

Did she know of his profession of love towards me, I made a mistake, it is you that I want, I forgot how much you loved me, I love you, please forgive me?

 

Of course not. How would she know this? Like a BS, all she knew is what he WAS TELLING HER.

 

Which unfortunately, was not the truth of the situation.

 

Why? To let her down gently.

 

Just wondering if she ever suspected that he was now being less than truthful with her?

 

If at first, he was protecting his wife and family from the affair, why is it such a stretch that he was now protecting his OW from his true feelings towards his spouse?

 

My MM has attempted several times during the years to end our relationship, and he never once tried to let me down gently. The harsh truth that he loved his BS and wanted to make the marriage work that is what I got.

 

The letting down gently has to do with the vow made in my opinion. The feeling of going bad on a promise once made.

[jennie-jennie]

This will not be popular with certain people here. and will win me no friends among them, but I'm going to say it anyway. I was raised as a man, around other men, family and friends. I've observed them, and myself, in relationships and marriages, girlfriends, wives, all my life. I understand them. I'm convinced women don't really understand us any more than we really understand them. I say all that to say this.

 

Most men, if they truly love a woman, will find a way to be with them, no matter what the cost.

 

You think we're these cold, calculating, logical beasts who will put everything before love, but, for most of us, that's just not true.

 

An extramarital relationship is one way of being with a woman you love.

[reboot]

An extramarital relationship is one way of being with a woman you love.

 

I don't disagree with that.

 

My point was mainly, in my opinion, men who say they won't leave because of the kids, the finances, the cat, or whatever, are mostly lying.

[greengoddess]

My MM has attempted several times during the years to end our relationship, and he never once tried to let me down gently. The harsh truth that he loved his BS and wanted to make the marriage work that is what I got.

 

The letting down gently has to do with the vow made in my opinion. The feeling of going bad on a promise once made.

 

Then why are you still with him? Why would you keep going back?

[RedDevil66]

This will not be popular with certain people here. and will win me no friends among them, but I'm going to say it anyway. I was raised as a man, around other men, family and friends. I've observed them, and myself, in relationships and marriages, girlfriends, wives, all my life. I understand them. I'm convinced women don't really understand us any more than we really understand them. I say all that to say this.

 

Most men, if they truly love a woman, will find a way to be with them, no matter what the cost.

 

You think we're these cold, calculating, logical beasts who will put everything before love, but, for most of us, that's just not true.

 

There is no reason others will not like what you said, it's true!

In my many years on this planet and in a few long term relationships and my trying to understand men, I agree. Men will move mountains when he loves a woman.

The ONLY way a man will not let a women know he truly loves her or wants to be with her is if his pride/ego outrun his love. In which case he will never tell her in fear of losing his pride

[Spark1111]

Jennie, if you are getting the truth, than IMO, you may be in the rare situation of having a relationship with a truthful MM.

 

In the majority of occasions, I believe (and have read) that the MP about to embark on the affair, needs to CONVINCE themselves that their spouse does not care about them, is not in love with them, no longer desires them, blah, blah blah.

 

They first distance themselves from the marital relationship rather than work to improve it.

 

So from this viewpoint, as expressed by the WS to the AP, the AP is almost lulled into a false sense of "If she/he doesn't truly care about this wonderful MM/MW, why don't they just let them go so I can love them MORE and WE can be together and live happily ever after."

 

OW/OM only hear one side of the MP's perspective, and since this IS the person they have fallen in love with and now trust, they believe it as the GOSPEL TRUTH.

 

I believe in most circumstances, the truth and perception of any situation lies somewhere in the middle.

 

Just as I know he had true feelings for his OW, despite what he NOW tries to tell me or minimize to me, I feel it should not be such a stretch for the OW to realize he had true feelings for me, and I for him.

 

It is HARDER to stay in a loveless marriage knowing your spouse had greater romantic feelings for someone else, no matter if you have kids, bills, and history together.

 

It IS SOUL DESTROYING, and I can't imagine many women with the strength to survive that type of relationship long-term. It would be similiar to the BS throwing them out, they return to the OW and over time, sees him pining away for the wife he threw away. Complete role-reversal.

 

Would we then say the OW sttled for the married man? I don't think so. And I do not think it would be fair to any of the parties involved.

[jennie-jennie]

Then why are you still with him? Why would you keep going back?

 

I never left him, and he never left me, he just made futile attempts to "do the right thing".