Why is there such a lack of understanding towards BSs?

[jennie-jennie]

JJ It seems to me that you are saying you want what marriage is supposed to entail (exclusivity, the building a life, the expectation of long term, etc) but you just don't want to call it marriage.

 

I hope you answer because I don't understand where you are coming from. Men and women leave marriages every day. The divorce rate here in the US is above 50%. Most people who want to leave their spouse do so (even with young children, assets to divide, feelings that will be hurt, etc) and don't see marriage as a hostage situation that they can't escape from.

 

Phoenix, you are correct that I do want what marriage is supposed to entail - the exclusivity, the building a life, the expectation of long term, etc - it is the promise, the vow of something I believe is impossible to promise that I object against.

 

You can not promise to love someone for the rest of your life. You can say that you love them today and feel like it will last a lifetime, but you have no way of knowing if that will be the case or not. That is not within your power to promise.

 

And yes, many men and women do divorce, but there are those men (and women) out there who cannot bring themselves to break a promise once given. Who go instead behind the back of their spouse and have an affair. Who feel like their choice has been taken away from them when they made that promise. Who can not bring themselves to leave the spouse they promised to be with for the rest of their life and still can not keep themselves away from their new love either.

 

But Jennie, to me, it does not say much about your belief in the sustainability of long-term intimacy.

 

Do you then believe men feel trapped by the institution of marriage?

 

Or that long-term intimacy cannot be sustained in marriage?

 

Spark, I do very much believe in the sustainability of long term intimacy. I do believe that long term intimacy can be sustained in a marriage or other long term relationship. But sometimes in life we move on to a new relationship, and depending on culture and morals that is so much harder for some people to do if they have given that vow.

 

I do know that at least my MM feels trapped by the institution of marriage. It is the vows that keep him there.

 

He is a man of his word. He promised to care and provide for his wife for the rest of her life. He is a man who keeps his promises. He is a good man. He never would have thought he would ever be having an affair. He thought he would stay faithful and married to his wife for the rest of his life. Now he is finding himself having to reassess so much of what he thought was true, even down to the core of his identity.

 

My MM says he will never marry again, because next time (if there will be one) he wants to feel that he is in the relationship of his own free will and not because he promised to.

[fooled once]

If he can not bring himself to leave me and go back and love her, the love for her must not be enough.

 

By the same token, he must not love you enough to leave his marriage.

[PhoenixRise]

 

And yes, many men and women do divorce, but there are those men (and women) out there who cannot bring themselves to break a promise once given. Who go instead behind the back of their spouse and have an affair. Who feel like their choice has been taken away from them when they made that promise. Who can not bring themselves to leave the spouse they promised to be with for the rest of their life and still can not keep themselves away from their new love either.

 

he wants to feel that he is in the relationship of his own free will and not because he promised to.

 

 

I wish more WS posted here because what you posted has raised some questions for me.

 

Does your MM not think that he is ALREADY breaking a promise to his wife by having an affair with you?

 

If he doesn't consider this a promise broken why not?

 

Does he think the promise to stay IN a marriage is more significant than the promise to stay faithful in the marriage?

 

Is he more concerned that other people (wife, family, friends) will KNOW he has broken a promise -by getting a divorce, than he is about actively breaking a promise everyday- by having an affair?

[fooled once]

Also,

 

aren't most OW 'guessing' how the BS feels/thinks/reacts?

 

I mean, unless they are THERE, in the house when DDay happens, they are only either guessing or believing what they are being fed by the cheater.

 

I would go so far to say that I am betting many OW want to believe that the cheater is only staying with the wife because of pity, 'cheaper to keep her', not in love with her because that is what THEY need to believe; they need to believe that the cheater loves 'them' best and only out of a sense of duty are staying.

 

It goes back to the whole foundation that the affair was built on lies to the spouse --- unless a cheater told his wife "Hey wife, I am going to start up something with someone else", which I highly doubt.

 

When I was in an affair, I of course bought all the lies/lines of "I love you", "She will fall apart if I leave her", "I am going to leave her by xxxx"....

 

It wasn't until I started backing away that I realized how utterly stupid and naive I was to believe all the crap.

 

I still firmly believe, if the cheater loves the OW enough, he would leave his marriage. I believe the reason he stays is because either it is easier and it really isn't that bad at home (it very well MAY not be because he doesn't love her, but he isn't necessarily unhappy) and/or because he does love his wife and it took almost losing her to make him realize that.

 

I just think, going by what I read on here, that so many OW jump to conclusions on how the wife is thinking (ex "she must be an idiot to not see that he is cheating", or the famous "she knows but is refusing to face it").

 

OW do NOT know unless they are in daily contact with the wife, listening to her as she works through the aftermath of Dday. OW are only taking guesses on the wife's emotions and I don't truly think the OW can be objective enough because they are too close to the situation.

[jennie-jennie]

By the same token, he must not love you enough to leave his marriage.

 

No, because to me there is only the pull of love, to the wife there are many other pulls. So whereas he would be missing enough love for her, he would be missing enough commitment to me, not love.

[jennie-jennie]

I wish more WS posted here because what you posted has raised some questions for me.

 

Does your MM not think that he is ALREADY breaking a promise to his wife by having an affair with you?

 

If he doesn't consider this a promise broken why not?

 

Does he think the promise to stay IN a marriage is more significant than the promise to stay faithful in the marriage?

 

Is he more concerned that other people (wife, family, friends) will KNOW he has broken a promise -by getting a divorce, than he is about actively breaking a promise everyday- by having an affair?

 

I too wish that more WS would post here.

 

My MM is a man who speaks much of his feelings and who discusses his inner life with me. Since we are long distance, we do talk a lot, and plenty about our relationship, so I do get insight into where he is at. But these are difficult questions you are raising, especially since I would never have chosen the path he has taken myself.

 

My MM struggled very much our first year with guilt and trying to end the relationship. At one point he finally gave in and realized that he was overpowered. He accepted that our relationship was there to stay.

 

So the best he can do in terms of keeping his promise is staying in the marriage although he is having the extramarital relationship. On occasions he has still tried "to do the right thing", like our period of NC when he was trying to work on his marriage.

 

Concerning other people knowing, that has been very important to him. Phoenix, I will tell you, since I feel you have a sincere will to understand, what I have not posted here on LS because it is still only words not action. But since we are trying to get into a WS' mind, I will tell you.

 

My MM's mindset has changed since our period of NC last fall. Divorce is often on his mind now. For the first time in our relationship he is saying that perhaps it is not as bad as he thought, perhaps his kids could be okay with separated parents. He told me the other day that (because what other people would think has bothered him a lot, he has always been the good guy remember) he could live without the approval of his parents-in-law and his brothers and sisters. He said his brothers and sisters don't really know him.

 

He says that the pull to leave the marriage is increasing, and he needs to feel that pull. If I push him he resists, if I let him be he feels the pull get stronger.

 

He tells me there is a process going on inside him, it might look like nothing is happening but that is not the truth, he is changing from the inside out. He says that the first two or three years he always thought that he could end our relationship and go back to how it used to be in his marriage, that he could never have ended the marriage then because he did not know if our relationship was just the excitement of something new or if it was more than that.

 

I hope I have managed to show you a piece of the WS' mindset, Phoenix. I hope other BSs will respect this for what it is, his reality, the way he perceives the world. You can scream manipulation all you want (not you, Phoenix), but I know him, I know this is what he is going through, even if it might very well lead to nothing in the terms of him leaving his marriage.

Edited January 21, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[jennie-jennie]

One more thing, Phoenix, my MM has also decided that he is going to tell his wife about the EMR. He has not decided when, but he will tell her. He says he has to tell her whether he stays or leaves, because he can not live with her for the rest of his life if honesty is not the basis of their relationship.

 

This is completely different from what he used to think. He used to think what she does not know, will not hurt her, that he could keep this secret for the rest of his life.

[jennie-jennie]

As you all know by now, I am fascinated by Francesco Alberoni's work. He talks about "the point of no return", which I feel could be where OW and BS could agree upon that if the WS returns to the marriage at this point in time, the BS would know that the WS has not settled for them, yet the OW would know that the love for them was true.

 

"Let's take an example. Let's say that I've fallen in love with a man who says he loves me too, but then doesn't do anything to make me a real part of his life. He keeps his work separate from our relationship. When he travels, he doesn't travel with me. I feel he wants to confine me to the role of the mistress that he comes to see every so often - a silent lover who he loves on the sly. He continues to act very much like his old self and changes nothing in his relationship with his wife or with others; everything about his life remains intact. I'm supposed to be his hidden refuge, even if that means limiting my daily existence to a waiting game, to seeing if he is going to show up today or not, to accepting that he will come when he wants and is able to - in keeping with the mysterious rules of propriety that he's set for himself. But I'm getting fed up now; I've decided that this isn't acceptable, this isn't living. For another woman it might be all right, for that was how I myself used to feel. It isn't good enough anymore. I want a real life now. Sometimes I ask him if I can come with him on his business trip. My question is a test. If he refuses, that means for me that he is forcing me back into a corner where I refuse to stay, where life is impossible.

 

For him, the problem is the reverse. There is a delicate balance to his system of relationships at present, which he has had to adjust and set right more than once. Any abrupt shift now might make things explode. He needs time to reorganize everything gradually, to change jobs, to provide economically for who knows how many people, and to make new arrangements for the care of his children. His new love gives him the strength, courage, and confidence to tackle all that, to change his life plan. Thanks to this love, he [/i]is slowly[/i] making changes in himself and in his life. It is really not all that long before he finds and starts a new job, moves to a new city, acquires some new daily habits, and - very importantly - begins to make explanations to his wife and children. It's taking a while, it's a gradual process, and yet soon he will be free and "available." All he needs in the meantime is love, and the certainties that love brings with it. For this reason, he is frightened by what I am demanding of him - this decisive, sharp break with his past is a tremendous amount to ask. He is supposed to throw himself totally into this new central reality of ours and risk losing everything that he loves and that he wants to gradually incorporate. If he indeed loses all this, because he's been rash and hasty, our central new reality stands to become an empty shell. In that case, he would seem half the man he was to me, he would feel mutilated and uncomplete; he would be wracked by both a sense of nostalgia and guilt. He cannot abandon a part of himself like that without ceasing to be himself.

 

Thus both of us have reached a point of no return. Each of us is asking other to give up something essential - that our new love makes seem so essential as to ideally incorporate it. When we stop to think about it, however, this request is terrible, unspeakable cruel, and dehumanizing. Because by asking the other to give up an essential part of him- or herself - to give up what makes him or her fully capable of loving, we are asking that person to destroy his or her humanity, his or her fundamental human essence."

 

(Falling in Love and Loving, 1979)

[HappyAtLast]

I wish more WS posted here because what you posted has raised some questions for me.

 

Does your MM not think that he is ALREADY breaking a promise to his wife by having an affair with you?

 

If he doesn't consider this a promise broken why not?

 

Does he think the promise to stay IN a marriage is more significant than the promise to stay faithful in the marriage?

 

Is he more concerned that other people (wife, family, friends) will KNOW he has broken a promise -by getting a divorce, than he is about actively breaking a promise everyday- by having an affair?

 

Speaking as a former unfaithful spouse - yes, of course I was breaking a promise to my wife.

 

With all due respect to Jennie-Jennie, the justifications that her married partner uses to remain married whilst still in an affair are quite self-serving.

[Spark1111]

And for me, it is not that he developed feelings for another....it was that he lied to my face every day to act on those feelings.

 

Whatever he told his OW to make him appear as some noble family man, whether it be his children (young adults), money ( I make my own) or whatever....was nothing more than self-serving bunk!

 

If he portrayed me as the little wifey who would not survive on her own....bunk!

 

If he truly cared what friends and family thought, he would have never had an affair. More bunk! He was just ashamed he GOT CAUGHT!

 

And how condescending to both me and her to keep those secrets and spin those tall tales! Truly self-serving.

 

Okay, so the promise of fidelity was broken the first time they were physical. It hurts, but I could have overcome that with a remorseful confession on his part. S**T happens in life and I am a realist!

 

But to lie to me for 18 months?????

 

That showed such cowardly disrespect that it blows my mind.

 

I wouldn't do that to my worst enemy, let alone the woman I swore to love, honor and cherish til death do us part.

 

If anyone thought he settled for me and I settled for him, they have NO CLUE as to what went on here for the next 18 months.

[Brokenlady]

Divorce is often on his mind now. For the first time in our relationship he is saying that perhaps it is not as bad as he thought, perhaps his kids could be okay with separated parents. He told me the other day that (because what other people would think has bothered him a lot, he has always been the good guy remember) he could live without the approval of his parents-in-law and his brothers and sisters. He said his brothers and sisters don't really know him.

 

He says that the pull to leave the marriage is increasing, and he needs to feel that pull. If I push him he resists, if I let him be he feels the pull get stronger.

 

He tells me there is a process going on inside him, it might look like nothing is happening but that is not the truth, he is changing from the inside out. He says that the first two or three years he always thought that he could end our relationship and go back to how it used to be in his marriage, that he could never have ended the marriage then because he did not know if our relationship was just the excitement of something new or if it was more than that.

 

 

Jennie - this is classic Split-Self stuff. My xDM said the same things about 2 years into our relationship. About 3 months later, he FINALLY started IC (I'd been campaigning for it for a long time). Once he started IC, he became more clear that he needed to leave his xW and he wanted to be with me. It was about another year until he physically moved out. That was well over a year ago. And I don't know if he'll ever emotionally cut ties. All the back and forth stuff was terrible - I hope you're prepared for all that. I would take his statements as a sign that he may be soon willing to get into IC. I hope so.

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie - this is classic Split-Self stuff. My xDM said the same things about 2 years into our relationship. About 3 months later, he FINALLY started IC (I'd been campaigning for it for a long time). Once he started IC, he became more clear that he needed to leave his xW and he wanted to be with me. It was about another year until he physically moved out. That was well over a year ago. And I don't know if he'll ever emotionally cut ties. All the back and forth stuff was terrible - I hope you're prepared for all that. I would take his statements as a sign that he may be soon willing to get into IC. I hope so.

 

Thanks, Broken, it is comforting to hear from someone who has traveled the road before me, who knows what lies ahead. I am saving your post on my computer as a reminder of what might be expected.

Edited January 21, 2010 by jennie-jennie