Why is there such a lack of understanding towards BSs?

[Snowflower]

funny thing is, the OM/OW don't understand it, and berate BS's that feel the "need" to stay with their cheaters, but yet they wanted them themselves

 

doesn't matter, the OW/OM still wants a cheater, whether serial or not, yet will look down on a BS that stays.

 

the way I see it, its harder for most BS's to get away from a cheater. Some truly want their WS, why I don't know(but I won't best them for it), and some simply seem trapped....the fear of the unknown in a divorce, the kids...etc.

 

Dex, I dug back in the thread because I saw your post from a couple of days ago and then this one...which I think strikes at the core of this whole question without all the bullcr*p so thank you for writing this...

 

The BS always gets looked down on for staying...usually by the OP who also wanted the SAME MP. So why is it worse for the BS to still want to try to save the relationship? Why is only the BS considered 'broken' or 'weak' for trying to save what was supposed to be a lifetime commitment?

 

(this is just a general question to anyone here on this thread--not necessarily you, Dex-I loved what you wrote here!)

[anne1707]

There seems to be this fixed idea that the WS must be settling if they choose to stay in the marriage and that nothing can compare to relationship with the AP in the affair. If the affair was really that good and the OW/OM meant that much to the WS then they would leave the BS. The fact that so many choose to stay with the BS is because many of them love and care for the BS more than the OW/OM (inspite of their **** behaviour).

 

The BS who chooses to work on such a marriage is in fact showing incredible strength and resilience in my opinion - they are showing real love - for better or worse.

[White Flower]

There are so many things I disagree with in your post, that it's almost a waste to bother posting. You seem to want to believe :

 

1. The BS is trying to convince her WH about how bad the OP is. Whereas, among many of the people I've known, including myself, the BS felt only bad for the woman, and impressed on him the need to be straight with her. Usually, I understand that it's the WS that is busily denigrating the OP to the wife...

2. The WH will without a doubt go back to the OP. Sometimes, yes, they do, obviously. But oftentimes they do not.

3. You state that it's easier for the BS to see the OP as the pursuer. I don't agree with this. I don't think it's any easier to see your husband as someone who has so little integrity that he can be swayed by someone who comes onto him.

 

But regardless, I don't think in any case, seeing a situation the way that is possibly more comfortable, or more palatable will in the long run gain anything. Until both parties (and preferably all three) see the situation as it IS, no one can recover or heal or move on with their lives. Reality is the only thing that really works, IMO.

 

WF - normally I think of you as pretty level headed and fair, but it seems to me that you are somewhat upset over something in this thread. Your posts in this thread have in my mind confirmed much of what the thread began with - the BS is misunderstood - and basically denigrated by most OP.

You of course know how you would deal/dealt with your situation and I know how my story is unfolding. I actually agree with you on everything you said because that is YOUR stance based on YOUR experience. It is not the stance of all BS not their experience.

 

Look, I know full well that many, MANY BS know that their WS was guilty as charged and take them back because of TRUE understanding and TRUE forgiveness. I also happen to know that SOME BS try to convince their WS that the OP is the BAD influence, the pursuer, the sl*t, etc., and it is THIS kind of BS that bothers me. I'm sorry if my statement about THOSE types of BS sounded like I was generalizing ALL BS because I did not intend that.

 

More specifically, if it helps, my exMM's W definitely took the route mentioned above and it just makes me sick. He defended me and made her understand he was the pursuer but she found it necessary to make me look like the bad guy when HE is the one cheating on her!!!

 

He IS pursuing me again and it is ONLY because she has her head buried firmly back in the sand. It isn't going to work this time because you are right, no one can recover and heal and move on without reality and the truth. She can't fix what she doesn't know about and I'm not going to be a secret any more.

[White Flower]

I'm sure we can agree on this. Whatever the reason, he still cheated. But for some strange reason it is easier, most often, for the BS to believe the OP was the pursuer and his/her spouse was the victim of circumstance. This takes the blame off the WS and puts it solely on the s*** seducer of an OP.

 

If the BW can convince her H that the OW was a s***, at least in her mind, she can forgive him and move forward in the M. Most often he goes right back to banging the OW and the W thinks she's done her job of disparaging the OW in her H's head. He probably pretends to agree with his W while in the same day is apologizing profusely to his lover that his W has said these malicious things about her.

I need to apologize for this post. I should NOT have said 'most often'; that is totally unfounded. I should have said oftentimes or some times.

 

I must be projecting and for that I am sorry. This did happen in my case, although he says he defended me and made himself out to be the bad guy but I will never know since I was not a fly on the wall during that conversation.

 

Stress will make us post in extremes I guess. Time for a chill pill.

[jennie-jennie]

Just think about the WSs who frequent this board. I can immediately think of more than a handful WSs who are back in their marriages trying but not feeling that spark, that passion. Only one former WS comes to mind stating that the marriage is now good and working.

 

I would like to make a connection here to a subject on another thread: the type of affair. Forgive me for repeating a post of mine from that thread. I don't mean to start a discussion of that subject here, since I know there are LS posters who don't like to categorise affairs. I just think it is important to realize that the WS' involvement in the OW varies greatly, and with little involvement why would he be settling when he returns home?

 

"I wouldn't be surprised if that was true for most of the affairs on the OW/OM forum at least (ie having a Split Self affair).

 

Let's look at the level of emotional involvement (EI) and the duration of the affair for the different affair types:

 

Conflict Avoidance: minimal EI; brief duration

Intimacy Avoidance: minimal EI; brief duration

Sexual Addiction: EI none; brief duration

Split Self: great EI; duration 2 or more years

Exit: some EI; duration 6 months to 2 years

 

It seems likely to me that since most posting OW seem to have quite a degree of emotional involvement, the affairs they are involved in are either Self Split Affairs or Exit Affairs.

 

The BSs on Infidelity might however have experience of any of these affairs in my opinion, which might be one reason we have difficulty understanding each other."

 

Let's look at best (BO) and worst outcome (WO) for the different affairs:

 

Conflict Avoidance: BO solid marriage, WO other affairs or divorce

Intimacy Avoidance: BO solid marriage, WO other affairs or divorce

Sexual Addiction: BO family in recovery, WO damaged family and public humiliation

Split Self: BO revived marriage or divorce, WO empty shell marriage or divorce

Exit: BO resolves issues of ending marriage, WO unresolved loss

 

So perhaps a WS who can not get that spark and passion back into his marriage is a Split Self and the individuals and the marriage has not (at least not yet) recovered and they are in (or risk) "an empty shell marriage"? In my opinion that would be the only kind of affair, well I guess an exit affair that does not lead to a divorce as well, where the WS would be in risk of settling.

 

 

_____________

Edited January 19, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[Spark1111]

Jennie, in retrospect my WS had an element of all these types in his affair, with a little revenge thrown into the mix!

 

So, DDAY hits and he throws her under the bus, but I throw him under the bus. He has continued contact with her and my response is: So why are you still trying to be here??? Because I do not want you.

 

His guilt and fear caused him to knock on the door every day to come home, but I, at that point, could CARE LESS of his emotions at that time.

 

I had been betrayed and lied to!

 

He only asked one thing of me: Please don't tell anyone. HAHAHA!

 

WF, many women perhaps DO NEED to blame the OW/OM as the big bad wolf. but I didn't. I felt she too was a victim of his B###S###!

 

I have no idea what he told her, but at that moment in time, doubtful it had ANY resemblance to the truth of our situation.

 

I think he was confiding to her the most negative aspects of my "unwavering hostility." Well, yeah bud!

 

My he was certainly NOT telling her his beggings, and pleading and protestations of love, I made a mistake, I forgot how much you loved me, blah, blah, blah.

 

Why would he? And why would anyone continue to think I would settle for this very, confused and damaged man who could STILL not make up his mind when given carte blanch by me to do so?

 

Like blaming the OW/OM as the big bad wolf in the scenario, to protect one's psyche and ego, I believe it is just as limiting to spend the rest of your life believing anyone settled for their spouse.

 

Might be the truth in some situations, but definitely not all.

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie, in retrospect my WS had an element of all these types in his affair, with a little revenge thrown into the mix!

 

So, DDAY hits and he throws her under the bus, but I throw him under the bus. He has continued contact with her and my response is: So why are you still trying to be here??? Because I do not want you.

 

His guilt and fear caused him to knock on the door every day to come home, but I, at that point, could CARE LESS of his emotions at that time.

 

I had been betrayed and lied to!

 

He only asked one thing of me: Please don't tell anyone. HAHAHA!

 

I just love the phrase "the BS throws the WS under the bus"! :bunny:

[OWoman]

The BS always gets looked down on for staying...usually by the OP who also wanted the SAME MP. So why is it worse for the BS to still want to try to save the relationship? Why is only the BS considered 'broken' or 'weak' for trying to save what was supposed to be a lifetime commitment?

 

Snow, I'm guessing here, but perhaps...

 

Because the BS has been "betrayed" directly and materially by the WS, while the OW has not? Yes, she's seen him betraying SOMEONE ELSE, and can see that he is capable of betrayal, but the extension of that logic to herself doesn't necessarily follow. If he "cheated" on the BW, it's easy to cast that as HER issue rather than his. And so, while the BW is choosing someone who actively betrayed HER, the OW is merely choosing someone who has shown the capacity to betray (someone else). A lesser "crime", particularly if they demonstrate willingness to address the issues.

 

It's an argument. I'm not claiming it's flawless, or that there are not strong arguments on the other side. I'm just trying to answer the question.

[reboot]

Snow, I'm guessing here, but perhaps...

 

Because the BS has been "betrayed" directly and materially by the WS, while the OW has not? Yes, she's seen him betraying SOMEONE ELSE, and can see that he is capable of betrayal, but the extension of that logic to herself doesn't necessarily follow. If he "cheated" on the BW, it's easy to cast that as HER issue rather than his. And so, while the BW is choosing someone who actively betrayed HER, the OW is merely choosing someone who has shown the capacity to betray (someone else). A lesser "crime", particularly if they demonstrate willingness to address the issues.

 

It's an argument. I'm not claiming it's flawless, or that there are not strong arguments on the other side. I'm just trying to answer the question.

 

I'm thinking that's pretty good logic for many of these situations. Now all they have to do is throw in an "oh, he/she would NEVER do the same thing to ME"......

[dprtman09]

Dex, I dug back in the thread because I saw your post from a couple of days ago and then this one...which I think strikes at the core of this whole question without all the bullcr*p so thank you for writing this...

 

The BS always gets looked down on for staying...usually by the OP who also wanted the SAME MP. So why is it worse for the BS to still want to try to save the relationship? Why is only the BS considered 'broken' or 'weak' for trying to save what was supposed to be a lifetime commitment?

 

(this is just a general question to anyone here on this thread--not necessarily you, Dex-I loved what you wrote here!)

 

I noticed what you said here on replies to my post. Some seemed to look down on me for staying. Perhaps, some don't realize how extremely difficust it is for a BS not to say, if you want him/her, take him/her, I'm outta here! Perhaps some BS's see through the lies and deceipt to the man/woman they married and still see her hiding there. Perhaps some BS's know that they are the better partner. Maybe it's a combination of all this and more.

 

I, for one, felt more courageous standing up to my fears (of the possible end of the M) and deciding that was not where I wanted to be. Talk about a temporary bi-polar condition! I had to respect me before I could restore my respect for her. Then she had, and still has, work to do. That was and is my right as the BS.

[dprtman09]

doesn't matter, the OW/OM still wants a cheater, whether serial or not, yet will look down on a BS that stays.

 

the way I see it, its harder for most BS's to get away from a cheater. Some truly want their WS, why I don't know(but I won't best them for it), and some simply seem trapped....the fear of the unknown in a divorce, the kids...etc.

 

DM, there was a time not long ago when I would have completely agreed with you. However, the "trap" I was in was all about anger, fear, loss (of our relationship) and other negative things. The most amazing thing happened. I found myself able to become objective, though rarely. I presented myself to her and myself as a "guy".

 

What I mean is, I became generic. I presented to her, and as a result, myself, what I believed to be the true motives of the OM from the standpoint of what a "guy" wants. It made her think about what a "girl" wants. She then realized that the OM was not honestly offering what she wanted. The "trap" was the inability to get past the wrongness of what she did and my negative reactions long enough to get her to see the situation for what it was.

 

When the above began to happen, The A quickly ended.

 

I was trapped in an identity crisis. She caused it, but I had to end it.

 

If my decison would have been to chuck the M, it would have happened.

I've done it before.

[Snowflower]

Snow, I'm guessing here, but perhaps...

 

Because the BS has been "betrayed" directly and materially by the WS, while the OW has not? Yes, she's seen him betraying SOMEONE ELSE, and can see that he is capable of betrayal, but the extension of that logic to herself doesn't necessarily follow. If he "cheated" on the BW, it's easy to cast that as HER issue rather than his. And so, while the BW is choosing someone who actively betrayed HER, the OW is merely choosing someone who has shown the capacity to betray (someone else). A lesser "crime", particularly if they demonstrate willingness to address the issues.

 

It's an argument. I'm not claiming it's flawless, or that there are not strong arguments on the other side. I'm just trying to answer the question.

 

I also agree with this logic and it does explain some of the arguments or remarks I've seen here against the BS by APs and even other BS.

 

But in the end, it is completely the personal decision of the BS to stay or leave (assuming the WS has remained in the marriage and has ended the A). Why does anyone else feel they have the right to say that the BS is making the wrong decision to stay, especially if the WS is also willing to make the supreme effort to reconcile? Whose business is it anyway at that point besides that of the reconciling couple?

[dprtman09]

I need to apologize for this post. I should NOT have said 'most often'; that is totally unfounded. I should have said oftentimes or some times.

 

I must be projecting and for that I am sorry. This did happen in my case, although he says he defended me and made himself out to be the bad guy but I will never know since I was not a fly on the wall during that conversation.

 

Stress will make us post in extremes I guess. Time for a chill pill.

 

You are not as far off as you may think. As a BH, I pushed my anger on the OM for a while. Just ask the posters on my thread. However, those posters made me realize that I will never resolve the anger for the betrayal by my W unless I resolve it with her. Happily, at this point, I hve no interst in what the OM thought. His wrong was to let her come on to him. Whatever his reasons were, he associated with the wrong woman in the long run.

 

I believe that the anger toward the OP is a stage that a BS has to go through. After all, one cannot make a clear decision on matters this serious without seeing all the angles.

[dprtman09]

I also agree with this logic and it does explain some of the arguments or remarks I've seen here against the BS by APs and even other BS.

 

But in the end, it is completely the personal decision of the BS to stay or leave (assuming the WS has remained in the marriage and has ended the A). Why does anyone else feel they have the right to say that the BS is making the wrong decision to stay, especially if the WS is also willing to make the supreme effort to reconcile? Whose business is it anyway at that point besides that of the reconciling couple?

 

Keep it simple. You are 100% right. My W said the same thing in our discussions of what others may say. If our marriage was ours before, it still is. What we do with it is our business. We will listen to advice, but we are under no obligation to take it.

[dprtman09]

JJ

 

I suspect you might mean me as the former WS whose marriage is working. I think as has been said there are other former WS out there who have managed to rekindle that spark but just don't post on LS anymore. It feels to me as if most who come to LS are either the BS or the AP so we don't get a fair representation of the WS to really get a clear idea of how well or badly they might be doing after the affair.

 

My W has toyed with the idea of posting on LS to let her feelings about her A out, but she's afraid of being bashed. She sees that many people just judge her as irrevocably bad and she wants to regain her "goodness".

 

I may just let her know that you exist, that way she may decide to air out a bit.

 

I, myself, have seen a tendency toward negativity in these threads. There are a lot of angry people out there and many of them have a right to be. This is more consructive than many other ways of venting.

 

My wife's calling.

[anne1707]

When I first came to LS, there were some who did give me a very hard time. However considering how I was all over the place at that time, it was all pretty much deserved. One of those who really went for me is Dexter but posts like his were the kick up the b***side that I needed to get myself sorted one way or another. A WS may well need the bashing just as much as the support because when it comes down to it - if anybody in an affair deserves grief it is the WS. They are the ones who have been using/abusing the BS and the OW/OM

 

All in my opinion of course as a former WS

[Dexter Morgan]

When I first came to LS, there were some who did give me a very hard time. However considering how I was all over the place at that time, it was all pretty much deserved. One of those who really went for me is Dexter but posts like his were the kick up the b***side that I needed to get myself sorted one way or another. A WS may well need the bashing just as much as the support because when it comes down to it - if anybody in an affair deserves grief it is the WS. They are the ones who have been using/abusing the BS and the OW/OM

 

All in my opinion of course as a former WS

 

I will never look down upon someone staying with their WS. I understand the frustration they feel.

 

The reason I am the way I am its like I have to say to some peolple "SNAP OUT OF IT" with a V8 smack to the side of the head. Why? because I've been there and played the fool. don't want to see anyone else play one and hope what I say resonates with them.

[anne1707]

The reason I am the way I am its like I have to say to some peolple "SNAP OUT OF IT" with a V8 smack to the side of the head.

 

Certainly felt like it at times - but it did the trick

[jennie-jennie]

I'm thinking that's pretty good logic for many of these situations. Now all they have to do is throw in an "oh, he/she would NEVER do the same thing to ME"......

 

One way to protect yourself against cheating as an OW who actually "gets" her MM is to not marry him. For many men it is the binding legal contract which makes them cheat instead of move on. You don't want a situation where the exMM feels obliged to stay with you just like he did with his wife.

[reboot]

One way to protect yourself against cheating as an OW who actually "gets" her MM is to not marry him. For many men it is the binding legal contract which makes them cheat instead of move on. You don't want a situation where the exMM feels obliged to stay with you just like he did with his wife.

 

hahahahahahahaha

[jennie-jennie]

hahahahahahahaha

 

What's so funny? I am serious. I don't believe in marriage.

 

I may have been a BS prior in life when I was in long term relationships (common-law marriages), but the men I was with had the courtesy of ending the relationship with me and going off with the OW if it became serious between them. They also were always very upfront with what they had done.

 

From what I have seen during my relationship with MM, marriage breeds dishonesty. The more responsible the man is, the less willing he is to break the legal bond with his wife. Instead he goes behind her back for years and years.

[reboot]

I just find it absolutely hilarious that you suggest that the institution of marriage is the cause of cheating. That's a good one.

[jennie-jennie]

I just find it absolutely hilarious that you suggest that the institution of marriage is the cause of cheating. That's a good one.

 

No, it is not the cause of cheating, it is the cause of the long term affairs in my opinion. You misunderstood me. I guess I did not express myself clearly.

Edited January 20, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[Spark1111]

No, it is not the cause of cheating, it is the cause of the long term affairs in my opinion. You misunderstood me. I guess I did not express myself clearly.

 

But Jennie, to me, it does not say much about your belief in the sustainability of long-term intimacy.

 

Do you then believe men feel trapped by the institution of marriage?

 

Or that long-term intimacy cannot be sustained in marriage?

[PhoenixRise]

JJ It seems to me that you are saying you want what marriage is supposed to entail (exclusivity, the building a life, the expectation of long term, etc) but you just don't want to call it marriage.

 

I hope you answer because I don't understand where you are coming from. Men and women leave marriages every day. The divorce rate here in the US is above 50%. Most people who want to leave their spouse do so (even with young children, assets to divide, feelings that will be hurt, etc) and don't see marriage as a hostage situation that they can't escape from.