pureinheart Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 I get this - in some ways - but at the same time not. For example, I as a BS chose to not grieve openly, as I didn't want to expose either of us and "cause" further damage. (part of the reason I chose to post here..) so I get the need for validation of pain. But... at the same time (again speaking ONLY of personal experience) many of the OW I've known were quite open with their friends about the state of their relationship. When (if) it demolished (one instance, the man died) their grief was palpable AND openly expressed.... granted everyone in the world didn't know of their situation(s), but their close friends did, and really even if it's a brother or sister who dies, it's only your close friends who you rely on in your grief, isn't it? OK. Still somewhat confused here.. I get what O Woman is saying, been there done that, there is not quite the understanding for the OW as there is for the BS. You choose to be silent, the OW almost has to be. Link to post Share on other sites
moaningmyrtle Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 This thread, and a similar one, have provoked some interesting discussion on the nature of forgiveness and whether OW need or want it and whether BW feel that OW require forgiveness and whether they ought to forgive the OW. To my surprise there are some OW that do seem to want to be forgiven by the BW. I hope it's not a threadjack but have any OW or former OW actually asked the BW for forgiveness? Would you as an OW, consider asking for it? If so how long after the A has ended would this be? Does it make a difference whether the MM left his BW after the A ended, either to be with the OW or to make a new life without either the BW or the OW? In my case the OW told me in an e-mail that she was sorry and promised to never contact my H again. To her credit she stayed away from him for months, but after I visited her on the one occasion, she did contact him. I have never held that against her, as she would have been provoked by my visit to her. Although she told me she was sorry her later conduct towards me was not always so nice. She has never asked for forgiveness and I don't expect her to. That is a step beyond sorry that I doubt she will take. Link to post Share on other sites
silktricks Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 You choose to be silent, the OW almost has to be. See, this is what I don't/can't agree with. The OW I've known - and I know for a fact this includes my husband's former OW - absolutely discussed their situation with their friends (in some cases I was one of those friends). They neither had to be nor were they silent at the end of the affair. They had plenty of support from their friends. So, why would any input from the BS have any impact on their lives at all? Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 (edited) For me it is the lying, deceiving, gas lighting, putting my life in danger, and talking about my kids that was the ultimate. Amen!~ And another Amen.... now I know I am not perfect by any means...now I am speaking of intent, and the heart here....I have by no means done the perfect thing for my kids all of the time.....BUT, my kids are my life. I am learning how to do the right thing for my kids (they are 29 and 25), I would die for my kids and would have died back then for my kids....I did a lot of selfish things, although one thing that both of my ex's said is "I know the kids are in excellent hands with you"...meaning me....now that is quite the compliment I think given my record. What that says is that I have boundries and limitations as to what I will comprimise... Hey I've had a crazy life, can relate priddy much on any level....I know many of you may think my responses and being able to relate to so many situations could be an exaggeration, although it is not....I have a lot of stories and they are all true....the councellors that I have seen sit in amazement that I am still alive, although by Gods never ending grace, He has allowed to experience much. I have been told by every councellor to write a book...for real...and from a previous thread...yes I was a crisis pregnancy councellor for Right To Life for over 10 years....my first session was with a girl who wanted to abort her baby by drinking bleach... I love my kids and have 3 grandkids....I hear you BNB, don't jack with my kids, it is a person that comes out that is not pretty at all. God I love this forum.... Edited January 12, 2010 by pureinheart Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 See, this is what I don't/can't agree with. The OW I've known - and I know for a fact this includes my husband's former OW - absolutely discussed their situation with their friends (in some cases I was one of those friends). They neither had to be nor were they silent at the end of the affair. They had plenty of support from their friends. So, why would any input from the BS have any impact on their lives at all? Wow, see I felt embarrassed and only confided to a supervisor that I had at another company....everyone at work "knew" although could not prove anything. It was not until finding this forum that I opened up...I mean certain people knew the feelings exMM/possibly BF if he gets it right, had for each other, it was obvious...although as far as really opening up...nope I would not talk about other peoples A's or my own because I did not believe it was ok ESPECIALLY for me....I was so embarrassed.... Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 I want to add....please for anyone who reads anything I write....I really only mean how I feel about me and my actions...hey I could tell you some things I agree with that 99.9% would tell me that is wrong. Again here is my attitude/thinking because I am only resposible for me, although I can provoke another to an action they might not have normally done, if I am embarrassed about something and someone else is not, then I could be the one wrong by being embarrassed, although it is me being me and not judging someone else, it is just the way "I" see it...and nine times out of ten I am wrong...you know? I hope I am communicating this the way I want it to come out....maybe I need some coffee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 I know I'm never done ...lol....another thing to add...I know my kids are grown, although one never stops being a parent...you just graduate in most cases to grand parent...my little guys are sooooo cut and the little girl...also the "the" in the little girl statememt is not a lack of taking "ownership" by using "the" instead of "my". You know while I'm on it (the role that is), alot of people used to tell me I was too close to my kids....ya I am in my kids life and until they don't want me anymore, I am here....and I'm even bigger in my grandkids lives....my grandkids literally want to live with me...why I don't know, I'm priddy strict, but I love them with all of my heart....I know, this belongs in a different forum....I just can't help myself...lol....and this is the one and only thing that exMM/(might be BF if he gets his head on straight) and me think the same on...the kids. Link to post Share on other sites
skylarblue Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 Why are most women quicker to forgive their spouse for cheating on them than the OW who was more than likely misled to begin with? I’m not sure I’d use the word “forgive”. I wouldn’t even consider the OW relevant enough for my “forgiveness”. I look at it as why do some BW seem to have more anger towards the OW than the WH. IMO I’d think its several reasons. 1) She has a history with the H. It’ll be easier to blame a person she doesn’t know but has already painted a negative picture of than the H who she knows is a “good man”. 2) Her H is someone she loves and cares about unlike the “intruder” who has disrupted the M. 3) The H is a position to minimize his bad deeds, “defend” himself, and “win over” the W. He is also able to convey a negative picture of the OW. 4) The BW may see the OW as holding the majority of responsible like “if it wasn’t for her, he would have never cheated”. 5) The BW is able to relinquish the anger quicker for the H because they’re working on their M and he’s putting forth the effort to show love and remorse while the OW has only showed “selfishness” by engaging in the A and is undeserving of anything else. Link to post Share on other sites
Fallen Angel Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Why are most women quicker to forgive their spouse for cheating on them than the OW who was more than likely misled to begin with? I’m not sure I’d use the word “forgive”. I wouldn’t even consider the OW relevant enough for my “forgiveness”. I look at it as why do some BW seem to have more anger towards the OW than the WH. IMO I’d think its several reasons. 1) She has a history with the H. It’ll be easier to blame a person she doesn’t know but has already painted a negative picture of than the H who she knows is a “good man”. 2) Her H is someone she loves and cares about unlike the “intruder” who has disrupted the M. 3) The H is a position to minimize his bad deeds, “defend” himself, and “win over” the W. He is also able to convey a negative picture of the OW. 4) The BW may see the OW as holding the majority of responsible like “if it wasn’t for her, he would have never cheated”. 5) The BW is able to relinquish the anger quicker for the H because they’re working on their M and he’s putting forth the effort to show love and remorse while the OW has only showed “selfishness” by engaging in the A and is undeserving of anything else. Just trying to get a better understanding... 1.) Why is it that so many BS call the Other an 'intruder' as though they somehow FORCED their way in, while everyone KNOWS that is simply not the case, they were INVITED in. Granted, they were not invited in by both spouses, but never the less, they were there by invitation, not by coercion. If someone is not inclined to cheat (as so many people on this forum point out everytime the 'it could happen to anyone' line comes up..) then no amount of flirtation, offering, or opportunity will make them cheat. I have yet to read on here that any OTHER ever held their affair partner at gunpoint, forcing sex upon them against their will. 2.) I am curious as to how the WS saying bad things about their affair partner is helpful in anyway to repairing the M? I have never understood this idea. I would be MORE hurt, if I thought that my SO was risking their life with me for someone that they thought was un-worthy, or less-than. If my SO was cruel about his AP, it would make me MORE angry, in thinking that this was someone he was willing to risk me for, yet he thinks so little of her as to berate and belittle her now. Anyone have any insight in to this? Because I am at a loss in trying to understand the concept... Link to post Share on other sites
Mary3 Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 This is my summation : 1. Married Men lie to the OW from the time they start breathing... 2. They ( MM ) never have any real intention of losing out financially ie : divorce. The reason for the affair is mostly because they are bored or sexually being denied ( at least they say that ) and a kick action. They continue to lie to the OW to keep the A going...like he is getting a divorce , his wife is a b____. Ladies here please if these RATS are your husbands why are you so quick to forgive them ? 3. The OW only knows what the MM says to her . Meaning , she can't know that the BS stays up nights with the baby , that the BS really might love the H. The H only tells the OW whatever immaginary scenario will allow him to get into her pants. Rare FEW Affairs are non sexual buddy buddy so the motive is SEX for the most part. ( sex + fun ) 4. The real cure for cheating men ( even though the wives want to quickly forgive and the OW wants to quickly have a resolution of HIM AND ME or hit the highway scenario...Is for the MM to be neutured... 5. I will apologize to all wives out there for having cheating husbands. I feel your pain. I know you stay . But the REAL truth is : Your husband is a snake for the most part. You want the family held together. But keeping a cheating husband is like keeping HINI vials on the counter and hoping they don't break. 6. This was more a rant. The real problem ladies is not the Wife. The real problem is not the Other Woman. The REAL problem is the piece of work you are married to... Link to post Share on other sites
ladydesigner Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 This was more a rant. The real problem ladies is not the Wife. The real problem is not the Other Woman. The REAL problem is the piece of work you are married to... Oh A F**king Men to this statement. Why do I continue to stay married for the kids why???? Link to post Share on other sites
Mary3 Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Oh A F**king Men to this statement. Why do I continue to stay married for the kids why???? Well some women will stay for the kids . Thats akin to any other type of abuse in a marriage. This is abuse of the structure of the marriage of the worst kind Kids are more resilliant than we know. I don't think the H deserves the wife . I personally would be disgusted if I were the Wife and the H ever tried to touch me again. Link to post Share on other sites
ladydesigner Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 I personally would be disgusted if I were the Wife and the H ever tried to touch me again. I do feel this way (sorry for the TJ) We currently have HUGE problems in the intimacy department for that reason I AM DISGUSTED. I have to have a drink before sex is even attempted. Link to post Share on other sites
Mary3 Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 I do feel this way (sorry for the TJ) We currently have HUGE problems in the intimacy department for that reason I AM DISGUSTED. I have to have a drink before sex is even attempted. That would totally freak me out to have him go inside knowing he had it somewhere else in someone else... Link to post Share on other sites
Fallen Angel Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 That would totally freak me out to have him go inside knowing he had it somewhere else in someone else... Was your spouse a virgin when you married? Were you? Link to post Share on other sites
Mary3 Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Was your spouse a virgin when you married? Were you? Neither of us were....But there is a little bit of a difference. : When you are in an active marriage and faithful . Its just a huge betrayal. I just dont equate the day I lost my virginity with a husband I am married to messing around sexually with someone behind my back. I wonder what percentage of faithful wives want to just believe everything their cheating husband said to them before / during / and after they cheated on them with an Affair... I think the women cheats herself out of a quality life by putting blinders on and letting the lying husband continue to manipulate her. Link to post Share on other sites
crazycatlady Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Do you think any woman who takes back her WS to be cheating herself of a quality life, Mary? CCL Link to post Share on other sites
Fallen Angel Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Neither of us were....But there is a little bit of a difference. : When you are in an active marriage and faithful . Its just a huge betrayal. I just dont equate the day I lost my virginity with a husband I am married to messing around sexually with someone behind my back. I wonder what percentage of faithful wives want to just believe everything their cheating husband said to them before / during / and after they cheated on them with an Affair... I think the women cheats herself out of a quality life by putting blinders on and letting the lying husband continue to manipulate her. I agree that it is a huge betrayal. But I fail to see why a woman would try to 'save' her marriage if she was going to be sexually repulsed by her husband ever after. It seems such a waste to me. Better for the woman to admit that she is not willing to forgive and move forward, and that she divorce. That way, she is free to find happiness with a man who will love her beyond all else, and will be faithful to her. Link to post Share on other sites
Mary3 Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Do you think any woman who takes back her WS to be cheating herself of a quality life, Mary? CCL With all respect : He has hurt two people . If she is in denial ( this is my gut response ) and he can get her to believe he is scott free hurting two women , then what's to say he won't attempt it again if he has a wife who will forget what he did ? Married women here please reach into the heart of your soul and tell me you can lay down at night with the man who betrayed you ? Some will continue with the marriage.. . But I know if my husband had cheated ( back then when I was married ) I would have told him to leave. No if's and's or but's about it... Link to post Share on other sites
Mary3 Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 (edited) I agree that it is a huge betrayal. But I fail to see why a woman would try to 'save' her marriage if she was going to be sexually repulsed by her husband ever after. It seems such a waste to me. Better for the woman to admit that she is not willing to forgive and move forward, and that she divorce. That way, she is free to find happiness with a man who will love her beyond all else, and will be faithful to her. She is also sending a signal to her H that cheating will NOT be tolerated. Let him come visit the kids , take them to the park and remember like Tiger Woods does , as he spent xmas without his children... Let me add that visitation and Tiger seeing his kids should be a fair arrangement but if you talked to Tiger today he will tell you his life is drastically changed and he has lost his WIFE and Kids....Not to mention endorsements and his reputation. I do not feel sorry for Tiger...He flagerantly messed around....no pity ... Edited January 13, 2010 by Mary3 Link to post Share on other sites
crazycatlady Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 With all respect : He has hurt two people . If she is in denial ( this is my gut response ) and he can get her to believe he is scott free hurting two women , then what's to say he won't attempt it again if he has a wife who will forget what he did ? Married women here please reach into the heart of your soul and tell me you can lay down at night with the man who betrayed you ? Some will continue with the marriage.. . But I know if my husband had cheated ( back then when I was married ) I would have told him to leave. No if's and's or but's about it... Yes I can, yes I do, yes I will. I still wasn't sure when I first came here and started posting how I was going to handle things - they don't know I know. I was never going to kick him out over it. I love him I know he loves me. That was what was important to me. But not only can I lay down with him, I start sex just about as much he does. I desire him as much as I always have. If I didn't, I wouldn't stay, no matter what the outside reasons - kids, money etc. Marriage without passion isn't worth it. Life is too short to live resentful, angry and bitter. Not only that, but I'm going on vacation with the OW next month. I've forgiven her as well. I'll admit it was a little harder then him. It was a huge betrayal on both sides, but holding onto the pain isn't going to make me happy, getting angry wasn't going to fix things, being bitter won't change what happened. So I'm not. I let it go and instead embraced the fact that I knew he loved me and worked on the things that would bring me happiness, that would help fix things, and accepted that I can't change the past. I don't think I'm weak. I don't think H is evil. And I don't think OW is callus. **** happens. CCL Link to post Share on other sites
NoIDidn't Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Just trying to get a better understanding... 1.) Why is it that so many BS call the Other an 'intruder' as though they somehow FORCED their way in, while everyone KNOWS that is simply not the case, they were INVITED in. Granted, they were not invited in by both spouses, but never the less, they were there by invitation, not by coercion. If someone is not inclined to cheat (as so many people on this forum point out everytime the 'it could happen to anyone' line comes up..) then no amount of flirtation, offering, or opportunity will make them cheat. I have yet to read on here that any OTHER ever held their affair partner at gunpoint, forcing sex upon them against their will. Its easy to feel the way you do, because you were the one with the illegitimate invite into someone else's life. His W and family will not be happy to learn of the things that he has told you about them, because it is none of your business. And its actually NOT his right to tell you those things. There is a such thing as boundaries and he is crossing several. intruder - someone who intrudes on the privacy or property of another without permission Synonym are interloper, trespass, interfere. An OP does all of those things in someone else's marriage. Just because they don't feel that they are doing those things, doesn't make it any different to the one experiencing the behavior, or finding out about it. Link to post Share on other sites
bentnotbroken Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Its easy to feel the way you do' date=' because you were the one with the illegitimate invite into [i']someone else's[/i] life. His W and family will not be happy to learn of the things that he has told you about them, because it is none of your business. And its actually NOT his right to tell you those things. There is a such thing as boundaries and he is crossing several. intruder - someone who intrudes on the privacy or property of another without permission Synonym are interloper, trespass, interfere. An OP does all of those things in someone else's marriage. Just because they don't feel that they are doing those things, doesn't make it any different to the one experiencing the behavior, or finding out about it. Completely agree here. If the privacy of the wife hasn't been invaded(whether it is knowledge of her life, her home, or maybe even her quirks) All of this without her knowledge in a lot of the cases. I had no idea that she had been in my home. Looking at the pictures of my family. The china that my great grandmother gave me that I have on display. Sitting at the kitchen table that belonged to my grandmother. Those are all invasions. Whether he invited her or not, the choice was hers to enter all aspects of my life. He is 100% responsible for the invitation. She is 100% responsible for the acceptance and participation. They both share the disrespect. Link to post Share on other sites
Fallen Angel Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Its easy to feel the way you do' date=' because you were the one with the illegitimate invite into [i']someone else's[/i] life. His W and family will not be happy to learn of the things that he has told you about them, because it is none of your business. And its actually NOT his right to tell you those things. There is a such thing as boundaries and he is crossing several. intruder - someone who intrudes on the privacy or property of another without permission Synonym are interloper, trespass, interfere. An OP does all of those things in someone else's marriage. Just because they don't feel that they are doing those things, doesn't make it any different to the one experiencing the behavior, or finding out about it. How is my invitation into HIS life illegitimate? It is HIS life, he can share it with whomever he choses at anytime. He is a full grown man, capable of making decisions for himself, and he does. What he shares with me is HIS life. He tells me things that are about HIM, things that are said about his wife are generaly peripheral to the story he is telling me about HIMSELF. As to the things he tells me about his children, and grandchildren, well, they are HIS children and grandchildren, again, he has the right to talk about them with anyone he so choses. If he was telling the same stories to one of his work buddies, rather than telling me, you wouldn't say that it is not his right to tell them. It is my buisness in so much as he has made it my buisness, chosing to share intimate details with me. Again, I did not sneak in his house and wire it for sound and video, the reason I know intimate details of what goes on there is because I have been invited into that knowledge. I know it makes BS angry to hear that, but saying it isn't so, doesn't make it not so. Link to post Share on other sites
eeyore1981 Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 How is my invitation into HIS life illegitimate? It is HIS life, he can share it with whomever he choses at anytime. He is a full grown man, capable of making decisions for himself, and he does. What he shares with me is HIS life. He tells me things that are about HIM, things that are said about his wife are generaly peripheral to the story he is telling me about HIMSELF. As to the things he tells me about his children, and grandchildren, well, they are HIS children and grandchildren, again, he has the right to talk about them with anyone he so choses. If he was telling the same stories to one of his work buddies, rather than telling me, you wouldn't say that it is not his right to tell them. It is my buisness in so much as he has made it my buisness, chosing to share intimate details with me. Again, I did not sneak in his house and wire it for sound and video, the reason I know intimate details of what goes on there is because I have been invited into that knowledge. I know it makes BS angry to hear that, but saying it isn't so, doesn't make it not so. This can be a double-edged sword. Maybe you will be one of the lucky ones, but have you ever stopped to think how you will feel if you are not? I know so many personal, intimate details about OW in my situation, she would freak if she had a clue how much I know about her. Link to post Share on other sites
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