Can I save my marriage?

[flash654]

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond to my post.

 

Before I start, I need to give a little bit of background information. My now wife and I met online about 6 years ago. We were both young at the time – she 16 and I 19. We chatted a bit, but she was with someone else at the time, and we were just friends. It was originally a long distance relationship – with me living in Chicago and her on the east coast.

 

A year later, she leaves the guy she was with. We remain friends, but nothing more really. She starts college and we find we have even more in common than we thought and begin to become close. Eventually we realize that we like each other as more than friends and begin to have an online relationship.

 

We met each other first in June of 2006. The trip went exceedingly well. We proceeded have 19 more trips over the next year and a half, at which point we decided that she would move here to Chicago with me, and we would get married in August of 2008 – which we did.

 

The first year of marriage was truly a great thing for both of us. We both felt as though we had found our soul mates. We did everything together. We were truly happy in our lives. She had a little bit of stress going to school full time and also holding down a part time job, but she didn’t really want to slow down the pace of either of these things. (I make enough to cover all of our bills and have a little bit left over. Everything she makes is gravy.)

 

Fast forward to the more recent past – December 2008. She seems to be increasingly unhappy with our situation. She says our apartment is falling apart. She virtually cries every morning when I wake her up because she has so much aversion to starting the day. She yells at me for little things, and says I hang on her too much. This is all not that unusual – she has up and down periods. I always try to be extra nice to her when she’s having a bad time.

 

But this time… it hasn’t gone away. In the last few weeks she’s been telling me she’s going to leave me when she finishes school in 6 months. She says she feels no attraction to me. She says I’m ugly and fat. She yells at me for every single tiny little thing I do – even if it’s helpful, like zipping her backpack closed for her when it’s open, or expressing concern that she might slip on a particularly icy patch of sidewalk. She doesn’t even want to do things that we’ve always done together anymore – like read in bed, or cook, or go out. She says I’m boring, and she doesn’t want to do things together or let me do anything nice for her because I might hold it over her head later and use it as an example of why she shouldn’t leave me.

 

I try to talk to her about it all the time – I ask what’s wrong – how can I help? I know that it’s a stressful time for her and I’m trying to help, but she says she just feels trapped by me and she has to get out. She says I’m too old and I’m boring and I’m holding her back from her life. (I’m 25, she’s 22 now.) I’ve even suggested that we go to counseling, but she won’t even entertain the idea.

 

It’s gotten so bad in the last week that she’ll put her headphones on when she’s around me just so she doesn’t have to hear me talk to her. And yet, she says she still loves me – but like a security blanket. She’ll still make jokes with me and laugh – but a minute later she’ll be back to yelling and ignoring me.

 

I truly truly love her, and I want to spend the rest of my life with her. I’m panicking because I don’t know what to do – I’m worried that she’s really going to leave me. I don’t know what I can do that I haven’t already done.

 

Please help me. What can I do? Can I save our marriage?

[flash654]

The thing is, it's so hard for me to tell if it's "real" this time or not. She'd always get mad at me, yell, scream, and then later that night come back and hug me and we'd be good again. Then it would happen again a week later. Regular fights for couples, I suppose.

 

I'm really just trying to figure out what happened in the last month that suddenly changed.

 

I don't know if I could handle a divorce, on a number of emotional levels. Our lives are so connected that I probably couldn't do 3/4 of the things I (we) enjoy without crying my eyes out. I'd really like to try to save it if I can.

[mem11363]

Flash,

You have 90 percent of the equation NAILED. A good job, I bet you are smart and interesting and fun to talk to.

 

The last 10 percent is all about an intangible that is critical to the health of a long term relationship. That 10 percent is all about being alpha. Go read about that - go find out how this works and then apply it. Might be too late for this marriage - but it will work wonders in your next one.

 

An alpha - when he is being treated badly - reacts in a powerful way. Not a yelling, screaming childish manner. That is pure aggression and frankly while scary it is counterproductive. A real alpha is able to inject a scary edge into his voice - ask some very painful questions and then let the lame/pathetic answers he gets just hang there until his partner - squirming in anxiety says "I am sorry for being such a total biitch". At which point he says "I forgive you". He does not say "oh you weren't being..." that is the worst thing you can do. Accept the apology as given and move on.

 

She has lost respect for you because you lack that 10 percent. And maybe you are not mentally able to pull this off - meaning maybe you are just a pure beta conflict avoidant guy. If so, you will have a difficult time finding a woman who will "stay" in love with you. Falling is easier then staying.

 

 

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond to my post.

 

Before I start, I need to give a little bit of background information. My now wife and I met online about 6 years ago. We were both young at the time – she 16 and I 19. We chatted a bit, but she was with someone else at the time, and we were just friends. It was originally a long distance relationship – with me living in Chicago and her on the east coast.

 

A year later, she leaves the guy she was with. We remain friends, but nothing more really. She starts college and we find we have even more in common than we thought and begin to become close. Eventually we realize that we like each other as more than friends and begin to have an online relationship.

 

We met each other first in June of 2006. The trip went exceedingly well. We proceeded have 19 more trips over the next year and a half, at which point we decided that she would move here to Chicago with me, and we would get married in August of 2008 – which we did.

 

The first year of marriage was truly a great thing for both of us. We both felt as though we had found our soul mates. We did everything together. We were truly happy in our lives. She had a little bit of stress going to school full time and also holding down a part time job, but she didn’t really want to slow down the pace of either of these things. (I make enough to cover all of our bills and have a little bit left over. Everything she makes is gravy.)

 

Fast forward to the more recent past – December 2008. She seems to be increasingly unhappy with our situation. She says our apartment is falling apart. She virtually cries every morning when I wake her up because she has so much aversion to starting the day. She yells at me for little things, and says I hang on her too much. This is all not that unusual – she has up and down periods. I always try to be extra nice to her when she’s having a bad time.

 

But this time… it hasn’t gone away. In the last few weeks she’s been telling me she’s going to leave me when she finishes school in 6 months. She says she feels no attraction to me. She says I’m ugly and fat. She yells at me for every single tiny little thing I do – even if it’s helpful, like zipping her backpack closed for her when it’s open, or expressing concern that she might slip on a particularly icy patch of sidewalk. She doesn’t even want to do things that we’ve always done together anymore – like read in bed, or cook, or go out. She says I’m boring, and she doesn’t want to do things together or let me do anything nice for her because I might hold it over her head later and use it as an example of why she shouldn’t leave me.

 

I try to talk to her about it all the time – I ask what’s wrong – how can I help? I know that it’s a stressful time for her and I’m trying to help, but she says she just feels trapped by me and she has to get out. She says I’m too old and I’m boring and I’m holding her back from her life. (I’m 25, she’s 22 now.) I’ve even suggested that we go to counseling, but she won’t even entertain the idea.

 

It’s gotten so bad in the last week that she’ll put her headphones on when she’s around me just so she doesn’t have to hear me talk to her. And yet, she says she still loves me – but like a security blanket. She’ll still make jokes with me and laugh – but a minute later she’ll be back to yelling and ignoring me.

 

I truly truly love her, and I want to spend the rest of my life with her. I’m panicking because I don’t know what to do – I’m worried that she’s really going to leave me. I don’t know what I can do that I haven’t already done.

 

Please help me. What can I do? Can I save our marriage?

[Jeff1962]

FLASH. Your wife's explosive behavior MAY be due to depression. The way she lashes out at you, calling you names, saying things to you that can only cause pain but then turns around and says "I still love you" are classic examples of depression or a chemical imbalance. BELIEVE ME, I KNOW ALL TOO WELL.

 

To me, when she says that she is going to leave you after school is finished, is a round about way of reaching out to you that she is hurting and confused. Most people just leave, if they are going to do so.

 

If you can, talk to her about seeing her regular doctor. I am not a doctor but sounds to me like she needs an anti depressent. These usually take about 11-14 days to regulate in the body but once they do, there CAN be a dramatic difference.

 

I am a vet. I went thru a very bad time after I got home. I seriously thought about taking my own life. Everything pissed me off. I yelled, cursed, just about everything to lash out because I was hurting. I could'nt talk to my wife because I did not want her to feel the burden over what I have seen and am dealing with. I was prescribed and anti depressent and I can say without any doubt that it has helped me.

 

There is no shame in admitting that you may need a little help. I did and it saved my life.

[flash654]

Flash,you are just a pure beta conflict avoidant guy. If so, you will have a difficult time finding a woman who will "stay" in love with you. Falling is easier then staying.

 

This is 100% true - I tend to avoid conflict at all costs. Even if it's to my own detriment. If I had to do something that caused myself discomfort in order to make her happy, I'd do it. I'm probably the most agreeable person you'll ever meet. I think I've actually gotten upset enough to yell at her maybe twice in the entire time we've known eachother.

 

 

So you think the answer is to be more aggressive in my own needs? To not give her what she wants at every turn?

 

She's told me on several occasions that I don't act much like a man, so you might be on to something.

[laRubiaBonita]

i was going to say it sounds a bit like depression too.....

 

have you suggested marriage counselin? or maybe individual counceling for both of you- or just yourself if she is unwilling to do MC or IC....

[flash654]

FLASH. Your wife's explosive behavior MAY be due to depression. The way she lashes out at you, calling you names, saying things to you that can only cause pain but then turns around and says "I still love you" are classic examples of depression or a chemical imbalance. BELIEVE ME, I KNOW ALL TOO WELL.

 

To me, when she says that she is going to leave you after school is finished, is a round about way of reaching out to you that she is hurting and confused. Most people just leave, if they are going to do so.

 

If you can, talk to her about seeing her regular doctor. I am not a doctor but sounds to me like she needs an anti depressent. These usually take about 11-14 days to regulate in the body but once they do, there CAN be a dramatic difference.

 

I am a vet. I went thru a very bad time after I got home. I seriously thought about taking my own life. Everything pissed me off. I yelled, cursed, just about everything to lash out because I was hurting. I could'nt talk to my wife because I did not want her to feel the burden over what I have seen and am dealing with. I was prescribed and anti depressent and I can say without any doubt that it has helped me.

 

There is no shame in admitting that you may need a little help. I did and it saved my life.

 

I would totally believe that she is depressed. Her family background is not great. Her mother had some pretty major drug problems, and a lot of people going back have some history of addiction.

 

I'd suggest that we go see a doctor about it - but she has an aversion to them. It's the same way she has an aversion to going to marriage counseling. I'm worried that if I were to bring this up, it might set off another round of her being upset at me. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells.

 

I'm willing to bring it up to her, but I'd need to be very careful in how I did it.

[Jeff1962]

I would totally believe that she is depressed. Her family background is not great. Her mother had some pretty major drug problems, and a lot of people going back have some history of addiction.

 

I'd suggest that we go see a doctor about it - but she has an aversion to them. It's the same way she has an aversion to going to marriage counseling. I'm worried that if I were to bring this up, it might set off another round of her being upset at me. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells.

 

I'm willing to bring it up to her, but I'd need to be very careful in how I did it.

 

Yes, you do need to approach this delicately with your wife.

 

Look dude. All you can do is try. If your wife is unwilling to seek any form of help, all you can do is to do your best for yourself and her. Being more aggressive is NOT necessarily the answer. Yes, women expect us men to be strong but women view strength in different ways than men do. There is a difference between caring and being strong as a man opposed to being a klingon. You may need to prepare yourself for the fact that this relationship may not work out if she refuses to seek help.

 

I wish you all the luck in the world.

[mem11363]

Flash,

Below is the best post on this I have come across. The author - Atholk - and I correspond a bit. Lets just say that he and I are both married a long time and BOTH of us have wives who are in love with us, and very sexual with us. So this is based on real world experience. MOST guys who end up in sexless marriages - are like you. Seriously conflict avoidant - pure beta.

 

You are still young enough to learn how to do this. The thing is you have GOT to be willing to have conflict and you have to learn to manage your emotions DURING the conflict so you stay in control of yourself and to a large degree stay in control of the situation.

 

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

ATHOLK post from last year

 

It's very hard to get my entire approach to marriage in this format down, and to be honest it's mostly working best in making average/good relationships better, rather than salvaging bad ones. Once people have cheated or otherwise checked out of reality it's really hard to bring that back to what it was.

 

Loosely summarized - women respond to men exhibiting positive versions of two primary male traits called Alpha Male and Beta Male.

 

Alpha Male is devoted to physicality, assertiveness, leadership, social dominance, healthy genes, raw sexual energy, power and at times even violence. The positive version is thats of an inspiring protector and the not so positive is simply a thug. This is the male aspect that just gets panties wet and triggers attraction. Thugs still get panties wet, they are just scary to be a relationship with.

 

The Beta Male is devoted to personality traits that ultimately are good for rasing children. Work ethic, building the nest, kindess, parenting skills, listening, holding a job, controlling anger and sexual energy, art, language and creativity. The positive version is the family man that provides and supports, the negative version is the mangina that gives away all relationship power to the woman. Good Betas build relationship comfort. When the woman is given too much comfort and not enough attraction, she becomes bored with her partner. Often the begining of the end. (Queue up the "I love you, but I'm not in love with you" speech.)

 

The man needs to develop and show both Alpha and Beta traits over a long term relationship and show them appropriately. Most men typically do better with one or the other of these traits, and in times of pressure (like a break up) just act more and more from their position of natural strength. Natural Alpha's get bigger and louder and become scarier and even less reliable. Natural Beta's do more stuff for the woman and bore her to death with their neediness even faster. So more often than not, their natural reaction to relationship stress just intensifies the relationship problem.

 

So if you're too Beta the solution is to add Alpha. If you're too Alpha, the solution is to add Beta.

 

It is exceptionally important to balance both positive traits in a long term relationship. Women have a monthly sexual cycle with changing hormones that affects what they are more attracted to throughout the month. For about three weeks of the month women respond more positively to Beta Male behavior. But when she is ovulating Alpha Male behavior is highly attractive. Importantly - while ovulation is only a small part of the month, this is when she will make her most critical sexual decisions and is at her horniest. Husbands that fail to display Alpha traits specially during ovulation run a higher risk for being either abandoned, cheated on, or rasing children they think are theirs but aren't.

 

In terms of myself, I more naturally fall along lines of Beta behavior. My marriage has always been decent, but I've seen many improvements by learning to up the Alpha stuff.

 

Also a common misconception is that Alpha behavior involves some sort of aggression towards the wife (yelling, hitting, property destruction, issuing demands, bossing her about etc) These things do work to change her behavior, but only in the very short term as they undercut the positive Beta traits and ultimately destory the relationship. Ultimately the best Alpha display is that you're just going to make your way into the world with confidence and just succeed at whatever it is that you're going to do. Opinions of the rest of the world be damned, you're your own man. And like a huge truck on the interstate, you just create a huge hole in the air that makes following you easy.

 

 

 

This is 100% true - I tend to avoid conflict at all costs. Even if it's to my own detriment. If I had to do something that caused myself discomfort in order to make her happy, I'd do it. I'm probably the most agreeable person you'll ever meet. I think I've actually gotten upset enough to yell at her maybe twice in the entire time we've known eachother.

 

 

So you think the answer is to be more aggressive in my own needs? To not give her what she wants at every turn?

 

She's told me on several occasions that I don't act much like a man, so you might be on to something.

[flash654]

Mem -

 

Thank you very much for that. I see a whole boatload of myself in the beta male, and very little if any in the alpha male.

 

My natural reaction when things go sour is to get even more clingy, try to please her more, do more things for her, be nicer to her than usual - which according to this is just making it worse.

 

So what I need to do then, is add alpha. I need to be more dominant and express what I want more often. The problem then becomes - for a pure beta like myself, how do I accomplish this?

 

I think the first thing I can do is try to cling to her less often. Try to give her a little bit more space. Then I can try to be a little bit more direct and say what I want instead of always trying to please her...

 

If you have any more advice, please do let me know!

[1Angel]

You sound like a very attentive partner. Lucky lady you have!

She isn't willing to go to counseling or work on this relationship I'd say no it's not salvagable. Sorry.

[flash654]

You sound like a very attentive partner. Lucky lady you have!

 

See - this is why I'm so beta though! Because I want to be attentive and kind and make she she has everything she needs. And through this people thing that she's "Lucky" for having me!

 

But those are all beta traits. That's what I don't want to lose if I start trying to be assertive.

[mem11363]

Flash,

Find a website/or a book on how to be assertive. It will teach you some important stuff. For instance - when she flips out and yells at you - when she comes back to hug you - hold your hands up and say: "I am not ready for a hug - I am however willing to entertain an apology if it is given sincerely". And then hold your ground even if that means you don't really speak about other then basic scheduling courtesy stuff for the next few days. This isn't really about HER it IS about you. No woman is going to stay long term with a male who isn't a man.

 

Start going to the gym every day. And find a hobby that takes you out of the apartment. Be less present and when you are present DON'T be clingy/needy. Let her come to you. The most certain way to kill someone's love for you is to over love them. You sound like a big time over lover....

 

The best way to amplify someones love is to be a great partner and UNDER love them mainly by being with them less then they would like/less then they are used to.

 

Strength training at the gym will make you naturally more aggressive. It will boost your Testosterone levels...

 

 

Mem -

 

Thank you very much for that. I see a whole boatload of myself in the beta male, and very little if any in the alpha male.

 

My natural reaction when things go sour is to get even more clingy, try to please her more, do more things for her, be nicer to her than usual - which according to this is just making it worse.

 

So what I need to do then, is add alpha. I need to be more dominant and express what I want more often. The problem then becomes - for a pure beta like myself, how do I accomplish this?

 

I think the first thing I can do is try to cling to her less often. Try to give her a little bit more space. Then I can try to be a little bit more direct and say what I want instead of always trying to please her...

 

If you have any more advice, please do let me know!

[flash654]

What you're saying really makes sense. I'm going to start today. I have to be sure to start slow, but I'll build it up. And you're right, I totally am an over lover. I'm always there, always available. I've left meetings at work just to come be with her for a little bit of extra time. We literally do everything together. Any moment we're not busy at work or school we're together.

 

Thanks a lot - I really do appreciate it. Do you have any recommendations on books? Otherwise I'm sure I can find something good based on reviews.

[bestplayer]

This is 100% true - I tend to avoid conflict at all costs. Even if it's to my own detriment. If I had to do something that caused myself discomfort in order to make her happy, I'd do it. I'm probably the most agreeable person you'll ever meet. I think I've actually gotten upset enough to yell at her maybe twice in the entire time we've known eachother.

 

 

So you think the answer is to be more aggressive in my own needs? To not give her what she wants at every turn?

 

She's told me on several occasions that I don't act much like a man, so you might be on to something.

 

flash654 , the way u r trying to convince her into staying with u will definately backfire . u have to first change urself into a real man who has self-respect & is not begging a woman to stay with him. Too repulsive & boring .

 

u sound so dependent , emotionally weak that u need drastic change .

 

best of luck

[foxyroxy_msu83]

as much as i hate to say it, she is either just a very very hateful woman, is having an affair and doesnt know how to tell you, or has a mental illness such as bipolar disorder. good luck with this, you just have to think of what is best for you. would you be happy 10 years from now if your relationship was still the same?

[dazzle22]

Wow. I have never heard it expressed as alpha/beta traits, but what Mem said totally resonated with me. My first husband was total beta - not good, total loss of attraction and respect. My second husband, great mix, mainly alpha. TOTAL turn on, am CRAZY about him...Wow! I am going to book mark this thread!

 

Totally agree with all the others too. Your wife is falling into a depression too. But some of the subtleties you mention, make me very concerned there may be another alpha wolf in the wings...just a funny feeling I am getting here...

[Woggle]

You are 25 with your life ahead of you so why do you even want this woman? Surely you can do better than this. Just let her leave and get on with your life.