Johnny M Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 You are more interested in personal attacks based on non truths than contributing anything. Which part of my post was a non-truth? Link to post Share on other sites
meerkat stew Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Well excuse me for not dating faggetty men who cry over picking up a first date tab. Sheesh! See here's the problem. We aren't stupid. We know that if we ever don't pay for the first date, we get called "cheap" or even "faggetty." Now I don't know about your particular real men, but I do know that -this- particular real man doesn't have to take women on dates to get laid, and I also know lots of my real man friends who are just like, or even better than me in this respect. It is not a testament to our suave and studliness, just a sign of the times and of the world in which we live. As a matter of fact, my friends who are very good with women NEVER take them out on "dates" until a satisfying relationship is in place and after several months of the woman proving her worth. These guys are what people call the "alpha" males, and I'm one of these myself, just not up to some of my friends' caliber as far as they have women throwing themselves at them on a weekly basis. Mine come monthly or so. I take women out on dates for the fun experience and good female company, because I enjoy it, enjoy their lovely female company. I pay for the first date. But when I see a thread like this, it makes me think, "why bother? why should I play to the entitled attitude that paying for dates is my obligation, that it is expected of me? That if I'm ever slow getting my wallet right out that women will collect somewhere and accuse me of playing some kind of 'slow wallet' trick?" Why bother with dating at all if this kind of petty griping is going on behind the scenes? Bolster that with a few choice real life experiences: I once had a marguerita-tipsy first date call me "cheap" to my face when I tipped the valet $2 after spending $80 immediately prior on her in the restaurant, etc. Why should I ever take a woman out and spend a dime on her until she has proven herself to me? I'd love to continue dating normally, some of my friends laugh at me for it "Man why do you take them out on dates? you know you don't have to." and certain posters in threads like this reinforce that. However, it is refreshing to see many of the females here in the thread don't feel entitled to free stuff as a member of the vagina club, that they feel nice when treated, but not entitled, and they aren't rushing off somewhere to gripe about the cheap guy who didn't pay enough. That is the difference that keeps me going with standard dating, entitlement versus appreciation. We all want to be appreciated, not obligated. Link to post Share on other sites
thegreatmoose Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Thankfully, not all women are self-centered gold diggers....and those who are can be easily spotted and avoided. I wonder how you would define the term "gold digger". I doubt it would be the way most would define it. Link to post Share on other sites
Johnny M Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I take women out on dates for the fun experience and good female company, because I enjoy it, enjoy their lovely female company. I pay for the first date. But when I see a thread like this, it makes me think, "why bother? why should I play to the entitled attitude that paying for dates is my obligation, that it is expected of me? Meerket, don't let this forum mess with your head. Reading this forum can sometimes be a pretty depressing experience, but you have to remember that the women of LS (especially certain long-time posters) are a very 'special' bunch. And while there are plenty of women like that in the real world, there is also no shortage of women who are far more decent. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Johnny M Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I wonder how you would define the term "gold digger". I doubt it would be the way most would define it. You still haven't answered my previous question. Link to post Share on other sites
Jersey Shortie Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Gosh, I'm sorry I missed so much of this thread, it really took off..some things that caught my eye as i went through it. Mem11363 JS, For someone who routinely hammers men for looking at other women - a biologically programmed behavior - you sure did go straight to biology on this one. You can't have it both ways. Either men and women BOTH have some hardwired behaviors that are not attractive but that we accept in each other or we BOTH expect the other to over ride our hard wired behaviors. You post a lot about bad male hard wired behavior but seem unwilling to acknowledge bad female hard wired behavior. Be consistent and people will be slower to perceive you as a male basher. By the way - I AM consistent. I accept the hard wired behaviors. They are present and strong. I don't have to like them but I tend to not whine about them. My issue isn't the biological drives we have. My issue as always been the abuse of these "biological drives" and lack of self control. I never advocated that women take advantage of men for their money. If you are not into a man, and know it, then don't let him pay. If you always ask him to take you to expensive places, that's really not fair. If you expect him to pay for every little thing, again, not fair. But a first date where she paid for dinner and he couldn't even pay for desert? Come on. He took advantage of her. And she let him sadly. If it was me, I would have rose my eyebrow and asked him if he "got this" then never gone out with him again. He deserves to be kicked to the curb. Don't twist my words around to suit your own agenda and then throw in blase words like "male basher" to try and solidify your cockamamie point. Enema I wonder how much of a contributing factor to women being single is the unrelenting desire for a man to pay for food. It's not a desire to pay for food. Unlike men, we got more complicated movtivations filling our heads then just a hot meal. Now, we all know how important food is to men. And I don't say that to be rude. Women aren't worried about their next hot meal. They are more worried about how she is going to relate to said male then she is her meal. This comment just plain doesn't apply to women because we aren't like men where we are thinking about food in terms you are to even make this comment. It is in our best interest to pick a mate that will share himself and his resources then one that could leave us and our children out in the cold. Do I think that women should take advantage of men for this? Of course not. But I also see a level of selfishness in men that I think was unpresidented in previous generations on this topic specfically. Enema I've never paid for all of a first date, I don't consider it fair. Even with my now-wife, we split our first date. We're happily married now and she's a prominent scientist. Maybe her intelligence helped her see through the fog of sexist tradition. Yeah, that's why you're married. Because you didn't pay for all of your first date and your wife is a scientist. How do you feel about sexist tradition when it's the guys going to strip clubs or oggling cheerleaders during a football game? Are those okay? A lot of people miss out on something great because of their hangups. You mean like a man that is so stingy with his money he is going to be counting score like a miser? hoping2heal The way people try to define "equality" is ridiculous. There are a lot of ways men treat EACHOTHER that would offend I am sure any of the women here spouting about women's rights and equality if a man were doing it to a woman. Then there will be the "Well they shouldn't be doing it to eachother." No, they shouldn't. However wether you like it or not it will always bother us to see a man haul off and punch a woman in the face in a bar because she said something to make him angry. It will always upset us if a man walks by and smacks a woman on the butt to flirt. If a man sees a woman struggling to carry something heavy and doesn't stop to help, it will bug us. Why? Because she's a woman. The day you are okay with a man persuing a woman sexually and aggressively the way a woman persues a man i.e touching, etc. The day you are all cool with a man hauling off and clocking a woman because she's annoying him at the bar, the day you are fine with seeing a woman struggle to carry something heavy while the physically able bodied man just sits there and doesn't bother to help? THEN you can talk about equality Well said Hopingtoheal. Men don't want true equality. Because that means we take everything away from women or men that make us women and men. So guys, you can forget about those sexy little lace thongs, heels and thigh highs right? You want equality! And you can forget about the perfume and make up we use to doll ourselves up. You want equality! Oh and certainly forget about any of that ego stroking women do or those soft words we coo to you in the dark of the night when no one else is around. You want equality. So slap us on the back, give us a beer, let us wear dirty white beaters and laugh at Spike TV with you instead. That's equality right? Woogle My wife is different than other women. She shows that she appreciates but your average woman I couldn't care less about. Most women think of men as dumb muscle and I will not be used in that manner Instead, you decide to use your wife instead to support some messed up idea about what "equality" is. But then again, maybe your wife is built like a linebacker and you are one of those skinny guys? In which case, then I can understand why she does the heavy lifting. Link to post Share on other sites
thegreatmoose Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 You still haven't answered my previous question. I'm not going to post my dating or sexual history on here and it is very rude for you to bring that up. What is relevant is that when I pay on a first date, the woman always seems happy. Link to post Share on other sites
Johnny M Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 What is relevant is that when I pay on a first date, the woman always seems happy. But apparently not happy enough, if you know what I mean 1 Link to post Share on other sites
meerkat stew Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Meerket, don't let this forum mess with your head. Reading this forum can sometimes be a pretty depressing experience, but you have to remember that the women of LS (especially certain long-time posters) are a very 'special' bunch. And while there are plenty of women like that in the real world, there is also no shortage of women who are far more decent. Actually, many real life experiences and friends' experiences bear the bad attitude out also. This thread has had some good, enlightened attitudes posted by women which gives me hope. One other thing that bears mentioning is that when men see women casually sleeping with guys without any date paying or even date going expectations, many of us say, well hell, that guy's no better looking, no more charming or seductive than I am, I'm not taking them out either. I just got back from staying with a friend for a few days. He has women calling him all day wanting to come over and sleep with him, more often just give him head... all ages of women. He isn't rich or famous, just good with women. Can only imagine what rich famous guys get. He tells me that many of these women sneak off to be with him, then head right back to their BFs. He generally won't accept a married woman's advances, but has on occasion. I've been like my friend at various times in life, and for some peculiar reason, I get the vibe that if you do take them out and spend money on them, lots of them actually take this as a sign of weakness in some power balance they seem intent on keeping track of. Things did NOT used to be this way at the beginning of my dating life back in the early 80s. Now of course all women don't do this, nor do all men. But LOTS do these days. I've been on lots of first dates in my life where I could almost smell a FWB on a woman, or that she was freshly f%cked. I've dated women before and found out that they went home and slept with some random dude after getting drunk after our date. I call this the "I get em juiced up for the next guy" phenomenon, and many men have experienced it. I've had them tell me to my face, I want to date you the right way because I see more potential, then run out and sleep around with guys they know there's no relationship potential with because they feel less emotionally vulnerable to them than to me. How's that for female logic? The point is, it's not just this forum that gets me down on dating expectations and double standards, but what I experience every day. I have it good generally personally, and am not really complaining. Mostly, I just rail about the inconsistencies and privileged attitudes. I can buy a priviliged attitude from a woman about traditional sex roles if I feel her feet aren't backwards on some FWB's or ex's headboard every night, if they are though, why should I pay for that "delicate flower's" meal? She's no better nor more chaste or pure than I am. Link to post Share on other sites
thegreatmoose Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 But apparently not happy enough, if you know what I mean I don't see many women happy at all with you in this thread. Link to post Share on other sites
meerkat stew Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 So guys, you can forget about those sexy little lace thongs, heels and thigh highs right? You want equality! What on earth does bedroom attire have to do with equality? That's fine though, naked is always good too. Link to post Share on other sites
tami-chan Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 LOL...this thread is really very entertaining ! I don't think men who do not pay for dinner on the first date are cheap...but I do think that they are men who are not willing to succumbed to a social practice that is not fair....well, good for them! At least, right there, the woman should already have an idea on what kind of man she is "dealing" with-not a pushover for "convention"! That said, I have never been invited out and had to pay, but I usually return the gesture by inviting him out to MY favorite restaurant or some place I want to try and I always say "my treat"..there is always some protest but I am pretty stubborn...so.... Of course, my dating experience is very scant... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Johnny M Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 The point is, it's not just this forum that gets me down on dating expectations and double standards, but what I experience every day. I have it good generally personally, and am not really complaining. Mostly, I just rail about the inconsistencies and privileged attitudes. I can buy a priviliged attitude from a woman about traditional sex roles if I feel her feet aren't backwards on some FWB's or ex's headboard every night, if they are though, why should I pay for that "delicate flower's" meal? She's no better nor more chaste or pure than I am. I know where you're coming from. The line in your signature pretty much summarizes everything that's wrong with the dating scene form a man's perspective. The 20th century gave birth to a strange and improbable creature - a hybrid of a gold digger, feminist and slut. A lot of guys make the mistake of assuming that women are delicate, precious, innocent, pure, etc etc. A better approach is to do the opposite: assume that every woman you meet is a gold digging, egoistical slut - until proven otherwise. That way, you can only be positively surprised. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Angel1111 Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I'm absolutely stunned that his topic has gone on for this long, and with the venom and bitterness associated with it. You know, my 19-yr-old son has this basic concept down and yet here are you adult men talking about women like they're a burden to you, as though you were raised in a barn, with no concept of chivalry. It might shock you to know that in some cultures, men are still gentlemen and wouldn't dream of letting a woman pay for a meal if he's present, or wouldn't dream of not opening a door for a woman. This kind of man does this because he likes to be chivalrous toward women, because his basic nature is gentlemanly, and regardless of how competent a woman may be, she always appreciates a man who makes her feel cared for and respected. You can criticize and argue this all day long (or, several days, as is the case here) but it is, for the most part, a fact. You can choose to fight it and continue to wonder about why your relationships are screwed up, or you can choose to look at your behavior and realize that it's not working. It's kind of the same thing as a woman who's 150 lbs overweight and says that she expects a man to love her for who she is. Well, she may find that person, but most men will not see beyond her physical appearance. Now, this woman can fight this all her life and never get anywhere until she comes to grips with the facts. Same here with a guy being a gentleman - you can fight it all your life...or not. Your choice. It has nothing to do with being a golddigger and that's what all you guys out there arguing this point are completely missing. You weren't raised to be gentlemen, you weren't raised to believe that when a man does things for a woman because HE WANTS TO that it says something about his character. It is not about money, it is about character. Read John Gray's book 'Mars and Venus on a Date' and you'll understand better than I could ever explain it. Women want and need to feel adored by a man, just as much as men need to feel appreciated and admired by a woman. These are the basic natures of the sexes (and, yes, I do understand that there are exceptions to this). In most cases, when men and women deviate from their natures, conflict and confusion follows. Link to post Share on other sites
meerkat stew Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Having, said that, you expect the women to date to look good, to have values, to be fit, to be intelligent and great fun company, basically all the things you would expect from an ideal catch for you. Well we expect you to pay on the first date. It is that simple a concept. That simple? Let me see if I have this straight: Man expects: look good, values, fit, intelligent, fun Woman expects: look good, values, fit, intelligent, fun + pay on the first date. Does that sum it up? It's oh so clear now Link to post Share on other sites
meerkat stew Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 It might shock you to know that in some cultures, men are still gentlemen and wouldn't dream of letting a woman pay for a meal if he's present Yeah, they are called chumps, and the women he is paying for are headed off to sleep with my friends (and occasionally me) afterwards with nice full bellies. Care to join us in the 21st century? You can criticize and argue this all day long (or, several days, as is the case here) but it is, for the most part, a fact. We can and will, thanks, and despite your laughable moral indignation and lecturing. It's a simple money thing. THAT's a fact. "Chivalry" hasn't existed for 500 years, a "gentleman" is someone who subsists on inherited wealth, and even if I -was- raised in a barn, at least it means I know hogwash when I see it. Link to post Share on other sites
meerkat stew Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 and...you sleep with the "cum-buggies" because....why again? Forgive me for pointing out the obvious but your disdain for these types of women while also choosing to partake in these debauched trysts gives you the right to speak ill of their ways because....why again? Was just making a point in response to the poster's dismissive tone. I don't have women come over after dates with other men and sleep with me as a general practice, though it has happened several times without my knowledge. Link to post Share on other sites
meerkat stew Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Ok so what was the point then that cheap women have 0 standards in the 21st century? I think we had already established that. But for the record it's not a new concept. The last time I had a woman come stay with me after a date, it was actually me staying with her, but didn't realize she had dates that night, TWO dates actually, both first dates from the net, both to nice places, both paid for everything. She was a 40 y.o. boardroom level executive at a large company, very accomplished, classy. gorgeous and educated, not some "cheap" woman. She told me about the dates the next day. It's not just the "cheap" ones who do this kind of thing. Link to post Share on other sites
Jersey Shortie Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Jersey Shortie does have a point, if equality in romance is what everyone is after then we women should start, growing hair, burping, farting, and dressing like men, afterall if we are all equal why should we care to look feminine? Personally, I don't want that. I like being feminine in every respect. I also enjoy being feminine. And men clearly enjoy women being feminine as well. But only when the feminity apparently suits them 100% and their needs..such as having a hot woman on their arm instead of a butch like woman. And they don't actually have to give anything of themselves, they can happily keep on taking. Apparently men want us to oblierate any thing that makes us women because now we have jobs. So if men really want true equality, then women should stop getting plucked, waxed, shaved, implanted...and a million other painful things women do to keep beautiful. After all, we are all equal right? Women have jobs now so we aren't aloud to want to feel like women anymore. Link to post Share on other sites
meerkat stew Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) Any woman who sets three dates or two (didn't quite get that) in one night with three men and lets them go through big enough productions to wine and dine her is cheap in my books. ... And so that's the reason why men shouldn't pay for a first date? Rationalize however you like, lots of women out there these days, cheap or not, are sleeping with a FWB or ex while dating other men deemed more "relationship worthy" than the ex or FWB they are shagging...OR they are sleeping with one "king of the hill" Mr. Big guy hoping a relationship forms while still accepting dates, and MONEY paid for those dates, with other men. They feel entitled to behave in this way while simultaneously expecting men to pay for early dates. Almost NO man would pay for a date if he knew she had slept with a FWB or ex within the last couple of days, yet most men realize that this is going on, and there is no way on earth to know unless you happen to get clued in later. Men don't generally operate this way. If a man is sleeping with one woman regularly, he generally isn't out taking other women on dates. He may add another woman to the mix, just not by dating. So while men are expected to be "chivalrous" and "gentlemanly" by paying for early dates, most men know that a certain (high) percentage of the women they are dating have no reciprocal accountability for their sex habits whatsoever today. I'm sure this sounds fine and dandy to many women, but to many men who are "waking up" it's obviously a very raw deal, especially if a man knows he doesn't -have to- date most women to get them in bed and headed either right out the door after, or towards a relationship if he is looking for a GF. And finally, want to reiterate that there is an ever-increasing number of women out there who devalue men who ask them out on dates in comparison to men who don't "have to" date to get women. This is a fact I have learned through much experience that seemed completely counterintuitive years ago, but over 30 years experience and friends' experience, proves true. Not all women, but many more than women want to admit are like this these days, and respect a man more who can seduce them without dating. Once more, there is no way on earth for the man to know which type of woman he is dealing with, especially right off the bat where the expectation for him to pay is highest, and she sure as hell ain't telling. By the time he knows for sure, well... he's already spent his money, which I'm sure sounds just fine and dandy to hyper-privileged American women today. Edited January 21, 2010 by meerkat stew Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Women can dress however they want. If a woman wants to act butch that is her right. I find it really how funny how for a long time a man would get dirty looks if he tried to hold open a door or be chivalrous but now all of a sudden women want men to be gentlemen again. Will women at least admit that women share at least half the blame for killing chivalry? Women these days just do not inspire men to want to be chivalrous becuase they don't appreciate one bit of it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Ok that was funny! Well excuse me for not dating faggetty men who cry over picking up a first date tab. Sheesh! I don't think I can compete with a trip to Vegas in a borrowed pick-up truck and Doritos for dinner in the truck because neither of them would/could pay for a proper dinner! It's not even in the same hemisphere of reality that I live in, sorry, no competition whatsoever. Yeah. We DROVE to Vegas from Seattle. How dense can one person really display themselves to be? Let's keep reading and find out, shall we? And HAD we driven to Vegas from Seattle in a borrowed Eddie Bower Special Edition pickup truck, at least I wouldn't have felt like a hooker afterward. Link to post Share on other sites
RedDevil66 Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I agree with the above in bold, so why are you arguing against chivalry!! I'm the same way, I can pay my own pay and I do have ex bfs where I insist on paying by the 3rd date and insist on paying at times thereafter. BUT I do still like to know that my guy is generous enough to WANT to pay for me eventhough he doesnt have to! You said your bf is oldschool! Come back and argue once you find another bf who is not old school and does the slow wallet thing and would rather you pay instead or split.... I'm not arguing against chivalry. Where was I arguing about it? Well you're going to have MANY MANY MANY ex bf's if you keep up this childish behaviour. You don't throw people away for one silly thing. Maybe he's cheap, but maybe he's overly generous with other aspects of his life. I would rather have a cheap guy with a great heart than a guy who pays for every meal who's a total douche! And why would I find another BF?! I don't throw them away as easily as you I'm 43, been with him for 4 yrs and think I'll keep this one, thanks! Link to post Share on other sites
RedDevil66 Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 HOOOORAYYY!!!! Thats my sentiments exactly! I am actually cringing for the GIRLS who are on here saying men should not pay ... I would hate to think that little of myself to be honest. You are right Conehead and I, for one, applaud you! OH PUHLLEEZE!!! the only person who thinks little of herself is Conehead who throw away maybe a GREAT man cause he didn't pay for dessert. I feel sorry for women who feel entitled. Take a WIFF of the real world ladies! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
dreamergrl Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Yeah. We DROVE to Vegas from Seattle. How dense can one person really display themselves to be? Let's keep reading and find out, shall we? And HAD we driven to Vegas from Seattle in a borrowed Eddie Bower Special Edition pickup truck, at least I wouldn't have felt like a hooker afterward. And didn't she call us ignorant? I'm not arguing against chivalry. Where was I arguing about it? Well you're going to have MANY MANY MANY ex bf's if you keep up this childish behaviour. You don't throw people away for one silly thing. Maybe he's cheap, but maybe he's overly generous with other aspects of his life. I would rather have a cheap guy with a great heart than a guy who pays for every meal who's a total douche! And why would I find another BF?! I don't throw them away as easily as you I'm 43, been with him for 4 yrs and think I'll keep this one, thanks! Another very well written post. What I don't understand is he's being called cheap. But what if he paid for the whole date and it was only $20 bucks instead of the whole $80? Link to post Share on other sites
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