It's Just Amusing at This Point

[purgatori]

Not only can I not attract the romantic interest of women, but I can't even befriend them. It doesn't matter what walk of life a given woman is from, whether she's straight or gay, straight-laced or left-of-field, dumb-as-a-post, or a rocket-scientist, it always ends the same way: the total cessation of contact. Initially, the women I meet (either online, or in-person) shower me with praise about how intelligent I am, and how I make them laugh, and so on, but there must be some aspect of my personality, beliefs, or manner that becomes apparent when they get to know me a little better, and it inevitably sends them running; and no, it's not an offensive smell, or confession of a predilection for collecting pickled cat heads.

 

Even an atheist like me starts to wonder if there isn't some cosmic prankster, with an especially strong appetite for irony, who is responsible for setting the parameters of my life. 'So he likes girls does he... well then, let's just see to it that male friends shall always answer to his call, but female friends will be found nowhere at all! *mad cackling ensues*. All I can really do is laugh at this point, because it happens with such unbroken regularity. Of course, in truth, mirth is about the furthest thing from my affective state as anything could possibly be.

[DiscoChick]

confession of a predilection for collecting pickled cat heads.

 

 

So, do you? That would be a truly interesting hobby. I would suggest not worrying about finding a woman. Let her find you. Also, if you get desperate for a female friend, I'll be happy to oblige you.

[OmegaSol]

Hey man I wish I had magic words or dust to sprinkle over you... Sans lawsuit resulting in such but I also feel like I'm in the same position as you. Even questioning the whole cosmic prankster theory. Aaaany way I guess you can take comfort or discomfort knowing there is someone else word for word going through the same thing as you. Here's to figuring out what it is.

[Disillusioned]

I solved the problem by getting interested in doing other things (like fixing up the house I inherited and getting the first 50 copies of my novel printed). Now I'm happily busy with my new author gig... though the way I see it, gaining a gf would be the icing on the cake right now, because she'd have to make an appointment with me!

[purgatori]

So, do you? That would be a truly interesting hobby. I would suggest not worrying about finding a woman. Let her find you. Also, if you get desperate for a female friend, I'll be happy to oblige you.

 

No, no I don't -- I like my cat heads attached to the cats they originally came from. As for letting 'her' find me; at 28 years of age, I'm starting to doubt her tracking abilities And thanks for the offer of friendship, even though I'm quite sure that it would follow the same trajectory as all the other proto-friendships with women I have ever had

 

Hey man I wish I had magic words or dust to sprinkle over you... Sans lawsuit resulting in such but I also feel like I'm in the same position as you. Even questioning the whole cosmic prankster theory. Aaaany way I guess you can take comfort or discomfort knowing there is someone else word for word going through the same thing as you. Here's to figuring out what it is.

 

Yes, I'd like to figure it out as well. I mean, I even grew up in an all-female household (excluding myself, of course), so you'd think I'd have no trouble engaging with women, but noooo. Oh well, maybe in a few years they'll be able to pick up the cause with some kind of genetic test or something

 

I solved the problem by getting interested in doing other things (like fixing up the house I inherited and getting the first 50 copies of my novel printed). Now I'm happily busy with my new author gig... though the way I see it, gaining a gf would be the icing on the cake right now, because she'd have to make an appointment with me!

 

Glad to hear it For me though, it doesn't matter how busy I get, I still feel lonesome.

[DiscoChick]

No, no I don't -- I like my cat heads attached to the cats they originally came from. As for letting 'her' find me; at 28 years of age, I'm starting to doubt her tracking abilities And thanks for the offer of friendship, even though I'm quite sure that it would follow the same trajectory as all the other proto-friendships with women I have ever had .

 

No, people tend to stop talking to me once they think they have a good idea of the type of person I am. People write me off as a lunatic and go months without speaking to me. They turn away when they see me in public. Ahhh, well. I don't know how to make everyone happy, and I gave up years ago trying to figure it out. If you can't make yourself happy, you're probably going to have a rough time with life. That's why I take the easy way out. I read Wordworth, Keats, or Shelley and go out into nature and enjoy the connection I have there. People may not understand me, but the earth does a wonderful job of satisfying my needs.

[apearlfromgrit]

Hi. I registered just so I could post a reply to this. I feel like I might have known a few guys like you. A few guys who were emotionally available, clever, funny, easy going, all around awesome and yet... just didn't do it for me. I feel I may have done some of these guys wrong, not explaining to them why, despite all their good, they just didn't blow my skirt up.

The irony of this is that I, myself can't seem to get anyone interested in me lately. Apparently my man-getting days are behind me but oddly enough, looking back although I do sometimes wish I had stuck with the almost-but-not-quite guys, I still feel I made the right decisions... though I could have done it all with a little more grace.

Anyway, point being this: I have a theory. You're not interested enough in yourself. Trust me I know, when you're single and hanging out alone with yourself all the time, paying attention to yourself gets old fast. But if you use that time by yourself to become the best version of yourself you can, you will automatically become a more magnetic person. Start a huge and intimidating project you always said you'd do before you died but never really thought you would, like writing a novel, learning close-up magic, taking a night class in something unusual, learning to cook, whatever. What this gives you is not only a really cool hobby, interest or skill to talk about, but it will also make you more confident as your project progresses, show that you know the difference between commitment and obsession, and show that when you want something, you'll work hard to get it and never give up. These are very attractive qualities. And as an added bonus, you'll get to know yourself not as the guy constantly striking out with girls, but the guy who wrote a book, can make a rose appear from nowhere, speaks Swahili and knows how to make creme brulee.

When you present yourself (consciously or not) as a guy that's got a big empty part of himself and is looking for a woman to complete him, no amount of wit, wisecracking or fashion sense will distract the ladies from the fact that you feel like an incomplete man. Now, I don't know you and I don't know if that's really how you are. I'm just taking a stab in the dark and speaking from my own experience. And I'm not suggesting that you're desperate or needy or anything negative like that. What I'm saying is that a man who is comfortable in his skin, has passion and drive and just likes being himself is an attractive man. And he's going to attract the not the kind of women who see him as a "fixer upper" or just a friend, but the kind of women who want to be around confidence and ambition.

[USMCHokie]

Apearlfromgrit's response is spot on. I think a lot of guys out there would do well to heed her advice. Myself included...

[apearlfromgrit]

Just read some of your other posts. My advice remains the same with one addition: if David Bowie, Prince, Morrissey and Rudolph Valentino can be effeminate ambi-sexuals and get pretty girls, so can you. Confidence is the key.

[reflecting zen]

Apearlfromgrit, that was a pretty awesome post, and you're right. Cheers.

[purgatori]

If you can't make yourself happy, you're probably going to have a rough time with life.

Sadly, I think you're right.

 

-----

 

apearlfromgrit: Thankyou very much for taking the time to reply to this thread, I really do appreciate it. I can't say that I agree with, or even understand a lot of what you're saying, though. Just at the outset: if these guys just didn't do it for you, despite how 'awesome' they were, then even if I was the best me, who's to say that I still wouldn't fail to attract anything more than friendly interest (not that I even get that) from women? And not to sound ungrateful, but this whole idea that I need to improve myself almost to the point of eliminating all imperfections just to be noticed by women is kind of annoying, if not hurtful, when I only need to look around to see that some of the guys who have the most success with women are FAR from perfect in my opinion.

 

Yes, I am incomplete for lack of a woman in my life, but I think any man, unless he is pathologically narcissistic, will likewise suffer from such a lack in the same circumstances. This is simply the reality of my condition, and I'm not going to try to deny or hide it. Despite this lack, however, I am still not desperate enough that I will compromise myself, or my values, just so that I might enjoy female company. To that end, I have no interest in attracting a woman who's main 'turn-ons' are narcissistic self-sufficiency to the point of ambivalence, indifference, or even hostility towards women except as sexual objects, a surplus of confidence (I am confident in areas where my strenghts lie, and appropriately un-confident in areas where I know that I am lacking -- to be otherwise is to be excessively confident), and ambition for the sake of ambition (as opposed to the ambition to do worthwhile things which don't just line one's own pockets). The reason I pathologize all of these qualities is that I already have them in reasonable amounts, and women still aren't attracted to me, so I can only conclude that they must need to be present to a pathological degree in order to actually exert an appeal to certain types of women -- and, indeed, this seems to be the case when one surveys which type of men the most desirable women tend to flock to.

 

As for your last point, I do not quite have the cache of a rockstar or an actor, nor do I have am I especially good-looking, even in an effeminate way. I wonder how well these guys would have fared, had they been psychologists-in-training on modest incomes instead

[apearlfromgrit]

It's entirely possible that taking my advice wouldn't work. But what's to lose? So you learn to juggle, sing or run a marathon but you're still single. Oh well, at least you did something out of the ordinary and you'll be no worse off for it.

I'm sorry if you feel I was suggesting you needed to polish yourself to perfection. I am a very big fan of imperfections and foibles. What I meant to convey was that you might try leading by example, in a way. That is to say that if you want to attract someone who finds you interesting you can't go wrong by becoming more interested in yourself.

I fail to see how learning to cook equals narcissism. Or how learning close-up magic would be an abandonment of your values. Although I don't know what your values are so I guess it's possible. I'm not suggesting you become an insufferable prick, just that you become someone who looks in the mirror and sees accomplishment and courage rather than incompleteness.

As for the concern that increasing your good qualities like ambition and confidence would be pathological, I don't think that you would so lose track of your sense of self that you would wake up one day and suddenly find that you've over-improved yourself into a worthless lunkhead jerk. You seem far too vigilant for that.

Oh, and David Bowie wasn't always a rock star, at one point he was a mime, busking for change; Prince used to be "Skipper" and was an epileptic from a broken home; Morrissey was a depressed teenager on welfare and Rudolph Valentino was an agricultural student living on handouts from extended family. I dare say they all fared quite well.

Edited February 1, 2010 by apearlfromgrit

[purgatori]

It's entirely possible that taking my advice wouldn't work. But what's to lose? So you learn to juggle, sing or run a marathon but you're still single. Oh well, at least you did something out of the ordinary and you'll be no worse off for it.

I'm sorry if you feel I was suggesting you needed to polish yourself to perfection. I am a very big fan of imperfections and foibles. What I meant to convey was that you might try leading by example, in a way. That is to say that if you want to attract someone who finds you interesting you can't go wrong by becoming more interested in yourself.

Oh ok, well, you see, I think I'm pretty interesting already. I'm an extremely well-read philosophy major, probationary/training psychologist, who surfs and swims (non-competively), and who can already cook pretty darn well according to those who have sampled my food. I even know a few 'magic' tricks on account of my psychology training in the area of perception, and I trained in karate and muay thai for a time. It's true that I'm not the most outgoing person, but I have done a number of things which I think are quite interesting. I know that I'm already a lot more interesting than the guys whose interests almost-exclusively consist of cars, drinking with mates, and "the footy"; but I know first-hand that that translates into almost nothing in terms of dateability credit.

 

It's not that I'm opposed to self-improvement, in fact, I have something of a passion for it, it's just that I resent being told that I need to quadruple my awesome quotient, when guys such as those as hotchickswithdouchebags(dot)com have no trouble at all.

 

My comment about narcissism referred directly to the type of man who really doesn't experience the lack of a significant other in his life, so long as he is able to satisfy his desire for sexual gratification and social status. Such a man would, in fact, perceive such a lack to be a threat to his need for complete self-sufficiency. I am not like that, and I don't want a woman who finds that attractive. When I look in the mirror I do see positive qualities, but I also know that I am missing out on quite a lot of what makes life worth living.

 

You're right about all those guys you mentioned having rough starts in life, but not knowing their biographies extensively, I would be very surprised if they were terribly popular with the ladies until they achieved some amount of recognition, if not fame. As for my odds, they're certainly not increasing with age, and it's already quite late in the game.

Edited February 1, 2010 by purgatori

[apearlfromgrit]

You're right. You're perfect, don't change a thing. Girls all have cooties anyway.

[neowulf]

You're right. You're perfect, don't change a thing. Girls all have cooties anyway.

 

I hope you're paying attention OP.. because this is perhaps the *most* useful response in this whole thread.

 

There's a blind spot in your thinking. You don't know it's there, but it is. Others see it and this response gives you a clue to what it might be.

 

Why did this response come from someone who was otherwise helpful just a few posts ago?

 

What does it say to you?

 

Empty your cup, forget everything you "know" about your situation and objectively ask the question "Why did I get a response like the one above?"

 

I understand the reason for the above post. I'm curious to see if you do.

[purgatori]

I hope you're paying attention OP.. because this is perhaps the *most* useful response in this whole thread.

 

There's a blind spot in your thinking. You don't know it's there, but it is. Others see it and this response gives you a clue to what it might be.

 

Why did this response come from someone who was otherwise helpful just a few posts ago?

 

What does it say to you?

 

Empty your cup, forget everything you "know" about your situation and objectively ask the question "Why did I get a response like the one above?"

 

I understand the reason for the above post. I'm curious to see if you do.

 

There are any number of possible reasons. The first one that jumps to mind is that she didn't like having her assumptions about me corrected, and/or didn't like that I was rejecting her advice. Another possibility is that she took offense to the vituperative comments I made about certain male demographics, from which she may herself have selected previous romantic partners.

 

There is every likelihood, however, that my assumptions about her motivations are every bit as inaccurate as the assumptions she made about my lifestyle, situation, and character; as such I cannot provide a definitive explanation for that post, or any of the her other posts, for that matter.

 

I hope that your curiousity has been satisfied.

[neowulf]

There are any number of possible reasons. The first one that jumps to mind is that she didn't like having her assumptions about me corrected, and/or didn't like that I was rejecting her advice. Another possibility is that she took offense to the vituperative comments I made about certain male demographics, from which she may herself have selected previous romantic partners.

 

There is every likelihood, however, that my assumptions about her motivations are every bit as inaccurate as the assumptions she made about my lifestyle, situation, and character; as such I cannot provide a definitive explanation for that post, or any of the her other posts, for that matter.

 

I hope that your curiousity has been satisfied.

 

All excellent possiblities. I'd like to offer one of my own.

 

I've been following your various threads for a while and you know what I gather from them?

 

"I already know why I fail, it's obvious to me. I'm not here for advice or a possible alternative point of view. I'm just here looking for validation and pitty".

 

You say "Oh, I *know* how the world works" and trap yourself in the thinking that leaves you unhappy and lonely.

 

You're so hung up on being "right" about your position and the way the world works that you're unable to see the flaws in your own reasoning.

 

What did I take from that reponse?

 

"You've obviously made up your mind, you're not open to thinking about the problem in new ways, so I'll just leave you to it. Enjoy your sad, lonley life".

 

Of course, I'm making my own assumptions here, based on what I've read of your posts. Perhaps you're really a well adjusted, happy person who just likes to vent on a forum. I'm not sure.

 

These are of course just my opinion. Feel free to discount it. It's your life after all.

[purgatori]

"I already know why I fail, it's obvious to me. I'm not here for advice or a possible alternative point of view. I'm just here looking for validation and pitty".

 

That is not exactly true, as I have incorported the perspectives that people have shared on this forum with regard to my situation when they genuinely revealed something regarding myself. or my situation, about which I was not previously fully aware. In at least a couple of instances, posters on this forum were extremely insightful, even given the limitations of the information that can be discolosed through such a medium as this.

 

With regard to the topic of this particular thread, I believe that women who met me in person would have a much better idea of why they didn't like me, and why other girls might not like me, either. More broadly, those who interact with me in person, regardless of their sex, would think it absurd if I thought I had any chance with the sorts of women I find desirable. People are generally very good at ranking one another in terms of mate value, and they know, unless they are at least somewhat delusional, that a person of relatively low mate value is very unlikely to attract someone of high mate value.

 

My point? If more of the posters on this forum had the opportunity to perform observe me in person and so be privy to more of the cues to mate value, they would in fact agree with me that my odds of success are slim, and that no amount of participation in activities hang-gliding, white-water rafting, animal rescue, or confident swagger would be sufficient to make me attractive to the '9s' and '10s' out there. In fact, once they learned that I refuse to 'settle' for anything less, any sympathy they might have previously had for my position would go out the window, and they'd probably be rather taken aback that 'this guy' has the gall to believe he deserves 9s and 10s, and that he's 'too good' for everyone else.

 

Given all that, would it be fair to say that I believe that, for the most part, I have accurately gauged my chances of success in the domain under consideration and that I am resigned to my 'fate' (so to speak)? Obviously, yes. So you're right, I guess I am here for validation and pity, even though I consciously expect neither. But I'm also here to 'vent', as you say, because I am anything but happy, and have a lot of pent-up bitterness and rage as a result of liking who I am, but knowing that the qualities that comprise 'me' are not rated very highly in the estimation of women when it comes to mate selection, while other qualities that I find undesirable or even borderline despicable are highly valued.

 

So there you have it. I don't pretend to be a happy and well-adjusted person, but nor am I someone who is ruderless in life and who has no future goals to work hard towards, or who lacks engaging hobbies and interests -- which is what apearlfromgrit misidentified as being the problem. That's not her fault, mind, but nor is it my fault if she took offense to being corrected.

[neowulf]

My point? If more of the posters on this forum had the opportunity to perform observe me in person and so be privy to more of the cues to mate value, they would in fact agree with me that my odds of success are slim, and that no amount of participation in activities hang-gliding, white-water rafting, animal rescue, or confident swagger would be sufficient to make me attractive to the '9s' and '10s' out there.

 

In fact, once they learned that I refuse to 'settle' for anything less, any sympathy they might have previously had for my position would go out the window, and they'd probably be rather taken aback that 'this guy' has the gall to believe he deserves 9s and 10s, and that he's 'too good' for everyone else.

 

Interesting.

 

So I understand..

 

Lets look at your thinking.

 

1. I want a 9 or 10 (In looks.. determiend by who exactly?). Only that will do. Nothing less.

 

2. I have decided I do not possess the attributes to obtain a 9 or 10.

 

3. I am unwilling to change or adapt in any way to get a different outcome.

 

4. I am happy to remain miserable and accept I always will be.

 

You're a smart guy. Surely you can see how faulty that pattern of thinking is?

 

Which leads me to this.

 

You don't want to be happy.

 

Not really. You want to stay miserable and alone. I don't know why you do, but it's the only explination.

 

If you really wanted to be happy, you'd let go of hiding behind your "principles" as a way of avoiding change and actually evalutate your thinking.

 

There is nothing wrong with loving beautiful women. There's nothing wrong with saying "I won't settle for less".

 

What *is* wrong is that you refuse to do anything to move towards what you want.

 

That's simply a cop out and a completely defeatist attitude.

 

*That* is why you'll never get a 9 or a 10. No woman wants to be around a man who whines "Woe as me" all day long.

 

Either adapt to get what you want or die miserable.

 

Those are your choices. For your sake, I hope you choose the former.

 

Good luck.

[purgatori]

So you think that someone can have or achieve anything, simply because they want it? I hate to break it to you, but life just doesn't work that way. All of nature is a probability wave, and one works within the constraints of likely outcomes. I could hope to win the lottery and become rich tomorrow, and even 'work' towards it by buying up a heap of tickets, but unless I accept that my chances of actually winning are infinitesimal, then I am deluding myself.

 

You're a smart guy. Surely you can see how faulty that pattern of thinking is?

 

Sure. Except it's not my pattern of thinking, it's a straw-man constructed by you.

 

1. I want a 9 or 10 (In looks.. determiend by who exactly?). Only that will do. Nothing less.

 

This part is true enough, except that I would not confine this rating to looks alone. As for 'determined by who' -- the answer would be: genes and lifestyle/envrionment. Tastes differ, but for any given individual there will be a high consensus regarding attractiveness. Women who are highly attractive will have access to a greater number of suitors, meaning that individual candidates will have to be highly competitive in terms of possessing desirable traits in order to be considered as potential mates. The reverse is also true, which is why people who are consistently rated as being highly attractive/eligiible usually end up in relationships with other people who are consistently rated as highly attractive.

 

Which brings us to:

 

2. I have decided I do not possess the attributes to obtain a 9 or 10.

 

Indeed. Nor do I, for the most part, wish to possess the necessary attributes.

 

3. I am unwilling to change or adapt in any way to get a different outcome.

 

Amendment: "I am unwilling to change in any way that would compromise my sense of self."

 

I am always changing and adapting in response to new challenges and the general vicissitudes of life, but you won't see me taking out a gym membership anytime soon, or behaving aggressively/dominantly in social situations so as to appear more intrasexually competitive, nor will I affect more masculine mannerisms, flaunt or pursue money for money's sake, hide or suppress my emotions to maintain a 'cool' exterior, feign athleticism or interest in athletic pursuits, etc. etc. etc. Why? Because none of those represent desirable directions for change. Even if I could be the 'alpha male', it's not something I want, because I don't much like alpha males, I like males who are sensitive, smart, and tend towards the more effeminate end of the spectrum: like me. In the past, I sometimes compromised who I am to fit in with the crowd, -- I'd shave my dreadlocks, or talk about sport and other topics that the majority actually care about, -- and it always made me profoundly unhappy, and the struggle to reclaim my 'authentic' self has been a difficult one, and one that is still ongoing.

 

4. I am happy to remain miserable and accept I always will be.

 

-happy.

 

What *is* wrong is that you refuse to do anything to move towards what you want.

 

Incorrect. There is nothing I *can* do which would not involve betraying myself in the process. Even if I were to aspire towards those characteristics that are most highly prized by women, I would not attain them to a sufficient degree to attract the women who I myself find attractive; simply because I do not have the genetic makeup of an alpha male.

 

Either adapt to get what you want or die miserable.

 

Those are your choices. For your sake, I hope you choose the former.

 

The fallacy is that you think 'choice' enters into it.

 

 

 

No woman wants to be around a man who whines "Woe as me" all day long.

 

Right, because that's exactly how I spend my days

 

Good luck.

 

You'll forgive me if I hold the sincerity of this statement in some doubt.

[reflecting zen]

Without sounding like a therapist, the whole point of these forums is to find out how we can overcome our problems, in your case with women. The sad but true reality is that you need to change some traits about you (which I know you hold dear) and do things that may be out of your comfort zone, that's the short answer.

 

My situation is this: I'm 25, I have a degree, I fly f***ing aeroplanes, I have some great friends and they mean everything to me. But I have never had a girlfriend. Like you I have found it incredibly frustrating that everyone around me can seem to get on the same wavelength and connect with women but I can't. It's all probably my programming from previous experiences/my childhood blah blah blah but anyway I can't change that. What I can change is how I approach women today.

 

I have read your previous posts. You seem to hate masculine men.

 

The reality is this: In the same way that men are hard-wired to be attracted to beautiful women to bear their offspring; women are hard-wired to be attracted to men who will protect them (and their offspring). This has been happening since we were cavemen.

 

This is a simple principle that is described in a publication called The Flow, which you can get from www.themodernman.com They have basically got steps to improve your confidence and to integrate some traits into your current self, so that you can attract more women. For example, from your excellent command of the English language, I can already determine that you are quite intelligent; so if we can mix some cocky humour in with that, and some confident masculine body language, and maybe a few new threads (wear a funny hat), we are already getting women to notice you.

 

Is that outside your comfort zone? Probably. Good.

 

Being lonely and depressed about all this, and willing to do anything to fix it, I've more than happy to take this stuff on board. You should as well.

 

And some of the advice that been posted on here (apearlfromgrit's 'do something new' advice comes to mind) is also good, I've taken it on board. This advice is also outlined in The Flow.

 

If there are some deeper reasons, then you need professional help. That's how I started. Don't be afraid of that.

 

Now shut up, stop being a wuss, and start trying these things.

 

And don't resign. I've been down many times, mainly due to this same issue, but I still believe the best is still to come.

[neowulf]

So you think that someone can have or achieve anything, simply because they want it? I hate to break it to you, but life just doesn't work that way.

 

*shrug*

 

I'd sooner spend my life "trying" than sit on my hands, whining about my life.

 

Maybe I'll never get what I want in the end.. maybe I'll never get close.

 

But you know what.. maybe I might.

 

I think that chance is worth taking.

 

But hey, keep on doing what your doing. Seems to be working well for you so far.

 

As for "I don't wish to compromise myself".. I'm not suggesting you sell yourself out. Just that you entertain the idea of trying something new.

 

And dispite the harshness of my delivery, I do wish you luck. It sounds like you're in a sad lonely place and I think that's a shame.

[silverfish]

That is not exactly true, as I have incorported the perspectives that people have shared on this forum with regard to my situation when they genuinely revealed something regarding myself. or my situation, about which I was not previously fully aware. In at least a couple of instances, posters on this forum were extremely insightful, even given the limitations of the information that can be discolosed through such a medium as this.

 

With regard to the topic of this particular thread, I believe that women who met me in person would have a much better idea of why they didn't like me, and why other girls might not like me, either. More broadly, those who interact with me in person, regardless of their sex, would think it absurd if I thought I had any chance with the sorts of women I find desirable. People are generally very good at ranking one another in terms of mate value, and they know, unless they are at least somewhat delusional, that a person of relatively low mate value is very unlikely to attract someone of high mate value.

 

My point? If more of the posters on this forum had the opportunity to perform observe me in person and so be privy to more of the cues to mate value, they would in fact agree with me that my odds of success are slim, and that no amount of participation in activities hang-gliding, white-water rafting, animal rescue, or confident swagger would be sufficient to make me attractive to the '9s' and '10s' out there. In fact, once they learned that I refuse to 'settle' for anything less, any sympathy they might have previously had for my position would go out the window, and they'd probably be rather taken aback that 'this guy' has the gall to believe he deserves 9s and 10s, and that he's 'too good' for everyone else.

 

Given all that, would it be fair to say that I believe that, for the most part, I have accurately gauged my chances of success in the domain under consideration and that I am resigned to my 'fate' (so to speak)? Obviously, yes. So you're right, I guess I am here for validation and pity, even though I consciously expect neither. But I'm also here to 'vent', as you say, because I am anything but happy, and have a lot of pent-up bitterness and rage as a result of liking who I am, but knowing that the qualities that comprise 'me' are not rated very highly in the estimation of women when it comes to mate selection, while other qualities that I find undesirable or even borderline despicable are highly valued.

 

So there you have it. I don't pretend to be a happy and well-adjusted person, but nor am I someone who is ruderless in life and who has no future goals to work hard towards, or who lacks engaging hobbies and interests -- which is what apearlfromgrit misidentified as being the problem. That's not her fault, mind, but nor is it my fault if she took offense to being corrected.

 

I think the bolded part is the bit I have trouble with. You say you don't like 'masculine' or 'alpha' men but you yourself want the female equivalent for a partner. Its not really fair to expect something in a woman that you cant offer yourself is it? Would you be happy with a girl who looks 'masculine', and who doesnt care about the trappings of femininity? I already know the answer because you yourself 'rate' women on a scale of 1-10 - a bit hypocritical.

 

You mention narcissism a few times but ironically there are a few indicators of that in your posts.

[Taramere]

I think the bolded part is the bit I have trouble with. You say you don't like 'masculine' or 'alpha' men but you yourself want the female equivalent for a partner. Its not really fair to expect something in a woman that you cant offer yourself is it?

 

The same thing occurs to me. It's a tad petulant for a person to reject conventional values of attractiveness for themselves, then get angsty because they can't attract a conventionally attractive partner.

[purgatori]

I think the bolded part is the bit I have trouble with. You say you don't like 'masculine' or 'alpha' men but you yourself want the female equivalent for a partner. Its not really fair to expect something in a woman that you cant offer yourself is it? Would you be happy with a girl who looks 'masculine', and who doesnt care about the trappings of femininity? I already know the answer because you yourself 'rate' women on a scale of 1-10 - a bit hypocritical.

 

If there's one thing I've learnt, it's that the universe isn't about being 'fair.' Besides, in my personal opinion, masculine qualities are mostly negative, and feminine qualities are mostly positive, so I both desire and aspire towards feminine qualities rather than masculine ones. And actually, I hate the rating scales that people use, but the thing is, they do use them -- I simply picked one that seems to popular currently, so that there would be a higher likelihood of familiarity and comprehension on the part of readers. My point was that we all generally have some idea of where people fall in terms of their level of attractiveness to the opposite sex, and that the woman I tend to be attracted to are those who end up being considered by most people to be highly attractive. I don't mentally calculate a rating on a number-scale for each woman I come across; it's only that I acknowledge that woman who I am attracted to are those whom there are a lot of competition for.

 

As for the narcissism thing... well yeah, people on here seem to be divided as to whether I'm over- or under-confident; I'll put you in the former camp, shall I?

 

As for "I don't wish to compromise myself".. I'm not suggesting you sell yourself out. Just that you entertain the idea of trying something new.

 

I'm open to trying new things, it just depends what they are.

 

The same thing occurs to me. It's a tad petulant for a person to reject conventional values of attractiveness for themselves, then get angsty because they can't attract a conventionally attractive partner.

 

As I said, justice or fairness doesn't come into it. I am who I am, and I'm attracted to who I'm attracted to. If it makes you feel better though, then you can consider the whole "likely to be alone for the rest of my life" the corrective meted out by the cosmic scales of justice or whatever.

 

 

My situation is this: I'm 25, I have a degree, I fly f***ing aeroplanes, I have some great friends and they mean everything to me. But I have never had a girlfriend. Like you I have found it incredibly frustrating that everyone around me can seem to get on the same wavelength and connect with women but I can't. It's all probably my programming from previous experiences/my childhood blah blah blah but anyway I can't change that. What I can change is how I approach women today.

 

I must confess that I am shocked that a guy who flys aeroplanes would be lacking for female company.

 

I have read your previous posts. You seem to hate masculine men.

 

A fair statement. And that is why I find the idea of becoming more like those men, especially via a conscious effort on my part, abhorrent. If I were to cultivate those qualities in myself, I don't know that I could really respect or feel much affection towards any woman who was drawn to me based on those qualities. As it stands now, I find it very difficult to contemplate the women I like being attracted to these sorts of men, and I have even been known to sever all ties with women whom I started to feel something for upon finding out that they were into macho guys -- in part because I recognized that further interactions would be futile, but also because such knowledge brings with it all sorts of implications that arouse feelings of revulsion in me.

 

The reality is this: In the same way that men are hard-wired to be attracted to beautiful women to bear their offspring; women are hard-wired to be attracted to men who will protect them (and their offspring). This has been happening since we were cavemen.

 

That's certainly true, but I also find it rather depressing (for obvious reasons).

 

And some of the advice that been posted on here (apearlfromgrit's 'do something new' advice comes to mind) is also good, I've taken it on board. This advice is also outlined in The Flow.

 

Nothing you described is all that radical, except the whole 'masculine body language thing', -- that ain't happening --, and I'm certainly willing to 'do anything for love', as Meatloaf might say, 'but I won't do that', if 'that' is becoming more manly.

 

I've also had a fair bit of 'professional help'; none of which has been very helpful, which is very disappointing as someone who hopes to become a psychologist himself one day.