It's Just Amusing at This Point

[silverfish]

As for the narcissism thing... well yeah, people on here seem to be divided as to whether I'm over- or under-confident; I'll put you in the former camp, shall I?

 

I don't think its particularly anything to do with 'confidence' more, dare I say, arrogance, especially when you look at the statement below :

 

A fair statement. And that is why I find the idea of becoming more like those men, especially via a conscious effort on my part, abhorrent. If I were to cultivate those qualities in myself, I don't know that I could really respect or feel much affection towards any woman who was drawn to me based on those qualities. As it stands now, I find it very difficult to contemplate the women I like being attracted to these sorts of men, and I have even been known to sever all ties with women whom I started to feel something for upon finding out that they were into macho guys -- in part because I recognized that further interactions would be futile, but also because such knowledge brings with it all sorts of implications that arouse feelings of revulsion in me.

 

Imagine a woman - one of the '9 or 10's' that you are attracted to saying these things instead of you....you seem to be lacking in empathy for other people, applying impossible standards to others (women), that you find abhorrent when the situation is reversed. I don't know if you've studied NPD yet as part of your degree but you come across as having some qualities of someone with NPD, the lack of empathy for example, and I HATE labelling people. I don't feel too bad putting this to you though, as you don't seem to have too much of a problem labelling others, and you are in a better position than most to be able to deal with it, given your introspective nature and the subject you are studying....has it ever occured to you?

 

Just as an aside, I think my ex may have NPD, and I am often attracted to 'difficult' people (being difficult myself haha). I don't think you really want someone who challenges you, you sound like you want a barbie doll. You talk about women on a fairly superficial level.

 

 

I've also had a fair bit of 'professional help'; none of which has been very helpful, which is very disappointing as someone who hopes to become a psychologist himself one day.

 

Why hasn't it been helpful? What were you advised when you had help? Until you get round this I don't think you're going to have a happy relationship, and I'm speaking as someone who isn't in a relationship either, so I don't mean to be patronising. I'd just rather be on my own than deal with someone elses constant issues with themself (but then, like I said, I'm attracted to difficult people )

[apearlfromgrit]

I would just like to offer something in support of this discussion. I'm a pretty girl. I'm attractive, intelligent, creative, passionate and generous. I went out of my way to respond to Purgatori's original post because I was drawn to his writing style and his clear point of view. I guess you could say I was drawn to his personality, what of I could see from words on the page. If I had met him in person, I would have had liked to have talked to him, I probably would have flirted with him. But I was almost immediately turned off by the very quality neowulf has identified and now I really don't have an interest in engaging with him. So, perhaps I can stand as a concrete example to point this out to you, Purgatori: your negativity is what's keeping pretty girls away from you.

 

And again, although my original response to your post centered around hobbies, if you read it carefully, you'll see that I wasn't simply advocating that you acquire new hobbies or skills, or saying that you aren't multi-dimensional enough in your interests, I was saying that you ought to find something that gives you an immediate sense of pride and accomplishment, that requires the application of your best qualities and the abandonment of your worst. And I still stand by this because as your posts continue, I notice that the qualities you laud in yourself seem to come from a very shallow checklist, like you read them in Cosmo or something, whereas the qualities you decry about yourself seem to be (in your mind) fundamentally unchangeable. So My advice was to throw yourself at something you think you can't do. Challenge yourself. Because when you accomplish it (as I have no doubt you will) you can look back and say "I didn't think I could do that but I did." And just maybe then you can look at your love life and say "I didn't think I could make this work, but now I know I can."

Edited February 4, 2010 by apearlfromgrit

[purgatori]

Imagine a woman - one of the '9 or 10's' that you are attracted to saying these things instead of you....you seem to be lacking in empathy for other people, applying impossible standards to others (women), that you find abhorrent when the situation is reversed. I don't know if you've studied NPD yet as part of your degree but you come across as having some qualities of someone with NPD, the lack of empathy for example, and I HATE labelling people. I don't feel too bad putting this to you though, as you don't seem to have too much of a problem labelling others, and you are in a better position than most to be able to deal with it, given your introspective nature and the subject you are studying....has it ever occured to you?

 

What are these impossible standards that I'm applying, and what does this have to do with empathy?

 

Anyway, in order to qualify for a diagnosis, one must possess 5 or more of the following characteristics (*** = strongly agree, ** = partially agree, * = disagree)

 

[list=1]
[*]has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates  achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without  commensurate achievements) *
[*]is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power,  brilliance, [b]beauty[/b], or [b]ideal love[/b] ***
[*]believes that he or she is "special" and unique and [b]can only be  understood by[/b], or should associate with, other special or high-status  people (or institutions) **
[*]requires excessive admiration *
[*]has a sense of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entitlement"]entitlement[/url], i.e., unreasonable expectations of  especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her  expectations *
[*]is interpersonally [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploitative"]exploitative[/url], i.e., takes advantage of others to  achieve his or her own ends *
[*]lacks [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy"]empathy[/url]:  is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of  others *
[*]is often [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Envious"]envious[/url] of others or believes  others are envious of him or her ***
[*]shows [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrogant"]arrogant[/url], haughty behaviors or  attitudes **

Based on that self-evaluation, I would have to say that I do not qualify for a diagnosis of NPD. With regard to my seeming to lack empathy, well, I must admit that I am nowhere near as empathic as I once was, mostly because the increase in bitterness, jealousy, and hatred over the years has soured my feelings toward my fellow homo-sapiens. All the same, though, I was born a sensitive child, and I remain sensitive now -- I feel terrible for others, even those whom want to dislike, if I observe them in a state of distress or sorrow. A large part of why I am studying psychology comes from wanting to ease the suffering of others, in addition to my own.

 

Just as an aside, I think my ex may have NPD, and I am often attracted to 'difficult' people (being difficult myself haha). I don't think you really want someone who challenges you, you sound like you want a barbie doll. You talk about women on a fairly superficial level.

 

You are too eager to rush to conclusions. The last thing I want from a woman is servility or submissiveness. Woman who don't stand up for themselves (against in men, in particular) are not desirable in the least to me. If I talk about women on a seemingly-superficial level, then it is because I am talking about certain, fairly basic, facts about how women (and men, for that matter) have been shaped over the course of human evolution to select for certain traits. Of course this is only one part of one layer among many that comprise the females of our species. I could tell you about the individual women in my life, and how wonderful and unique they are, or I could talk about how women have a far superior grasp of what it means to be an embodied being than men do, owing to both their biological and psychological experiences and makeup, or I could talk about the courageous spirit of women who worked to heal and ultimately rejuvenate whole nations that had been shattered by war and which teetered on the brink of moral and physical desolation, or the humbling power of the bond between a mother and her children, etc. etc. Problem is, none of that is especially relevant to the topic at hand.

 

Why hasn't it been helpful? What were you advised when you had help? Until you get round this I don't think you're going to have a happy relationship, and I'm speaking as someone who isn't in a relationship either, so I don't mean to be patronising. I'd just rather be on my own than deal with someone elses constant issues with themself (but then, like I said, I'm attracted to difficult people )

 

The 'why' of it would involve going into a lot of detail regarding my misgivings about current CBT-dominated therapeutic practice that I won't bore anyone with here; suffice to say that I have yet to find a therapist (excluding someone working within the psychoanalytic framework, whom I was unfortunately no longer able to see when I had to move) with whom I can communicate how much the lack of romantic love in my life pains me such that they take it seriously, rather than assuming that my depression (which, along with social anxiety, is what I was diagnosed as suffering from) was either endogenous or a product of childhood trauma or not being socially active enough.

 

Admittedly, they did help with the social anxiety, and even the depression is not as disabling as it once was, but I am still suffering from a great deal of mental anguish. One can't really blame them too much though, as it is not as if they can magically conjure up a girlfriend for me, or alter the parameters of human mating behavior and preferences

[TouchedByViolet]

I think apearlfromgrit gave you the best advice.

 

Your amazing control of the english langauge and intellignece would make anyone interested to listen to you and would leave a great first impression. BUT! As soon as your personality comes across i feel like asking which ivory tower did this guy come down from? You are in a disconnected state from people emotionally. You are refusing to change because you think you are not being true to yourself (there are parts of yourself that need changing). I think your high intelligence allows you to create barriers against people trying to help you. As mentioned by many before you have too much negativity.

 

How many friends do you have?

[silverfish]

What are these impossible standards that I'm applying, and what does this have to do with empathy?

 

You said earlier that you think you're too good for anyone else other than '9 or 10' standard women, who don't express any interest whatsoever in 'masculine' men. I have absolutely no idea where you would find this female.

 

You said you would 'never speak to her again' if a woman you know expressed any interest in macho type men. Again, this is when you yourself only find the 'high end' in the looks department of women attractive or worthy of your attention

 

With regard to the topic of this particular thread, I believe that women who met me in person would have a much better idea of why they didn't like me, and why other girls might not like me, either. More broadly, those who interact with me in person, regardless of their sex, would think it absurd if I thought I had any chance with the sorts of women I find desirable. People are generally very good at ranking one another in terms of mate value, and they know, unless they are at least somewhat delusional, that a person of relatively low mate value is very unlikely to attract someone of high mate value.

 

I think you are mistaken that people go around 'ranking' other people in the way you are currently doing yourself. Maybe when I was younger at school / uni it happened a bit but not so much anymore. Of course, people comment or notice someone who is attractive to them, and also enjoy looking at beautiful people but it doesnt mean that they would exclude having a relationship with anyone other than Kate Winslet because they enjoy looking at Kate Winslet or whoever.

 

Maybe people do this judgment thing to make themselves look or feel better about themselves, because they consider themselves superior. Its not easy to see through though, and makes the person doing the judging come across as shallow, and narcissistic which where I think your problem may lie. How would this potential GF of yours ever live up to your unrealistic expectations?

[purgatori]

You said earlier that you think you're too good for anyone else other than '9 or 10' standard women, who don't express any interest whatsoever in 'masculine' men. I have absolutely no idea where you would find this female.

 

I never said any such thing. Revisit my previous posts.

 

You said you would 'never speak to her again' if a woman you know expressed any interest in macho type men. Again, this is when you yourself only find the 'high end' in the looks department of women attractive or worthy of your attention.

 

Your point being.... what, exactly? I already stated that I don't believe that justice or fairness has anything to do with who one is or isn't attracted to. Besides, I know that women and even the majority of men think differently, but I don't consider masculine men to be the best-looking examples of the sex, even if the possess markers for 'good' genes (e.g. genes that would have contributed to the success of offspring under hunter-gatherer conditions).

 

I think you are mistaken that people go around 'ranking' other people in the way you are currently doing yourself. Maybe when I was younger at school / uni it happened a bit but not so much anymore. Of course, people comment or notice someone who is attractive to them, and also enjoy looking at beautiful people but it doesnt mean that they would exclude having a relationship with anyone other than Kate Winslet because they enjoy looking at Kate Winslet or whoever.

 

You're entitled to think whatever you like, but the reality is that people do rate each other on all kinds of measures. Maybe not consciously, and maybe not on a finely graded scale, but they do. If we didn't, then the one and only ongoing gag in "I Love You Beth Cooper" would have been completely lost on audiences.

 

Maybe people do this judgment thing to make themselves look or feel better about themselves, because they consider themselves superior. Its not easy to see through though, and makes the person doing the judging come across as shallow, and narcissistic which where I think your problem may lie. How would this potential GF of yours ever live up to your unrealistic expectations?

 

People do it because they have evolved to look for traits in potential partners that are going to be of benefit to their offspring -- at least that's the primary reason. The difference is that I'm honest about it, but if you read my last post I made it quite clear that I don't go around ranking women on a number scale anyway.

 

Oh, and I don't have a 'potential GF.'

 

I think apearlfromgrit gave you the best advice.

 

Your amazing control of the english langauge and intellignece would make anyone interested to listen to you and would leave a great first impression. BUT! As soon as your personality comes across i feel like asking which ivory tower did this guy come down from? You are in a disconnected state from people emotionally. You are refusing to change because you think you are not being true to yourself (there are parts of yourself that need changing). I think your high intelligence allows you to create barriers against people trying to help you. As mentioned by many before you have too much negativity.

 

How many friends do you have?

 

Why, thankyou... but.... ok, how many friends, that I am in contact with regularly? Hmm. 3-4.

 

I would just like to offer something in support of this discussion. I'm a pretty girl. I'm attractive, intelligent, creative, passionate and generous. I went out of my way to respond to Purgatori's original post because I was drawn to his writing style and his clear point of view. I guess you could say I was drawn to his personality, what of I could see from words on the page. If I had met him in person, I would have had liked to have talked to him, I probably would have flirted with him. But I was almost immediately turned off by the very quality neowulf has identified and now I really don't have an interest in engaging with him. So, perhaps I can stand as a concrete example to point this out to you, Purgatori: your negativity is what's keeping pretty girls away from you.

 

Ok, point taken with regard to girls encountered online, but the pretty girls 'out there' generally don't get to know me well enough to assay my negativity. Sometimes I represent a curiousity for women and they'll stick around long enough to prod me and see what I do, but most of the time, I'm just invisible, especially if there are some 'real' men around.

 

I don't want to appear even more of a jerk by arguing with the rest of what you say, after you've been so nice, so I won't.

[apearlfromgrit]

How can anyone get to know you at all if even the most genuine attempts to react to your cry for help (for let us not forget that you came here asking for help figuring out why girls don't like you) are met with this holier-than-thou, condescending, negative attitude? There seems to be no bottom to this pit of negativity. What girl would want to subject herself to your criticism for no reward?

[purgatori]

How can anyone get to know you at all if even the most genuine attempts to react to your cry for help (for let us not forget that you came here asking for help figuring out why girls don't like you) are met with this holier-than-thou, condescending, negative attitude? There seems to be no bottom to this pit of negativity. What girl would want to subject herself to your criticism for no reward?

 

Sorry, but if someone's idea of providing help is calling me narcissistic, arrogant, shallow, judgemental, hypocritical, etc. then I am going to defend myself against that kind of 'help.' I'm also going to correct assumptions about me or my life that are incorrect, regardless of the good intenions of the person making those assumptions. I refrained from doing this last time, apart from making one modest correction, since you seem to find my doing so highly objectionable... but even then, it seems that I somehow managed to do the wrong thing.

[randall]

It sounds like you are unwilling to make yourself even a little bit more masculine for women even though that's what they want. You stated that changing yourself was a compromise to your 'integrity', but this has nothing to do with integrity. Your refusal to be more manly is borne of stubbornness and a preconceived negative attitude that changings things won't do any good. You should not try to portray stubbornness as self-integrity.

 

You want a woman who is perfectly feminine and 9 or 10 in looks, but you won't work on any of your masculine traits. That means you expect a woman to compromise a LOT to accept you, while you in turn will compromise almost nothing. This approach to other people is not an attractive at all.

[purgatori]

It sounds like you are unwilling to make yourself even a little bit more masculine for women even though that's what they want. You stated that changing yourself was a compromise to your 'integrity', but this has nothing to do with integrity. Your refusal to be more manly is borne of stubbornness and a preconceived negative attitude that changings things won't do any good. You should not try to portray stubbornness as self-integrity.

 

You want a woman who is perfectly feminine and 9 or 10 in looks, but you won't work on any of your masculine traits. That means you expect a woman to compromise a LOT to accept you, while you in turn will compromise almost nothing. This approach to other people is not an attractive at all.

 

Incorrect. My refusal to become more manly is borne of not wanting to be more manly.

 

I do not expect a woman to compromise her preferences in order to accept me. If a woman were to fall for me at all I would want it to be because of who I am, not in spite of it.

 

The mistake you (and others) seem to make is that if I like feminine women myself, then I should support the traditional feminine/masculine dyad in toto. I do not understand why this should be the case, even if acknowledge that the evolution of our species has made it so that this is the prevailing heterosocial arrangement.

 

You might have seen other threads I posted on here about wanting to be a lesbian woman and so forth. I have since come to accept myself as a feminine male, but I am no more enamored of traditional heterosexual dyads than I was before. A large part of the wish to be a woman while still retaining my attraction to women was to avoid the pressure exerted by society and potential romantic partners upon men to be more masculine.

[randall]

Incorrect. My refusal to become more manly is borne of not wanting to be more manly.

You don't want to be more manly but your refusal to try and be more masculine is because of stubborness and a refusal to compromise what you view as your 'integrity'.

 

We all need to do things we don't like if we are to get by as best we can in life. You refuse to even consider the notion. This stubborness and a refusal to compromise yourself is good up to a point, but it's almost like an compulsive trait for you.

 

 

I do not expect a woman to compromise her preferences in order to accept me. If a woman were to fall for me at all I would want it to be because of who I am, not in spite of it.

You are playing semantics.

 

Most couples are roughly equal in attractiveness. You want an ideal woman (9 or 10) who will accept a lower value partner than what she could get. You want her to like you for who you are. That is implicitly saying you want a woman who will do the heavy lifting in terms of compromising as far as the high-low value dynamic is concerned. You yourself offer to make no effort at all to try and raise your value to help with the lifting, you want some ideal woman to take on the entire burden and just accept you without you having to change anything.

 

The mistake you (and others) seem to make is that if I like feminine women myself, then I should support the traditional feminine/masculine dyad in toto.

You make way too many assumptions. Nobody is posting anything like that. People keep pointing out your unwillingness to make changes whilst continuing to to wallow in self-pity and male-hating angst.

 

Any time anyone points these things out you reject them by picking at semantics in their posts, or by arguing around what they are telling you, and trying to prove you are 'right'. As I said previously, this approach to other people is not attractive at all.

Edited February 5, 2010 by randall
Typos.

[purgatori]

 

Exactly what I've been saying all along.

 

You want an ideal woman (9 or 10) who will accept a lower value partner than what she could get. You want her to like you for who you are. That is implicitly saying you want a woman who will do the heavy lifting in terms of compromising as far as the high-low value dynamic is concerned. You yourself offer to make no effort at all to try and raise your value to help with the lifting, you want some ideal woman to take on the entire burden and just accept you without you having to change anything.

 

Wrong again, Randall, and for two reasons: the first being that this assumes that I accept that I consider higher degrees of masculinity in men to be more aesthetically pleasing/attractive, which I do not. I therefore do not, from my vantage point, consider someone who chooses a feminine male over a masculine male to have made a compromise in terms of attractiveness -- quite the opposite. Second, given that I do not want a woman for whom this would represent some sort of 'compromise', I do not expect her to shoulder any kind of 'burden.' If you think that I am making a merely 'semantic' distinction here then you either have little grasp of what that word means, or your ability to comprehend an argument is lacking.

 

Now the reason I am so pessimistic about ever finding someone is precisely because I estimate the chances of coming across such a woman to be extremely low. As you rightly said, people of roughly equal attractiveness tend to pair up, and as far as most people are concerned, attractiveness in men is bound up with masculinity.

 

As for not being prepared to make changes. This is once again simply false. I have more than my share of imperfections and defects, and I can think of many things about me that would likely need changing were I to hold up 'my end of the bargain' in an adult relationship. For the woman I loved, there isn't much that I wouldn't be prepared to do, including die for her, but one thing that I'm not willing to do is betray who I am by acting in a manner completely contrary to my nature... after all, if I did that, it wouldn't really be me that she loved, and I'd be lying to her and myself.

 

You make way too many assumptions. Nobody is posting anything like that. People keep pointing out your unwillingness to make changes whilst continuing to to wallow in self-pity and male-hating angst.

 

Ok, so despite all appearances to the contrary, what you're not saying is that if I want a pretty, feminine woman I should embrace being a masculine man (thus completing the traditional dyad)?

 

Any time anyone points these things out you reject them by picking at semantics in their posts, or by arguing around what they are telling you, and trying to prove you are 'right'. As I said previously, this approach to other people is not attractive at all.

 

And here I was thinking that you wanted me to be more masculine, and yet here you're telling me that I need to roll over on my back and accept whatever anyone says, whether I agree with it or not.

[neowulf]

 

As for not being prepared to make changes. This is once again simply false. I have more than my share of imperfections and defects, and I can think of many things about me that would likely need changing were I to hold up 'my end of the bargain' in an adult relationship. For the woman I loved, there isn't much that I wouldn't be prepared to do, including die for her, but one thing that I'm not willing to do is betray who I am by acting in a manner completely contrary to my nature... after all, if I did that, it wouldn't really be me that she loved, and I'd be lying to her and myself.

 

 

Ok, new angle.

 

Every day you make choices. These small and seemingly unimportant choices add up over time. They change us in small ways until eventually we're not the people we were before.

 

That's the nature of life. Adaption and change.

 

So I'll put it too you this way. Say there are two versions of you. The version of you "now" and the version of you which represents the "Best" version of you.

 

You make mention above that ..

 

"I can think of many things about me that would likely need changing were I to hold up 'my end of the bargain' in an adult relationship."

 

What would those be? More importantly, do they actually require being in a relationship to begin applying them?

 

Would you .. knowing you as you are now... date you? What is it you believe you have to offer another person in a relationship?

 

You acknowledge you have "flaws". Are these being addressed? Are you out there being the "best" version of yourself you can be?

 

When I was young, I was overweight. I spent almost all of primary and highschool being told I was "Fat and lazy" and that I sucked at sports.

 

I accepted that as my reality. I was fat and lazy. That was who I was. My lot in life.

 

It was all BS.

 

I chose differently for myself. I started small, with daily choices. Making better ones for myself.. and over years, I changed.

 

I'm now at a healthy weight, exercising 5 days a week and eating properly.

 

That outcome wasn't "magic" and it wasn't me "betraying my identify". It was me deciding I wanted something better for myself.

 

All the above posters have been trying to tell you is that you have the ability to choose your attitude to life.

 

Not how you're built, not what you're attracted too, or how you look. But your *attitude*.

 

I don't know you from real life, but I know this.

 

Your attitude as you display it on these forums is flat out toxic. That's not an attack. It's an observation.

 

You started this thread wondering why you can't make female friends?

 

Start there.

[apearlfromgrit]

Sorry, but if someone's idea of providing help is calling me narcissistic, arrogant, shallow, judgemental, hypocritical, etc. then I am going to defend myself against that kind of 'help.'

 

I never said any such thing. Revisit my previous posts.

[purgatori]

What would those be? More importantly, do they actually require being in a relationship to begin applying them?

 

I would need to allow myself to fully trust another human being, which would be very difficult for me -- not being so good at trust. After being alone so long, I would also find it difficult to cohabit with someone else and change my set ways of doing things around the home. I also worry that I might not be ever be entirely convinced that someone I was in a relationship would actually desire to be in close proximity with me, and I might therefore be hesitant in showing affection... on the other hand, I might also be too "clingy", as they say.

 

Those are the problems that I can foresee arising in a relationship, but I'm quite sure there would be many more, because I have no experience in a relationship (that, in itself, presents a fairly major problem at my age).

 

Would you .. knowing you as you are now... date you? What is it you believe you have to offer another person in a relationship?

 

I'm an excellent listener, very supporting of, and loyal to, those I love, I am excited, passionate, and knowledgeable about art, music, and science, I can be very loving and affectionate, and honest and direct, quite literally to a 'fault.'

 

You acknowledge you have "flaws". Are these being addressed? Are you out there being the "best" version of yourself you can be?

 

The ones I am aware of are. Firstly I want to say that I think it's great that you wrought such a positive change in your life, especially given that the obstacle you had to overcome in order to do so must have been quite entrenched by the time you resolved to do make the necessary changes. Although nowhere-near as harmful to my health, my lifelong suckitude at maths was a serious impediment both to my academic career, and confidence in such mundane situations as sorting out the correct amount of tender when purchasing something at a store. Over the last couple of years I worked very hard to increase my mathematical aptitude, and now I can deal with problems in differential equations and calculus, whereas I once struggled with basic arithmetic.

 

Add to that the effort I have expended in overcoming a rather crippling case of social anxiety, rebuilding a relationship with my father despite a history abuse and neglect, and attempting to reclaim my 'authentic self' after years of making compromises to normality out of fear -- unfortunatley for those who think I need to be more masculine, this takes me in quite the opposite direction.

 

That said, in some ways I have changed for the worse, because I am less open and emotionally available than I was, and I make less effort to reach out to those around me... this pretty much goes along with being depressed, but I won't excuse myself too much because I know that there is a volitional dimension to it: I make a conscious effort to withdraw from a world in which I am barred from the kind of love I want, and I reject other offerings of love, rather like a spoilt child when they don't get what they want, really. See, I admit that, even knowing you and others will use it against me -- like so much of what I have confessed to on these forums.

 

All the above posters have been trying to tell you is that you have the ability to choose your attitude to life.

 

Perhaps that's what you're telling me now, but that is not the only thing that others have been telling me.

 

Your attitude as you display it on these forums is flat out toxic. That's not an attack. It's an observation.

 

Flat out toxic eh... well, without knowing the specifics, it's not something I can really address. If this is how people gauge my attitude because I am a realist rather than an optimist, and I do not mince my words or shy away from defending myself against false assumptions and accusations, then that's too bad. If, however, it's something else, then do tell me.

[purgatori]

I never said any such thing. Revisit my previous posts.

I know you didn't. Sorry, I should have made it more clear that I wasn't referring to you -- but then, I didn't think that I met your last post with a 'holier-than-thou, condescending, negative attitude', either, so I assumed you must have been referring to the other comments I reacted to. Edited February 6, 2010 by purgatori

[apearlfromgrit]

Not one person who has posted here in reaction to you has perceived you as you perceive yourself. It's important to acknowledge the impact you have on others, how you come across. You have stated that you're having trouble with interpersonal relationships with women. The feedback to your tone and your written personality has been overwhelmingly negative. And yet you seem not to see that the two are related: you are having trouble with interpersonal relationships with women because you have an overwhelmingly negative impact on people. As has been suggested, overcoming this requires only that you apply yourself in a constructive way, the most difficult part of which will be identifying, confronting and dismantling, piece by piece the habits that are contributing to this negativity. It is difficult to admit, especially to oneself, that the most significant problems are often self-created. But having self-created issues isn't a personality flaw, it doesn't make you damaged or bad or wrong or less of a person. In my opinion, it makes it easier because while we cannot (and many may say, should not) change others, we can change ourselves. And in changing ourselves, we become stronger, and we become more complete people. You seem to perceive this advice as an insistence that you become someone other than yourself, that you abandon your values and assume a personality that is not your own. However, the advice is not that you become someone else, but that you become a better version of yourself. A version that isn't so easily misunderstood, a version that doesn't sour others on you, a version that isn't met with an overwhelmingly negative reaction.

[reflecting zen]

There was a member previously who wanted advice in this area but refused to do anything different or try a new strategy. There was always an excuse for not doing anything that will help him. In the end everyone else got fed up and gave up on him. Since then I haven't seen him post anything.

 

Purgatori, I'm afraid that the members here who are putting in tremendous effort for you may also give up if you're just going to keep fighting them.

[purgatori]

Not one person who has posted here in reaction to you has perceived you as you perceive yourself. It's important to acknowledge the impact you have on others, how you come across. You have stated that you're having trouble with interpersonal relationships with women. The feedback to your tone and your written personality has been overwhelmingly negative. And yet you seem not to see that the two are related: you are having trouble with interpersonal relationships with women because you have an overwhelmingly negative impact on people. As has been suggested, overcoming this requires only that you apply yourself in a constructive way, the most difficult part of which will be identifying, confronting and dismantling, piece by piece the habits that are contributing to this negativity. It is difficult to admit, especially to oneself, that the most significant problems are often self-created. But having self-created issues isn't a personality flaw, it doesn't make you damaged or bad or wrong or less of a person. In my opinion, it makes it easier because while we cannot (and many may say, should not) change others, we can change ourselves. And in changing ourselves, we become stronger, and we become more complete people. You seem to perceive this advice as an insistence that you become someone other than yourself, that you abandon your values and assume a personality that is not your own. However, the advice is not that you become someone else, but that you become a better version of yourself. A version that isn't so easily misunderstood, a version that doesn't sour others on you, a version that isn't met with an overwhelmingly negative reaction.

 

I don't understand why I have a negative impact on people... and I don't know what I can do to change that. I know that I am far from perfect, but honestly, I don't know what about me is so reprehensible.

[apearlfromgrit]

Perhaps this will help.

You are perceived as being overly defensive and unreceptive to friendly advice even when you have asked for it.

You not only reject advice, you deconstruct it in a way that is perceived as being an attack on the advice-giver.

You are perceived as having an answer for everything, as though you are unwilling to contemplate that anyone else could possibly be as intelligent as you and that other people are, therefore, less than you and unworthy of giving the advice you have asked for.

You are perceived as being hyper-critical of the interests, opinions and desires of others while demanding their wholesale acceptance, and even adoption, of your interests, opinions and desires.

You are perceived as expecting endless patience, acceptance and support from the very same people whose interests, opinions and desires you devalue.

Your devaluation of others' interests, opinions and desires is perceived as a devaluation of others **as people** and perceived as aggression against those people for simply being who they are (the very same injustice you, yourself complain of).

You are perceived as expecting perfection from others while not accepting the merest implication of unproductive behavior on your part.

You are perceived as rejecting suggestions without trying them, thereby devaluing those suggestions.

These perceptions come from your detailed deconstruction and rebuttal of each post, with a point-counterpoint rejection of all advice within, your negative language directed at the objects of your desire, and your negative language directed at the objects of their desire, your interpretation of friendly advice as a command, your characterization of friendly advice-givers as, essentially, totalitarianists that demand conformity and homogenization from you.

I suggest that the next time you read a post from someone you change your habit in responding to it (this goes for every day conversations as well): instead of saying something to the effect of "you are wrong," or "I refuse to try that" or "you don't know what you're talking about" try saying "thank you for your advice" or "I have had that thought before as well, it's interesting to hear that someone else echos my own thought process" or "would you still give this advice if you knew X or Y about me?" When you meet someone with interests, opinions or desires that are different than your own, try accepting them as the individuals they are, as you hope they would do of you, and try to, as the saying goes, walk a mile in their shoes and see if you can see the same positivity in those interests, opinions or desires as they do. If not, try to appreciate them for who they are despite your differences. When you experience a rejection try first, before all else, to understand the rejection as a person simply following their own heart and then try to understand that a romantic rejection is not a judgment upon you and not a rejection of your right to be the unique individual you are. When you find someone who attracts and intrigues you, try giving them the same time and patience to fully show themselves to you as you hope they would give to you. If you meet someone who holds different values from tyou own, try to appreciate that their right to choose their values is the same as yours. And above all else, the next time you contemplate yourself, the next time you look in the mirror, accept yourself as the person you are today and ask yourself how you can be a better person tomorrow (because no one is perfect, but it is the quest for each of our best selves that brings us closer to our own idea of perfection). And then, when you conduct yourself in your traffic and associations with others, endeavor to see that what you may once have interpreted as criticism, is simply information to help you to answer the question of how you can be a better person tomorrow.

[purgatori]

Perhaps this will help.

You are perceived as being overly defensive and unreceptive to friendly advice even when you have asked for it.

You not only reject advice, you deconstruct it in a way that is perceived as being an attack on the advice-giver.

You are perceived as having an answer for everything, as though you are unwilling to contemplate that anyone else could possibly be as intelligent as you and that other people are, therefore, less than you and unworthy of giving the advice you have asked for.

You are perceived as being hyper-critical of the interests, opinions and desires of others while demanding their wholesale acceptance, and even adoption, of your interests, opinions and desires.

You are perceived as expecting endless patience, acceptance and support from the very same people whose interests, opinions and desires you devalue.

Your devaluation of others' interests, opinions and desires is perceived as a devaluation of others **as people** and perceived as aggression against those people for simply being who they are (the very same injustice you, yourself complain of).

You are perceived as expecting perfection from others while not accepting the merest implication of unproductive behavior on your part.

You are perceived as rejecting suggestions without trying them, thereby devaluing those suggestions.

These perceptions come from your detailed deconstruction and rebuttal of each post, with a point-counterpoint rejection of all advice within, your negative language directed at the objects of your desire, and your negative language directed at the objects of their desire, your interpretation of friendly advice as a command, your characterization of friendly advice-givers as, essentially, totalitarianists that demand conformity and homogenization from you.

I suggest that the next time you read a post from someone you change your habit in responding to it (this goes for every day conversations as well): instead of saying something to the effect of "you are wrong," or "I refuse to try that" or "you don't know what you're talking about" try saying "thank you for your advice" or "I have had that thought before as well, it's interesting to hear that someone else echos my own thought process" or "would you still give this advice if you knew X or Y about me?" When you meet someone with interests, opinions or desires that are different than your own, try accepting them as the individuals they are, as you hope they would do of you, and try to, as the saying goes, walk a mile in their shoes and see if you can see the same positivity in those interests, opinions or desires as they do. If not, try to appreciate them for who they are despite your differences. When you experience a rejection try first, before all else, to understand the rejection as a person simply following their own heart and then try to understand that a romantic rejection is not a judgment upon you and not a rejection of your right to be the unique individual you are. When you find someone who attracts and intrigues you, try giving them the same time and patience to fully show themselves to you as you hope they would give to you. If you meet someone who holds different values from tyou own, try to appreciate that their right to choose their values is the same as yours. And above all else, the next time you contemplate yourself, the next time you look in the mirror, accept yourself as the person you are today and ask yourself how you can be a better person tomorrow (because no one is perfect, but it is the quest for each of our best selves that brings us closer to our own idea of perfection). And then, when you conduct yourself in your traffic and associations with others, endeavor to see that what you may once have interpreted as criticism, is simply information to help you to answer the question of how you can be a better person tomorrow.

 

Alright, thankyou. I wlll contemplate what you have written.

[apearlfromgrit]

That is immensely gratifying. And you are very welcome.

Edited February 6, 2010 by apearlfromgrit

[silverfish]

The 'why' of it would involve going into a lot of detail regarding my misgivings about current CBT-dominated therapeutic practice that I won't bore anyone with here; suffice to say that I have yet to find a therapist (excluding someone working within the psychoanalytic framework, whom I was unfortunately no longer able to see when I had to move) with whom I can communicate how much the lack of romantic love in my life pains me such

that they take it seriously, rather than assuming that my depression (which, along with social anxiety, is what I was diagnosed as suffering from)

was either endogenous or a product of childhood trauma or not being socially active enough.

 

Add to that the effort I have expended in overcoming a rather crippling case of social anxiety, rebuilding a relationship with my father despite a history abuse and neglect, and attempting to reclaim my 'authentic self' after years of making compromises to normality out of fear -- unfortunatley for those who think I need to be more masculine, this takes me in quite the opposite direction.

 

I don't understand why in the first post you say that CBT didn't help because the therapist focused on your childhood, when you then said your father was abusive and neglectful. Its good that you are rebuilding a relationship with him, but would you say that you may have trouble admitting that the way he treated you HAS affected you? It is understandable why you abhor masculinity if your father was abusive.

 

What would be less easy to get is why you would refuse to see that, in order to stop it affecting your life any more than it has so far.

 

@ apearl from grit

 

That post was amazing!

[purgatori]

The 'why' of it would involve going into a lot of detail regarding my misgivings about current CBT-dominated therapeutic practice that I won't bore anyone with here; suffice to say that I have yet to find a therapist (excluding someone working within the psychoanalytic framework, whom I was unfortunately no longer able to see when I had to move) with whom I can communicate how much the lack of romantic love in my life pains me such

that they take it seriously, rather than assuming that my depression (which, along with social anxiety, is what I was diagnosed as suffering from)

was either endogenous or a product of childhood trauma or not being socially active enough.

 

Add to that the effort I have expended in overcoming a rather crippling case of social anxiety, rebuilding a relationship with my father despite a history abuse and neglect, and attempting to reclaim my 'authentic self' after years of making compromises to normality out of fear -- unfortunatley for those who think I need to be more masculine, this takes me in quite the opposite direction.

 

I don't understand why in the first post you say that CBT didn't help because the therapist focused on your childhood, when you then said your father was abusive and neglectful. Its good that you are rebuilding a relationship with him, but would you say that you may have trouble admitting that the way he treated you HAS affected you? It is understandable why you abhor masculinity if your father was abusive.

 

What would be less easy to get is why you would refuse to see that, in order to stop it affecting your life any more than it has so far.

 

@ apearl from grit

 

That post was amazing!

 

I probably do downplay the degree to which my history with my father has affected me, yes. I know that one particularly traumatic episode involving my father has contributed to the difficulty I experience in trusting other people, and it also shattered my social/support networks at the time. Did my interactions with him contribute to my hatred of masculinity? Probably. Right from day one, I was very feminine for a boy, and he made a point of voicing his disapproval on those infrequent occasions when he was around while I was growing up. That may be while I react so defensively now when people effectively tell me to 'man up' or whatnot. He wasn't the only one who had a problem with my 'sissy' ways though, nor was he the only contributor to my dislike of masculinity.

 

One poster on these forums hit the nail on the head when she said it has a lot to do with jealousy (jealousy of the attention that masculine men receive from women that I don't). Being a student of art and philosophy/religion didn't help either, as I saw so many examples throughout the history of our species of supposedly 'great' men valorizing the male form while denigrating the female (see such figures as Aristotle, Plato, Michelangelo, or many of the sacred texts which comprise the canons of the major religions). Given my already strong affinity for women/feminity, I guess I came to see my own position as a corrective to the currents of androphilia and misogyny running through culture (the logical conclusion of which is a world without any room for femaleness itself). Unfortunately this lead to an irresolvable and unbearable contradicition in that I could not avoid the fact that the vast majority of women were themselves steeped in androphilia.

 

I'm sure all the school-yard bullying and harassment (dished out by you know which type of guys) also exerted a formative influence, but I become irritated when therapists want to focus on these events of my past, rather than either a) focusing on resolving the ongoing problem of not having any kind of romantic relationship with a woman, or b) admitting that I really don't have any hope of being with the kind of woman whom I desire, and that I should stop wasting my time and money on their services. I mean it goes deeper than that, but as I said, I don't want to enter into a whole other discussion on the merits of different psychological treatment modalities.

 

To be fair though, my current psychologist is more solutions-focused and hasn't really spent a lot of time trying to get me to dredge up my past; which I like. Outside of therapy I try not to let thoughts about the past preoccupy me over-much... and the most intrusive ones are always the ones concerning old crushes and the near-misses/false starts of my romantic life

Edited February 6, 2010 by purgatori

[silverfish]

I probably do downplay the degree to which my history with my father has affected me, yes. I know that one particularly traumatic episode involving my father has contributed to the difficulty I experience in trusting other people, and it also shattered my social/support networks at the time. Did my interactions with him contribute to my hatred of masculinity? Probably. Right from day one, I was very feminine for a boy,

 

and he made a point of voicing his disapproval on those infrequent occasions when he was around while I was growing up.

 

That may be while I react so defensively now when people effectively tell me to 'man up' or whatnot. He wasn't the only one who had a problem with my 'sissy' ways though, nor was he the only contributor to my dislike of masculinity.

 

I know you have a dislike of masculinity, but do you think that subconsciously, you also have picked up from your father's traits, eg voicing disapproval towards others?

 

One poster on these forums hit the nail on the head when she said it has a lot to do with jealousy (jealousy of the attention that masculine men receive from women that I don't). Being a student of art and philosophy/religion didn't help either, as I saw so many examples throughout the history of our species of supposedly 'great' men valorizing the male form while denigrating the female (see such figures as Aristotle, Plato, Michelangelo, or many of the sacred texts which comprise the canons of the major religions). Given my already strong affinity for women/feminity, I guess I came to see my own position as a corrective to the currents of androphilia and misogyny running through culture (the logical conclusion of which is a world without any room for femaleness itself). Unfortunately this lead to an irresolvable and unbearable contradicition in that I could not avoid the fact that the vast majority of women were themselves steeped in androphilia.

 

I'm sure all the school-yard bullying and harassment (dished out by you know which type of guys) also exerted a formative influence, but I become irritated when therapists want to focus on these events of my past, rather than either a) focusing on resolving the ongoing problem of not having any kind of romantic relationship with a woman, or b) admitting that I really don't have any hope of being with the kind of woman whom I desire, and that I should stop wasting my time and money on their services. I mean it goes deeper than that, but as I said, I don't want to enter into a whole other discussion on the merits of different psychological treatment modalities.

 

To be fair though, my current psychologist is more solutions-focused and hasn't really spent a lot of time trying to get me to dredge up my past; which I like. Outside of therapy I try not to let thoughts about the past preoccupy me over-much... and the most intrusive ones are always the ones concerning old crushes and the near-misses/false starts of my romantic life

 

This is a positive sign. I'm not at all saying that dredging up the past would be a positive thing. I think its more that it could be helpful for you to be able to recognise that SOME of your feelings are simply the natural product of your childhood. Believe me, once you can pinpoint that, it becomes like a freckle on your arm, it's just there, and it stops consuming you. It means you can start to recognise when those emotions are clouding your judgment, and when you start to generalise about 'men' or 'women' you have a sort of mental speed bump that makes you slow down. I am speaking from experience, but sometimes when we empathise with someone, we mistakenly relate their experience to ours or vice versa. Its usually done with good intentions though