Heroes or villains?

[pureinheart]

I think this is an interesting point. Although not a Firefighter, Police man etc...I believe xMM was all about looks and power. He was and still is a control freak. He is a business owner of a very popular gym, has flashy cars and is very well known in his industry. I can certainly see the correlation. Sometimes he would even talk about how people liked him so much. Like he had to keep proving something to himself... talk himself up

 

That is so sad, he didn't feel good about himself for some reason, and I'm sure people did for real like him, he didn't.

[RedDevil66]

That is so sad, he didn't feel good about himself for some reason, and I'm sure people did for real like him, he didn't.

 

you assess many people who don't know as not feeling good about themselves.....odd huh!

[jennie-jennie]

every human on the planet has mental issue and thing we need to work out.

But there is a difference between mental issues and acting out in some psychotic way.

 

I would rather use the term dysfunctionality than "mental issue". I have read that 95% of humans are more or less dysfunctional. Then of course on top of that we have people who are neurotic or psychotic, but that is a different issue.

 

One way for children from a dysfunctional family to manage is to become the hero. The other ways are the clown, the wallflower and the rebel. So what if these MM, the ones who are truly torn between love and commitment, are "the heroes"? They can not bring themselves to become "the bad guy" in everyone's eyes - the guy who divorces his wife, but neither can they resist their new love, so they stay in the marriage and engage in an affair instead. They have kept their survival technique - being the hero, the guy who does everything right - intact, and still they get the woman they want.

[jennie-jennie]

And to connect to the topic of the thread, being a firefighter might be the ultimate way for the child from a dysfunctional family to be the hero, don't you think?

[RedDevil66]

I would rather use the term dysfunctionality than "mental issue". I have read that 95% of humans are more or less dysfunctional. Then of course on top of that we have people who are neurotic or psychotic, but that is a different issue.

 

One way for children from a dysfunctional family to manage is to become the hero. The other ways are the clown, the wallflower and the rebel. So what if these MM, the ones who are truly torn between love and commitment, are "the heroes"? They can not bring themselves to become "the bad guy" in everyone's eyes - the guy who divorces his wife, but neither can they resist their new love, so they stay in the marriage and engage in an affair instead. They have kept their survival technique - being the hero, the guy who does everything right - intact, and still they get the woman they want.

 

it can be labeled either way, but yes bottom line, the human ego is "broken" if you will.

[RedDevil66]

And to connect to the topic of the thread, being a firefighter might be the ultimate way for the child from a dysfunctional family to be the hero, don't you think?

 

Of course, that is totally a possibility. I think kids from broken homes or just kids with low self worth can go into professions where they can help people and are genuine about it.

 

I'm actually in medical school and why, not cause I need to be a hero, but because I almost died of an illness 3 yrs ago and wanted to help myself, now I'm taking healing as a career to help others.

 

So yes, some do get into these "power" positions for the right reasons. But if a person gets into these professions wanting to be a hero and this person is mentally unstable, this is where their power positions can turn into their "play ground" for abuse.

[crazycatlady]

I know a lot of spouses who cheat who are married to military people. I know many many military members who have cheated. I can think of a few who haven't, most have that I know. I think with the military its the oppertunity that is the main reason. Even if they never deploy overseas they do a lot of time away from home for different training.

 

While we were in Germany though, it was a huge issue with other spouses cheating. They busted like 20 spouses in housing in like a week time period.

 

I never worried about H cheating while deployed. He always said you don't **** where you eat. We have known a few people to get into messes due to cheating. On a side note the OW in our triangle, previously had an A with a MM who was also an EMT attached to a firestation, and I think she also had an A with a FF, and had a couple of ONS with cops.

 

CCL

[Lizzie60]

I agree...I don't know about the firefighters in Canada, Lizzie, but in the US, most of them are HAWT! there is a reason why they have their own..er. eye candy calendar, you know.

 

I must be picky because I have rarely seen a 'hawt' FF... the ones that are really hawt are mostly the young 20 yr old.. and they know they are so...so their egos are huge..

 

The hot ones are the ones that cheat.. cause all the women are drooling over them..

 

I've seen many FF on dating sites... eewwww... they put it in their profile thinking they might get more women... but they stay there for ages..

[OWoman]

His colleagues all cheated, in fact we were once discussing this topic and I asked him to name someone he worked with who had not cheated and he couldn't. It was almost a 'cheating culture' and it was hard keeping up with it all.

 

Hmmm... I definitely think some environments have more of this than others. Perhaps, in some cases, because the type of work / type of person drawn to that work is more likely to be open to "cheating" (like, say, firefighting, policing, or the military) while in other cases simply because the environment is more open minded and so more tolerant to "deviations" from the polite societal norm - like universities, the arts, the film industry... Certainly, in the environments I've worked, it's never been anything rare or uncommon, nor has it been anything anyone's felt "ashamed" of or felt they needed to hide. While the overtness may have made it SEEM more common, I'd guess that it also led to it BEING more common, since there was no censure, no disapproval and no threat.

[I Miss the Kiss]

And to connect to the topic of the thread, being a firefighter might be the ultimate way for the child from a dysfunctional family to be the hero, don't you think?

 

JJ- Absolutely! My xMM came from what I would call a dysfunctional family. His father is LOADED. His family has boats, cars, vacation homes-- you name it. But over the A, xMM told me many times that he felt he could never please his father. If xMM didn't do what was expected, his father would withhold priviliges and attention. Maybe not overtly, but it happened. His father was also working NONSTOP through xMM's childhood.

 

So, as for the hero issue, YES. I do believe that in my xMM's case he feels very much in control of his career (especially since he is an officer) . He also can't leave his family because that wouldn't be a very "hero" thing to do, would it?! So he lives the double life, the happy family and the true love on the side.

 

I do feel sorry for him. I really do. We all have our issues, but he is far more troubled than I had realized.

[OWoman]

I would tend to agree. I think that there are definitely personality types that respond to a challenge. They type of men that get everything they want how they want it...and then all of the sudden they meet their match...very sexy. Actually, it kind of turns me on. Uh oh .

 

I see you changed your avatar to match

 

Yes it is. Judging from my colleagues it is more then just a cliche.

 

When my son started university, they were asked in class why they chose psych. Most of them said, "to help people", and the lecturer replied, "if you want to help someone, go and work in a call centre."

 

Hmmmm. Well. I think that many things that make a man very attractive to the opposite sex are the same men that have success in certain careers. I think the more attractive you are, the more opportunity you have. Of course this is not applicable to everyone but is a rough theory..well maybe more of a correlation. You're the researcher OW help a brotha out!

 

It's certainly true that (all other things controlled for) attractive people get hired / promoted ahead of less attractive people. And it's also true that people tend to hire / promote in their own image. So you would tend to get a disproportionate grouping of attractive people at or near the top, by extension of that logic. But As are not about attractiveness alone - some attractive people don't have As, even though they may have more opportunity (by virtue of more people hitting on them) than some less attractive people, who do.

 

I suspect, in guys at least, that testosterone levels are somehow implicated. Testosterone makes guys more virile, and it makes them more driven to succeed, and it makes them more sexually aggressive / more prone to greater numbers of sexual partners.

 

In women, testosterone also makes for more drive and initiative, more sexual aggression, etc... but whether or not it makes them more attractive to men I wouldn't know. Clearly a very virile woman - like Andrea Dworkin to the power n - would arouse fear rather than lust in a man (well, most men...), but a woman with just a tad more testosterone who still looks female...? Not sure.

 

They were probably sick of being with someone that was living in a controlled and measured way. Some therapists can be very boring because they are always trying to regulate emotions. Maybe they just wanted to be with someone passionate. Or maybe you were just a lot hotter.

 

One thing I am certainly not is controlled or measured! (Is controlled better or worse than controlling? )

[OWoman]

Well...I don't know if it is evil...but it is just not even fair and will lead to losing your license. However, it happens all the time. Go look at your state regulatory agencies website sometime. Number one infraction in every state...male therapist sleeping with a female client.

 

I can see how it happens. When I was just starting out as an intern the second case I had was a young lady that was in an abusive relationship. So here she is, all beaten down, low self esteem, and I am a man that is kind, empathic, and I listen to her. So one day she gets a haircut and I say "oh you cut your hair, it looks nice." That was it! So next session she comes in with a mini skirt and is working those legs...no lie! She was also drop dead gorgeous...did I mention that? So anyways...we had to address it next session. She told me that she just liked me so much and that I was so nice and she wanted me to like her. Luckily we were able to work out these issues in therapy and it lead to some breakthroughs...but...I can see how it can happen.

 

Isn't that the basis of transference?

[Devil Inside]

Isn't that the basis of transference?

 

Yup, I was one of many men she tried to seduce to gain acceptance. The acceptance she wanted was that of her father.

[OWoman]

Yup, I was one of many men she tried to seduce to gain acceptance. The acceptance she wanted was that of her father.

 

Well, good thing you steered clear of that one. Not only would it have been unethical, it would also have been illegal (incest )

[NowhereToHide]

I see you changed your avatar to match

 

When my son started university, they were asked in class why they chose psych. Most of them said, "to help people", and the lecturer replied, "if you want to help someone, go and work in a call centre."

 

It's certainly true that (all other things controlled for) attractive people get hired / promoted ahead of less attractive people. And it's also true that people tend to hire / promote in their own image. So you would tend to get a disproportionate grouping of attractive people at or near the top, by extension of that logic. But As are not about attractiveness alone - some attractive people don't have As, even though they may have more opportunity (by virtue of more people hitting on them) than some less attractive people, who do.

 

I suspect, in guys at least, that testosterone levels are somehow implicated. Testosterone makes guys more virile, and it makes them more driven to succeed, and it makes them more sexually aggressive / more prone to greater numbers of sexual partners.

 

In women, testosterone also makes for more drive and initiative, more sexual aggression, etc... but whether or not it makes them more attractive to men I wouldn't know. Clearly a very virile woman - like Andrea Dworkin to the power n - would arouse fear rather than lust in a man (well, most men...), but a woman with just a tad more testosterone who still looks female...? Not sure.

 

One thing I am certainly not is controlled or measured! (Is controlled better or worse than controlling? )

 

 

Okay... I'll jump in since this subject is pretty interesting....

 

There have been several studies conducted about exactly what makes females attractive to men. From what I recall, they actually suspect it is estrogen and NOT testosterone that influences this. When it comes right down to it, men are attracted to women that look FERTILE. So women that look health and typically voluptuous (as breasts and hips are indicators of fertility) -- these are traits not typically associated with testosterone (which tends to actually make women have more facial hair, thicker waists, larger bone structure, etc). Yes, they still look like women -- I think the distinctions are subtle actually -- but they might not have that "traditional" attractiveness maybe? Not sure.

 

That said, women with higher levels of testosterone are much more likely to be ambitious and assertive and choose traditionally "male" careers in business and finance. AND they're also likely to want more sex more often.

 

So... maybe these women with higher testosterone levels, who are in higher ranking positions, are having affairs at the same rate as their male counterparts? Who knows. They certainly seem to have the sex drive for it.

[bentnotbroken]

Opppps...I did see the sarcasm NID, although did not see the bold...ok see what you mean...what I meant was and left out is that the demeanor with the OW is judgmental and condescending and with each other you guys are cool with each other....can't describe it exactly, although if the OW doesnot agree with BS's then you can feel the hatred towards them.

 

Like I said I don't read the infidelity board much, like maybe 1 time out of every 100 times while on LS, but that "one" time I can just feel the anger and hatred, although this is cool because it is for people with infidelity issues and anger is common. Some BS's bring that over in the OM/OW forum.

 

Ok most BS's hate cheating, well I say don't just hate OW and OM, hate all forms of cheating and lying...then reach an agreement that the one who hates cheating (in ANY form) must hate them self also, as we have all cheated in some form or fashion.

 

 

I am curious about this statement. How is hating cheating= to hating ow/om. And I would like to know what forms of cheating we have all committed and if that includes childhood(before puberty, after puberty)teen years, young adulthood....what?

[Devil Inside]

Well, good thing you steered clear of that one. Not only would it have been unethical, it would also have been illegal (incest )

 

 

Well that depends on the role she played in my projection. Actually...yikes..now that I think about it, it is wrong all the way around.

[OWoman]

Okay... I'll jump in since this subject is pretty interesting....

 

There have been several studies conducted about exactly what makes females attractive to men. From what I recall, they actually suspect it is estrogen and NOT testosterone that influences this. When it comes right down to it, men are attracted to women that look FERTILE. So women that look health and typically voluptuous (as breasts and hips are indicators of fertility) -- these are traits not typically associated with testosterone (which tends to actually make women have more facial hair, thicker waists, larger bone structure, etc). Yes, they still look like women -- I think the distinctions are subtle actually -- but they might not have that "traditional" attractiveness maybe? Not sure.

 

That said, women with higher levels of testosterone are much more likely to be ambitious and assertive and choose traditionally "male" careers in business and finance. AND they're also likely to want more sex more often.

 

So... maybe these women with higher testosterone levels, who are in higher ranking positions, are having affairs at the same rate as their male counterparts? Who knows. They certainly seem to have the sex drive for it.

 

AFAIK from my reading of evolutionary psychology (a field of rather dubious academic standing, it must be said) the only "universal" (ie independent of culture, consistent across all cultures and times) standard of "beauty" or attractiveness in a woman is a waist-to-hip ratio of 0.7, which is taken as a proxy for fertility (since the hips are narrower relative to the waist before puberty; the waist thickens after menopause; and a higher waist-to-hip ratio in between puberty and menopause is likely to indicate overweight / obesity, and thus a lesser chance of a successful pregnancy). Things like facial symmetry etc also feature, but less consistently.

 

Not all "driven" women have thick waists or facial hair - I'm sure it's possible for a woman to have a higher-than-average-for-a-woman level of androgens without pushing into the butch spectrum. Would such a woman be more or less attractive to males than a lower-testosterone woman who just wants to make a home and breed babies?

 

Or, would they be attractive to males for different purposes - the high-drive woman for hot passionate sex (an A, maybe) and the low-drive woman as a nice wifey to cook and clean and raise the kids?

[OWoman]

Well that depends on the role she played in my projection. Actually...yikes..now that I think about it, it is wrong all the way around.

 

Come on, 'fess up....

[Ellin]

My ex best friend has been in a lon-term R with a MM, whom she's got a child with (ex best friend because he forbids her to contact me).

 

He's a professional soldier.

 

I told her story to my friend and he did some research - apparently seamen top the unfaithful chart, military men are next.

 

Maybe it's to do with the fact that they have more opportunities?

[Virgo1982]

AFAIK from my reading of evolutionary psychology (a field of rather dubious academic standing, it must be said) the only "universal" (ie independent of culture, consistent across all cultures and times) standard of "beauty" or attractiveness in a woman is a waist-to-hip ratio of 0.7, which is taken as a proxy for fertility (since the hips are narrower relative to the waist before puberty; the waist thickens after menopause; and a higher waist-to-hip ratio in between puberty and menopause is likely to indicate overweight / obesity, and thus a lesser chance of a successful pregnancy). Things like facial symmetry etc also feature, but less consistently.

 

Not all "driven" women have thick waists or facial hair - I'm sure it's possible for a woman to have a higher-than-average-for-a-woman level of androgens without pushing into the butch spectrum. Would such a woman be more or less attractive to males than a lower-testosterone woman who just wants to make a home and breed babies?

 

Or, would they be attractive to males for different purposes - the high-drive woman for hot passionate sex (an A, maybe) and the low-drive woman as a nice wifey to cook and clean and raise the kids?

 

I think they're attracted, but find it hard to trust these women because they see themselves in her. For example, men will have a one night stand with a woman and say she is not "wife material." I think that is so funny because he expects more from a woman than he expects from himself.

[NoIDidn't]

Please enlighten us on what you speak.

 

Opppps...I did see the sarcasm NID, although did not see the bold...ok see what you mean...what I meant was and left out is that the demeanor with the OW is judgmental and condescending and with each other you guys are cool with each other....can't describe it exactly, although if the OW doesnot agree with BS's then you can feel the hatred towards them.

 

Like I said I don't read the infidelity board much, like maybe 1 time out of every 100 times while on LS, but that "one" time I can just feel the anger and hatred, although this is cool because it is for people with infidelity issues and anger is common. Some BS's bring that over in the OM/OW forum.

 

Ok most BS's hate cheating, well I say don't just hate OW and OM, hate all forms of cheating and lying...then reach an agreement that the one who hates cheating (in ANY form) must hate them self also, as we have all cheated in some form or fashion.

 

I missed this from earlier. There was no sarcasm in my question, so you have to blame your own personal filter for that. Not me.

 

As to the relationship between BSs (BW and BH) towards each other, it could be that you are just witnessing shared compassion because of a common experience that is shared between them. Much like that witnessed between OWs here.

 

And what you call "hatred" is likely frustration with the mindset that befalls many when in an affair.

 

I think its really unfortunate that you are unable to see how your perception of "us" has colored your posts to us. Nothing but judgment in the post that I responded to and the one that's quoted in this post, but I am chastised by you for sarcasm.

 

Pure, the BSs have something of value to give to this board. We are not the villians here.

[OWoman]

I think they're attracted, but find it hard to trust these women because they see themselves in her. For example, men will have a one night stand with a woman and say she is not "wife material." I think that is so funny because he expects more from a woman than he expects from himself.

 

Virgo I so wish you were right about that.... Sadly, my experience as a high-drive woman was otherwise. While all I wanted was something physical (ONS or whatever, depending) they'd be wanting to shove a ring on my finger and their babies in my uterus I've certainly never seen myself as "wife material" (I still don't, though my H seems to think otherwise) but it seemed that guys just don't get that a woman can want something other than M from them. While I just wanted an O (OK, more than one ) they wanted a lifetime commitment.

[pureinheart]

I missed this from earlier. There was no sarcasm in my question' date=' [b']so you have to blame your own personal filter for that.[/b] Not me.

 

As to the relationship between BSs (BW and BH) towards each other, it could be that you are just witnessing shared compassion because of a common experience that is shared between them. Much like that witnessed between OWs here.

 

And what you call "hatred" is likely frustration with the mindset that befalls many when in an affair.

 

I think its really unfortunate that you are unable to see how your perception of "us" has colored your posts to us. Nothing but judgment in the post that I responded to and the one that's quoted in this post, but I am chastised by you for sarcasm.

 

Pure, the BSs have something of value to give to this board. We are not the villians here.

 

To me what is in bold is sarcastic also to me. Also the question you asked to me was dripping with sarcasm...for me to enlighten everyone.

 

It is my opinion based on what I have seen in this forum. An individual posts (and this is some, not all) and is either immediately put on the defensive, or shortly into the post and man they get nailed. It is very disturbing and disheartening to see this. The majority is BS's telling the other woman how jacked up she is for being in the affair, or a reformed OW....been there done that. Now if this were on the infidelity board, I could see certain replies like this, although this is the OW/OM forum.

 

Sometimes, by the way the BS's come off, or those who want to reform OW put themselves in a very bad light....not with some by what they say, although the agenda behind it. We are not going to change anyone, in fact the only thing we can do is to give an opinion and leave it at that.

 

Some of the BS's behavior concerning D-Day seem quite normal to some if not all of you and it is very unusual to me, also it seems controlling....here again, this is my opinion....it's ok for me to have my own opinion. I realise that "having my own opinion" in the infidelity forum would be offensive to the BS's, and so this type of thing....such as the keylogging and such I can state that here because of the nature of this forum.

 

You have seen the threads here of the bashing of OW and if you deny it, there is something very wrong.

 

I don't want to be your villian in the infidelity forum, so all I have been asking is that the BS's or those who want to reform OW have the same respect.

[OWoman]

Could we try to keep this more or less on-topic, please?

 

Perhaps someone could start a spin-off thread called "BashFest for OWs and BWs to nail each other" where those kind of issues can be aired - but to have the umpteenth thread shut down because it degenerates into yet another bashfest doesn't strike me as particularly productive.

 

As are a sensitive matter. OWs and BWs hold very different interests - diametrically opposed, in fact. It's natural that there will be disagreement. But it doesn't always need to nosedive into a war. Constructive discussions are actually possible IF PEOPLE STICK TO THE TOPIC IN HAND and stay off the "all [insert category here] are X" and "all [insert category here] are Y" hobbyhorse.