For the men

[lordWilhelm]

I think what mem is saying is that you have certain needs that you need to communicate to her. You shouldn't hope to earn her respect and that she should mindread your needs -- and by being upfront (but also gentle) about your needs to her, she'll have respect for you.

[Woggle]

I'm sorry that you were hurt. I did not hurt you. If you do not understand the concept of wanting to be a better man FOR YOURSELF FIRST, then this thread is not for you at all.

 

I know that you did not hurt me but your perspective is of a man who has yet to be put through the grinder. You have to yet to give your all to a woman only to chew it up and spit it back in your face. After you experience that then you can talk to me about the proper way to treat a woman.

[lordWilhelm]

Also being a better man is so abstract. What does "better" mean?

 

You need to be more concrete with your goals. Look at yourself and see what needs improving. Am I being too selfish in my relationship? Then I need to learn to share things with her more. Or, am I being overly nice? Then I need to stand up for myself more.

 

It's a feedback process and you need to filter her cues to see what you need to do to tweak the relationship dynamics.

[Jeff1962]

I know that you did not hurt me but your perspective is of a man who has yet to be put through the grinder. You have to yet to give your all to a woman only to chew it up and spit it back in your face. After you experience that then you can talk to me about the proper way to treat a woman.

 

Friend. I hope that I never have to experience this as you have. I can only imagine the damage that has been done. I will have a good thought for you.

 

I want you to understand that my OP was meant for me/we as men to better OURSELVES no matter the outcome or circumstances. We owe this to ourselves. A woman compliments a man but she does not define who a man is. If we do not attempt to understand ourselves as men then we cannot ever understand women.

[Woggle]

Friend. I hope that I never have to experience this as you have. I can only imagine the damage that has been done. I will have a good thought for you.

 

I want you to understand that my OP was meant for me/we as men to better OURSELVES no matter the outcome or circumstances. We owe this to ourselves. A woman compliments a man but she does not define who a man is. If we do not attempt to understand ourselves as men then we cannot ever understand women.

 

As men we owe it to ourselves to create the best life for us and not gamble our future away on some chick who will betray us the first chance she gets which is what you are suggesting men do.

[Simon Attwood]

As men we owe it to ourselves to create the best life for us and not gamble our future away on some chick who will betray us the first chance she gets which is what you are suggesting men do.

 

 

Woggle,

 

Although we all have the potential for the demon in us to emerge when we perceive threat, whether in the physical, emotional or psychological domain. Not all women are quite so uninhibited at letting that demon out as your ex was. Some have learned a modicum of control and maturity over their primitive selves.

 

And besides, no one let's their demon out without a modicum of provocation.

[lordWilhelm]

You guys are both pissing me off. Stuffing your head with over-generalizations like these is a BAD idea.

[Jeff1962]

As men we owe it to ourselves to create the best life for us and not gamble our future away on some chick who will betray us the first chance she gets which is what you are suggesting men do.

 

Dude. No. Not at all. I guess I am having trouble communicating with you.

[Jeff1962]

You guys are both pissing me off. Stuffing your head with over-generalizations like these is a BAD idea.

 

Who's over generalizing? Would you prefer that I write a three page description? If you cannot grasp the concept of being a better man for yourself then so be it.

[nddb]

LMFAO

 

Dude, you've got to learn to have thick skin on the net.

 

Second, this is a public board. You start a thread, every Tom, Dick, and Harry will post on it if they want to.

 

Third, this thread is getting weirder every time it pops up to the top. I'm sorry I chimed in. I guess I'm not a real man so I'll leave now so the "real man" can have his soapbox back.

[Buttnutter100]

Wow.

 

I actually don't believe that on a daily basis it really helps to view life with a woman as a Valentine's card. It's too abstract, too sentimental. Unreal.

 

A woman is not a rose--i.e. not an abstract object of beauty. She is a real person.

 

Surprising in a thread like this, no one has mentioned the man's obligation to satisfy the woman's sexual needs. IMO this is the No. 1 "obligation" the man has to his woman. (It's a fun obligation but it's an obligation.)

 

A man shows a woman he loves her by satisfying her sexually. Conversely if he can't do that most likely no matter what else he does the relationship will fail or will be bad if it doesn't fail.

 

You cherish your woman, you show her how much you love her, by giving her orgasms. You also show her you love her by having an orgasm in response to what she is doing.

 

All the lovey dovey stuff, the roses, etc etc is not an end in itself. It is a build up, part of the foreplay, leading up to the actual love-making.

 

When people have affairs, frequently sex plays a very central role. It is just not platonic or idealized ideas of love. It is talking dirty on the telephone, sexting, getting a motel...you get the picture.

 

If your sex life is no good then nothing else is good. If your woman's sex life is no good then your job is to fix that if you can. No amount of flowers and boxes of candy can substitute for a good roll in the hay.

 

Now obviously the man has other obligations. Traditionally that would be to bring in enough money to keep a roof over your woman's head, food on the table, the lights and heat turned on, and hopefully a few luxury items as well. I.e. be a provider of material well being.

 

Another obligation the man has is to not degrade his woman by cheating on her. Keep your sexual energies restricted to your partner (isn't one woman hard enough to satisfy in bed? C'mon guys.)

 

If you are not having satisfying sex a minimum of 2-3 times a week then you are not fulfilling your male obligations.

 

If your wife turns you down, acts frigid, denies sex, etc., then your primary job is to figure out what is going on and get that fixed right away. The woman NEEDS sex from you even if she doesn't know that or won't admit that. Ultimately if necessary the male has to confront and challenge the female sexually and educate her that regular sexual relations are a necessary part of the relationship.

 

Obviously if you are turning down your woman for sex more than very infrequently you are screwing up big time. Never turn her down two days in a row that's for sure.

 

Then the man's other major job is to let the woman care for the man's needs. Let her cook for you, clean for you, and take care of you. She will happily do these things if you satisfy her sexual needs.

 

A woman needs nothing else, wants nothing else, than what I have posted here.

[Simon Attwood]

A woman needs nothing else, wants nothing else, than what I have posted here.

 

 

So, those Christian Louboutin shoes I bought my wife for Christmas can go back to the shop

[Buttnutter100]

So, those Christian Louboutin shoes I bought my wife for Christmas can go back to the shop

 

No, I did say part of the man's job is to provide for the woman's material needs including some luxuries if possible. Which you have done.

 

However, a thousand pair of shoes will not make up for an unsatisfactory sex life.

[Simon Attwood]

No, I did say part of the man's job is to provide for the woman's material needs including some luxuries if possible. Which you have done.

 

However, a thousand pair of shoes will not make up for an unsatisfactory sex life.

 

 

How did you know how many pairs of shoes my wife has?

[giotto]

All men on this thread... may I ask you:

 

How long have you been married?

and

Is this your 1st, 2nd, 3rd wife?

 

thanks

 

1st wife, together 24 years, married 19...

[mem11363]

Jeff,

That wasn't his point. You don't need to write a 3 pager on your self improvement plan. And there is nothing wrong with improving - with the main goal being to improve - hoping that as a side effect you will also stop being sexually frozen out by your wife. However, unless you have a specific plan for improvement, you are lost before you start. Trying harder is not a recipe for marital improvement.

 

You sure do seem angry. I empathize with you. Wife and I had some sexual issues a few years back that caused me to be very tense for the 1-2 years that the problem lasted. The thing is you seem to want people to agree with your theory that by simply being sweeter, more loving, more romantic your wife will see you as a better husband/more desirable. Hand on the bible I wish that was how it worked. By nature that is how I LIKE to be. Thing is my wife is like many women she REQUIRES a certain amount of conflict. It creates desire in her. Real true passion. Our version of conflict is different then other folks - no yelling screaming/physical violence etc. But a harsh and determined posture and sometimes a day or two of LC until someone (almost always wife) initiates peace talks. And I mostly - way more then half the time - take the blame. BUT I don't say "uncle". And yes she also wants/needs to be overpowered in bed - sometimes spanked.

 

If I was sweet/loving/conflict avoidant with her all the time, she would HATE that. When she is aggressive she wants/NEEDS an aggressive/strong response.

 

Very few women are able to remain lustful for a conflict avoidant male which is how you come across. When my wife lost desire for me, she still had sex with me every 5 days or so - which was the bare minimum I could tolerate and for sure more then she wanted. I didn't have a plan either. But I went to the gym/got more fit and stronger from lifting and acted more aggressive in a good way. Voila - desire returned.

 

Who's over generalizing? Would you prefer that I write a three page description? If you cannot grasp the concept of being a better man for yourself then so be it.

[giotto]

A man shows a woman he loves her by satisfying her sexually. Conversely if he can't do that most likely no matter what else he does the relationship will fail or will be bad if it doesn't fail.

 

You cherish your woman, you show her how much you love her, by giving her orgasms. You also show her you love her by having an orgasm in response to what she is doing.

 

If your sex life is no good then nothing else is good. If your woman's sex life is no good then your job is to fix that if you can. No amount of flowers and boxes of candy can substitute for a good roll in the hay.

 

 

If you are not having satisfying sex a minimum of 2-3 times a week then you are not fulfilling your male obligations.

 

If your wife turns you down, acts frigid, denies sex, etc., then your primary job is to figure out what is going on and get that fixed right away. The woman NEEDS sex from you even if she doesn't know that or won't admit that. Ultimately if necessary the male has to confront and challenge the female sexually and educate her that regular sexual relations are a necessary part of the relationship.

 

Obviously if you are turning down your woman for sex more than very infrequently you are screwing up big time. Never turn her down two days in a row that's for sure.

 

Then the man's other major job is to let the woman care for the man's needs. Let her cook for you, clean for you, and take care of you. She will happily do these things if you satisfy her sexual needs.

 

A woman needs nothing else, wants nothing else, than what I have posted here.

 

so, butternutter, the man has to be a real man and give the wife multiple orgasms. He should never deny her sex... it's his duty to sexually satisfy his wife... but if the wife refuses him sex, he has to find the reason for this?

[Jeff1962]

Very few women are able to remain lustful for a conflict avoidant male which is how you come across. When my wife lost desire for me, she still had sex with me every 5 days or so - which was the bare minimum I could tolerate and for sure more then she wanted. I didn't have a plan either. But I went to the gym/got more fit and stronger from lifting and acted more aggressive in a good way. Voila - desire returned.

 

 

No Mem. I do not avoid conflict at all. I'm not planning on becoming a sweetie, sweetie candy assed husband. I do have a plan to improve myself.

[redtail]

All men on this thread... may I ask you:

 

How long have you been married?

and

Is this your 1st, 2nd, 3rd wife?

 

thanks

 

21 years to my first "wife", divorced after she cheated and lied once too often. And I am now married to my 2nd wife going on 9 years.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Wow.

 

I actually don't believe that on a daily basis it really helps to view life with a woman as a Valentine's card. It's too abstract, too sentimental. Unreal.

 

A woman is not a rose--i.e. not an abstract object of beauty. She is a real person.

 

Surprising in a thread like this, no one has mentioned the man's obligation to satisfy the woman's sexual needs. IMO this is the No. 1 "obligation" the man has to his woman. (It's a fun obligation but it's an obligation.)

 

A man shows a woman he loves her by satisfying her sexually. Conversely if he can't do that most likely no matter what else he does the relationship will fail or will be bad if it doesn't fail.

 

You cherish your woman, you show her how much you love her, by giving her orgasms. You also show her you love her by having an orgasm in response to what she is doing.

 

All the lovey dovey stuff, the roses, etc etc is not an end in itself. It is a build up, part of the foreplay, leading up to the actual love-making.

 

When people have affairs, frequently sex plays a very central role. It is just not platonic or idealized ideas of love. It is talking dirty on the telephone, sexting, getting a motel...you get the picture.

 

If your sex life is no good then nothing else is good. If your woman's sex life is no good then your job is to fix that if you can. No amount of flowers and boxes of candy can substitute for a good roll in the hay.

 

Now obviously the man has other obligations. Traditionally that would be to bring in enough money to keep a roof over your woman's head, food on the table, the lights and heat turned on, and hopefully a few luxury items as well. I.e. be a provider of material well being.

 

Another obligation the man has is to not degrade his woman by cheating on her. Keep your sexual energies restricted to your partner (isn't one woman hard enough to satisfy in bed? C'mon guys.)

 

If you are not having satisfying sex a minimum of 2-3 times a week then you are not fulfilling your male obligations.

 

If your wife turns you down, acts frigid, denies sex, etc., then your primary job is to figure out what is going on and get that fixed right away. The woman NEEDS sex from you even if she doesn't know that or won't admit that. Ultimately if necessary the male has to confront and challenge the female sexually and educate her that regular sexual relations are a necessary part of the relationship.

 

Obviously if you are turning down your woman for sex more than very infrequently you are screwing up big time. Never turn her down two days in a row that's for sure.

 

Then the man's other major job is to let the woman care for the man's needs. Let her cook for you, clean for you, and take care of you. She will happily do these things if you satisfy her sexual needs.

 

A woman needs nothing else, wants nothing else, than what I have posted here.

 

I'm flabbergasted reading this, laughing out loud..... Just how many and how good must these orgasms be????? Is that all I need to do????

 

As for the OP....... I have no idea where this post is coming from or why it was posted..... How about simply loving and cherishing your spouse.... Sorry no hallmark card here.....

 

BTW Lizzie, what are your thoughts????? Me 23 years living together/married...... Dreading the end that you seem certain is coming if my spouse has 1% in her DNA of your outlook on marriage and men....

[JamesM]

 

I have made a decision to start a personal journey to become a real man for myself so that I can be the man that my wife deserves. I owe this to myself and I owe this to her.

 

Beautiful words. After reading some of your other threads, I can understand why you are grasping at this as a way to change your sex life. And anyone here who has read my threads/posts knows I say this with great understanding and as someone who has been on a "journey" to change my marriage.

 

But I think I have about reached the end of my journey with no change in sight. I have not given up just yet, but it is getting close.

 

A couple of quotes from your past threads define why you are taking this journey for me and why I wonder if it will work:

 

My wife told me the other nite that she felt that I need someone who is more sexual.

 

After twenty years, why do you think you can change her now?

 

I have this sexual fantasy that will not let go of me.

 

I've tried talking to her about this. She will have nothing to do with it at all.

 

Has it always been this way? The fantasy you had is not perverted in the slightest. It is just another way of doing sex. Even with my wife over the years, we have done many things that were a little on the wild side. And truthfully, even now IF she were in the mood, she would have no problem with such a fantasy.

 

What can you do to get her even interested in talking and discussing sex let alone doing more of it?

 

 

 

Two comments....

1. Changing yourself with the intention of changing her will only lead to frustration. Change yourself with the intention of being a better you and with the intention of perhaps even pleasing OTHER women. (Yes, I said that). This does not mean you will cheat, but doing your change as a way to re-attract your wife will end in maybe a temporary change on her part (as I experienced) or no change. Then you will become who you once were and even be more depressed.

 

2. How do you define "a real man?" And why do you not think you are a real man now?

 

The man who can not just write this but truly LIVE it day in and day out' date=' every waking moment - he will be rewarded with a partner who meets all of his needs in every way shape and form![/quote']

 

ONLY if his wife responds to such words in the way that Jeff (or any man) desires. My wife will tell you that I am the above in many ways (and I don't say that with arrogance...I say it because she has told me more than once), yet it does not make her sexually passionate for me at all. I know she deeply loves me as a friend and companion and even as a husband, but her sexual libido has not responded to such measures.

 

All men on this thread... may I ask you:

 

How long have you been married?

and

Is this your 1st, 2nd, 3rd wife?

 

thanks

 

Jeff, please read my response to his question because it may surprise you are much alike we are.... (Lizzie already knows the answer, I think)...

 

I have been married for twenty years this May (Yes, Jeff, just like you) , and this is my first wife (and so far I plan it to be my only wife).

 

I think some of you men on here are a bunch of pussies in my opinion. You don't know how to treat women, you don't know how to be men so you lash out. Bugger off to many of you.

 

Define why you think the men here are a bunch of pussies and why do you think your description in the first post does not define you as one? How do you think you will separate yourself from the rest of us "pussies" and become a "real man?"

 

Interested to see how your journey works and where it will take you.

[Buttnutter100]

How did you know how many pairs of shoes my wife has?

 

Is her name Imelda by any chance?

[Jeff1962]

Beautiful words. After reading some of your other threads, I can understand why you are grasping at this as a way to change your sex life. And anyone here who has read my threads/posts knows I say this with great understanding and as someone who has been on a "journey" to change my marriage.

 

But I think I have about reached the end of my journey with no change in sight. I have not given up just yet, but it is getting close.

 

A couple of quotes from your past threads define why you are taking this journey for me and why I wonder if it will work:

 

 

 

After twenty years, why do you think you can change her now?

 

 

 

Has it always been this way? The fantasy you had is not perverted in the slightest. It is just another way of doing sex. Even with my wife over the years, we have done many things that were a little on the wild side. And truthfully, even now IF she were in the mood, she would have no problem with such a fantasy.

 

What can you do to get her even interested in talking and discussing sex let alone doing more of it?

 

 

 

Two comments....

1. Changing yourself with the intention of changing her will only lead to frustration. Change yourself with the intention of being a better you and with the intention of perhaps even pleasing OTHER women. (Yes, I said that). This does not mean you will cheat, but doing your change as a way to re-attract your wife will end in maybe a temporary change on her part (as I experienced) or no change. Then you will become who you once were and even be more depressed.

 

2. How do you define "a real man?" And why do you not think you are a real man now?

 

 

 

ONLY if his wife responds to such words in the way that Jeff (or any man) desires. My wife will tell you that I am the above in many ways (and I don't say that with arrogance...I say it because she has told me more than once), yet it does not make her sexually passionate for me at all. I know she deeply loves me as a friend and companion and even as a husband, but her sexual libido has not responded to such measures.

 

 

 

Jeff, please read my response to his question because it may surprise you are much alike we are.... (Lizzie already knows the answer, I think)...

 

I have been married for twenty years this May (Yes, Jeff, just like you) , and this is my first wife (and so far I plan it to be my only wife).

 

 

 

Define why you think the men here are a bunch of pussies and why do you think your description in the first post does not define you as one? How do you think you will separate yourself from the rest of us "pussies" and become a "real man?"

 

Interested to see how your journey works and where it will take you.

 

I'm making this change for me. This is not all about our sex life. I am a man but I know that I could be a better one.

 

I don't understand why some on here view a man that recognizes areas in his life that are less than satisfactory and wants to change these as being weak, or suffocating, or a doormat. This is why I called some of the men on here pussies. That was a bit harsh of me, sorry about that. I am not a doormat because I choose to be faithful to my wife. I am not weak because I want a better me.

 

I'm not expecting for my wife to follow in suit, if she chooses to, then great. I want our marriage to work. If it does not work out, it will hurt me but I will be a better man either way. Either for my wife or for someone else, mainly myself.

[Buttnutter100]

so, butternutter, the man has to be a real man and give the wife multiple orgasms. He should never deny her sex... it's his duty to sexually satisfy his wife... but if the wife refuses him sex, he has to find the reason for this?

 

 

No actually I don't think I said he had to give her "multiple orgasms." (Although if you've got those mad skillz bravo!)

 

I believe I actually said something like: 2 - 3x/week. I picked that number as sort of an "average" that you see tossed around in long-term relationships. People's lives cycle around the rhythms and patterns of the work-week.

 

I mean does 2x a week really seem excessive? Remember we are making the assumption now, that the partners are in an exclusive, committed relationship with each other, and that they want to continue to be in the relationship with each other.

 

In any event 2x/week (or 3x if that) really doesn't seem excessive if both parties are reasonably healthy. I mean that boils down to say once on Saturday night and again on Wednesday.

 

Sex really doesn't take all that long either, and yet it seems we still don't devote sufficient time to it. I think if the partners are properly attuned to each other--and again we are talking long term partners here, I think--I see no reason why a mutually adequate sexual interaction should not be able to occur say in 30 minutes' time or definitely an hours' time. (I understand that ideally there would be more time to devote but sometimes there isn't.) In any case I don't think asking the partners to devote 2 hours a week to trying to sexually satisfy each other is an excessive obligation for something that is so very important to the relationship.

 

Again if people want to do it more than 2 - 3x week then by all means go for it. My point is that if the sexual frequency drops much below 2x a week for an extended period that is a clear sign of a serious relationship problem that NEEDS to be fixed.

 

Also, I didn't say the man should "never" deny sex (although I think a better word is "decline" it, because "denial" implies a deliberate attempt to deprive the partner). Everyone gets stressed out or tired. So if a man has to say "I'm sorry honey I am absolutely beat tonight." Then I think he has to "beware" of a consecutive decline if offered because rightly or wrongly that is going to be taken as a rejection by the spouse.

 

If there is a physical problem limiting sexual activity then that needs to be addressed. Same thing with medical problems. If medical reasons make it impossible to have intercourse then the partners should try to have a physical interaction in which they try other means to satisfy each other. Obviously we are limited to the real world and the realm of the possible.

 

But again...friends, we are talking about 2x/week. Not really a lot, I don't think. Just to maintain a minimal level of healthy sexual interaction. Two hours a week. People spend more time than that watching tv or playing video games or on the internet. Much more time than that.

 

As to the final point, if the wife "refuses" sex, yes, it is the man's obligation to try to find out what the problem is and try to fix it if possible (rather than ignoring it). "Refusal" implies deliberately depriving the partner of the interaction. A healthy sex life is a crucial part of the marital relationship. If either partner fails to recognize this it is a problem in itself but also symptomatic of other issues in the relationship. It is like the canary in the coal mine.

 

Now if there is a practical reason that the wife is refusing sex, i.e., she is too tired, then that can and should be addressed. If it takes her longer to get in the mood, then that can and should be addressed. It MUST be addressed. One way or another.

 

That does not mean the solution will be easy. It could be something as simple as getting a babysitter for the evening. Or, it could be a symptom of psychological issues which might require therapy. Or, it could simply be that the partners have come to take each other for granted and have not sufficiently prioritized the importance of their sexual relationship.

 

Some painful communication probably needs to occur between the partners if lack of sex is an issue in the relationship. Both partners should WANT to receive sexual fulfillment from their partner; in addition, both partners should WANT to provide their partner with sexual fulfillment. This has to be explored.

 

If your partner does not see the importance of being sexually fulfilled by you, or the importance of her effort to sexually fulfill you, and the importance of this to the overall relationship, then communication needs to occur about why those attitudes exist and how they can be addressed in a constructive way.

 

I always thought it was a "given" that one of the reasons people get into exclusive, committed relationships was to have the freedom and pleasure of engaging in sex with the partner. Certainly, men feel that way, and I am sure women know that men feel that way even if women might not have as generally high a libido (although many women certainly do).

 

Therefore if a woman expresses surprise, or lack of interest, in her partner's sexual overtures, then something is seriously wrong in her thought processes about what her relationship is actually supposed to be all about.

[Woggle]

Being faithful in a marriage should be a given from either end so that does not make a man a doormat but a woman should have to earn the kind of treatment you suggest. She should not get it simply becuase she is a woman and she certainly should not get it as a reward for being a witch to her husband and throwing emotional tantrums which is what many men do. If a woman does something genuinely nice for a man or is an all around loving wife then yes a man should treat her this way because she deserves it but if she is cold or unloving towards a man then she should get the same treatment in return.