When The MM Leaves For the OW....

[fooled once]

Umm.. RIGHT HERE!!!

 

 

 

 

" he has only himself to blame."

 

My point is, that you are trying to lay the blame on him for "her emotional state". Really, it doesn't matter if she offs herself or not, we all agree that is her choice. But you are blaming her "emotional state" on him. I propose that if he can take even a small portion of the blame for her emotional state and thereby some small culpability if she decides to throw herself under the nearest Amtrak, then by your own premise, we must lay at least some portion of the blame for his "emotional state" at her feet thereby making her at least somewhat culpable in his affair.. right?

 

You can't have it both ways.. either they are each responsible for the others emotional states, or niether is responsible for the others emotional states. So which is it?

 

FA, she didn't say it was her fault -- she asked was it POSSIBLE. Not the same thing.

[Fallen Angel]

FA, she didn't say it was her fault -- she asked was it POSSIBLE. Not the same thing.

 

No, she said it was the man's fault.. saying that he had no one to blame but himself for his wife's emotional state. I disagree with that, i think that the wife is the only one responsible for her emotional state.

 

But if you are going to lay blame at his feet , then you need to blame the wife for his emotional state as well... why is that so hard for people to grasp??

 

again, you can't have it both ways...

[bentnotbroken]

This is what I said in my initial post.

 

 

A suicide would be her choice, just like having an A was his. He knew what he the consequences would be for cheating, she knows what the consequences would be for suicide

 

 

Then hopeless4u stated;

 

Yes I agree and have said just that but I guess when it comes down to it he just can't, although he is seeing his W's emotional manipulating ways a bit clearer now.

 

I know a lot of what he has told me could be lies but I also know that some of it is truth as his W has confirmed it

 

To which I responded;

 

Is it possible that her emotional state is a product in part to his lying and cheating and he has only himself to blame. The truth would have been so much easier in the long run for everyone. But a lot of people don't have the stomach for the truth. JMO

 

 

And she posted;

 

Again I agree about the truth being better, I was telling him that for 2 yrs as I knew it was only a matter of time before we got caught.

 

Her emotional state has always been a bit shakey, this is not the first time their M has been in trouble, although this is the 1st time it has been due to an A.

 

They have been in and out of MC for 20yrs pretty much. He has been close to leaving a few times before I came along and she has pretty much had mental breakdowns each time. I'm not having a go at her or being nasty towards her state of mind, she really does think that she can not live without him

 

FA, I don't know what you read. Whatever it is, it's your issue not mine. I didn't say he should be blamed for if she chose to commit suicide. But do I think other people have an affect on the emotional state of others, yes and so do most doctors and psychologist. How we love our children affects their emotional state. A person who abuses another physically, emotionally or mentally affects their emotional well being. A rapist affects the emotional well being of his victim. A person who burglarizes a home affects the emotional security of that family. The trauma caused by the bomber on plane Christmas Day affected the emotional well being of the other passengers. And yes, I do view lying and cheating as emotional abuse. Read what you want if it makes you happy. I stand by what I posted.

[jj33]

Its been said here that the OW can't win in the affair or out of it when the MM leaves for her.

 

I can't claim to answer for all posters, but for me, its not about the OW. Its about the MM. It just comes across as if he didn't really try to save his marriage or put any real work into it. Having the affair is the first sign of him not really working on it anymore.

 

This is my opinion. I don't think anyone hates to see an OW "get her man". Its just that "her man" didn't seem to do any real work on fixing his "issues".

 

I know that there ARE some posters that do hate to see an OW "get her man", but I am not one of them.

 

Anyone else want to chime in?

 

NID - if I understand your question - I agree with you I think...

 

Are you really saying if they are done working on the marriage then the marriage should end before they leave. You seem to be questioning why people who arent finished with their marriages (by definition as they are not divorced) are looking for other companionship or feeding their attraction to others instead of ending the marriage and working out their issues and then looking for a new partner.

 

 

I agree in many cases you are correct. Not all but many. The boards are littered with stories of he left we are going to be together but oh no he isnt sure or he may go back, or hes gone back, or he doesnt know what he wants.

 

Its very sad for all involved when that happens. In a majority of cases it seems that a man who starts an affair isnt really looking to leave, if he does and doesnt work on his issues, or doesnt take a break from the OW and really try to work out his issues or repair his marriage, it stands less of a chance of working out between the OW and the MM. As you say he brings his issues with him.

[pureinheart]

It just makes me sick how some people will go to manipulate their spouses, particularly wives. We usually see women stooping this low to get what they want.

 

Sometimes it is true, they are depressed and may even be suicidal but I reckon it is threatened much more than it is real.

 

MM was asked by his counselor to write a list of things he would miss if his W left him or he D'd her. He would miss his adult kids who live on their own and a few of the things his W does around the house. He did not mention ONE THING he would miss about HER.

 

Why would he miss his adult kids if his W left him?????? That would be because she would force him to tell them about me (because she doesn't know about all the others) and she woud try to influence them to disconnect from him. That is selfishness at its worst.

 

I can't stand my exH. He is not paying all that is owed me and I am suffering financially. If I wanted to, I could easily show my kids why I can't give them extras and point the finger at him. Two of my kids call him by his first name because they can't stand him already-he's just so mean. But STILL I do everything I can to encourage them to call him dad and be a part of his life. I have no parents, I know what it's like to not have a dad to call when times are rough or happy so I WILL NOT encourage them to cut their dad off. He was a pretty good father in their formative years and I can't wipe that out just because I don't love him anymore or just because he hurt me.

 

So, BS should not cancel all the years their WS was a great father just because he cheated on HER. Her kids were never affected by his cheating. (I know what you'll say, but they really didn't know so they weren't). The kids should never be dragged into the problems of the M, especially after the kids have moved out.

 

WF...did I write this reply???? It sounds like my story...

 

I know, I suffered financially too as the kids dads never paid child support, but ya know what, I have come out on top...having such lean times taught me many good things. Sometimes the kids heard my frustration concerning their fathers, although I always encouraged them to have a relationship with them...it's hard though when the a**h**** never came to see them, pick them up, nothing...

 

Now they have a half as*ed relationship with their fathers, my kids do not trust them. I do not talk bad about them at all anymore and haven't for quite sometime. My kids come second, third or forth, who knows...

 

My kids and grandkids are my world, I don't understand how their fathers could abandon them and then have the audacity to blame it on me...the kids saw the truth, no one has to say a word, kids are not stupid.

 

SO knew that he would face his ex turning the kids completely against him, although it has not worked. I didn't understand a lot of things and was very angry with SO during the D, but reading these posts help me to see things from the perspective that I should have been following.

 

I took so much personal because I did not understand the manipulation involved. I hope I never totally understand it, as it is evil. Thanks WF for calling a spade a spade.

[pureinheart]

Yes I agree and have said just that but I guess when it comes down to it he just can't, although he is seeing his W's emotional manipulating ways a bit clearer now.

 

I know a lot of what he has told me could be lies but I also know that some of it is truth as his W has confirmed it.

 

Surely there are many variations of people and how they behave and what they say ect....I would say that the majority of what most MM say is the truth. I realise that men can manipulate, although have to say most of the men I know don't say much about anything, so when they finally do communicate on a deep level, it is usually the truth, in fact possibly understating what is really going on.

[anne1707]

But there are also the lies by omission. I know that in my case the ex-OM assumed various things about my marriage because I did not correct him. By doing this, whilst the actual words formulating the lie had not been said, I had certainly allowed the ex-OM to carry on believing something that was not true. So whilst not lying, I was not truthful either.

[OWoman]

NID - if I understand your question - I agree with you I think...

 

Are you really saying if they are done working on the marriage then the marriage should end before they leave. You seem to be questioning why people who arent finished with their marriages (by definition as they are not divorced) are looking for other companionship or feeding their attraction to others instead of ending the marriage and working out their issues and then looking for a new partner.

 

 

I agree in many cases you are correct. Not all but many. The boards are littered with stories of he left we are going to be together but oh no he isnt sure or he may go back, or hes gone back, or he doesnt know what he wants.

 

Its very sad for all involved when that happens. In a majority of cases it seems that a man who starts an affair isnt really looking to leave, if he does and doesnt work on his issues, or doesnt take a break from the OW and really try to work out his issues or repair his marriage, it stands less of a chance of working out between the OW and the MM. As you say he brings his issues with him.

 

I would agree that in most cases, MMs are not looking for a D when they commence an A. Usually, I'd guess, they are looking for A SIGN, something to point them in the right direction of What The Should Do Next. If it was as simple as wanting out of the M, chances are they'd do it... but they're not sure that it is that simple. After all, there are kids, there are assets, there is history, family, social networks and all manner of intertwinements to consider. Rupturing all that for something that might prove to be something else isn't too tempting. They first want to be sure...

 

Most of the time, though, I think it's nowhere near as articulate as even that. Something is amiss... They wake up in the morning, stare at the mirror and thing, is this it? Is this all there is to life? I grew up with all those hopes and dreams... for this? They look around at the familiar scene, feeling stifled by its familiarity, reduced to their role and desperate for change. Any change! (but... not too big... nor too sudden... nor, not of their choosing or their making. They want CONTROLLED change. Chaos is as threatening as familiarity.)

 

It may be low-grade depression. It may be midlife issues. It may be provoked by insecurity, complacency, or a myriad other triggers - but it forces a reevaluation and the inevitable comparison with the idealised self, and that mug staring back out of the mirror. And with it, a growing vulnerability to having those unacknowledged, often unexpressed, needs met from somewhere else - an A.

 

Sometimes an A can point to the dormant needs and help the MM to express them, face them, acknowledge them and resolve them - either within the M, or through its termination. Sometimes they're just too big and too scary and far easier to sweep under the rug, ignoring them until they can no longer be ignored - in the same, or next, R. Either way, until they're addressed and resolved, they won't go away, whatever face he paints onto the body he wakes up next to in bed.

 

But dealing with HIS issues alone isn't always sufficient - sometimes there are real, objective issues in the M (either because of, or causing, or in some dialectical dance of death with, his personal issues) that no amount of IC or individual psychological work can resolve. Unless both parties are prepared to make the necessary changes - assuming the changes required are in synch with the personal growth requirements of both parties - his own growth to wellness is not going to save the M. In fact, if the M is toxic, his own wellness will doom it to extinction, since he will no longer be willing or able to contribute to the toxic dynamic it requires to survive.

[Brokenlady]

Its been said here that the OW can't win in the affair or out of it when the MM leaves for her.

 

This is definitely the truth. There is just such tremendous baggage attached to the A-dynamic.

 

I can't claim to answer for all posters, but for me, its not about the OW. Its about the MM. It just comes across as if he didn't really try to save his marriage or put any real work into it. Having the affair is the first sign of him not really working on it anymore.

 

This is my opinion. I don't think anyone hates to see an OW "get her man". Its just that "her man" didn't seem to do any real work on fixing his "issues".

 

 

In my case, xDM did not put any reall effort into saving his M. He has a lot of guilt about the fact that he didn't "do everything possible" to save the M before having an A. His xW asked to go to M-counseling long before the A. But things were in trouble right from the beginning. They went to a weekend M retreat 10 years before the affair and even she acknowledged to me that it was a waste of time. I think that by the time the A happened, he already knew there was no fixing what was broken - because he shouldn't have marriedher in the 1st place. Their personalities simply were never going to mesh.

 

I guess I didn't care all that much about his lack of effort because I understood that it wouldn't have mattered. I had a similar situation in my marriage - there were things my xH couldn't change even if he wanted to and over time these things bothered me more an more. Coupled with the things he could have changed and didn't want to, I didn't see the point in continuing. Perhaps then I projected with xDM, but it really sounded so basically similar that I didn't much question his desire to not try with his xW.

 

Once the A began, the idea of fixing things with his xW was out of the question. He simply was not willing to give me up in order to fix the marriage, and he really didn't want me to think he had any desire to stay with his xW (because he told me he was leaving her). During the beginning of the A he gave some thought to ending it with me and working on the M - but he never ever voiced those doubts to me and evidently he never acted on those second thoughts.

 

Prior to his leaving his xW, he started IC. He knew he had big issues to deal with. He continued in IC for years and although things improved, he never resolved his "split" between love and duty. Given his investment in therapy, I had good reason to think he was trying to fic himself and I wasn't really concerned about him cheating on me. Further, he and I went to couples counseling. So clearly, he was exerting effort to keep our realtionship. And, in fact, that really burned his xW up - I know it bothered her that he was going to couples counseling with me when he'd refused to go with her. Can't say I blame her.

 

So, in sum, the fact that he didn't work on his M didn't indicate that he ducked out on responsibility, it indicated rather how bad the M really was. It didn't show me that he wasn't willing to do hard work, because he was trying to show me that he was willing to do the hard work in our relationship. Everyone's situation is different, so I don't think it really makes sense to say that a MM shows that he's not willing to do the hard work simply because he decides to leave a M. It really depends on the people involved and the situation.

[OWoman]

So, in sum, the fact that he didn't work on his M didn't indicate that he ducked out on responsibility, it indicated rather how bad the M really was. It didn't show me that he wasn't willing to do hard work, because he was trying to show me that he was willing to do the hard work in our relationship. Everyone's situation is different, so I don't think it really makes sense to say that a MM shows that he's not willing to do the hard work simply because he decides to leave a M. It really depends on the people involved and the situation.

 

Absolutely.

[NoIDidn't]

NID - if I understand your question - I agree with you I think...

 

Are you really saying if they are done working on the marriage then the marriage should end before they leave. You seem to be questioning why people who arent finished with their marriages (by definition as they are not divorced) are looking for other companionship or feeding their attraction to others instead of ending the marriage and working out their issues and then looking for a new partner.

 

Yes! This is the way it was said to me by many previous MM IRL. This subset of MM seemed to be questioning why they looked for additional companionship instead of dealing with the issues.

 

And the issues may NOT have been theirs, as has been repeated many times here. But if its in his marriage, I believe, and so did these guys, that they have a (uh-oh, bad word coming) "duty" to help work on those issues too.

 

I've been thinking about this a lot, not in relation to any affair or infidelity, at all, in fact. I've been thinking about why marriages are so hard to repair. I'm far from blaming the guys for the failures of their previous marriages when they choose to leave for someone else - although their cheating doesn't make it hard not to blame them for those that do that kind of thing. Reading further ahead in the thread, the posts by Broken and OWoman really got to the heart of what I was thinking: familiarity.

 

There is so much water under the bridge in a marriage. So many things to lead one to think that the marriage isn't worth saving. So many things to indicate that one or the other partner just refuses to change. Resentment is really a horrible thing once it sinks in. It does more damage to a marital relationship than Infidelity does, IMO.

[OWoman]

Resentment is really a horrible thing once it sinks in. It does more damage to a marital relationship than Infidelity does' date=' IMO.[/quote']

 

Agreed

[silktricks]

Oh, I agree. I tend to feel that the MM just isn't working on his marriage and that in and of itself is sad to me.

 

I think at least many MM don't work on their marriage because then they would need to face the fact that they have a part in the problems of the marriage. Having an affair seems easier, because the OW (newly in love) will not see the same issues. ---- I'm not saying that this is consciously thought out, though.

Edited February 1, 2010 by silktricks

[White Flower]

Resentment is really a horrible thing once it sinks in. It does more damage to a marital relationship than Infidelity does' date=' IMO.[/quote']

Asolutely. This was the reason MC would not work on my exH. He would have lived with resentment forever but I could not.

 

I'm just amazed that MM's W does not seem to feel resentment. As far as I know she has caught him having three 'EA's. I guess his gaslighting tricks are just that good.

[NoIDidn't]

So, what about the MM's wife? Is she not to be held responsible as well? Of course it was HIS choice to cheat. Maybe she did'nt listen to his needs. Maybe she ignored the fact that there was a problem with their relationship. Maybe she fell out of love or was caught up in life with the whole family deal and felt overwhelmed. Maybe she did not feel sexy anymore. Maybe HE is just an as*hole.

 

To seek emotional or sexual validation outside of marriage can only further destroy said relationship. Show some honor for yourself. Ask for a divorce then move on with another single person.

 

Jeff, you still around?

 

I can't make heads or tails of the bolded part. It makes perfect sense, but I don't know the intended audience. Is it a general statement? Or is it in response to me since you quoted me when making it?

 

Just asking for clarification, since I am not a MM.

 

And in regards to the BW, I wasn't concerned with her in this thread. That's why it specifically asks about the MM. Actually I was asking for all opinions on why some people don't like it when the MM leaves for the OW. And some good ones have been discussed.

[NoIDidn't]

This thread has been a really good read, as the man I'm with is dealing with so much crap because of the impending divorce and the fallout from all of it. The STBXW is giving him so much grief and he is dealing with guilt, fault, blame and probably another hundred emotions that I'm not privy to.

 

It goes without saying that it's been very hard for me also and sometimes I confess I have the urge to just throw my hands up and say....this is too hard and I'm sure he sometimes feels the same. I won't do that but it's just hard.

 

It's good for others to see this side and the other views presented in this thread. Fairy tales and wine and roses it ain't!

 

I'm glad this thread is helping you. I apologize for the scruffy beginning. I'm not very good in my wording sometimes and other posters are usually pretty quick to point out any unwritten assumptions for an agenda of sorts.

 

It was just for conversation. I can't imagine what you are going through in your sitch now, considering your A was over before he divorced. But I imagine some of this is still relevant as you mention he is dealing with "guilt". Truth is, he'd be dealing with guilt, and all those other emotions regardless of whether or not you and he had had an EA before. Its the nature of divorce. Its the end of an era. A dream that died. Its a tough time to go through, infidelity or not.

[GreenEyedLady]

Actually I was asking for all opinions on why some people don't like it when the MM leaves for the OW. And some good ones have been discussed.

 

I actually think some people don't like it because it makes them realize their R is just as fragile. And they don't like thinking that til death til we part might actually be until I find someone else. It makes what they felt was secure, insecure. And nobody likes to feel that way.

 

GEL

[NoIDidn't]

I actually think some people don't like it because it makes them realize their R is just as fragile. And they don't like thinking that til death til we part might actually be until I find someone else. It makes what they felt was secure, insecure. And nobody likes to feel that way.

 

GEL

 

I agree, but does that mean that your marriage is now just as fragile? Just asking, definitely not trying to argue. I think marriage is a fragile institution to begin with. Its all that "water under the bridge", the familiarity that can breed contempt. An OW is generally the least of our worries, if we are honest.

 

I was talking to a girlfriend who knows that in the past her H was a serial cheat, in fact she was one of his OW before they got married. She felt that an OW "cheats" her way into marriage by not dating a single guy. Don't get me wrong, she held the MM responsible for stepping out on his previous M, but she couldn't quite shake her feelings of the OW marrying the guy as cheating the dating game somehow. I can't explain it. I didn't agree or disagree. I found it another interesting perspective though. Especially coming from her given her background.

[GreenEyedLady]

I agree' date=' but does that mean that your marriage is now just as fragile? Just asking, definitely not trying to argue. I think marriage is a fragile institution to begin with. Its all that "water under the bridge", the familiarity that can breed contempt. An OW is generally the least of our worries, if we are honest.[/quote']

 

Marriage IS fragile. We make a choice as married partners to either nurture or starve our marriage. If both partners nurture it and put the other first, then your M will grow. If one or the other starves it, then it will wither. That doesn't always mean the M will end, just that it will be unsatisfying to one (or most of the time) both partners.

 

We are our worst enemies, I agree. I don't think it's familiarity, per se, but taking for granted our mates and vice versa.

 

Love can grow or fade. We choose it's fate.

 

GEL

[OWoman]

she couldn't quite shake her feelings of the OW marrying the guy as cheating the dating game somehow.

 

Like dating is somehow a good thing? I'd rather be kidnapped by meth-crazed accountants and dissected with dental instruments before being sauteed in boiling earwax than go on a date :sick:

[Fallen Angel]

Like dating is somehow a good thing? I'd rather be kidnapped by meth-crazed accountants and dissected with dental instruments before being sauteed in boiling earwax than go on a date :sick:

 

LMAOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Excuse me while I get a rag to clean the coffee from my screen and keyboard. This was great!!!! (and I totally agree!)

[2sure]

If an affair is an "Exit Affair" ...its just one of the results of a marriage that was already over for one or both partners. Some people just dont have the motivation or courage to leave until they have another partner. One can hardly blame the OW although she is an easy target for a BS.

 

But you can tell an exit affair right away for what it is. A regular affair, one that is just an extra...rarely turns into a successful exit. Can we blame OW for not knowing the difference? Sure.

[OWoman]

But you can tell an exit affair right away for what it is. A regular affair, one that is just an extra...rarely turns into a successful exit. Can we blame OW for not knowing the difference? Sure.

 

I'd be interested in HOW one can supposedly tell.

 

I've had a number of As, each time going for the same kind of guy (happily M, never before considered - or had - an A, not wanting anything apart from some crash-hot sex from the A) and there was NO WAY I could tell in advance which of them were going to go all loopy on me, wanting me to have their babies and set up a nice picket-fenced home with them Some left their Ms, others didn't. If there had been any real, reliable, foolproof way of knowing who was the leaving type and who wasn't, I'd have been onto it for sure.

[2sure]

I dont know what to tell you, I have no special abilities...but when I was seeing married men, I would specifically avoid affairs with those who seemed like they were looking to get out of their marriage. And I could tell, yes. Even those who I did have affairs with that became all lovey dovey, what if, etc etc...I knew they were just talking, not seriously considering leaving. If I knew the difference, it just cant be that hard.

[Brokenlady]

I dont know what to tell you, I have no special abilities...but when I was seeing married men, I would specifically avoid affairs with those who seemed like they were looking to get out of their marriage. And I could tell, yes. Even those who I did have affairs with that became all lovey dovey, what if, etc etc...I knew they were just talking, not seriously considering leaving. If I knew the difference, it just cant be that hard.

 

Maybe the MM you were seeing were just easier to read. Maybe they were lousy liars or just more transparent in general. Maybe you have a degree of cynicism or keen insight that allowed you to see what some starry-eyed OW cannot. It could be lots of things that accounted for your ability to "just know", but I don't think it's quite fair to blame OW for not seeing what "should" be obvious.

 

People have a tendency towards hindsight bias - to see things in retrospect as incredibly obvious that were not at the time. It's been well-documented, and I suspect it may apply in this case.